I have a friend who's thinking of picking this up, so I figure I'll pass on some questions, I know we have a couple veterans here.
1. Compatibility - How similar are the systems? If you can, specifically compare to the FFG 40k where Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader and Deathwatch characters didn't quite line up on the same scale/use the same modifiers, etc.
2. Economic Simulationism - Are the doodads of the setting concrete or abstract? On a scale of 1-10, where 10 would be Gurps: Far Trader, how concrete is buying and selling stuff?
3. Engineering Simulationism - Outfitting/modifying/repairing your starship/droid/speeder whatever. Can you illegally modify your Blastech-DL44 and Corellian YT-1300 like Han did? On a scale of 1-10, where 10 would be Gurps: Vehicles or Traveller: Fusion, Fire and Steel how is the equipment customization.
4. Space Travel - Do they cover Fuel/Hyperspace that kind of stuff? Do you run out of fuel only if you roll a critical failure on a Hyperspace roll or some weird abstract/narrative crap? On a scale of 1-10 where 10 is, I guess Gurps/Traveller again, where is Space Travel?
5. Starmaps - How well do they chart out the Star Wars Universe, and is there a single resource, or is it kind of all over the place in adventures, etc? If you want to 1-10 this one, I guess travellermap.com is an 11?
6. Narrative Nonsense - What kinds of OOC mechanics are floating around? Any meta-currencies?
The whole reason FFGSW is looking attractive to him is because there's a ton of source material and adventures to splice together. The one thing he doesn't have time for right now is to take everything from the Star Wars technical readouts and convert to some system and he doesn't want to just take general space stuff and handwave it all as Star Wars (where everyone everywhere is using like 1 of 4 different blasters for example).
I gave him a pdf of d6 REUP, but he was asking me about FFGSW so here we go.
Quote from: CRKrueger;941099I have a friend who's thinking of picking this up, so I figure I'll pass on some questions, I know we have a couple veterans here.
1. Compatibility - How similar are the systems? If you can, specifically compare to the FFG 40k where Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader and Deathwatch characters didn't quite line up on the same scale/use the same modifiers, etc.
They line up perfectly. You can have a Shi-Cho Jedi Knight with a Rebel Pilot and Bounty Hunter on the same team and all of them will be pretty 'even'.
Quote from: CRKrueger;9410992. Economic Simulationism - Are the doodads of the setting concrete or abstract? On a scale of 1-10, where 10 would be Gurps: Far Trader, how concrete is buying and selling stuff?
Not sure I understand this question, but the system uses Credits as prices for every piece of gear.
Quote from: CRKrueger;9410993. Engineering Simulationism - Outfitting/modifying/repairing your starship/droid/speeder whatever. Can you illegally modify your Blastech-DL44 and Corellian YT-1300 like Han did? On a scale of 1-10, where 10 would be Gurps: Vehicles or Traveller: Fusion, Fire and Steel how is the equipment customization.
Each book in the Edge of Empire series that I have, and the core book for Force and Destiny, all have customization options with costs and how it takes place in the oddly abstract encumberance system.
Quote from: CRKrueger;9410994. Space Travel - Do they cover Fuel/Hyperspace that kind of stuff? Do you run out of fuel only if you roll a critical failure on a Hyperspace roll or some weird abstract/narrative crap? On a scale of 1-10 where 10 is, I guess Gurps/Traveller again, where is Space Travel?
Space travel moves at the speed of Plot, and like ammo blasters, only happens if it would be interesting for the game. And both Players and GM should understand that. Er, they DO give how much time getting from point A to B, often in Days or Weeks, but nothing super defined.
Quote from: CRKrueger;9410995. Starmaps - How well do they chart out the Star Wars Universe, and is there a single resource, or is it kind of all over the place in adventures, etc? If you want to 1-10 this one, I guess travellermap.com is an 11?
The Starmaps aren't super detailed, at least the ones I have. A flaw. But they do show one in the Edge of Empire corebook, I think. My copy is buried behind me, and I can't reach it at the moment. Gimme a few to confirm.
I stand corrected, the Edge of Empire book has a VERY detailed star map of the known Galaxy, with trade routes and hyperlanes explained and listed. Pages 328-329 in my copy.
Quote from: CRKrueger;9410996. Narrative Nonsense - What kinds of OOC mechanics are floating around? Any meta-currencies?
Only one meta currency, and that's Force Points, BUT they're not all that invasive, they only occur when one side uses their version (players get Light Side, DM's get Dark Side.) And it's randomly rolled at the beginning of each session. BUt they can be removed relatively easily in MY experience.
Quote from: CRKrueger;941099The whole reason FFGSW is looking attractive to him is because there's a ton of source material and adventures to splice together. The one thing he doesn't have time for right now is to take everything from the Star Wars technical readouts and convert to some system and he doesn't want to just take general space stuff and handwave it all as Star Wars (where everyone everywhere is using like 1 of 4 different blasters for example).
I gave him a pdf of d6 REUP, but he was asking me about FFGSW so here we go.
The FFG books reuse (even lightly) a lot of the old WEG stuff. Like in Edge of Empires, the Bounty Hunter guilds, right down to the names, both guild and any important people, as well as what their area of specialty is, which were pulled from the WEG Bounty Hunter supplement (I still have that book, and it's pretty damn close.) And that's in the core book.
7. So you never run out of fuel, ammo, etc. unless it's some form of Dramatic Complication as dictated by the Funky Dice? I think that might spike the idea right there.
8. Aren't there Destiny Points or something like that? What can you do with them? Reroll with them, Get Out of Death Free, add a Corporate Sector Blaster Carbine behind the bar?
9. Ok, so maybe they don't have maps, but what about Hyperspace Routes? I remember the WEG stuff at least listing known routes for popular systems, do they go that deep into it?
Oooo...I forgot about this one...abstract range bands. Nevermind, stick in the fork in FFGSW, it's done. He hates that more than I do, if that's even possible.
Ok, moving on to d20 and d6, what are the classic "This is why people don't pick these systems" for each.
Quote from: CRKrueger;9411057. So you never run out of fuel, ammo, etc. unless it's some form of Dramatic Complication as dictated by the Funky Dice? I think that might spike the idea right there.
Sadly, yes. But it's meant (and again, I'm not trying to justify this, but rather explain what the writers went with this) to simulate how it happened in the movies. Also, back in the WEG days, blasters of all sizes had ungodly amounts of ammo capacity, so running out of shots was nigh impossible.
Quote from: CRKrueger;9410998. Aren't there Destiny Points or something like that? What can you do with them? Reroll with them, Get Out of Death Free, add a Corporate Sector Blaster Carbine behind the bar?
Oh, right. Sorry, my table calls them Force Points. The can't be used as a Death Free card. but the Blaster Carbine Behind the Bar, yes. They can also be used to boost checks by players, or create complications by GMs.
Quote from: CRKrueger;9410999. Ok, so maybe they don't have maps, but what about Hyperspace Routes? I remember the WEG stuff at least listing known routes for popular systems, do they go that deep into it?
I was wrong, and I corrected myself, the EoTE core book has a two page spread detailing planets and routes. And the supplements for that line (which I've got the most of) every planet they list, mentions a hyper lane and what it's connected to.
Destiny Points are also used to fuel certain Talents, some of which are fairly normal (e.g., add more damage to an attack) while others are heavily narrative. There are also Signature Abilities for each character Career. These are a mix of high-end abilities, but some of them are majorly scene-altering narrative overwrites.
There is some exceptions to never running out of ammo. Expendables--like grenades and proton torpedoes--still are tracked traditionally and require spending credits to replenish (when/where available), but blaster charges are not tracked. Fuel for ships is a part of a rather abstracted "Consumables" rating.
Star Wars d20 stinks worse than three feet up Jabba the Hutt's ass. (Many Bothans died to bring us this information.)
Seriously, there is NOTHING good about it. Too fucking complicated and it makes no damn sense, and many of the rules simply don't do what they say they do. You could get a better Star Wars rule set by shitting on a piece of typing paper.
I'll follow this with interest. I picked up FFE Star Wars but so far it has defeated me. It is pretty much telephone book sized, and most of that is rules.
Quote from: CRKrueger;941106Oooo...I forgot about this one...abstract range bands. Nevermind, stick in the fork in FFGSW, it's done. He hates that more than I do, if that's even possible.
Ok, moving on to d20 and d6, what are the classic "This is why people don't pick these systems" for each.
Systemwise, d20 is indeed too crunchy. The Saga edition was supposed to be a slimmed down version, but I don't know if that even remotely cured the d20 version of its warts. The D6 version's only big issue is that it's not in print and if you're going for used books, some of the pricing would make even a Sith Lord crap his armored pants.
With regard to the system, the only big complaint I've heard with D6 is that Jedi start out pretty much ineffective and if they survive and learn, they wind up becoming superheroes. To be honest, D6 is the only version I would use for Star Wars as using d6s make an RPG for a well-known property very accessible.
If your friend wants helpful hacks and house rules, he can certainly find help over at the Rancor Pit (http://rancorpit.com/), which has brought us conversions of all the d20 stuff back to d6. Lots of other stuff can be found at the d6 Holocron (http://d6holocron.com), and Gary Astleford's Rebellion site (http://www.verminary.com/rebellion/) too. One final link of interest is Peter Schweighofer's Dueling Blades system (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3GzfZrhkRBFYVVMb0NPa1lvR0E/view?usp=sharing), which cuts through the muss and fuss of lightsaber duels and melee in general.
Not to blow my own horn, but I do have a wiki/blog for my own campaign (http://knightsquadron.blogspot.com/) up and includes notes on which bits from each ediiton I'm using, as well as any house rules.
Overall, stick with D6 and use the other books for the fluff. I hope this helps your friend make a decision so he can run an awesome campaign!
Harl
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;941129Star Wars d20 stinks
Avoid FFG Star Wars then.
It uses the funky dice and an odd sort of narrative twist. Heres a few examples. Remember to make your sanity save after, r before, or both...
(https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/StarWarsRPG/edge-of-the-empire/core-book/dice-system/SWE01-dicepool.jpg)
One problem with FFGs Star Wars is the usual FFG problem that they love to section rules up to make you buy books you might not otherwise have. This isnt cases of "hey! Neet new idea! Lets drop it in the next supplement!" No. This is design from the start.
The core games perfectly playable. But theres stuff in the other books that really feel like they should have been in the main. Others not so much. YMMV of course on whats vital and not.
Id suggest researching the hell out of FFG:SW before buying.
The other problem I see is the cost. To get the whole game you are going to possibly be dropping a few hundred bucks as their stuff tends not to be cheap and I've not seen it on reliable discount like all the 5e stuff has been.
Then theres the narrative fuled dice mechanic. If you have any players who have trouble with icons then this game is going to be potentially hell for them. My main complaint here is some of the icons are too simmilar. Which doesnt help. But if you can grock the system it flows fairly ok. Just not my thing personally.
LOL wow... narrative dice with symbols... those examples speak volumes. (running away)
Quote from: Omega;941141One problem with FFGs Star Wars is the usual FFG problem that they love to section rules up to make you buy books you might not otherwise have. This isnt cases of "hey! Neet new idea! Lets drop it in the next supplement!" No. This is design from the start.
The core games perfectly playable. But there's stuff in the other books that really feel like they should have been in the main. Others not so much. YMMV of course on whats vital and not.
I'd suggest researching the hell out of FFG:SW before buying.
I think it's a combination of wanting to sell tons of books as well as waiting for Disney/Lucasfilm to approve things. I know the approval process for WEG's version of the game was rough and it didn't get any easier with the d20 versions.
Quote from: Omega;941141The other problem I see is the cost. To get the whole game you are going to possibly be dropping a few hundred bucks as their stuff tends not to be cheap and I've not seen it on reliable discount like all the 5e stuff has been.
The cost was one thing which really turned me off with FFG's version. To help CRKrueger and his friend, let's take a look at the prices as they appear on FFG's site. Items in red are out of stock.
The Force AwakensSpoiler
Beginner Game - $29.95
Spoiler
Beginner Game - $29.95
Core Rulebook - $59.95
GM's Kit - $19.95
Adventures
Beyond the Rim - $29.95
The Jewel of Yavin - $29.95
Mask of the Pirate Queen - $29.95
Supplements
Enter the Unknown - $29.95
Suns of Fortune - $39.95
Dangerous Covenants - $29.95
Far Horizons - $29.95
Fly Casual - $29.95
Lords of Nal Hutta - $39.95
Special Modifications - $29.95
No Disintegrations - $29.95 (not yet released)
Specialization Decks
Fringer - $6.95
Scout - $6.95
Trader - $6.95
Mercenary Soldier - $6.95
Bodyguard - $6.95
Marauder - $6.95
Doctor - $6.95
Politico - $6.95
Scholar - $6.95
Scoundrel - $6.95
Thief - $6.95
Pilot - $6.95
Outlaw Tech - $6.95
Mechanic - $6.95
Slicer - $6.95
Assassin - $6.95
Gadgeteer - $6.95
Survivalist - $6.95
Force Sensitive Exile - $6.95
Archaeologist - $6.95
Big Game Hunter - $6.95
Driver - $6.95
Explorer Signature Abilities - $6.95
Enforcer - $6.95
Heavy - $6.95
Hired Gun Signature Abilities - $6.95
Demolitionist - $6.95
Performer - $6.95
Colonist Signature Abilities - $6.95
Marshal - $6.95
Entrepreneur - $6.95
Charmer - $6.95
Gambler - $6.95
Gunslinger - $6.95
Smuggler Signature Abilities - $6.95
Spoiler
Beginner Game - $29.95
Core Rulebook - $59.95
GM's Kit - $19.95
Adventures
Chronicles of the Gatekeeper - $29.95
Ghosts of Dathomir - $29.95 (not yet released)
Supplements
Keeping the Peace - $29.95
Nexus of Power - $39.95
Endless Vigil - $29.95
Savage Spirits - $29.95
Specialization Decks
Soresu Defender - $6.95
Protector - $6.95
Peacekeeper - $6.95
Aggressor - $6.95
Shii-Cho Knight - $6.95
Starfighter Ace - $6.95
Ataru Striker - $6.95
Pathfinder - $6.95
Shadow - $6.95
Hunter - $6.95
Shien Expert - $6.95
Artisan - $6.95
Niman Disciple - $6.95
Sage - $6.95
Healer - $6.95
Makashi Duelist - $6.95
Seer - $6.95
Advisor - $6.95
Spoiler
Beginner Game - $29.95
Core Rulebook - $59.95
GM's Kit - $19.95
Adventures
Onslaught at Arda I - $29.95
Friends Like These - $29.95
Supplements
Stay on Target - $29.95
Desperate Allies - $29.95
Strongholds of Resistance - $39.95
Lead by Example - $39.95
Forged in Battle - $29.95
Specialization Decks
Medic - $6.95
Sharpshooter - $6.95
Commando - $6.95
Scout - $6.95
Infiltrator - $6.95
Force-sensitive Emergent - $6.95
Slicer - $6.95
Gunner - $6.95
Pilot - $6.95
Recruit - $6.95
Driver - $6.95
Commodore - $6.95
Squadron Leader - $6.95
Tactician - $6.95
Ambassador - $6.95
Agitator - $6.95
Quartermaster - $6.95
Mechanic - $6.95
Saboteur - $6.95
Scientist - $6.95
Hotshot - $6.95
Rigger - $6.95
Ace Signature Abilities - $6.95
Beast Rider - $6.95
Propagandist - $6.95
Analyst - $6.95
Advocate - $6.95
Diplomat Signature Abilities - $6.95
Instructor - $6.95
Figurehead - $6.95
Strategist - $6.95
Commander Signature Abilities - $6.95
Spoiler
Dice - $14.95
Scum and Villainy - $6.95
Imperials and Rebels - $6.95
Imperials and Rebels II - $6.95
Citizens of the Galaxy - $6.95
Critical Injury Deck - $6.95
Critical Hit Deck - $6.95
Creatures of the Galaxy - $6.95
Hunters and Force Users - $6.95
Huh. Around $100.00 before sales tax just to get the core rules, GM's screen, and dice; tack on another $42.00 for the universal books for a total of $142.00. Then, if you want to add in the supplements for say, Age of Rebellion, shell out another $170.00 for a growing total of $300.00+. Want the AoR specialization decks? Get ready to sell a kidney or other organ for $225.00. Grand total before sales tax? About $525.00. :eek:
Don't bother looking for cheaper prices at Noble Knight - they're pretty much the same, even for used items. I didn't even bother looking on Amazon because I'm sure that's even more insane.
Anyway you look at it, the cost is pretty steep. Too damn steep for my tastes, especially since people got the "privilege" of paying around $40.00-$60.00 just for the beta rules of each game. I decided to bite the bullet and pony up the money for Edge's beta. Sold it the next day to a friend after flipping through it and seeing the dice mechanics.
Quote from: Omega;941141Then there's the narrative fueled dice mechanic. If you have any players who have trouble with icons then this game is going to be potentially hell for them. My main complaint here is some of the icons are too similar. Which doesn't help. But if you can grock the system it flows fairly ok. Just not my thing personally.
Yeah, I agree. People with poor eyesight won't be able to make heads or tails of the dice icons. Proprietary dice suck.
