It's *because* of the very solid points you just illustrated that you could do it with a single Triumph. It's there for narrative effect.

Who in the *fuck* is going to go toe-to-toe with a Super-Star Destroyer? Now I can see that in terms of having the Executor being in the scene raining down destruction and the GM using that as an environmental setback. Unless the PC's are in direct control over the capital-ships or they're balls-out crazy, it's destined for backdrop fun.

Edit: Who *DIDN'T* say "WHOA!" when that scene hit the screen?

Quote from: tenbones;942852It's *because* of the very solid points you just illustrated that you could do it with a single Triumph. It's there for narrative effect.

Who in the *fuck* is going to go toe-to-toe with a Super-Star Destroyer? Now I can see that in terms of having the Executor being in the scene raining down destruction and the GM using that as an environmental setback. Unless the PC's are in direct control over the capital-ships or they're balls-out crazy, it's destined for backdrop fun.

Edit: Who *DIDN'T* say "WHOA!" when that scene hit the screen?

The explosion was impressive, but at the same time, I thought "takes out the bridge, ok maybe, causes a nosedive into the Death Star...I dunno that was kinda stupid".  Then as we got to, what Palpatine called "his finest troops" being taken out with rocks and spears thrown by Shih-Tzu's, while Chewie does the "Tarzan Yell" I realized we were in full-blown cartoon-land, and just hoped they'd get the camera back on Luke as soon as possible, because the rest was edging towards unwatchable by comparison.

But, if a single Triumph lets you take out the Executor with an A-wing can you really tell me that the narrative aspect doesn't trump all in this system?

Let's be clear here, heh. There is a *huge* difference between the conceits of the movie vs. how *I* run my SW-games. I'm just using the system to justify the silly dramatic shit in the movies as an example.

What a Triumph as a narrative element is represented to you, me, someone else is the subjective part based on what kinda game you're running. My SW games are pretty fucking gritty. I don't have a lot of Force users, I play in the Old Republic - lots of Mercs, Bounty Hunters, Pirates, Killers, Thieves, smugglin, skullduggin, Imperial spies and shit like that. I honestly don't care at all for the modern movie-era of the setting.

I ignore it completely. I suppose the litmus test for Triumphs for me are based on the scale of the encounter. Bigger the stakes/scale - the bigger the effect.

Edit: If Return of the Jedi were one of my campaigns - The Death Star II would blown up, the Emperor would have died. Darth Vader would have died. Thrawn would have arrived, took command and fucking genocided the Ewoks and killed all the rebels anyhow.

Quote from: estar;942706Me to the Storygame designer: I played Star Fleet Battles and learned how to use MCIDS from rule E6 to defeat plasma torpedoes.. I puzzled out the intricacies of rule 29.5 in the Universe RPG. Your game rules has a the same stench and just as fucking obsessed with mechanics.

Except that in Universe alot of that mechanics is front loaded. Once you know parts of the steps you dont need to again.

Example: Paint Gun (my favourite) range to hits and terrain mod are all front loaded. To I know at range 12 I have a base 10 to hit with terrain mod of 4. Say we are on Barren Flat terrain then we know thats a level 2 so the to hit is a measly 2% + 9 for for skill 3 which is also allways known. So to hit of 11%.

Its not as complex as you make it out to be. Which is rather funny as Universe is a very robust system and has one of the most complex chargens. But it also front loads alot of stuff during chargen.

Quote from: CRKrueger;942851The problem, of course, with the example is there is literally, no chance, Zero, of an A-wing taking out the Executor.

Someone wanted to film a giant arrow plowing into a Death Star so we get the A-wing fiasco.  That's it.

Even for a narrative system, that's a bit much, unless you're playing satirically. Maybe if you rolled 7 Triumphs.

I allways viewed it as the A-Wing hit the bridge and cause some sort of catastrophic navigation failure resulting in the lawn dart. Or blew the lifters and gravity did the rest. Possibly both.

The books though love to point out that there was rampant sabotage of the designs of all manner of Imperial equipment introducing tiny little exploitable flaws. Or just shoddy cost cutting and slave labour introducing unforeseen flaws.

What seems a bit odd still though is the Executor instantly pitches over and lawn darts. Which leads to my personal assumption nav and or lift failed spectacularly.

Quote from: tenbones;942852It's there for Who in the *fuck* is going to go toe-to-toe with a Super-Star Destroyer?

I can think of three people in my own Star Wars game.

So, if there were, say, droid-piloted kamikaze A-Wings, how many kamikaze collisions would it take to destroy one ISD by generic damage? (Of course, perhaps many others would be shot down by TIE fighters or ISD weapons before hitting.)

I ask because it surprises me. My impression was that you could probably crash a hundred or more fighters into an ISD and there would be no chance of actually destroying it, as it looks like a big wedge of massive armor and weapons, so I'd expect only damage to whatever fighter-sized thing was hit. I'd expect the results to be entirely about hit location, and needing something like in ROTJ to really take one out of action.

Quote from: tenbones;942852It's *because* of the very solid points you just illustrated that you could do it with a single Triumph. It's there for narrative effect.

Who in the *fuck* is going to go toe-to-toe with a Super-Star Destroyer? Now I can see that in terms of having the Executor being in the scene raining down destruction and the GM using that as an environmental setback. Unless the PC's are in direct control over the capital-ships or they're balls-out crazy, it's destined for backdrop fun.

See I'd say that should depend on what the actual odds are. If one fighter crash could do it, then I'd expect droid kamikaze squadrons, as I assume fighters are ridiculously more expendable than ISDs. If they're not, then ISDs turn into things that are supposed to seem super tough, but really are not. Then instead of awesome enemies to face, you really have lame enemies, and the glorious adventures turn out to be just par for the course.