Harl Quinn
I don't see the icons being a real strain on most peoples' vision (pun unintended), but the books themselves are in a very small, narrow font. It ends up looking really light on the page, and at 43, I'm already having a bit of an issue with it anytime my eyes start to get tired.
double post
I don't understand why the game has such a tremendous volume of pure rules. There is actually relatively little effort made to detail the setting, monsters, npc's, etc. in the core book - it is mostly page after page after page after page of dense rules in small font. What the fuck? This isn't that complicated: nearly every roleplaying game out there, including this one, addresses similar things in their mechanics and there are hundreds of examples of how people have done it. The core rules of this game should be presented in something like 30-40 pages, and that's it - the rest should be setting material you would use at the table - ship plans, monster and npc stat blocks, maps, etc.
Gimmick dice and expensive rulebooks are no match for a solid d6 system powering your SWRPG......
Quote from: jeff37923;941167Gimmick dice and expensive rulebooks are no match for a solid d6 system powering your SWRPG......
I've had a few players that like the gimmick dice. I've also had players--including myself--that didn't much like the D6 Wild Die that came with later D6 versions. I haven't had any players that like the FFG books enough to think that they aren't terribly overpriced.
I have some notes on converting Classic Traveller to Starwars somewhere. I posted them on TMP and CotI but I don't think I've ever posted them here. If anyone wants them I can.
The Coles Notes version: Light Sabers penetrate armor and inflict damage like a Laser Rifle but have the range modifiers of a Broad Sword, they use Dexterity instead of Strength.
Quote from: HappyDaze;941168I've had a few players that like the gimmick dice. I've also had players--including myself--that didn't much like the D6 Wild Die that came with later D6 versions. I haven't had any players that like the FFG books enough to think that they aren't terribly overpriced.
The problem of the Wild Die in D6 Star Wars is simple to solve: Just say 'No.' :D
Harl Quinn
Quote from: Skarg;941147LOL wow... narrative dice with symbols... those examples speak volumes. (running away)
Its funny too as I get the symbols and their use pretty well. But just am not thrilled with the system. While others I've showed it to just stare at the symbols and fail their sanity save. But show more interest in the system. Others keep wanting to use it as a more traditional RPG no matter and a few just cannot parse symbols even with the conversion chart, AND arent fond of the system.
In some ways it reads like other number of successes vs number of successes vs cancelling successes RPGs.
In all fairness, no hobby based on a game that uses a d12 is allowed to complain about goofy dice. Goofy dice, as a general category of dice, have to be accepted as a feature not a bug in table top rpg's. But you are allowed to gripe about the rest of the game.
Quote from: Omega;941182Its funny too as I get the symbols and their use pretty well. But just am not thrilled with the system. While others I've showed it to just stare at the symbols and fail their sanity save. But show more interest in the system. Others keep wanting to use it as a more traditional RPG no matter and a few just cannot parse symbols even with the conversion chart, AND arent fond of the system.
In some ways it reads like other number of successes vs number of successes vs cancelling successes RPGs.
It looks like it's 95% illusion to me - the fancy dice and massive expensive rule-laden fancy books with official Star Wars graphics and stuff and the examples in that image of how a die roll is to be interpreted as actual things about the setting (but aren't - they're about simple die rolls), they all seem to me like a way to avoid the fact that the part about the game mechanics being about Star Wars stuff is mainly illusion not supported by the rules except if a very abstract way. The GM is then supposed to talk about Star Wars details that aren't really taken into account except very abstractly - what really happened is the die roll which doesn't refer to the blaster or the armor or the situation directly - the GM is just supposed to make up a description that sounds like that's what's happening. At most, the stuff the GM and the players make up about the situation is going to determine what dice get rolled, but it's never going to have actual elements about the actual situation being taken into account except very abstractly.
Quote from: Larsdangly;941185In all fairness, no hobby based on a game that uses a d12 is allowed to complain about goofy dice. Goofy dice, as a general category of dice, have to be accepted as a feature not a bug in table top rpg's. But you are allowed to gripe about the rest of the game.
Even if I play RPGs that just use piles of d6's? ;)
Quote from: CRKrueger;941099I have a friend who's thinking of picking this up, so I figure I'll pass on some questions, I know we have a couple veterans here.
1. Compatibility - How similar are the systems? If you can, specifically compare to the FFG 40k where Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader and Deathwatch characters didn't quite line up on the same scale/use the same modifiers, etc.
Completely compatible. One might even say to get the *all* of the goodies you'd probably want it all. It's one of the biggest irritating things that they spread out sub-systems across many books. Case in point: custom personal armor rules are in one of the Force-user books. But that aside, they're all compatible. The primary differences is Edge characters have Obligations (bad shit in your past that puts you on the fringe you need to deal with. Han owed Jabba frinstance). Military folks have Duty (which is background stuff that ties you to your organization.) Force users have their own "thing". Some GM's like to mix-and-match them, but ultimately they're used to drive potential events in the game and keep the PC's dealing with their "stuff".
Quote from: CRKrueger;941099I2. Economic Simulationism - Are the doodads of the setting concrete or abstract? On a scale of 1-10, where 10 would be Gurps: Far Trader, how concrete is buying and selling stuff?
I'd rate it 4-7 depending on what the GM wants to emphasize. Money is a big deal, especially for Edge characters. There are no official rules for cargo-trading they just assume the GM will assign a value and you RP accordingly. There are rarity values for gear which determines cost based on where you are in the galaxy. Everything costs more on the edge, for example. The FFG community has already created really nice optional rules for ship-upkeep, docking fees etc. Mainly they're translating pretty much everything from D6 Star Wars over to FFG.
Quote from: CRKrueger;9410993. Engineering Simulationism - Outfitting/modifying/repairing your starship/droid/speeder whatever. Can you illegally modify your Blastech-DL44 and Corellian YT-1300 like Han did? On a scale of 1-10, where 10 would be Gurps: Vehicles or Traveller: Fusion, Fire and Steel how is the equipment customization.
This is where the game shines. It's pretty deep, you can mod *everything* and you can then mod the mods! Gear, Starships, Vehicles, everything - it can be modded to hell and back. They balance it by assigning Hard Points to each item and the mods cost a varying amount of Hard Points. Each mod can have it's own modifications so you can really customize stuff and make it unique (and legality is always an issue). What they *don't* have are rules for building things from the ground up based on points. They essentially want you to use what's in the game and just build off of those (which technically is the same thing since there's a ton of gear in the game). I'd rate this a solid 8 or 9.
Quote from: CRKrueger;9410994. Space Travel - Do they cover Fuel/Hyperspace that kind of stuff? Do you run out of fuel only if you roll a critical failure on a Hyperspace roll or some weird abstract/narrative crap? On a scale of 1-10 where 10 is, I guess Gurps/Traveller again, where is Space Travel?
No Hyperspace fuel. Yes you can run out of fuel on a bad roll - or whatever the GM feels is appropriate for the situation. On a scale of 1-10 in this category I give it a 2. HOWEVER - once again, the Community has created more granular rules that let you track all of this stuff. Again they translated everything from D6 if you want to smell that hyperdrive cooking in the back as your ship hums along.
Quote from: CRKrueger;9410995. Starmaps - How well do they chart out the Star Wars Universe, and is there a single resource, or is it kind of all over the place in adventures, etc? If you want to 1-10 this one, I guess travellermap.com is an 11?
The map they have in the book is GORGEOUS... but it's too small. But who the FUCK needs that when you have THIS: http://www.swgalaxymap.com/ which makes this a 12.
Quote from: CRKrueger;9410996. Narrative Nonsense - What kinds of OOC mechanics are floating around? Any meta-currencies?
There are several ways to look at this. If you're a pessismist you can say there's a SHIT TON of narrative stuff. If you're moderate - you can say there's very little. The primary narrative currency is Destiny points. Essentially the Players and the GM roll Destiny dice (they represent lightside/darkside points) and the Players get to spend lightside and the GM spends Darkside. Now spending these points can be used IF the GM allows to insert narrative stuff into the scene/action/roll whatever. OR it can simply be used to give bonuses to a roll which eliminates the narrative aspect entirely. Same goes for normal dice-rolls. Pessimists insist that when you roll advantages/disadvantages on your actions that can be interpreted by the GM as "narrativist" - but they conveniently ignore the fact these values are currencies that have actual mechanical uses that have *nothing* to do with narrativism. For example - rolling X amount of advantages can give you multiple hits if you roll enough of them, or activate some of the mods on your weapons etc. So you can run the game with very little - or even NO narrative content beyond what you'd normally do on any given RPG with *zero* effort.
Quote from: CRKrueger;941099The whole reason FFGSW is looking attractive to him is because there's a ton of source material and adventures to splice together. The one thing he doesn't have time for right now is to take everything from the Star Wars technical readouts and convert to some system and he doesn't want to just take general space stuff and handwave it all as Star Wars (where everyone everywhere is using like 1 of 4 different blasters for example).
I gave him a pdf of d6 REUP, but he was asking me about FFGSW so here we go.
I'll say this: the FFG adventures are seriously some of the best adventure modules out there. They're designed well, and easily manipulated to fit in just about any campaign. You could run really satisfying campaigns just on the stuff that's out there right now. And they have really cranked out a LOT of material with huge community support. I still have room for all my d6 Star Wars stuff as reference where the tiny gaps that aren't filled in are needed.
Quote from: CRKrueger;9411057. So you never run out of fuel, ammo, etc. unless it's some form of Dramatic Complication as dictated by the Funky Dice? I think that might spike the idea right there.
I was skeptical of this too. But I've seen it in play enough to "feel" it worked. So you have to buy a few clips and keep them on you just like normal. That said - you can *easily* just ignore this, since the complication could be *literally* anything that forces you to clear a jam/reload your weapon/got a eyelash stuck in your eye etc. or the GM could just assign a penalty. So it's as narrative as you want it to be.
Quote from: CRKrueger;9411058. Aren't there Destiny Points or something like that? What can you do with them? Reroll with them, Get Out of Death Free, add a Corporate Sector Blaster Carbine behind the bar?
They can be a numerical value or a narrative value (depends on how you want to use them). Force users get more specific use out of them because they fuel their abilities.
Quote from: CRKrueger;9411059. Ok, so maybe they don't have maps, but what about Hyperspace Routes? I remember the WEG stuff at least listing known routes for popular systems, do they go that deep into it?
See the map-link in my previous post. Most of the adventures have mini-maps of the sector. I just use the maps from the Galaxy Map site that way I can calculate hyperspace jump difficulties and travel times using the d6 method.
The map you linked to is certainly better as a game aid than what comes with the game. But you can't tell me it compares with the canon Traveller galaxy map. There is orders of magnitude less information. One response might be that star wars isn't about all your liberal facts and figures; its a space opera and who cares about random planets with toxic atmospheres. Even so, let's keep this all honest: Traveller kicks the shit out of every other space game when it comes to fully fleshed out setting.
Having to refference outside sources to plug the holes in a game is not a selling point.
Having to canniballize material from other RPGs to plug the holes in a game is not a selling point.
These are flaws.
Quote from: Omega;941208Having to refference outside sources to plug the holes in a game is not a selling point.
Having to canniballize material from other RPGs to plug the holes in a game is not a selling point.
These are flaws.
I'm not claiming either of those things. I'm merely pointing out means around those existing flaws that we both have recognized.
FFG's Star Wars is *nowhere even close* to having the same amount of time in production that WEG Star Wars has had. But in the time FFG has had the license they've had they've put out a very large amount of content with higher production quality (with corresponding much higher cost).
I think the inference being made by you on this point, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that community-made content doesn't count? Isn't it disingenuous to think that people *wouldn't* translate content from d6/d20 Star Wars into this new system while it's still growing? That seems a bit silly. Especially given much of this is happening on FFG's own forums much like Savage Worlds does the same on theirs.
Quote from: Larsdangly;941202The map you linked to is certainly better as a game aid than what comes with the game. But you can't tell me it compares with the canon Traveller galaxy map. There is orders of magnitude less information. One response might be that star wars isn't about all your liberal facts and figures; its a space opera and who cares about random planets with toxic atmospheres. Even so, let's keep this all honest: Traveller kicks the shit out of every other space game when it comes to fully fleshed out setting.
I wouldn't argue this with you at all. I'm speaking strictly from the context of Star Wars and its self-contained setting, since CRKrueger is asking specifically about FFG's Star Wars. Heh if he was talking about Traveller - that would be an entirely different discussion.
Quote from: Larsdangly;941185In all fairness, no hobby based on a game that uses a d12 is allowed to complain about goofy dice. Goofy dice, as a general category of dice, have to be accepted as a feature not a bug in table top rpg's. But you are allowed to gripe about the rest of the game.
'the hell is wrong with the d12? :p
Were FFG's Star Wars RPG
just a 'narrative' RPG which used custom dice I wouldn't have a problem, but it's also an overdesigned monstrosity full of unnecessarily specific skill trees and subject ambiguous supplements designed to support a component treadmill which actively works
against what the narrative core is designed to provide. It's been a massive disappointment on almost every level.
What's worse is this is likely the only feasible way to maintain a Disney based RPG license.
#RIPMarvel
Quote from: Omega;941138It uses the funky dice and an odd sort of narrative twist. Heres a few examples. Remember to make your sanity save after, r before, or both...
(https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/StarWarsRPG/edge-of-the-empire/core-book/dice-system/SWE01-dicepool.jpg)
Yeah, I'm not against game specific dice, but this is ridiculous.
What's worse is one set isn't even enough to play the damn game.
Quote from: Larsdangly;941165I don't understand why the game has such a tremendous volume of pure rules. There is actually relatively little effort made to detail the setting, monsters, npc's, etc. in the core book - it is mostly page after page after page after page of dense rules in small font. What the fuck?
It's a mystery right up there with #DarkMatter.
Same thing happened with Shadowrun.
Quote from: Omega;941208Having to refference outside sources to plug the holes in a game is not a selling point.
Having to canniballize material from other RPGs to plug the holes in a game is not a selling point.
These are flaws.
Indeed.
However,
assumed familiarity is exactly why companies go to the trouble of licensing popular properties.
Quote from: tenbones;941215FFG's Star Wars is *nowhere even close* to having the same amount of time in production that WEG Star Wars has had. But in the time FFG has had the license they've had they've put out a very large amount of content with higher production quality (with corresponding much higher cost).
And proportionally less content actually related to Star Wars, new or otherwise.
WEG all but created everything beyond the trilogy, until they lost the license, and the prequels happened, and the EU got reset. And while I don't have behind the scenes access, I'm betting the approval process at this point is so restrictive and arduous that the only original content FFG can release is essentially identical to what's already out there.
It looks complex, but it not in play. However, the OP has moved past this, and is asking about other SW games, so I'll step back. It's been too long for me to remember anything concrete from the WEG Star Wars, so I can't really contribute.
Quote from: CRKrueger;941099I gave him a pdf of d6 REUP, but he was asking me about FFGSW so here we go.
Have you seen Classic Adventures? Essentially its d6 REUP but for WEG 1e not WEG2e R&E. I much prefer it and they have also done POD files for it:
Single PDF version: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwS75vvAnmTKSERvU1g4UkQ5WFU/view
Four minim PDFs version: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwS75vvAnmTKZWVNakw2ZVEtUnc/view
Quote from: tenbones;941194The map they have in the book is GORGEOUS... but it's too small. But who the FUCK needs that when you have THIS: http://www.swgalaxymap.com/ which makes this a 12.
I did not know this map existed. Thank you for posting it!
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;941228Were FFG's Star Wars RPG just a 'narrative' RPG which used custom dice I wouldn't have a problem, but it's also an overdesigned monstrosity full of unnecessarily specific skill trees and subject ambiguous supplements designed to support a component treadmill which actively works against what the narrative core is designed to provide. It's been a massive disappointment on almost every level.
There are only three symbols and three corresponding anti-symbols which cancel them out. The remainder you add up. It's not that hard. Or... you can buy an app. Or you can spend your success on the simple chart for numerical results like nearly every other RPG on the market. Does it look different? Yes. But it's just that - an appearance.
As for the unnecessary specific skill trees - you'll have to elaborate with some examples. I've seen no specific tree that I object to - or more specifically I even feel has *no value*. Quite the contrary. Another thing you're missing here is you are not limited by "class" - you can pick up other classes and buy things in other trees. So it's not like you're being shoe-horned into anything.
If you're referring to the spreading of sub-systems throughout the supplements? I'd agree. But then it's a licensed product and we don't know how they're limited in terms of production. To the degree that it's a "massive disappointment on almost every level" - well I hope you didn't buy anything past the basic starter set.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;941228And proportionally less content actually related to Star Wars, new or otherwise.
WEG all but created everything beyond the trilogy, until they lost the license, and the prequels happened, and the EU got reset. And while I don't have behind the scenes access, I'm betting the approval process at this point is so restrictive and arduous that the only original content FFG can release is essentially identical to what's already out there.
And since you called me out on this, and I actually curious too - I accept the challenge to my assertion.
WEG produced the following for Star Wars in the first 5-years of it's license:
The Star Wars Sourcebook (1987)
Campaign Pack (1988)
Tatooine Manhunt (1988)
Imperial Sourcebook (1988)
Strike Force Shantipole (1988)
Battle for the Golden Sun (1988)
Star Fall (1989)
Otherspace (1989)
Otherspace II: Invasion
Scavenger Hunt (1989)
Riders of the Maelstrom (1989)
Crisis on Cloud City (1989)
The Far Orbit Project (1998)
Black Ice
The Game Chambers of Questal
Domain of Evil (1991)
The Isis Coordinates (1990)
Death in the Undercity
Rebel Alliance Sourcebook (1989)
Graveyard of Alderaan (1989)
Death Star Technical Companion (1991)
Mission to Lianna (1992)
Planet of the Mists (1992)
The Abduction (1992)
Galaxy Guide 1: A New Hope - 1st Edition: 1989
Galaxy Guide 2: Yavin and Bespin- 1st Edition: 1989
Galaxy Guide 3: The Empire Strikes Back- 1st Edition: 1989
Galaxy Guide 4: Alien Races - 2nd Edition: 1st Edition: 1989
Galaxy Guide 5: The Return of the Jedi - 1st Edition: 1990
Galaxy Guide 6: Tramp Freighters - 1st Edition: 1990Dark Force Rising Sourcebook -1992
Heir to the Empire Sourcebook - 1992
Fantasy Flight Games has produced the following in its first five years that it's owned the license (and we're technically not at 5-years but I'll give it to you)
Rulebooks / basic sets for Edge of the EmpireStar Wars: Edge of the Empire - Beta
Star Wars: Edge of the Empire - Beginner Game
Star Wars: Edge of the Empire - Core Rulebook
AccessoriesEdge of the Empire Game Master's Kit (includes the gamemaster's screen)
Adventures
Beyond the Rim
The Jewel of Yavin
Mask of the Pirate Queen
Rules SupplementsEnter the Unknown (Explorer Career Book)
Dangerous Covenants (Hired Gun Career Book)
Far Horizons (Colonist Career Book)
Fly Casual (Smuggler Career Book)
Special Modifications (Technician Career Book)
No Disintegrations (Bounty Hunter Career Book)
SourcebooksSuns of Fortune (Corellian Sector Source Book)
Lords of Nal Hutta (Hutt Space Source Book)
Rulebooks / basic sets for Age of RebellionStar Wars: Age of Rebellion - Beta
Star Wars: Age of Rebellion - Beginner Game
Star Wars: Age of Rebellion - Core Rulebook
AccessoriesAge of Rebellion Game Master's Kit (includes the gamemaster's screen)
AdventuresOnslaught at Arda I
Rescue at Glare Peak (Rebellion Day Supplemental Adventure)
Friends Like These
Rules SupplementsStay on Target (Ace Career Book)
Desperate Allies (Diplomat Career Book)
Lead by Example (Commander Career Book)
Forged in Battle (Soldier Career Book)
SourcebooksStrongholds of Resistance (Alliance Worlds Source Book)
Rulebooks / basic sets for Force and DestinyStar Wars: Force and Destiny - Beta
Star Wars: Force and Destiny - Beginner Game
Star Wars: Force and Destiny - Core Rulebook
AccessoriesForce and Destiny Game Master's Kit (includes the gamemaster's screen)
AdventuresChronicles of the Gatekeeper
Ghosts of Dathomir
Rules Supplements and SourcebooksKeeping the Peace (Guardian Career Book)
Savage Spirits (Seeker Career Book)
Endless Vigil (Sentinel Career Book)
Disciples of Harmony (Consular Career Book)
SourcebooksNexus of Power (Worlds Strong in the Force Source Book)
WEG had barely started doing Galaxy Guides (which for me was some of the best stuff) the majority of which came later and was revised in 2nd edition. All in all - I think it's pretty close. A casual glance at what is missing from the WEG lineup vs. what would come later, I'd think FFG has a much larger playability edge. It's certainly more rounded - but it's *because* they had WEG's material to draw upon and target what is essential.
That said: I fully stand by my assertion. FFG has had the license for far less and has put out a *lot* of quality material. Their adventures are far better on average than WEG's. If you can't stand the system - I can't help ya. It's pretty easy once you get past the weird appearance. I've said it many many times, I was extremely skeptical of this game until I ran it. And I'm certainly not one that drinks from the narrative-game pool. It's not perfect by any stretch, no system is. But it definitely captures the feel of Star Wars for me and my group.
One difference is that FFG tends to have alot prepped, mainly so they can section it up for release in portions, before going to print where other companies have a core product and then wait to see if its worth making more. I dont know how far ahead they plan. But its been standard op for them for a good while.
Quote from: Larsdangly;941202The map you linked to is certainly better as a game aid than what comes with the game. But you can't tell me it compares with the canon Traveller galaxy map. There is orders of magnitude less information. One response might be that star wars isn't about all your liberal facts and figures; its a space opera and who cares about random planets with toxic atmospheres. Even so, let's keep this all honest: Traveller kicks the shit out of every other space game when it comes to fully fleshed out setting.
If you are comparing science fiction games based on a commercial media property, you should compare them based upon how well they emulate that commercial media property. Traveller came out the same year that Star Wars did, but was based on the science fiction that had come out before Star Wars and so lacks the cinematic feel of Star Wars style science fantasy. You can say that the Traveller map is better than the Star Wars galaxy map, but you are really comparing apples and oranges here when you do because they both represent different aesthetics.
Tenbones, while the numbers do not lie and indeed FFG has put out more in a short amount of time, but when WEG was starting out in a far different time than FFG. Thirty years has passed between the introduction of WEG Star Wars and FFG Star Wars. Publishing technology has changed. Information technology has changed. The Star Wars franchise itself has changed, It should also be remembered that when WEG had the license, it was virgin territory. I doubt that Lucas even considered that gaming in the Star Wars universe could be profitable, it was experimental. Since it was all that was out there, that is what became canon. When Timothy Zahn wrote the Thrawn Trilogy, all of the Star Wars background came from copies of the WEG version of the game.
As far as what some of the people thought about the things that came out for Star Wars, I have copies of some of the list logs for the Star Wars Mailing List. Seeing what Pablo Hidalgo (WEG emeritus and current Star Wars Rebels continuity supervisor) thought about some of the crappier Star Wars novels is an eye opener. The attitude of Lucas back then about branded products seems to be "Lets throw some shit against a wall and see what sticks."
So what do Boost and Setback dice add to the experience? What would happen if you removed them?
Quote from: tenbones;941336There are only three symbols and three corresponding anti-symbols which cancel them out. The remainder you add up. It's not that hard.
Must be at least a little harder than you think, because one of those sets doesn't cancel out.
Quote from: tenbones;941336As for the unnecessary specific skill trees - you'll have to elaborate with some examples. I've seen no specific tree that I object to - or more specifically I even feel has *no value*. Quite the contrary.
So what does putting skills in trees add to the experience? What would happen if you didn't?
Quote from: tenbones;941336Another thing you're missing here is you are not limited by "class" - you can pick up other classes and buy things in other trees. So it's not like you're being shoe-horned into anything.
Are you saying skill cost and availability is not limited by your current class and skills? If so, why have classes and skill trees in the first place. Why not templates like WEG had?
Quote from: tenbones;941336If you're referring to the spreading of sub-systems throughout the supplements? I'd agree. But then it's a licensed product and we don't know how they're limited in terms of production.
Are you saying we should let these stupid design decisions slide because we don't know if Disney is to blame?
Quote from: tenbones;941336To the degree that it's a "massive disappointment on almost every level" - well I hope you didn't buy anything past the basic starter set.
Edge of the Empire Beta actually :)
Quote from: tenbones;941336And since you called me out on this,
Um... don't shoot:confused:
Quote from: tenbones;941336I'd think FFG has a much larger playability edge.
I actually don't disagree. D6 was nowhere near as great a system as some seem to remember.
Quote from: tenbones;941336FFG has had the license for far less and has put out a *lot* of quality material.
But how much of that has added to, or is allowed to diverge from, the Star Wars cannon?
That's my point. WEG may have released fewer products, but the ones they did fundamentally defined Star Wars.
Quote from: tenbones;941336Their adventures are far better on average than WEG's.
I'll take your word for it, as I don't have enough data for comparison.
Quote from: tenbones;941336It's pretty easy once you get past the weird appearance.
But is it more difficult than it
needs to be?
Quote from: tenbones;941336But it definitely captures the feel of Star Wars for me and my group.
I recently came across The Alexandrian's review of Force & Destiny (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/37670/roleplaying-games/review-star-wars-force-and-destiny) again while searching for Actual Plays, and I think he's on to something when he claims "that people who were enjoying the system were almost universally not playing it according to the rules". Now there's nothing wrong with that, in fact many consider being able to do so a feature, but it does make determining whether a game does what it's designed to do very difficult.
So I'm happy the game has captured the feel for you, but I have no idea how much of that is due to the system vs the influence of your players. If there's an AP you'd like to share I'd love to hear it, as they're the best way of determining what a system
actually does at the table.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;941370But how much of that has added to, or is allowed to diverge from, the Star Wars cannon?
That's a licensing issue. I don't think they're allowed to add anything to the setting. Now, as for diverging, that I'm not sure what you mean here. The fact that they're letting players make characters and play in the sandbox that is the Star Wars universe, that's pretty divergent.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;941370That's my point. WEG may have released fewer products, but the ones they did fundamentally defined Star Wars.
I can't think of ANYTHING that has ever come up in any of the movies or shows I've seen that has actually come from the WEG stuff, so I don't know what you mean here either.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;941370So what do Boost and Setback dice add to the experience? What would happen if you removed them?
Booster Dice/Setback dice represent environmental/situational bonuse/penalties with a random factor added to them. What do they add? Well for time immemorial in RPG's GM's have granted bonuses/penalties based on situations ad-hoc, the principle applies here. The actual symbols on these dice are exactly the same as on the other dice. Success/Failure, Advantage/Disadvantage.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;941370Must be at least a little harder than you think, because one of those sets doesn't cancel out.
Dice don't cancel out dice. Results cancel out results. If you're referring to the Destiny Dice - they do neither. Nor are they part of normal rolls. You roll them at the beginning of each session to determine how many Lightside and Darkside points are in play. That total value stays constant for the whole sessions. So still not that hard (assuming you read the rules).
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;941370So what does putting skills in trees add to the experience? What would happen if you didn't?
Is this a serious question? Because that's like asking "What does putting skillpoints in your skills in WEG d6 Star Wars add to the experience?" I'll pretend you're not being obtuse: Well it allows your character to do things statistically better than not. If you didn't - you'd remain a starting character.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;941370Are you saying skill cost and availability is not limited by your current class and skills? If so, why have classes and skill trees in the first place. Why not templates like WEG had?
I didn't say that. I said you're not limited to just being a "class" as in a class-based game. I'm thinking you're not that familiar with FFG's game? Because the roles in the game are essentially big fat WEG templates that allow you to cross-pollinate on talent trees. That skills and talents are limited by the role-template you're using limits availability - that's up to your GM.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;941370Are you saying we should let these stupid design decisions slide because we don't know if Disney is to blame?
I'm saying I don't know why those design decisions were made. And I'm saying that nothing I do viscosity-wise changes the reality that while I don't like how these rules are spread out, the game is rock solid and excellent. What Disney has to do with this is completely irrelevant to me. Case in point - I don't play the game "as intended" in the modern setting. Never have. Never will.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;941370Edge of the Empire Beta actually :)
Well then my opinion is more well informed than yours. Granted, I risked my money to form this opinion.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;941370Um... don't shoot:confused:
heh no worries. I'm enjoying the discussion.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;941370I actually don't disagree. D6 was nowhere near as great a system as some seem to remember.
Then what precisely are we talking about? Your general dislike of Star Wars rpgs? Or that the two, arguably most successful, editions are not your favorite system to play a Jedi in?
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;941370But how much of that has added to, or is allowed to diverge from, the Star Wars cannon?
That's my point. WEG may have released fewer products, but the ones they did fundamentally defined Star Wars.
Don't understand your point? Unless you mean that you're suggesting if one wishes to play Star Wars you should only do the one that did the most groundbreaking due to their licensing agreements? FFG is under a pretty strict license as I understand it. They only very recently got clearance to do unspecified material for the new trilogy. I don't think they can even touch the prequels. WEG was under no such constraints. I still don't quite understand the question (and I doubt it has any meaning to me specifically because as I pointed out above - I don't use the setting as intended.)
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;941370I'll take your word for it, as I don't have enough data for comparison.
Well if it matters: I generally *never* buy adventures. I stopped sometime around the early 80's. I ended getting gifted a couple of the FFG adventures and read through them. They're *excellent* and designed to easily fit into any sandbox game.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;941370But is it more difficult than it needs to be?
I dunno. It's literally basic addition and subtraction. Basic resource allocation (spending advantages to activate abilities) - it's pretty easy. Sure it looks like when you roll all those dice that a Mexican pinata vomited spaghetti all over your table, but it works. I know, I'm shocked too. I'm still shocked. This conversation is making me want to play.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;941370I recently came across The Alexandrian's review of Force & Destiny (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/37670/roleplaying-games/review-star-wars-force-and-destiny) again while searching for Actual Plays, and I think he's on to something when he claims "that people who were enjoying the system were almost universally not playing it according to the rules". Now there's nothing wrong with that, in fact many consider being able to do so a feature, but it does make determining whether a game does what it's designed to do very difficult.
So I'm happy the game has captured the feel for you, but I have no idea how much of that is due to the system vs the influence of your players. If there's an AP you'd like to share I'd love to hear it, as they're the best way of determining what a system actually does at the table.
Well there's a number of errors in the article (not to mention the comments) about how the system works. If anyone has read *any* of my posts on this game they'll see I've said *many* times I was extremely skeptical of the game, the system, all of it. It wasn't until I actually ran the game that I was convinced it had legs. And it does. There are very few criticisms I've found that I consider valid outside of:
Cost - I get it. It's expensive.
Rules Distribution - sub-system rules are spread out across various books.
But most of the other "criticisms" - like the game being highly-narrative, or super-complex, or the crazy-looking charts, dice-symbols! - etc. I find disingenuous, if not flat out wrong. You can play the game without any narrative elements using numerical values. It's only complex if subtracting small numbers and adding up the remainder is taxing on ones visual math-skills, the crazy charts are fairly normal by numerical standards. And if dice-symbols are confusing - they have a table that lets you use *normal* dice. Or you can buy an app and never look at dice again.
/shrug
Quote from: Christopher Brady;941381I can't think of ANYTHING that has ever come up in any of the movies or shows I've seen that has actually come from the WEG stuff, so I don't know what you mean here either.
Star Wars Rebels has Knobby Spiders, Inquisitors, Interdictor Cruisers, the planet Shantipole. Most of the EU was based off of WEG Star Wars and some of the better stuff has remained as canon.
Quote from: jeff37923;941396Star Wars Rebels has Knobby Spiders, Inquisitors, Interdictor Cruisers, the planet Shantipole. Most of the EU was based off of WEG Star Wars and some of the better stuff has remained as canon.
Oh, well, I stand corrected. I've not seen much of Rebels, I've only seen the Clone Wars animations (both shorts and the CG one) and all the movies. But again, fair enough.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;941370I recently came across The Alexandrian's review of Force & Destiny (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/37670/roleplaying-games/review-star-wars-force-and-destiny) again while searching for Actual Plays, and I think he's on to something when he claims "that people who were enjoying the system were almost universally not playing it according to the rules". Now there's nothing wrong with that, in fact many consider being able to do so a feature, but it does make determining whether a game does what it's designed to do very difficult.
Quote from: tenbones;941336There are only three symbols and three corresponding anti-symbols which cancel them out.
Case in point: That's not how the game works.
But you're never going to be convinced of this. Because we've had this discussion before. And you still can't be bothered to crack the cover on your rulebooks and read the most basic mechanics of the game you're playing.
If you were altering the game on purpose, more power to you. But it boggles my mind that you've been playing these games for years and yet you so badly flubbed your basic reading comprehension of the rulebook that you simply fucked up the core mechanic and not only never noticed that you did it, but militantly refuse to reread the book and realize your mistake. God only knows how you're unwittingly mangling the rest of the system.
Triumph and Despair didn't cancel back during my EotE Beta play, unless something changed. It's like a 3 axis result, except one axis can occasionally go asymptotic? Made for a very schizophrenic first few play-throughs.
You're better off handwavium the Degree of Success axes, regardless if they are constantly firing. Otherwise you'd end up letting your dice run your game off into the rough and maybe off the golf course entirely. IN SJG gave similar advice about its Check Digit die... but them's a lot of "check dice" for FFGSW.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;941437Case in point: That's not how the game works.
But you're never going to be convinced of this. Because we've had this discussion before. And you still can't be bothered to crack the cover on your rulebooks and read the most basic mechanics of the game you're playing.
If you were altering the game on purpose, more power to you. But it boggles my mind that you've been playing these games for years and yet you so badly flubbed your basic reading comprehension of the rulebook that you simply fucked up the core mechanic and not only never noticed that you did it, but militantly refuse to reread the book and realize your mistake. God only knows how you're unwittingly mangling the rest of the system.
Force and Destiny pg.31
Interpreting The Pool
Triumph And Despair "Triumph and Despair do not completely cancel each other out."Triumph pg.32
"Triumph can be thought of as an enhanced, more powerful version of Advantage."Despair pg.32
"Despair can be viewed as an upgraded, more potent form of Threat."EotE FAQ which btw came out before your review. Makes one wonder if it was ignored it because it pokes holes in your ranting. "
However, the Triumph and Despair narrative(Advantage and/or Threat)
effects cannot be canceled, so the incredibly potent beneficial or negative effects still occur. "
Quote from: CRKrueger;941106Oooo...I forgot about this one...abstract range bands. Nevermind, stick in the fork in FFGSW, it's done. He hates that more than I do, if that's even possible.
Ok, moving on to d20 and d6, what are the classic "This is why people don't pick these systems" for each.
Abstract?
AoR pg 221-222 Range Bands
Engaged: To reflect two or more target who are grappling or otherwise engaged in hand-to-hand combat....
Short Range: Short range indicates up to several meters between targets....
Medium Range: Medium range can be up to several dozen meters away....
Long Range: Long Range is farther than a few dozen meters...
Extreme Range: Extreme range is the farthest range ar which two target can interact....