QuoteEdit: Who *DIDN'T* say "WHOA!" when that scene hit the screen?

As I recall, I was surprised and may have thought "whoa... really?" but also thought "well that's pretty silly - it wasn't anywhere near the Death Star!"

Just trying to remember, wasn't the shields down on the ISD?  Weren't the commanders, being overconfident until they saw the poor guy barreling at them, screaming to raise the shields?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;942949Just trying to remember, wasn't the shields down on the ISD?  Weren't the commanders, being overconfident until they saw the poor guy barreling at them, screaming to raise the shields?

They blew up the Executors bridge deflector shield. The captain orders to focus forward fire to protect. But too late as seconds later the A-Wing smacks into it.

Quote from: Skarg;942941So, if there were, say, droid-piloted kamikaze A-Wings, how many kamikaze collisions would it take to destroy one ISD by generic damage? (Of course, perhaps many others would be shot down by TIE fighters or ISD weapons before hitting.)

I ask because it surprises me. My impression was that you could probably crash a hundred or more fighters into an ISD and there would be no chance of actually destroying it, as it looks like a big wedge of massive armor and weapons, so I'd expect only damage to whatever fighter-sized thing was hit. I'd expect the results to be entirely about hit location, and needing something like in ROTJ to really take one out of action.

In the battle they show a couple of times fighters crashing into regular star destroyers to no effect.

The A-wing smacks into the bridge the Rebels just blew the shield off of and then see my comments earlier on thoughts of whatever happened to the systems to cause it to promptly pitch over and fall. Re-watching the scene I am getting to really think that the lifts were blown out and the Executor lawn darted due to gravity. Possibly add in loss of nav or other factors.

The main point is that it was a very unlikely chain of events in quick succession. The equivalent of a critical on a d100. Followed by something REALLY important, possibly several, blowing out from said critical.

Otherwise they probably could have smacked fighters into it or a regular destroyer all day and probably just dent it up some. If even that.

Quote from: Omega;942965In the battle they show a couple of times fighters crashing into regular star destroyers to no effect.

Yep.

QuoteThe A-wing smacks into the bridge the Rebels just blew the shield off of and then see my comments earlier on thoughts of whatever happened to the systems to cause it to promptly pitch over and fall. Re-watching the scene I am getting to really think that the lifts were blown out and the Executor lawn darted due to gravity. Possibly add in loss of nav or other factors.

It moves really quickly considering it's size and that they're only near a small moon and a smaller Death Star. I can see that speed being due to the Star Wars style artificial gravity (and/or ship hover) system completely malfunctioning, though it seems like it'd need to be Force magic and/or sabotage and/or mega-incompetence to have that be a possible result of one bridge blowing up on a ship that size. Even a 1/100 chance of that happening seems a bit much considering how enormous that thing is.

But even if the ship were spinning out of control, it doesn't look to me like before the loss of control it was anywhere near close enough to the Death Star to randomly crash into it like that (or to fall by the DS's gravity onto it). It reminds me a bit of accidents in CHiPs where a sudden lapse of safety leads to cars flying through the air and exploding.

QuoteThe main point is that it was a very unlikely chain of events in quick succession. The equivalent of a critical on a d100. Followed by something REALLY important, possibly several, blowing out from said critical.

Otherwise they probably could have smacked fighters into it or a regular destroyer all day and probably just dent it up some. If even that.

That's what I thought too, and why I was asking about the standard damage amounts for crashing a fighter into one.

Quote from: Omega;942964They blew up the Executors bridge deflector shield. The captain orders to focus forward fire to protect. But too late as seconds later the A-Wing smacks into it.

OK, that's what I remembered.  Which is why my young mine accepted it.

So basically four things happen in quick succession.
1: Rebels blow out the bridge shields.
2: Seconds later an A-wing gets its drive and/or nav hit and loses control.
3: The A-Wing careens into the unprotected bridge purely by chance.
4: It causes some sort of catastrophic systems failure that blows out the lift for sure and probably the nav as well. Causing it to fall and lawn dart.

This can and actually did happen to me in Star Frontiers. My battleship took a hit that took out the ICM system. A fighter that was buzzing us got clipped and had its ADR taken out so its got no way of slowing now. Fighter pilot says screw this and decides to ram. So has to to make a roll to line it up otherwise will miss due to SF space combat distances being a-lot larger. Beats my dodge roll and smacks into my Battleship. It is a mere 1d10 damage to my ship with 120. But just happens to nail Navigation which takes out all maneuvering and my Battleship promptly swerves into the planet I had just initiated orbit around for a slingshot maneuver. (Losing Nav meant the ship might turn randomly and sure enough that is what happened.)

I love Star Frontiers. Even when the damage table hates me. :cool:

So can the system old or new allow for freakish things like that? Pretty sure WEG and FFG both can. Not sure about the others?

I have a question as I do plan to run an SW game soon, and I am torn between WEG's 1e and FFG - which one has better, in your opinion, starship combat? By better in this question I mean more modular, yet still accessible starship design too I guess.

From the little experience I had it is a toss up since the systems are so different.

If you can find then I believe it was Tramp Traders for WEG and Starships of the Galaxy for d20 had ship construction rules and I thought the ship combat in the WEG version was good when I GMed it way back. I've been told D6 Space Ships is backwards compatible with WEG SW. But havent seen so cant verify. The FFG version I didnt see any ship combat as a player so cant really say. There is ship construction rules though. There were two things I was interested in seeing. But unfortunately neither happened in the session.