I find it odd for someone who goes on and on and on about
Theatre of the Mind now needs very precise, down to the inch even, ranges. It's like you need count squares on a play mat or something...
Well, that definition for Extreme range, at the least, is rather abstract.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;941437Case in point: That's not how the game works.
But you're never going to be convinced of this. Because we've had this discussion before. And you still can't be bothered to crack the cover on your rulebooks and read the most basic mechanics of the game you're playing.
If you were altering the game on purpose, more power to you. But it boggles my mind that you've been playing these games for years and yet you so badly flubbed your basic reading comprehension of the rulebook that you simply fucked up the core mechanic and not only never noticed that you did it, but militantly refuse to reread the book and realize your mistake. God only knows how you're unwittingly mangling the rest of the system.
Are you talking to me? I think you're talking to me. Well I'm not *actually* playing FFG Star Wars as I post on this topic. I don't change any of the rules mechanics. That I made a simple mention of cancellation-effects of the primary values on the dice and didn't include the typically *rare* Triumph+Despair non-cancellation rule probably doesn't warrant the assumption that I mangle the game and have horrible reading comprehension and I'm fucking up core-mechanics because I'm not re-reading core rulebooks to your satisfaction. More likely it's just an honest omission of an honest discussion.
You might wanna backtrack the hyperbolic ire you have. I'm addressing mechanical difficulties in direct play and relation to other Star Wars games. Nothing more. As someone that has run the game and doesn't deviate from the rules save for where rules do not exist - convincing me the game doesn't work, or it's a narrative mess, flies in the face of my actually doing those things with it.
Edit: I'm not a fan of range-bands either. But yeah - Theater of the Mind fixes that pretty easy.
Quote from: HappyDaze;941498Well, that definition for Extreme range, at the least, is rather abstract.
In the context of the actual game, not really.
Quote from: Sommerjon;941481I find it odd for someone who goes on and on and on about Theatre of the Mind
On and on? Unless the search function has failed, it doesn't appear that I've used that phrase since Oct 2015. Of course, since you're just here shitting yourself because giggles, there's no point, but still, that was odd.
When I first heard FFG games was making the latest Star Wars game I was disappointed, mainly after watching videos of WHFRP3 gameplay. Not my cuppa and I was convinced Star Wars would be a fiddly mess. My tastes run in the middle when it comes to rules complexity/narrative freedom. I like a solid, easy-to-use set but it has to have meat and support enough flexibility that both sides of the screen can get creative. I like mechanically supported narrative elements instead of purely winging things.
Since I'm a huge Star Wars nut, I decided to take a look. Those dice...ugh! What are these hieroglyphs? But, I kept digging. Hmmm...interesting. There's a Beginner Set? Fuck it. It's only $30.00. I've wasted more than that on toys (I'm looking at you, Spliter Cell: Blacklist! :)).
I fell in love. The way it teaches the game made what turned out to be an already easily-learned system even moreso. There was still the practice inherent to most games, but damn was I wrong about those "funny dice". I grabbed the beta book and it was lightspeed ahead. It felt Star Wars and our group loved it more and more. We dug in and learned the nuances. It's been wonderful.
I absolutely LOVE that the mechanics guide creative ideas that enhance every moment. For the minmaxers, it had weight but not to the point the less fiddly players felt left out or frustrated. The narrative aspects didn't wreck the fun of the rules junkies; they got their tactical play. The storytellers got to interact with the system while having a clear framework for narrative interactions.
In the end it may not be for everyone. No game is. I will say that there's a FANTASTIC game in there and with very few exceptions, a group can use the RAW to run a great game of Star Wars that can cater to a varied group.
Quote from: Sommerjon;941477Force and Destiny pg.31
Interpreting The Pool
Triumph And Despair
"Triumph and Despair do not completely cancel each other out."
Triumph pg.32
"Triumph can be thought of as an enhanced, more powerful version of Advantage."
Despair pg.32
"Despair can be viewed as an upgraded, more potent form of Threat."
EotE FAQ which btw came out before your review. Makes one wonder if it was ignored it because it pokes holes in your ranting.
"However, the Triumph and Despair narrative(Advantage and/or Threat) effects cannot be canceled, so the incredibly potent beneficial or negative effects still occur. "
Thanks for all those quotes proving that what I said was 100% correct. I'm a little hazy, though, on why you think I'd want to ignore something that proves my point.
Quote from: CRKrueger;941518On and on? Unless the search function has failed, it doesn't appear that I've used that phrase since Oct 2015. Of course, since you're just here shitting yourself because giggles, there's no point, but still, that was odd.
Damn do you whine a lot. Instead of answering you go on the offensive. How politician of you.
Why do you need precise bands of distance when you use theater of the mind?
Is it like your demands of precise +/- mods in order to make your 'immersive' decisions?
I like listening to you blathering on about theatre of the mind old school immersiveness bullshit, when all you are is the 3.5 munchkin.
My bad, I'm not allowed to say anything like that, it makes OHT's ass pucker, strange that you can throw whatever shade you want though. How very TBP.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;941527Thanks for all those quotes proving that what I said was 100% correct. I'm a little hazy, though, on why you think I'd want to ignore something that proves my point.
Because it doesn't prove your point.
You only stated a partial truth.
Triumph + Despair do cancel parts of the other knocking a Triumph + Despair down to Advantage + Threat.
Quote from: Sommerjon;941528Damn do you whine a lot. Instead of answering you go on the offensive. How politician of you.
Guess you couldn't find a quote sooner than 15 months either...
Quote from: Sommerjon;941528blathering on about theatre of the mind old school immersiveness
Of course that won't stop you. Never let the facts get in the way of smearing shit around. Who's the politician? :D
Quote from: Sommerjon;941528Why do you need precise bands of distance when you use theater of the mind?
A is Medium Range from B, B is Medium Range From C, C is Long Range from D, how far is A from D? How many Shorts make up an Extreme? Use numbers and the question doesn't even need to be asked, it's self-evident. Numbers work better whether you're just saying "50 yards" and no minis or map in sight, or whether you're bouncing figures square by square like you're playing monopoly.
Quote from: Sommerjon;9415283.5 munchkin.
Yeah, that's what I play, alright. Known for it in fact... or again, not even remotely in the same universe as reality, but again, shits and giggles threadcrap. :rolleyes:
Quote from: Sommerjon;941528My bad, I'm not allowed to say anything like that, it makes OHT's ass pucker, strange that you can throw whatever shade you want though. How very TBP.
Who's doing the whining again? ;)
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;941519When I first heard FFG games was making the latest Star Wars game I was disappointed, mainly after watching videos of WHFRP3 gameplay. Not my cuppa and I was convinced Star Wars would be a fiddly mess. My tastes run in the middle when it comes to rules complexity/narrative freedom. I like a solid, easy-to-use set but it has to have meat and support enough flexibility that both sides of the screen can get creative. I like mechanically supported narrative elements instead of purely winging things.
Since I'm a huge Star Wars nut, I decided to take a look. Those dice...ugh! What are these hieroglyphs? But, I kept digging. Hmmm...interesting. There's a Beginner Set? Fuck it. It's only $30.00. I've wasted more than that on toys (I'm looking at you, Spliter Cell: Blacklist! :)).
I fell in love. The way it teaches the game made what turned out to be an already easily-learned system even moreso. There was still the practice inherent to most games, but damn was I wrong about those "funny dice". I grabbed the beta book and it was lightspeed ahead. It felt Star Wars and our group loved it more and more. We dug in and learned the nuances. It's been wonderful.
I absolutely LOVE that the mechanics guide creative ideas that enhance every moment. For the minmaxers, it had weight but not to the point the less fiddly players felt left out or frustrated. The narrative aspects didn't wreck the fun of the rules junkies; they got their tactical play. The storytellers got to interact with the system while having a clear framework for narrative interactions.
In the end it may not be for everyone. No game is. I will say that there's a FANTASTIC game in there and with very few exceptions, a group can use the RAW to run a great game of Star Wars that can cater to a varied group.
This is almost exactly what happened to me and my group. Despite the fact I'm a total system's whore that loves sniffing around looking for a system that scratches an itch better* - I don't like spending money if I don't have to. I was/am very happy with WEG d6 Star Wars... I was, in fact, playing WEG Star Wars when FFG's Edge of the Empire launched. My skepticism was extraordinarily high. After going through the same general process you did, I've pretty much decided FFG's was more fun to use for Star Wars. I have yet to seriously consider using the FFG system for anything else.
I will always love WEG's Star Wars, regardless. And some of their books, I doubt I'll ever part with.
*this is that elusive unicorn that is the Gaming Dragon I chase.
Quote from: tenbones;941546This is almost exactly what happened to me and my group. Despite the fact I'm a total system's whore that loves sniffing around looking for a system that scratches an itch better* - I don't like spending money if I don't have to. I was/am very happy with WEG d6 Star Wars... I was, in fact, playing WEG Star Wars when FFG's Edge of the Empire launched. My skepticism was extraordinarily high. After going through the same general process you did, I've pretty much decided FFG's was more fun to use for Star Wars. I have yet to seriously consider using the FFG system for anything else.
I will always love WEG's Star Wars, regardless. And some of their books, I doubt I'll ever part with.
*this is that elusive unicorn that is the Gaming Dragon I chase.
Oh, man. I get chasing that gaming dragon, for sure. In the end, I've come to accept using a few systems/settings to give me what I crave. I love the things the Cypher System does and have come to see it's brilliance.
Blades in the Dark is scratching itches I didn't even know I had and does some things I feel more RPGs should. For my
Star Wars fix it's FFG, all the way.
I have my own favorites and sacred cows (
Fading Suns,
Cyberpunk 2020,
World of Darkness) yet over the years my tastes in systems has changed. Those are still great games, to be sure, but I now desire things those systems don't provide. FFG's
Star Wars assuredly provides the bits I'm looking for, but I agree it's not good for generic settings.
Quote from: Sommerjon;941531Because it doesn't prove your point.
You only stated a partial truth.
Triumph + Despair do cancel parts of the other knocking a Triumph + Despair down to Advantage + Threat.
Could you please give a reference for that? I don't believe that Triumphs and Despairs modify the other to Advantage and Threat, respectively.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;941527Thanks for all those quotes proving that what I said was 100% correct. I'm a little hazy, though, on why you think I'd want to ignore something that proves my point.
What's the debate? I may be missing the point of it. That Triumphs and Despairs don't cancel each other's effects? If so, that's exactly correct. The only aspect of the symbols that
are cancelled is Success and Failure, as normal. Is that the argument?
There are eight symbols: Success, Failure, Advantage, Threat, Triumph, Despair, Light side pips and Dark side pips. Only the first four affect their opposite. The last four have mechanical and narrative aspects, but they function mechanically independent of their opposite.
I have a question: Who on this thread who's against the game has played...I mean, truly played*...the game, not just saw the funky dice and/or heard "narrative" and threw up their hands?
*meaning not just grumbled through with preconceived negative views for a session or two.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;941527Thanks for all those quotes proving that what I said was 100% correct. I'm a little hazy, though, on why you think I'd want to ignore something that proves my point.
It's just him wandering into a discussion and publicly shitting himself again, as usual.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;941563I have a question: Who on this thread who's against the game has played...I mean, truly played*...the game, not just saw the funky dice and/or heard "narrative" and threw up their hands?
*meaning not just grumbled through with preconceived negative views for a session or two.
I'm happy to admit I haven't played it. The volume and complexity of the rules blew out my O-rings before I could finish reading the core book and organize a session. It's a lot easier to just pull out my WEG core book and a fist full of d6's!
I haven't played the system, and don't have strong feelings about it, but I am puzzled at the idea that some people think a Star Wars game needs rules for starship fuel and ammo. Do starships in Star Wars even use fuel? Do blasters use ammo? How long does a lightsaber work before you need to plug it in to charge?
I'm not interesting in FFG Star Wars, so I'm not trying to sell anyone on it. It just seems weird that people want rules for things that would actively make the game less like Star Wars. I like Traveller, but not every SF game needs to be Traveller.
Quote from: Larsdangly;941577I'm happy to admit I haven't played it. The volume and complexity of the rules blew out my O-rings before I could finish reading the core book and organize a session. It's a lot easier to just pull out my WEG core book and a fist full of d6's!
I can see where you're coming from; it does look like a lot and can be overwhelming. If I didn't love
Star Wars so much, I probably wouldn't have tried it. What's crazy is how well it works. I'm not a game designer so I can't say how better to present the rules. The only reason I care at all is that I feel it's a great game and if somebody's interested, I hope to help them enjoy it more.
As to a desire for more concrete rules for fuel and the like, I don't like telling somebody they're wrong for wanting it (not that you are). Some people like that level of granularity, which is fine, even if it's "not
Star Wars.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;941563I have a question: Who on this thread who's against the game has played...I mean, truly played*...the game, not just saw the funky dice and/or heard "narrative" and threw up their hands?
*meaning not just grumbled through with preconceived negative views for a session or two.
I gave it a shot and the funky dice just didn't do it for me. I probably didn't play it long enough to satisfy this "No true Scotsman" criteria.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;941563I have a question: Who on this thread who's against the game has played...I mean, truly played*...the game, not just saw the funky dice and/or heard "narrative" and threw up their hands?
*meaning not just grumbled through with preconceived negative views for a session or two.
Me. Hence my statement of I got the dice and the use. But the system just didnt grab me. As noted in an older thread on FFG:SW. It feels like theres like one layer too many of complexity to it all. Like it could have been done smoother or less steps. Just a baser feeling after more experience with it. Which is still limited.
Quote from: jeff37923;941584I gave it a shot and the funky dice just didn't do it for me. I probably didn't play it long enough to satisfy this "No true Scotsman" criteria.
That's perfectly fine, of course. I'm not trying to bludgeon people into liking it. It was curiosity. It's much like how I had no desire to dig into the OSR. Ugh. Fuck that.
D&D...no...just...no...
But...!
Godbound was so interesting and praise for Kevin Crawford so high, I opened my mind to it and am extremely impressed. This led to looking at OSR stuff and realizing I was wrong; it's good. I can see the appeal.
The same goes for PbtA. I had
Apocalypse World and disliked it. It made no sense to me. Then
Blades in the Dark was KS'd and as soon as I saw
Thief and
Dishonored as inspirations, I said, "Fuck, yes!". I loved the premise so much I decided I would learn its system, no matter what. And I have grown to absolutely love it! It does things I feel should be standard practice for some games.
Nobody has to like what others like, but it's pretty great when we can help our fellow enthusiasts love a game we do. :)
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;941583As to a desire for more concrete rules for fuel and the like, I don't like telling somebody they're wrong for wanting it (not that you are). Some people like that level of granularity, which is fine, even if it's "not Star Wars.
Its not? Since when? Logistics and fuel concerns have been a thing in Star Wars. Just in the background touches. Not major ones.
I think abstracting it is ok though. But Im never thrilled with "runs on Plotolium"
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;941563I have a question: Who on this thread who's against the game has played...I mean, truly played*...the game, not just saw the funky dice and/or heard "narrative" and threw up their hands?
*meaning not just grumbled through with preconceived negative views for a session or two.
I've GMed it three or four times, played it twice as a player.
Quote from: Omega;941588Its not? Since when? Logistics and fuel concerns have been a thing in Star Wars. Just in the background touches. Not major ones.
I think abstracting it is ok though. But Im never thrilled with "runs on Plotolium"
I meant in the mechanics. I don't think such focused bookkeeping has been an aspect of
Star Wars rules, but admit I haven't looked at previous versions in years. I do feel it has a place in "the story" (or whatever you want to call it), though. Shoddy maintenance, running out of fuel/food/water/etc. are cool twists and can lead to intense and interesting games.
Quote from: Sommerjon;941531Triumph + Despair do cancel parts of the other knocking a Triumph + Despair down to Advantage + Threat.
First: That is not what those quotes say and it's not how the game works.
Second: I double-checked and discovered that
you actually re-wrote the quote from the FAQ. There's really only two possible explanations for why you would do that, and neither of them reflect well on you.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;941563I have a question: Who on this thread who's against the game has played...I mean, truly played*...the game, not just saw the funky dice and/or heard "narrative" and threw up their hands?
*meaning not just grumbled through with preconceived negative views for a session or two.
I did. We got a group together to play a full campaign and, AFAIK, everyone involved was anticipating having a great time playing Star Wars. The books were gorgeous, had a ton of support for running games, and seemed to have some nice mechanics. (I still like the way the game handles minions, for example.) I've also be advocating for multi-axis narrative resolution mechanics since the last millennium (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/2781/roleplaying-games/dice-of-destiny).
After two sessions we realized something was wrong, but we pushed on for a couple more sessions before we reached a decent breaking point with some narrative closure and decided to call it. The campaign was originally intended to go for 8-12 sessions; after playing the game we realized it would actually take more like 15-20 sessions because of how much the system was slowing down the action. With roughly biweekly sessions, we just didn't see any reason to spend half a year or more playing a game that we weren't enjoying.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;941596First: That is not what those quotes say and it's not how the game works.
Second: I double-checked and discovered that you actually re-wrote the quote from the FAQ. There's really only two possible explanations for why you would do that, and neither of them reflect well on you.
I did. We got a group together to play a full campaign and, AFAIK, everyone involved was anticipating having a great time playing Star Wars. The books were gorgeous, had a ton of support for running games, and seemed to have some nice mechanics. (I still like the way the game handles minions, for example.) I've also be advocating for multi-axis narrative resolution mechanics since the last millennium (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/2781/roleplaying-games/dice-of-destiny).
After two sessions we realized something was wrong, but we pushed on for a couple more sessions before we reached a decent breaking point with some narrative closure and decided to call it. The campaign was originally intended to go for 8-12 sessions; after playing the game we realized it would actually take more like 15-20 sessions because of how much the system was slowing down the action. With roughly biweekly sessions, we just didn't see any reason to spend half a year or more playing a game that we weren't enjoying.
What was slowing you down? I'm going with a big assumption that you know the 2d20 system well and probably enjoy it. I mention that because I own
Mutant Chronicles 3e and have a difficult time grasping the rules* as quickly as I did
Star Wars.
*I do plan on diving in more deeply and only haven't as other games are the focus of learning right now, not an, "It sucks!" mentality.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;941598What was slowing you down?
Anecdotally (I haven't actually analyzed my recordings), it seemed to come down to two major factors.
First, the initiative system. The strategic flexibility of any PC being able to claim on the PC initiative slots offers some intriguing gameplay options, but the extra decision points it introduces is a constant, low-level drag on the speed of combat. In addition, patting myself on the back for a moment, over the years I've gotten very good at managing initiative in a way that keeps the pace of play as high as possible: Prompting action declaration. Putting people on deck. Calling for (or making) the next set of rolls in the down time we have in current resolution. And so forth. A lot of these techniques vanish in a puff of smoke with these kind of "hot potato" initiative systems, which further kills pace compared to other games we play.
Second, the core mechanic in general. The math required to tally up to four different results on every roll is not particularly difficult, but even with experience it's still a time sink that adds up rapidly over the course of multiple rolls. (And you also have the additional decision point and time sink of spending the advantage/threat/triumph/despair you end up with.) The system's approach puts a lot of interesting detail into every roll, but the overall design of the system remains very traditional so you end up (IMO) with a large number of rolls that are just getting bogged down with all the extra detail. (Particularly/specifically in combat.)
QuoteI mention that because I own Mutant Chronicles 3e and have a difficult time grasping the rules* as quickly as I did Star Wars.
I'm obviously going to be biased on this. I will say that we've done a number of things with
Infinity to, hopefully, make our explanations of the rules clearer and easier to learn/reference. The system does share the time sink of, "What do I spend this Momentum on?" and that does, unavoidably, slow down play.
Quote from: Sommerjon;941481Abstract?
AoR pg 221-222 Range Bands
Engaged: To reflect two or more target who are grappling or otherwise engaged in hand-to-hand combat....
Short Range: Short range indicates up to several meters between targets....
Medium Range: Medium range can be up to several dozen meters away....
Long Range: Long Range is farther than a few dozen meters...
Extreme Range: Extreme range is the farthest range ar which two target can interact....
I find it odd for someone who goes on and on and on about Theatre of the Mind now needs very precise, down to the inch even, ranges. It's like you need count squares on a play mat or something...
Those look abstract to me. Especially with "up to", "can be", and overlapping range bands. i.e. the word "few" usually means less than "several".
You can always treat range bands as ranges. So, if you're ten yards from your target you're close. Sure there's edge cases but I've never seen a truly fluid system where there weren't. I may have to integrate one into The Arcane Confabulation (which had range bands and abstract movement at one point). It'd mean another table but the increments would be fluid and consistent. Adapting movement is a little harder but if you can go one, two, or three range bands, you can equate each speed to the size of the range band. Again, not real fluid but at least a concrete and measurable increment.
Sure, I was just taking issue with Sommerjon's pointless & inaccurate argument that those weren't abstract range bands.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;941587That's perfectly fine, of course. I'm not trying to bludgeon people into liking it. It was curiosity. It's much like how I had no desire to dig into the OSR. Ugh. Fuck that. D&D...no...just...no...
Yeah, didn't mean to sound like knee-jerk snark. It is just that there has been a history of gamers pushing their favorite game and if they can't win others over to it, they just say that they didn't play the game long enough to give it a chance.
Mea culpa.
Back to compatibility. How much, if any does the FFG background material contradict the older source material. The system guides and all that?
Quote from: jeff37923;941396Star Wars Rebels has Knobby Spiders, Inquisitors, Interdictor Cruisers, the planet Shantipole. Most of the EU was based off of WEG Star Wars and some of the better stuff has remained as canon.
Slight tangent: A friend of mine has been digging through his WEG sourcebooks to find references that were used in the Rogue One Visual Guide: https://twitter.com/hishgraphics/status/819381226301591553
Quote from: fellowhoodlum;941681Slight tangent: A friend of mine has been digging through his WEG sourcebooks to find references that were used in the Rogue One Visual Guide: https://twitter.com/hishgraphics/status/819381226301591553
Oh yeah, I was reading some articles on the EU and how it influences the new canon, and yes the WEG game did and still does have a big impact. I can't remember the article but one of the people working on Rebels remarked on how the EU material, though not canon, are still owned by Disney and when it seems appropriate characters, locations and other named things can be used even if out of context with the original material. This is how Darth Bane (voice by Mark Hamill) got brought into canon at the end of the Clone Wars series. I don't think Rebels was even a done deal at the time, and the people making Clone Wars wanted to bring Bane into canon before the series ended. In Rebels, they did the same with Grand Admiral Thrawn. His story is completely different than the original Trilogy but there is no doubt it is the same character. Moreover, the upcoming canon Thrawn novel is being written by Timothy Zahn so it's quite possible he'll get the character right.
I haven't seen Rogue One yet. If I wait any longer it may end up being the only Star Wars film I didn't see in the theater. But that's a health related issue and not a personal choice. I will watch all the Star Wars. All of it. However, there are several Rebels Easter Eggs in the film. Those Hammerhead ships are directly from Rebels. Meaning, the Rogue One production team thought they looked neat and asked the Rebels team if they could use them. They are the same models, just retextured. The funny thing is, the Rogue One people didn't know about the storyline with the Hammerheads or how a young Leia helped the Rebels obtain them. So it has deeper meaning because of serendipity.
I am unsure about FFG Star Wars because we're talking some serious cash even as an entry level game. Not that I wouldn't pay it, but I would have to actually have living breathing players made of meat sitting at a table with me to make that investment. However, I might get something like the Edge of Empire boxed set rules and some extra dice. I collect dice, so if I never used them they can go sit on the shelf with my Fudge Dice and my Cheater Dice (the latter has been in the packaging for close to 30 years). I don't mind systems with narrative mechanics but at the same time I kind of like crunchier systems. I at least want to give it at try.
I did run a d20 RCR campaign for a few years about a decade ago. Say what you will, that was the most fun in Star Wars I have ever had. Mind you I also used Dungeon Dice to make random space stations and military bases as well as the ventilation system in a Star Destroyer. The latter was the best, as someone made a joke about how clean air vents always were until I started chasing them around with the droids that clean the vents that I invented on the spot. It probably didn't hurt that I had played both Knights of the Old Republic games extensively, so the d20 mechanics didn't bother me so much.
Last year I did get about 3000 pages of the ReUp stuff based on the WEG d6 game printed out during a Lulu sale. Let's just say that I am ready to play d6 Star Wars at any given moment. I still want to try FFG Star Wars. I may love it or I may not like it at all. I love Cortex Plus and I could not understand Marvel Heroic until I was actually reading through Fate Core and suddenly understood it. That said, even though I love Cortex Plus and I know it uses Fate mechanics, I do not like Fate. So there is no way to know if I will like FFGSWRPG until I actually play it.
Quote from: Omega;941669Back to compatibility. How much, if any does the FFG background material contradict the older source material. The system guides and all that?
FFG has a lot of the Legends material in its background, including things like Vader's apprentice from Force Unleashed being responsible for bringing the Rebel Alliance together. The newer products have been downplaying the Legends material and pushing a bit more of the Disney version, but it's not absolute. Still, you do find some oddities, like the E-wing being developed around the time of the Battle of Yavin, because FFG wants to fit as much as possible into their very limited focus time that starts with the Battle of Yavin and ends with the Battle of Endor.
Quote from: fellowhoodlum;941681Slight tangent: A friend of mine has been digging through his WEG sourcebooks to find references that were used in the Rogue One Visual Guide: https://twitter.com/hishgraphics/status/819381226301591553
That is pretty cool!
Let him know that the name of Jedi Master Mace Windu was first used as the name of a Squib salesman at Jawa Traders in Galaxy Guide 7: Mos Eisley (page 57).
Quote from: jeff37923;941658Yeah, didn't mean to sound like knee-jerk snark. It is just that there has been a history of gamers pushing their favorite game and if they can't win others over to it, they just say that they didn't play the game long enough to give it a chance. Mea culpa.
I didn't take it that way, no worries! I've had plenty of people steer me right and help me find joy in a game I wanted to like, but had a hard time with. If I can possibly do the same, I'll try. In the end I don't get upset that others don't enjoy what I like and respect their choices.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;941615Anecdotally (I haven't actually analyzed my recordings), it seemed to come down to two major factors.
First, the initiative system. The strategic flexibility of any PC being able to claim on the PC initiative slots offers some intriguing gameplay options, but the extra decision points it introduces is a constant, low-level drag on the speed of combat. In addition, patting myself on the back for a moment, over the years I've gotten very good at managing initiative in a way that keeps the pace of play as high as possible: Prompting action declaration. Putting people on deck. Calling for (or making) the next set of rolls in the down time we have in current resolution. And so forth. A lot of these techniques vanish in a puff of smoke with these kind of "hot potato" initiative systems, which further kills pace compared to other games we play.
Second, the core mechanic in general. The math required to tally up to four different results on every roll is not particularly difficult, but even with experience it's still a time sink that adds up rapidly over the course of multiple rolls. (And you also have the additional decision point and time sink of spending the advantage/threat/triumph/despair you end up with.) The system's approach puts a lot of interesting detail into every roll, but the overall design of the system remains very traditional so you end up (IMO) with a large number of rolls that are just getting bogged down with all the extra detail. (Particularly/specifically in combat.)
I'm obviously going to be biased on this. I will say that we've done a number of things with Infinity to, hopefully, make our explanations of the rules clearer and easier to learn/reference. The system does share the time sink of, "What do I spend this Momentum on?" and that does, unavoidably, slow down play.
Too lazy to clip it down, sorry. It's totally cool! Be biased as can be, bud. It's your baby! I'm completely on-board to learn 2d20 and anything you want to chime in on is fine. And I get that over time the people writing 2d20 games will polish it with each game, even if they have little tweaks in the rules. I'm looking forward to
Infinity.
By the way, thanks for all the discussion, I sent my friend a link so he can read all the different opinions.
For all the people talking about "Why would you care about fuel in Star Wars?" I dunno, because maybe the ships use fuel? Hypermatter, whatever Ion thrusters run on, etc.
The people I play with don't want to play in a literary construct and create stories that 100% match the movies and television series. They want to roleplay a character in the Star Wars universe. That universe can support Firefly-type scenarios. The first book, Edge of the Empire, is about Scoundrels, right? Han Solo at Star's End type stuff. Even if you roleplay in StoryMode, you certainly can see that Han spent a significant amount of time, even when involved and even leading the Rebel Alliance, in constantly keeping the Millenium Falcon repaired. Even if you move on to the second book, dealing with the Rebel Alliance, since the RPG isn't one of the three wargames (Imperial Assault, X-Wing or Armada) then how does a group of four people help the Alliance? By doing small commando stuff, by doing essentially Shadowruns, but also by keeping the damn fleet operational through smuggling, trading, etc.
The second you step away from "What literally did Luke, Han and Leia do?" then you step into verisimilitude where things like Fuel, Ammo, Maintenance, Supply, etc. can become Mission Critical for the Star Wars version of the Firefly crew.
Damn, do people actually need to be told this? This isn't self-evident?
The answer seems to be "every possible expendable resource runs on Narrativium". Which isn't gonna work I don't think. It would be easier to take a working system without Narrativium and convert stats then to take a Narrative system and invent new mechanics to drop out of StoryMode.
@Kreuger,
Star Wars is just like any other serialized science fiction story universe in that weapons and equipment need reloading, refuelling, and maintenance which is assumed to be happening 'off camera' most of the time.
Unless there's a plot-driven need for it to matter-- like when the shuttlecraft crash lands and you discover the captain doesn't keep supplies on board! Or if the hyperdrive 'leaks' and you have to divert to another planet, etc.
Playing in the 80s, my D&D group just wrote 'adventuring gear' on their character sheet, and you only ran out of door spikes or torches if the DM needed you to for the game.
I prefer that to playing "Accountants & Actuaries" where the players track every kg of weight and ammo to the round.
Quote from: CRKrueger;941793By the way, thanks for all the discussion, I sent my friend a link so he can read all the different opinions.
For all the people talking about "Why would you care about fuel in Star Wars?" I dunno, because maybe the ships use fuel? Hypermatter, whatever Ion thrusters run on, etc.
The people I play with don't want to play in a literary construct and create stories that 100% match the movies and television series. They want to roleplay a character in the Star Wars universe. That universe can support Firefly-type scenarios. The first book, Edge of the Empire, is about Scoundrels, right? Han Solo at Star's End type stuff. Even if you roleplay in StoryMode, you certainly can see that Han spent a significant amount of time, even when involved and even leading the Rebel Alliance, in constantly keeping the Millenium Falcon repaired. Even if you move on to the second book, dealing with the Rebel Alliance, since the RPG isn't one of the three wargames (Imperial Assault, X-Wing or Armada) then how does a group of four people help the Alliance? By doing small commando stuff, by doing essentially Shadowruns, but also by keeping the damn fleet operational through smuggling, trading, etc.
The second you step away from "What literally did Luke, Han and Leia do?" then you step into verisimilitude where things like Fuel, Ammo, Maintenance, Supply, etc. can become Mission Critical for the Star Wars version of the Firefly crew.
Damn, do people actually need to be told this? This isn't self-evident?
The answer seems to be "every possible expendable resource runs on Narrativium". Which isn't gonna work I don't think. It would be easier to take a working system without Narrativium and convert stats then to take a Narrative system and invent new mechanics to drop out of StoryMode.
For those who crave a maintenance intensive facet to the game there's a fabulous fan-made supplement for it. I can try to find it again, if interested. It's about as official-looking as I've seen and it's pretty well-received.
As far as narrative handling of the fiddly bits, it works for many people. A lot of people just want to get to the action/plot/whatever. It may not work for you, but that doesn't make it bad or that those who disregard it are clueless.
One thing that bears mentioning is that there are repair construction and rules for the mechanics and tinkerers in the group.
Quote from: AaronBrown99;941798@Kreuger,
Star Wars is just like any other serialized science fiction story universe in that weapons and equipment need reloading, refuelling, and maintenance which is assumed to be happening 'off camera' most of the time.
Unless there's a plot-driven need for it to matter-- like when the shuttlecraft crash lands and you discover the captain doesn't keep supplies on board! Or if the hyperdrive 'leaks' and you have to divert to another planet, etc.
Playing in the 80s, my D&D group just wrote 'adventuring gear' on their character sheet, and you only ran out of door spikes or torches if the DM needed you to for the game.
I prefer that to playing "Accountants & Actuaries" where the players track every kg of weight and ammo to the round.
Again, it's in keeping with the universe. Blasters have an ungodly amount of ammo, like in the hundreds of shots, and that's just the pistols. And you can assume that any docking fees includes refueling, and given that all known hyperlanes are mapped out, the astrogation computers built into every Hyper Drive capable vessel will make sure you have the right amount of fuel for you to get to where you want to go.
Detail apathy is just one play style. Even if action films set in a fictional universe choose not to dwell on how much fuel or credits are on hand, or where the toilets are, presumably the universe represented does actually work based on existential things that have actual quantities and measurements associated with them. As an audience member, or as an apathetic math/records/detail-intolerant player, one may not care about that, but the universe and the people in that universe presumably do. Han seemed pretty interested in the number of credits Obi-Wan was offering him in the cantina. And there seem to be entire staffs of rebel and imperial minions dealing with logistics and maintenance. Stormtroopers seem to carry bandoliers of gear, and even if a blaster can shoot 100 shots and no one is seen reloading, it doesn't mean there aren't limits and effects - maybe shot strength or accuracy start to degrade.
I know that I and my players do tend to care about how things work and what the limits are in the games we play. The schemes, adventures and tactics tend to involve pushing the limits, so it matters what those limits are. Ok so ya certainly ships make sure they have enough fuel to jump where they're going, but that's an actual amount, and it will matter when/if there is ship damage, an accident, a change of plans, a need to jump without refueling, a need to lie to the refueling authorities abut where you're actually going, a need to know how much fuel a ship would still have left, or how long it can be on patrol without having a supply concern, etc etc etc. Is ship fuel explosive? Does it contribute to the blast strength in a ship crash, can it be used to make a bomb, and/or re-sold? How much does it cost to operate a ship and make jumps? What happens when you run out of spare parts or sell off unneeded ship gear or try to skimp on maintenance? How much looted equipment can we cram in the hold, and how damaged will it get when we make violent maneuvers? You and your players may not care, but it's never long before my players start asking questions and making plans based on answers to such questions.
Sounds like FFG has near-zero answers to these sorts of questions.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;941828Again, it's in keeping with the universe. Blasters have an ungodly amount of ammo, like in the hundreds of shots, and that's just the pistols. And you can assume that any docking fees includes refueling, and given that all known hyperlanes are mapped out, the astrogation computers built into every Hyper Drive capable vessel will make sure you have the right amount of fuel for you to get to where you want to go.
Which is totally fine.
But...you will have to refuel at some point, or do maintenance, or whatever. The blaster will run out of Tibanna Gas or whatever at some point. That may come into play depending on what's happening or it may not.
There's a universe of excluded middle between Actuaries and Accountants and "Everything is perfect unless you roll too many Epic Fail symbols".
Quote from: Skarg;941840Detail apathy is just one play style. Even if action films set in a fictional universe choose not to dwell on how much fuel or credits are on hand, or where the toilets are, presumably the universe represented does actually work based on existential things that have actual quantities and measurements associated with them. As an audience member, or as an apathetic math/records/detail-intolerant player, one may not care about that, but the universe and the people in that universe presumably do. Han seemed pretty interested in the number of credits Obi-Wan was offering him in the cantina. And there seem to be entire staffs of rebel and imperial minions dealing with logistics and maintenance. Stormtroopers seem to carry bandoliers of gear, and even if a blaster can shoot 100 shots and no one is seen reloading, it doesn't mean there aren't limits and effects - maybe shot strength or accuracy start to degrade.
I know that I and my players do tend to care about how things work and what the limits are in the games we play. The schemes, adventures and tactics tend to involve pushing the limits, so it matters what those limits are. Ok so ya certainly ships make sure they have enough fuel to jump where they're going, but that's an actual amount, and it will matter when/if there is ship damage, an accident, a change of plans, a need to jump without refueling, a need to lie to the refueling authorities abut where you're actually going, a need to know how much fuel a ship would still have left, or how long it can be on patrol without having a supply concern, etc etc etc. Is ship fuel explosive? Does it contribute to the blast strength in a ship crash, can it be used to make a bomb, and/or re-sold? How much does it cost to operate a ship and make jumps? What happens when you run out of spare parts or sell off unneeded ship gear or try to skimp on maintenance? How much looted equipment can we cram in the hold, and how damaged will it get when we make violent maneuvers? You and your players may not care, but it's never long before my players start asking questions and making plans based on answers to such questions.
Sounds like FFG has near-zero answers to these sorts of questions.
Not really, in the 'customization' options, they list bits of Blasters and even melee weapons. Even starship lists, but it's the minutiae that doesn't matter. Because for the most part, it leads to micromanagement and constant cost adjudication which slows the game down, or at the extreme end, power gaming.
Well, and if my players have epic fails, they're going to want to know how their supposedly super-reliable blasters failed, in detail, and what they can do about that. And when they learn it is just cosmic narrativium and in fact the exact same odds would apply if they were using six-guns with this game system, that tends to be disappointing.
It also occurs to me that the FFG game uses percentile dice
which aren't included in either the dice sets or beginner boxes they sell.
I mean
come on.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;941381That's a licensing issue. I don't think they're allowed to add anything to the setting.
Quote from: tenbones;941391FFG is under a pretty strict license as I understand it. They only very recently got clearance to do unspecified material for the new trilogy. I don't think they can even touch the prequels. WEG was under no such constraints.
That's my point.
So what exactly are they putting in their games?
Quote from: Christopher Brady;941381Now, as for diverging, that I'm not sure what you mean here.
WEG was able to take the game into experimental directions (like Otherspace (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Otherspace)) which didn't necessarily line up with what people expected from Star Wars.
Quote from: tenbones;941391Dice don't cancel out dice.
I'm not talking about the dice.
Quote from: tenbones;941391So still not that hard (assuming you read the rules).
#Irony
Quote from: tenbones;941391Booster Dice/Setback dice represent environmental/situational bonuse/penalties with a random factor added to them. What do they add? Well for time immemorial in RPG's GM's have granted bonuses/penalties based on situations ad-hoc, the principle applies here. The actual symbols on these dice are exactly the same as on the other dice. Success/Failure, Advantage/Disadvantage.
This can be done with the other dice, so they're
redundant.
Quote from: tenbones;941391Is this a serious question? Because that's like asking "What does putting skillpoints in your skills in WEG d6 Star Wars add to the experience?" I'll pretend you're not being obtuse: Well it allows your character to do things statistically better than not. If you didn't - you'd remain a starting character.
This can be done without talent trees, so they're
unnecessary.
Quote from: tenbones;941391Well then my opinion is more well informed than yours. Granted, I risked my money to form this opinion.
Actually, if anything that makes your opinion more biased and suspect (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=korGK0yGIDo).
Quote from: tenbones;941391This conversation is making me want to play.
Then it's been more successful than 99% of the shit that happens here :)
Quote from: tenbones;941391Well there's a number of errors in the article (not to mention the comments) about how the system works.
Then how about you point them out?
Quote from: tenbones;941391If anyone has read *any* of my posts on this game they'll see I've said *many* times I was extremely skeptical of the game, the system, all of it. It wasn't until I actually ran the game that I was convinced it had legs.
Proclaiming your initial skepticism and change of faith is not pointing them out.
Quote from: tenbones;941391But most of the other "criticisms" - like the game being highly-narrative, or super-complex, or the crazy-looking charts, dice-symbols! - etc. I find disingenuous, if not flat out wrong.
Luckily none of those criticisms were leveled at the game by either by myself or Justin. On the other hand we both pointed out the game was incomplete, inconsistent, and more complex than it needed to be.
Quote from: tenbones;941500That I made a simple mention of cancellation-effects of the primary values on the dice and didn't include the typically *rare* Triumph+Despair non-cancellation rule probably doesn't warrant the assumption that I mangle the game and have horrible reading comprehension and I'm fucking up core-mechanics because I'm not re-reading core rulebooks to your satisfaction. More likely it's just an honest omission of an honest discussion.
This doesn't change the fact you made an incorrect statement
twice regarding information which is effortless to verify and
after links were provided to you which did so.
Quote from: tenbones;941500Well I'm not *actually* playing FFG Star Wars as I post on this topic. I don't change any of the rules mechanics.
Quote from: tenbones;941500I'm addressing mechanical difficulties in direct play and relation to other Star Wars games. Nothing more. As someone that has run the game and doesn't deviate from the rules save for where rules do not exist - convincing me the game doesn't work, or it's a narrative mess, flies in the face of my actually doing those things with it.
This is not a defense. This is not a validation. This is #CognitiveDissonance at its finest and exactly what Justin was talking about. Basically it can't be broken because it works for you, even though you've clearly demonstrated you don't fully understand how it works.
Which is
fine, because you
should stick with what works for you regardless of why, but the experience is non-portable between groups.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;941552Could you please give a reference for that? I don't believe that Triumphs and Despairs modify the other to Advantage and Threat, respectively.
Apparently they do, sorta (https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/StarWarsRPG/edge-of-the-empire/support/SWE02_FAQ_HiRes.pdf).
Quote from: Use The FAQ Luke...Q: Does a Threat cancel the Success portion of a Triumphs? Does an Advantage cancel the Failure portion of a Despair?
A: Yes in both cases. However, the Triumph and Despair's narrative effects cannot be canceled, so the incredibly potent beneficial or negative effects still occur. It's even possible to have the narrative effects of both a Triumph and Despair happen on the same roll, making for especially dramatic results.
Which is news to me, and makes the game even more unnecessarily complex than I initially thought.
Quote from: Omega;941585It feels like theres like one layer too many of complexity to it all. Like it could have been done smoother or less steps.
There is, and it could be, and the people who successfully play it all seem to ignore large portions of it to do so.
Quote from: Krimson;941687I love Cortex Plus and I could not understand Marvel Heroic until I was actually reading through Fate Core and suddenly understood it. That said, even though I love Cortex Plus and I know it uses Fate mechanics, I do not like Fate.
Yeah, I've encountered the same kind of thing in multiple disciplines.
Quote from: jeff37923;941696Let him know that the name of Jedi Master Mace Windu was first used as the name of a Squib salesman at Jawa Traders in Galaxy Guide 7: Mos Eisley (page 57).
:eek:
#Amazeballs (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Macemillian-winduart%C3%A9)
Quote from: CRKrueger;941841There's a universe of excluded middle between Actuaries and Accountants and "Everything is perfect unless you roll too many Epic Fail symbols".
That's just crazy talk!
Oh, and as for the hyperspace range and fuel issue, are there really players who won't want to know how far on the map they can get on a full load of fuel, as well as their current range with their current fuel? That seems like a really basic thing, and one that seems much better handled by actual numbers than by no numbers and random die rolls.
Quote from: Skarg;941861Oh, and as for the hyperspace range and fuel issue, are there really players who won't want to know how far on the map they can get on a full load of fuel, as well as their current range with their current fuel? That seems like a really basic thing, and one that seems much better handled by actual numbers than by no numbers and random die rolls.
Apparently, for many, they can travel across the Galaxy Far Far Away, to the Milky Way, Andromeda and back, and no one needs to care about it unless someone thinks it's #DramaticallySatisfying or some kind of Plot Twist complete with Dun Dun Dun music. :D
Do you beat the Imperial Star Destroyer to Dantooine? Doesn't matter where you are where you start, where they are where they start, how fast your respective ships are or even how far Dantooine is really. All that matters is whether you got 2 MoneyShot Symbols. ;) {Yes I'm aware they use Hyperdrive Class like WEG did, just making fun of the Extreme Handwavium Club more than anything}
Quote from: Skarg;941844Well, and if my players have epic fails, they're going to want to know how their supposedly super-reliable blasters failed, in detail, and what they can do about that. And when they learn it is just cosmic narrativium and in fact the exact same odds would apply if they were using six-guns with this game system, that tends to be disappointing.
OK, fair enough, I can agree there.
However, the problem I'm having, and it's not something you can deal with is that any game I've played. Most of them don't go into that much detail.
If the game has jamming rules, (and I'm only speaking from my personal experience) it often doesn't go into detail as to what happened. Assumption: .45 auto. Did the slide catch on something? Did the spent shell eject fully, or is stuck? Did a spring snap? We don't know, and often we don't need to know, all we know is that the weapon 'broke' and may be out of the fight, or might be recoverable.
And for a lot of people going into detail as to what exactly happened, breaks down into bean counting, all we really need to know is the gun can't fire. Why? Make shit up.
Quote from: CRKrueger;941867All that matters is whether you got 2 MoneyShot Symbols.
Oh dear, what cancels out a money shot symbol?!
Nevermind, I don't want to know.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;941871OK, fair enough, I can agree there.
However, the problem I'm having, and it's not something you can deal with is that any game I've played. Most of them don't go into that much detail.
If the game has jamming rules, (and I'm only speaking from my personal experience) it often doesn't go into detail as to what happened. Assumption: .45 auto. Did the slide catch on something? Did the spent shell eject fully, or is stuck? Did a spring snap? We don't know, and often we don't need to know, all we know is that the weapon 'broke' and may be out of the fight, or might be recoverable.
And for a lot of people going into detail as to what exactly happened, breaks down into bean counting, all we really need to know is the gun can't fire. Why? Make shit up.
There are several levels of possible detail between having different types of mechanical failures, and not really tracking any details at all and having everything from malfunctions to aiming and dodging and cover and The Force represented by abstract dice that take none of that into account. When the game includes how many rounds are in each type of weapon, how likely a gun is to malfunction, its accuracy properties, the positions of the combatants and available cover, their armor, physical condition, skills, stances and actions, then all of things become actual elements of play that can be played with in ways that make sense. When none of those things have any stats or rules, those things either don't exist, have no effect, or have an invented-on-the-spot effect. In the examples in the sample with the pictures of the dice, clearly it's the generic dice, not really taking the situation into account much at all, and then the details are afterthoughts that sound plausible as if things like armor were taken into account, but they're not except possibly if they were theoretically somehow fudged by someone into the number of dice to roll.
OK, so everyone has a opinion. Fine. Whatever. You like things or don't. But bitching that FFG makes a game that uses percentiles but doesn't come with percentile dice? That's a moronic complaint unless you bitch that nearly every RPG around doesn't include dice. I guess all those OSR fans better riot since their game didn't include a d20! OPP? They screw you out of a ton of 10-siders!
Goddamn, gamers can be a bunch of close minded fucks.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;941897Goddamn, gamers can be a bunch of close minded fucks.
I know, how could those heathens not enjoy something you do?
I bet they don't even like Lutefisk. :D
Quote from: Warboss Squee;941897Goddamn, gamers can be a bunch of close minded fucks.
C'mon, brother. It's not an RPG site sacred cow so it must suck. ;) One also has to consider the seething vitriol many have for anything remotely close to a player-driven narrative mechanic. FFG
Star Wars, Cypher System and PbtA are all things I see get shit on for reasons I don't agree with, but whatever. I won't argue opinions because they don't affect my enjoyment. I will argue blatant ignorance of how the mechanics work, as well as help people who like the game (or really want to) but are struggling with enjoyment find it. Past that, haters gonna' hate.
I wonder how
Blades in the Dark would be received? :)
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;941961It's not an RPG site sacred cow so it must suck.
You mean as opposed to: Oh, it's got new Story Mechanics, it must be the greatest thing ever!
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;941961One also has to consider the seething vitriol many have for anything remotely close to a player-driven narrative mechanic.
You mean as opposed to the oddly unsettling sexual fetish some have for anything remotely close to a player-driven narrative mechanic?
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;941961Past that, haters gonna' hate.
...and fanbois gonna come all over themselves.
See how that stupid shit works?
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;941961I wonder how Blades in the Dark would be received?
People who love OOC Storytelling Mechanics will like it, people who prefer IC Roleplaying not quite so much.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;941961.I wonder how Blades in the Dark would be received? :)
How is the development going btw ? I remember getting really excited by it one year or so ago. The idea of having a char sheet for your crew, together with the city factions network, is neat. Also, healing stress by engaging in vices.
Quote from: Skarg;941888There are several levels of possible detail between having different types of mechanical failures, and not really tracking any details at all and having everything from malfunctions to aiming and dodging and cover and The Force represented by abstract dice that take none of that into account. When the game includes how many rounds are in each type of weapon, how likely a gun is to malfunction, its accuracy properties, the positions of the combatants and available cover, their armor, physical condition, skills, stances and actions, then all of things become actual elements of play that can be played with in ways that make sense. When none of those things have any stats or rules, those things either don't exist, have no effect, or have an invented-on-the-spot effect. In the examples in the sample with the pictures of the dice, clearly it's the generic dice, not really taking the situation into account much at all, and then the details are afterthoughts that sound plausible as if things like armor were taken into account, but they're not except possibly if they were theoretically somehow fudged by someone into the number of dice to roll.
That honestly sounds like ASL (Advanced Squad Leader) level stuff, overly complex and thoroughly unimportant in the grand scheme of things. To me.
YMMV.
Quote from: Warboss Squee;941897Goddamn, gamers can be a bunch of close minded fucks.
Tell me about it. I'm sure as fuck not perfect, but I love trying something new, even if it doesn't work out in the end.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;941995That honestly sounds like ASL (Advanced Squad Leader) level stuff, overly complex and thoroughly unimportant in the grand scheme of things. To me.
YMMV.
My view is the opposite of what yours and this style of game design seem to be. Details like that to me are what make a game both interesting and actually about what the game says it is about, and their absence is what to me is missing the part that interests me (and the part that I need to feel like I'm actually facing the supposed game situation) - playing a game that represents the detailed cause & effect of the situation in a consistent way.
As for complexity, what I've been reading here and in Spike's thread sounds actually more complex than TFT or the GURPS Basic Set (which include most/all of those details, and/or more), so I'm not sure what one gains by having the complexity ignore the situation details and be about abstract things, except freedom to make up stuff, which I take is the point, though then I'm not sure why it needs to be so complex - I can run a game by just rolling dice and intuiting/inventing what it means all day without any rules at all. Oh, I guess that's so you can have some fairness about who gets to invent what happens next. I can see that having some appeal, but it is really a different kind of game than what I generally am interested in.
Quote from: Itachi;941982How is the development going btw ? I remember getting really excited by it one year or so ago. The idea of having a char sheet for your crew, together with the city factions network, is neat. Also, healing stress by engaging in vices.
Fantasticly! The final PDF version (minus final art and any editing catches done before it goes to print) is slated for release is slated for a January 30th release. It is late but John Harper's run an astounding KS. He's been in constant touch, taken feedback into account, given increasingly finished update PDFs and little snippets to enhance the game. It was apparently going to be 170 pages, IRC. It's now going to be around 300? I forget the exact page count but we're essentially getting the second edition as the first release.
As to playing it, we were
finally able to (our awesome FFG's
Star Wars has been going for over a year with now with 1,000 XP+ characters) and it was a blast! I ran a score for a crew of Shadows (thieves, spies & saboteurs) consisting of a Lurk (sneaky guy) and Whisper (ghostly guy). We interacted with the system fully with few snags (the regular learning a new game) and came up with some great world-building. It's a game I'm very much looking forward to in final form. If you have any questions, I'm more than happy to discuss them. Also, in case you don't know about it, there's a great community on G+ that's been super-helpful.
Quote from: CRKrueger;941975You mean as opposed to: Oh, it's got new Story Mechanics, it must be the greatest thing ever!
You mean as opposed to the oddly unsettling sexual fetish some have for anything remotely close to a player-driven narrative mechanic?
...and fanbois gonna come all over themselves.
See how that stupid shit works?
People who love OOC Storytelling Mechanics will like it, people who prefer IC Roleplaying not quite so much.
Wow, thou doth protest too much!
Quote from: Christopher Brady;941995Tell me about it. I'm sure as fuck not perfect, but I love trying something new, even if it doesn't work out in the end.
I tried Fate, various X-world flavors, played a few sessions of 2d20, ran some MSH. I went pretty heavy into WFRP3, which is kind of FFGSW's ancestor.
I actually kind of liked the Funky Dice, but coming up with narrations to explain every single positive or negative complication was tiring after a while. It wasn't the funky dice or the cards and counters that killed WFRP3 for us, it was the Mooks, Range Bands, and weird loopholes with spellcasting.
Experience has taught me there's not a Zone or Range Band system I can't break (ie. come up with a combination of NPCs, position and distance that makes it difficult to determine PC movement) given some trivially basic encounters. Range numbers will always be clearer and simpler.
It's interesting though, because these narrative games don't necessarily have Less rules, they just have Different ones. Take for example Itachi's response. He wants to check out the mechanics for narrating how his character reduces Stress by engaging in Vices. If I played a crime game, my Hitman would enjoy sampling the New Girls at Mama Chang's House of Silk when they come in, I just don't need mechanics for the effect. Instead, when I get into a vehicle, I generally want to know how far this thing will go before I need to stop. I don't care what the answer is, but I'd like one. Crazy I know.
It all comes down to the most basic assumption of the game:
1. Is it providing rules to detail the reality or verisimilitude of a world.
Or
2. Is it providing rules to detail the creation of stories in that world.
If #2, then many things are going to be measured with Plotinium, just be papered over to be handled through the narration mechanics as Complications or whatever. In place of those rules, data, whatever, to allow deeper engagement with the setting, you will have new rules dealing with the OOC decisions, allowing deeper engagement with the story.
I'm sure the character level action will be useless to me, but Blades in the Dark might actually be interesting if it has an abstracted system for taking over streets, businesses, criminal enterprises, gangs etc. Abstract isn't a problem for me, I don't need Harnmanor or Fusion, Fire, Steel level of detail as long as it's based on something other than the Needs of the Story, which I kind of doubt, unfortunately.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;942041Wow, thou doth protest too much!
Wow, you get called on your passive-aggressive crap and respond with the SRSBSNS defense, what a complete shock and surprise. :rolleyes:
So about Blades in the Dark, what's the Territory aspect like?
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;941896But bitching that FFGmakes a game that uses percentiles but doesn't come with percentile dice? That's a moronic complaint unless you bitch that nearly every RPG around doesn't include dice.
Well that actually
is a major problem which keeps non-gamers from entering the hobby unless invited, and gamers bitching about games which don't use the dice they already own.
Regardless, the reason it's a big deal
here is because the beginner sets
do include dice, and FFG
does sell their own sets, so the consumer impression will be that those dice sets are
complete, which they're
not.
Sorry, that's bullshit of the highest order, and if it's such a minor deal, then why doesn't FFG just fix it by including all the necessary components?
Quote from: CRKrueger;942047Wow, you get called on your passive-aggressive crap and respond with the SRSBSNS defense, what a complete shock and surprise. :rolleyes:
So about Blades in the Dark, what's the Territory aspect like?
I had much more but realized it would be fruitless, so...
I wasn't insulting you or anyone else, but you either didn't realize that or ignored it, hence my response. It's no secret story/narrative games get some shit around here. That's how it is and I poked fun at it with a real-world friend.
If you want to talk civilly about games (even if we disagree), I'm down. If you want to sling insults, you'll be ignored.
To answer your question about
Blades in the Dark (BitD) we haven't interacted with taking Claims (territory) yet, but my opinion based on reading about it is positive. I'm not sure how much you know about it or if you only know of it, so if you're still interested, hit me up.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;942049Well that actually is a major problem which keeps non-gamers from entering the hobby unless invited, and gamers bitching about games which don't use the dice they already own.
Regardless, the reason it's a big deal here is because the beginner sets do include dice, and FFG does sell their own sets, so the consumer impression will be that those dice sets are complete, which they're not.
Sorry, that's bullshit of the highest order, and if it's such a minor deal, then why doesn't FFG just fix it by including all the necessary components?
I reread my post and realize I probably came off as if I was calling you a moron. If you took it that way, I wasn't meaning to and apologize for that.
While I don't feel the same way, I can see your point. One thing to consider is that the percentile aren't needed in the Beginner Sets (although I could be mistaken; it's been a long time since I used them). If so, there's no need for them. As to not including them in the dice packs, well, there's a good chance a person has d10s already, so why include them and charge more? It's also a pretty safe bet a person can get d10s where they got the
Star Wars dice, so perhaps they banked on that. I'm not sure why they did it, honestly and I'm willing to bet butts would be hurt no matter what.
Let's quickly revisit some quotes:
- "Goddamn, gamers can be a bunch of close minded fucks." - Not directed at anyone, so presumably targeting anyone who expresses misgivings about the FFGSW game.
- "C'mon, brother. It's not an RPG site sacred cow so it must suck." - Not directed at anyone, so dismissing anyone who expresses misgivings about the FFGSW game.
- "One also has to consider the seething vitriol many have for anything remotely close to a player-driven narrative mechanic." - Seething Vitriol, really? Again, not directed at anyone, so targeting anyone who doesn't enjoy narrative mechanics.
- "Haters gonna' hate." - The archetypal dismissal of all criticism.
That's what happens when you scattershot a thread with a passive-aggressive attacks meant to dismiss the arguments of nearly anyone disagreeing with you. Maybe you meant me, maybe you didn't, I'm certainly in the Venn Diagram of "People who disagree with you." Also please don't insult my intelligence by claiming those were jokes. You obviously found them funny, but those were jabs that you meant. Own your shit. I do.
Yeah I made comments like "You only beat the ISD to Dantooine if you roll Double MoneyShot symbols". Yeah, that's snarky. Is it less or more snarky than suggesting that anything other than unlimited Ammo is Actuaries and Accountants, or Advanced Squad Leader, etc? I certainly fired shots in this thread, but I didn't draw.
There are two fundamentally different ways of looking at RPGs.
If I'm looking for a coherent, internally consistent setting, then Story mechanics are useless bullshit.
If you're looking for Plot and Drama driven stories, then detailing aspects of the setting outside of the desires of those creating the narrative is useless bullshit.
When people who greatly prefer one method run into people who greatly prefer the other method, things might heat up, and when it happens on a site specifically set up to defend one method and there are no moderation rules, well elbows are gonna get thrown.
Yeah this place is full of people who play a version of OSR/D&D. Most of these people also play other RPGs as well, narrative or not, and there's narrativists who post here too. JKim and I contend quite a bit, which much fall of blood (or at least ketchup :D), but we also agree on a lot of things. Of course, over the course of many years, JKim has P/A threadcrapped like once or twice
maybe.
Anytime someone complains "This Site only has X" the answer is always the same = Post threads about the games you want to see. If what you want to do is come here to read as much info as possible about Blades in the Dark or the latest Xworld, then yeah not your best choice probably. If you want people to jump in and support your playstyle, Nexus will do it everytime, even when it's not under attack. :D
I'll start a BitD thread.
This site also has plenty of people who like Advanced Squad Leader. :p
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;942066This site also has plenty of people who like Advanced Squad Leader. :p
You checked out the 2nd Edition from the MMP company?
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;942066This site also has plenty of people who like Advanced Squad Leader. :p
Anecdote: Most of the gamers I know don't. But that's not fact, nor is it meant that even a significant group of gamers don't. I was just speaking for MYSELF.
Quote from: CRKrueger;942064Let's quickly revisit some quotes:
- "Goddamn, gamers can be a bunch of close minded fucks." - Not directed at anyone, so presumably targeting anyone who expresses misgivings about the FFGSW game.
- "C'mon, brother. It's not an RPG site sacred cow so it must suck." - Not directed at anyone, so dismissing anyone who expresses misgivings about the FFGSW game.
- "One also has to consider the seething vitriol many have for anything remotely close to a player-driven narrative mechanic." - Seething Vitriol, really? Again, not directed at anyone, so targeting anyone who doesn't enjoy narrative mechanics.
- "Haters gonna' hate." - The archetypal dismissal of all criticism.
That's what happens when you scattershot a thread with a passive-aggressive attacks meant to dismiss the arguments of nearly anyone disagreeing with you. Maybe you meant me, maybe you didn't, I'm certainly in the Venn Diagram of "People who disagree with you." Also please don't insult my intelligence by claiming those were jokes. You obviously found them funny, but those were jabs that you meant. Own your shit. I do.
Yeah I made comments like "You only beat the ISD to Dantooine if you roll Double MoneyShot symbols". Yeah, that's snarky. Is it less or more snarky than suggesting that anything other than unlimited Ammo is Actuaries and Accountants, or Advanced Squad Leader, etc? I certainly fired shots in this thread, but I didn't draw.
There are two fundamentally different ways of looking at RPGs.
If I'm looking for a coherent, internally consistent setting, then Story mechanics are useless bullshit.
If you're looking for Plot and Drama driven stories, then detailing aspects of the setting outside of the desires of those creating the narrative is useless bullshit.
When people who greatly prefer one method run into people who greatly prefer the other method, things might heat up, and when it happens on a site specifically set up to defend one method and there are no moderation rules, well elbows are gonna get thrown.
Yeah this place is full of people who play a version of OSR/D&D. Most of these people also play other RPGs as well, narrative or not, and there's narrativists who post here too. JKim and I contend quite a bit, which much fall of blood (or at least ketchup :D), but we also agree on a lot of things. Of course, over the course of many years, JKim has P/A threadcrapped like once or twice maybe.
Anytime someone complains "This Site only has X" the answer is always the same = Post threads about the games you want to see. If what you want to do is come here to read as much info as possible about Blades in the Dark or the latest Xworld, then yeah not your best choice probably. If you want people to jump in and support your playstyle, Nexus will do it everytime, even when it's not under attack. :D
I'll start a BitD thread.
They were jokes, even if you don't think they are. I don't really care if you believe me. You don't know me, bud. I'm not passive aggressive. If you (or anyone else here) ever questions whether I'm being insulting on purpose, I'm not. If it seems that way, ask and I'll apologize, because, well, I own my shit...
Anyway, I don't say the OSR's shit or insult it's fans. I didn't push an agenda. I stated what I like and why. You regularly ridicule things you don't like but got pissed when snark flew your way. You were rude as hell about the people who enjoy FFG
Star Wars. It's not about hurt feels, it's about you coming across as a jackass. It's not as if you say, "Narrative rules and crazy symbols? Nah, not for me". No, it's more akin to, "A stupid-shit system tied to dumb-ass storygaming crap who's fanboys shoot their loads on each other". Not quotes by you, but they serve my point.
And I have to make it perfectly,
crucially clear that I fully realize the deal on this site. The last place I'd go to have a friendly* discussion about most games I like, is here. It's not a jab, it's so you have no illusions as to my understanding of the tone here. That's fine. Really. I've gone back to RPG.net more often to talk games, because as full-retard as they are about SJW shenanigans, that's where I can find more in common, game-wise.
BUT!!! As much as I think you can be a jerk and as much as you probably feel *insert negative thing* about me, I
do very much appreciate that you and I can smack each other around without being banned. I would love to have this site be my one-stop-shop for all things gaming-talk, but it's not and that's fine. That doesn't mean I hate it here, or think the people or their stuff, but it doesn't mean I won't tease about it.
*meaning the bulk of people posting are into it.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;942073You were rude as hell about the people who enjoy FFG Star Wars.
Let's take a look at what actually happened. I made a few posts asking questions, you guys were responding, there was a Funky Dice kerfluffle, Sommerjon got involved which never helps anything, and aside from a Sommerjon exchange, I basically let the people who played it talk.
I came in with post 86 in which, after posts asking why someone would ever want to care about ammo or fuel in a Star Wars game, I responded, without attacking anyone.
Even up to post 91 I was just discussing, unless you consider "There's a universe of excluded middle between Actuaries and Accountants and "Everything is perfect unless you roll too many Epic Fail symbols". to be a personal attack.
After posts implying that wondering how far a ship can travel is silly, in Post 97 I took some shots at narrativists in general, but I even qualified them to state that FFGSW didn't rate ships speeds in Triumph symbols.
Then we get the "Goddamn, gamers can be a bunch of close minded fucks.", which you responded to in most vigorous agreement. After that, I did get rude, which, frankly, you more than deserved.
Before that, in this thread, you and I were discussing things fairly reasonably I thought and what got us to this point was mainly shit stirred by others. But that's what happens when people do driveby threadcraps, it tends to wind things up a bit.
Tenbones enjoys FFGSW, he's theRPGsite's biggest FFGSW advocate, and I don't think he was offended, pretty sure I would have heard it if he was. :D
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;942066This site also has plenty of people who like Advanced Squad Leader. :p
Ya, I didn't mention it before, but I thought that was a pretty hilarious comment, ironic considering I was into Squad Leader before I got into RPGs in fifth grade. It's neither a bad thing to me, nor a very difficult system to use. I know people who whine about how ASL isn't realistic enough for them. :) But I say that for the irony and humor, not to suggest it's particularly relevant to the thread, except to underline that yes there really are two very different spectrum ends we're talking about.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;942066This site also has plenty of people who like Advanced Squad Leader. :p
This is true. You get right down to business without any of that roleplay nonsense to get in the way of the killing.
Quote from: CRKrueger;942077Let's take a look at what actually happened. I made a few posts asking questions, you guys were responding, there was a Funky Dice kerfluffle, Sommerjon got involved which never helps anything, and aside from a Sommerjon exchange, I basically let the people who played it talk.
I came in with post 86 in which, after posts asking why someone would ever want to care about ammo or fuel in a Star Wars game, I responded, without attacking anyone.
Tenbones enjoys FFGSW, he's theRPGsite's biggest FFGSW advocate, and I don't think he was offended, pretty sure I would have heard it if he was. :D
Actually I'm with you. I do think it's important (for me and my players) to know how much fuel is in the hyperdrive tank. I like to know how many rounds are in your gun etc. It is trivial to add this into the game (and I have). Others in the FFG community have created a ton of rules that have been posted on the official forums that are completely in-synch with making the FFG game a little more granular.
The idea of narrativist rules however being a "thing" and to what degree it becomes onerous to come up with them on the fly is not, in my experience, or even by the rules, as great an issue as it seems. You can simply use the advantage/disadvantage mechanics as numerical resources. It's no more abstract than HP/AC. To the degree that it chaps someone's butt to use them... heh, I can't say anything about that. But I do get that it's not for everyone. I wouldn't even be commenting on FFG Star Wars threads at all if I hadn't had the experience I did with the game. It looks like a pile of shit from the outside. I thought that before I purchased the Beginner Game and ran it. I wasn't even sure about it until I got the main Edge book. After the first combat I ran there (it was a space combat) - we were all hooked.
Quote from: tenbones;942166Actually I'm with you. I do think it's important (for me and my players) to know how much fuel is in the hyperdrive tank. I like to know how many rounds are in your gun etc. It is trivial to add this into the game (and I have). Others in the FFG community have created a ton of rules that have been posted on the official forums that are completely in-synch with making the FFG game a little more granular.
The idea of narrativist rules however being a "thing" and to what degree it becomes onerous to come up with them on the fly is not, in my experience, or even by the rules, as great an issue as it seems. You can simply use the advantage/disadvantage mechanics as numerical resources. It's no more abstract than HP/AC. To the degree that it chaps someone's butt to use them... heh, I can't say anything about that. But I do get that it's not for everyone. I wouldn't even be commenting on FFG Star Wars threads at all if I hadn't had the experience I did with the game. It looks like a pile of shit from the outside. I thought that before I purchased the Beginner Game and ran it. I wasn't even sure about it until I got the main Edge book. After the first combat I ran there (it was a space combat) - we were all hooked.
I wasn't too keen on the funky dice myself, and I admit, not being too quick on the uptake, that I needed a cheat sheet as to what the symbols meant. And I still like to have that sheet around, but I don't really need it. And right now, I'm playing (something I rarely do) in another EoTE campaign, with one other player (because the usual crew has disbanded until summer), and my BH:Assassin (closest thing I could use to show a former Imp. Commando turned Prison Guard, turned BH) has been getting gun 'jams' every single blaster fight of late. It's been hilariously funny and I admit, exciting. One fight had my character scrambling for pistols John Woo style because he'd shoot a goon, and then the weapon was dead/jammed/disabled.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;942066This site also has plenty of people who like Advanced Squad Leader. :p
Off topic. Over on BGG ASL is ranked number 11 in top wargames and number 115 in board games. Has 4500 registered owners and is creeping up on 20000 logged plays there.
Quote from: CRKrueger;942046I actually kind of liked the Funky Dice, but coming up with narrations to explain every single positive or negative complication was tiring after a while.
Having run an Edge of the Empire game and played in a Force and Destiny game, I DO want to touch on this particular point. I don't think I'm going to change anyone's mind, nor do I really care to; but if you're running or playing FFGSW the following words can make things a little smoother in my opinion.
See that bolded text? Don't. Just don't spend that much effort. One of the basic things you can do with the Advantage (at least in FFGSW) is to give a Bonus die to an ally or give a Penalty die to an NPC. So just pass that shit around like candy. Got 3 Advantage? Can't think of anything narratively cool to do? Next PC up gets 3 Bonus dice. Or if you want to get fancy, the next PC up gets a bonus die and you spend 2 Advantage to give a PC of your choice a bonus die on their turn. And that's pretty easy to set up in terms of 'narrative'. "I'm shooting at the Stormtroopers and the supressing fire effect gives the next PC a Bonus die". Or just "I give the next PC a bonus die".
If it's not in combat and you have some Advantage and can't think of anything. Ignore it. Or let the GM give you a small advantage somewhere. The system still works without getting too crazy with it. Every roll doesn't have to be a story, though they should be important.
On the GM/Threat side, 1 Threat = 1 Strain damage to the PCs is easiest. Stress'll fucking kill you man. You can throw around Penalty dice too.
You can really get the game moving if you pare back on needing to narrate every dice roll and save it for moments when a PC has a really good idea for an Advantage or Triumph spend or the GM has a big bad that is really good at what they do.
Thanks to CRKrueger for bringing this up.
That is *exactly* right. I spend less time giving cool narrative shout-outs than just passing Advantages along to the next player. My players *love* getting those sweet booster-dice to their rolls.
This was what I was talking about when I said you can ignore almost all the narrative aspects of the game and reduce it down to pure mechanics.
In Nomine had a blue box insert talking about avoiding letting the Check Digit die throw your game into bizarre extremes. It actively said ignore the 'CD' if it is a menial task and not tied to calculating a system result (such as Song or attunement results). The game also gave advice on keeping Interventions (111 or 666 results) interesting, instead of perpetually apocalyptic, even on menial tasks.
That said, FFG SW has waaaaay too many degree of success axes competing for attention for me. Not what I want as player or GM, even with the power to ignore most of it.
Quote from: Opaopajr;942234In Nomine had a blue box insert talking about avoiding letting the Check Digit die throw your game into bizarre extremes. It actively said ignore the 'CD' if it is a menial task and not tied to calculating a system result (such as Song or attunement results). The game also gave advice on keeping Interventions (111 or 666 results) interesting, instead of perpetually apocalyptic, even on menial tasks.
That said, FFG SW has waaaaay too many degree of success axes competing for attention for me. Not what I want as player or GM, even with the power to ignore most of it.
It's to show degrees of success. It's not for everyone.
Quote from: tenbones;942228That is *exactly* right. I spend less time giving cool narrative shout-outs than just passing Advantages along to the next player. My players *love* getting those sweet booster-dice to their rolls.
This was what I was talking about when I said you can ignore almost all the narrative aspects of the game and reduce it down to pure mechanics.
There have been many times trying to force a narrative result just feels off, so we don't do it. I've even done this with the mechanical aspects, such as when I roll a net 4 Triumph and 8 Advantage against a PC. I'm loathe to just go with a +80 critical and will spread it around to critical, damade to weapons, free maneuvers, etc. We're able to handle these quickly due to practice, so it works for us. That not may be the case for some, which can be a buzz-kill.
Quote from: Krimson;942148This is true. You get right down to business without any of that roleplay nonsense to get in the way of the killing.
Yes, I want different things in a roleplaying game from what I want in a wargame.
Quote from: CRKrueger;942077Let's take a look at what actually happened. I made a few posts asking questions, you guys were responding, there was a Funky Dice kerfluffle, Sommerjon got involved which never helps anything, and aside from a Sommerjon exchange, I basically let the people who played it talk.
I came in with post 86 in which, after posts asking why someone would ever want to care about ammo or fuel in a Star Wars game, I responded, without attacking anyone.
Even up to post 91 I was just discussing, unless you consider "There's a universe of excluded middle between Actuaries and Accountants and "Everything is perfect unless you roll too many Epic Fail symbols". to be a personal attack.
After posts implying that wondering how far a ship can travel is silly, in Post 97 I took some shots at narrativists in general, but I even qualified them to state that FFGSW didn't rate ships speeds in Triumph symbols.
Then we get the "Goddamn, gamers can be a bunch of close minded fucks.", which you responded to in most vigorous agreement. After that, I did get rude, which, frankly, you more than deserved.
Before that, in this thread, you and I were discussing things fairly reasonably I thought and what got us to this point was mainly shit stirred by others. But that's what happens when people do driveby threadcraps, it tends to wind things up a bit.
Tenbones enjoys FFGSW, he's theRPGsite's biggest FFGSW advocate, and I don't think he was offended, pretty sure I would have heard it if he was. :D
Oh, snap. I looked right over this response.
Hmmm, yeah. I see where you could think I was poking at you/others. I was pretty spun-up last night and being snippy, so apologies. Like I said, I wasn't taking a cheap shot but I really don't post here enough (I lurk often, though) for anyone to know my tone. It's rather pointless to take pot-shots at each other over things, because they can escalate quickly and ruin future discourse.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;942061I reread my post and realize I probably came off as if I was calling you a moron. If you took it that way, I wasn't meaning to and apologize for that.
I appreciate the sentiment, but it isn't necessary.
#Vulcan
What's frustrating here is FFG Star Wars is one of the few licensed RPG lines which does a damn fine job of both targeting gamers as well as fans, so little oversights like this are a bigger deal than they otherwise would be. The level of effort it takes to either include percentiles or
design a game which didn't need them is so slight I'm honestly at a loss as to why it wasn't done.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;942061One thing to consider is that the percentile aren't needed in the Beginner Sets (although I could be mistaken; it's been a long time since I used them).
This is true AFAIK. Thing is, the whole point of a 'beginner' set is to encourage players to
continue, so providing content which encourages that is helpful.
Quote from: Michael Gray;942204One of the basic things you can do with the Advantage (at least in FFGSW) is to give a Bonus die to an ally or give a Penalty die to an NPC. So just pass that shit around like candy. Got 3 Advantage? Can't think of anything narratively cool to do? Next PC up gets 3 Bonus dice. Or if you want to get fancy, the next PC up gets a bonus die and you spend 2 Advantage to give a PC of your choice a bonus die on their turn. And that's pretty easy to set up in terms of 'narrative'. "I'm shooting at the Stormtroopers and the supressing fire effect gives the next PC a Bonus die". Or just "I give the next PC a bonus die".
Is this in the book? Because
damn this solves so many problems, solves all of my problems, and almost justifies the existence of Boost/Setback dice (https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/134690-boost-and-setback-dice-vs-difficulty/).
Quote from: Christopher Brady;942252It's to show degrees of success. It's not for everyone.
It's also for degree of success/failure in In Nomine SJG. But mercifully it's just the one d6.
Thinking back on the FFG SW.
Another way to look at it is that the odd dice function much like how other games use oracle systems. And the same advice to not use it for every single action.
Though as noted in another thread on this. At the end of the day all the FFG dice are is a marketing ploy. Propitiatory dice that are pretty much incompatible with any other RPG. Though odd that the dice arent even compatible with their Imperial Assault board game which also uses special dice.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;942296I appreciate the sentiment, but it isn't necessary.
#Vulcan
What's frustrating here is FFG Star Wars is one of the few licensed RPG lines which does a damn fine job of both targeting gamers as well as fans, so little oversights like this are a bigger deal than they otherwise would be. The level of effort it takes to either include percentiles or design a game which didn't need them is so slight I'm honestly at a loss as to why it wasn't done.
This is true AFAIK. Thing is, the whole point of a 'beginner' set is to encourage players to continue, so providing content which encourages that is helpful.
Is this in the book? Because damn this solves so many problems, solves all of my problems, and almost justifies the existence of Boost/Setback dice (https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/134690-boost-and-setback-dice-vs-difficulty/).
Yep! You can use those cubes in a bunch of ways that just keep feeding into the economy! It can get pretty crazy, to be honest, but it feels good when players are boosting each other's actions.
That's a
big part of why I love the system. In most games when it's time to roll, the action moves from the table-centered action to the individual. I've noticed nearly every roll with those funky dice draws the group in and they all work together in figuring out what to do with stuff.
Quote from: Anon Adderlan;942296Is this in the book? Because damn this solves so many problems, solves all of my problems, and almost justifies the existence of Boost/Setback dice (https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/topic/134690-boost-and-setback-dice-vs-difficulty/).
I don't think so. It just seemed to be fairly obvious to us to do this, to speed up combat.
Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;942327Yep! You can use those cubes in a bunch of ways that just keep feeding into the economy! It can get pretty crazy, to be honest, but it feels good when players are boosting each other's actions.
That's a big part of why I love the system. In most games when it's time to roll, the action moves from the table-centered action to the individual. I've noticed nearly every roll with those funky dice draws the group in and they all work together in figuring out what to do with stuff.
This right here! When I ran my very first encounter which was unintentionally starship combat (I wanted to do personal combat first - but oh well) The passing Advantages and trying grab as many boosters as possible really got the group to play very cohesively. It helps when doing group initiative the PC's get to decide the order they go in - so they milked the tactical advantages for all it was worth. It makes all the combat encounters feel very "team oriented".
When we started doing normal combat - we had PC's passing off their Advantages (which I could give narrative descriptors to fairly easy) to the PC playing a sniper - as he blew the heads off of adversaries which would in turn grant certain Advantages based on his rolls to the next in line. The way combat unfolds made it feel like a well-oiled kill-team working in unison. Very very satisfying.
Quote from: tenbones;942359This right here! When I ran my very first encounter which was unintentionally starship combat (I wanted to do personal combat first - but oh well) The passing Advantages and trying grab as many boosters as possible really got the group to play very cohesively. It helps when doing group initiative the PC's get to decide the order they go in - so they milked the tactical advantages for all it was worth. It makes all the combat encounters feel very "team oriented".
When we started doing normal combat - we had PC's passing off their Advantages (which I could give narrative descriptors to fairly easy) to the PC playing a sniper - as he blew the heads off of adversaries which would in turn grant certain Advantages based on his rolls to the next in line. The way combat unfolds made it feel like a well-oiled kill-team working in unison. Very very satisfying.
These moments are pure bliss and a favorite aspect of the game. Oddly enough it wasn't the dice or rules that tripped me up at first, it was this style of play. Having players with access to random "mecha-narrative" rules took getting used to. Most games I've played have teamwork and rules for boosting your party, but I can't think of a game where every roll could have concrete effects everyone else could use. Once I got it down it was full-on fun.
Quote from: Michael Gray;942342I don't think so. It just seemed to be fairly obvious to us to do this, to speed up combat.
It's not? Huhn. And I say this because the cheat sheet I use just lists what the each level of success, not that you have to describe it.
So once again, great in theory, but over designed in practice. All this could be accomplished with 4 kinds, 2 kinds, or even just 1 kind of dice, as demonstrated in 2d20 which is the product of the same designer. And when you have Talents which are specifically linked to certain dice types, players will be encouraged to use them that way, and their application becomes far less flexible and dynamic.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;942395It's not? Huhn. And I say this because the cheat sheet I use just lists what the each level of success, not that you have to describe it.
It's there to extrapolate, but I'm trying to remember if the book says not to worry about narrating if not necessary or says to narrate all the things. I suspect the GM advice is the latter, but I can't remember.
Quote from: Michael Gray;942497It's there to extrapolate, but I'm trying to remember if the book says not to worry about narrating if not necessary or says to narrate all the things. I suspect the GM advice is the latter, but I can't remember.
Bolded for emphasis -
Edge of the Empire - Resolving Advantages and TriumphsQuoteAs with every skill check, Advantages and Triumphs can be spent to gain incidental beneficial effects on a combat check. However, just as the rules governing encounters are somewhat more regimented than the rules governing narrative gameplay, some of the options governing the spending of Advantages and Triumphs are more clearly defined. In encounters, the player controlling the activated character determines how his character spends Advantages and Triumphs unless the GM has a specific reason to decide for him instead.
The first and foremost way to spend Advantages and Triumphs in an attack is to activate a Critical Injury or active weapon qualities. As described on page 158 and 216, each weapon has a Critical Rating that consists of a numeric value. The user can spend that many Advantages to inflict one Critical Injury on the target, in addition to regular effects and damage. Remember, a Critical Injury can only be triggered on a successful hit that deals damage that exceeds the target's soak value. For more information on Critical Injuries, see page 216.
Weapon qualities are special effects and abilities that apply only when using that particular weapon. They come in two forms, active and passive. Active abilities require the user to spend a certain number of Advantages to trigger them. Generally this is two Advantages. although some qualities may require more or less. Passive qualities always grant their effect Qualities may inflict effects on a target, which unless specified otherwise, are always in addition to other effects, Critical injuries, and damage.
In addition to always counting as an additional Successes and Triumphs can be spent to activate these abilities as well. A Triumph may be spent to inflict one Critical Injury (no matter what the Critical Rating of the weapon is) In addition, a Triumph may be spent to activate one weapon quality, no matter how many Advantages it would normally take to do so.
Caveat - there *are* in other parts of the book an emphasis for GM's to give narrative emphasis to these Advantage/Threats and Triumph/Despair. But in almost all cases they emphasize to use them for dramatic results that underpin the mechanical effect of players spending their Advantages/Triumphs and GM's spending their Threats/Despair.
The very first thing in the tables for Advantages/Triumphs have little to do with narrative. It's simply a table of what you can spend your Advantages on.
For 1 Advantage or Triumph you can:
Recover 1 strain (this option may be selected more than once).
Add 0 to the next allied active character's check.
Notice a single important point in the ongoing conflict, such as the location of a blast door's control panel or a weak point on an attack speeder. <---Narrative element! WARNING
Inflict a Critical Injury with a successful attack that deals damage past soak (0 cost may vary).
Activate a weapon quality (0 cost may vary).
For 2 Advantage or a Triumph you can:
Perform an immediate free maneuver that does not exceed the two maneuver per turn limit.
Add 1 Setback to the targeted character's next check.
Add 1 Booster to any allied character's next check, including the active character.
For 2 Advantages or a Triumph you can:
Negate the targeted enemy's defensive bonuses (such as the defense gained from cover, equipment, or performing the Guarded Stance maneuver) until the end of the current round.
Ignore penalizing environmental effects such as inclement weather, zero gravity, or similar effects until the end of the active character's next turn.
When dealing damage to a target, have the attack disable the opponent or one piece of gear rather than dealing wounds or strain. This could include hobbling him temporarily with a shot to the leg, or disabling his comlink. This should be agreed upon by the player and the GM, and the effects are up to the GM
(although the Critical Injury table is a good resource to consult for possible effects). The effects should be temporary, and not too excessive.
Gain + 1 melee or ranged defense until the end of the active character's next turn.
Force the target to drop a melee or ranged weapon it is wielding.
So yeah - narrative options are in there. I don't think they're emphasized nearly as much as crunchy mechanical outcomes. Nor are they even necessary. They're just to give you license to color your results to whatever degree you think is appropriate.
Quote from: Sommerjon;941477EotE FAQ which btw came out before your review. Makes one wonder if it was ignored it because it pokes holes in your ranting.
"However, the Triumph and Despair narrative(Advantage and/or Threat) effects cannot be canceled, so the incredibly potent beneficial or negative effects still occur. "
Quote from: Justin Alexander;941596First: That is not what those quotes say and it's not how the game works.
Second: I double-checked and discovered that you actually re-wrote the quote from the FAQ. There's really only two possible explanations for why you would do that, and neither of them reflect well on you.
EotE FAQ (https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/fe/65/fe65c91d-6a10-470b-8dfc-f78a8227d5fe/swe02_faq_lowres.pdf)
Q.
Does a Failure(symbol) cancel the Success portion of a Triumph(symbol)?
Does a Success(symbol) cancel the Failure portion of a Despair(symbol)?
A.
Yes in both cases. However, the Triumph(symbol) and Despair(symbol)'s narrative effects cannot be canceled, so the incredibly potent beneficial or negative effects still occur. It's even possible to have the narrative effects of both a Triumph(symbol) and Despair(symbol) happen on the same roll, making for especially dramatic results.What did I rewrite? Surely you cannot be meaning the
(Advantage/Threat) that I purposely put in parenthesis and did not italics.
Your precious review says
"(3) Triumph vs. Despair (these don't cancel)"This has never been true. Why you are lying to everyone is beyond me, I just assume your ego got in your way again.
So as far as just Success or Failure is concerned, they cancel out only the part that counts as a traditional Success and Failure compared to the other dice, but the unique effect only those dice have, do not cancel? That makes sense. The math cancels, the narration doesn't.
Now here's a question, can the Success portion of a Triumph symbol be canceled by any other type of die that gives you a Failure, or is only the Despair die that can cancel that Success? It seems like it would have to, otherwise you'd have very odd results.
Quote from: CRKrueger;942663So as far as just Success or Failure is concerned, they cancel out only the part that counts as a traditional Success and Failure compared to the other dice, but the unique effect only those dice have, do not cancel? That makes sense. The math cancels, the narration doesn't.
Now here's a question, can the Success portion of a Triumph symbol be canceled by any other type of die that gives you a Failure, or is only the Despair die that can cancel that Success? It seems like it would have to, otherwise you'd have very odd results.
Yes, a regular Failure can cancel the Success portion of a Triumph and vice versa. But nothing cancels out the...'narrative' portion. Yes, this means you could possibly have a Triumph and a Despair on the same roll have effects.
So the guy in the A-wing gets shot to pieces... on his way out he crashes into the bridge of the Executor causing it to collide with the Death Star II!!!!
Quote from: Sommerjon;942661EotE FAQ (https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/filer_public/fe/65/fe65c91d-6a10-470b-8dfc-f78a8227d5fe/swe02_faq_lowres.pdf)
Q.
Does a Failure(symbol) cancel the Success portion of a Triumph(symbol)?
Does a Success(symbol) cancel the Failure portion of a Despair(symbol)?
A.
Yes in both cases. However, the Triumph(symbol) and Despair(symbol)’s narrative effects cannot be canceled, so the incredibly potent beneficial or negative effects still occur. It’s even possible to have the narrative effects of both a Triumph(symbol) and Despair(symbol) happen on the same roll, making for especially dramatic results.
What did I rewrite? Surely you cannot be meaning the (Advantage/Threat) that I purposely put in parenthesis and did not italics.
Your precious review says
"(3) Triumph vs. Despair (these don’t cancel)"
This has never been true. Why you are lying to everyone is beyond me, I just assume your ego got in your way again.
Triumph and Despair symbols cannot be cancelled. It's that simple.
Quote from: tenbones;942672So the guy in the A-wing gets shot to pieces... on his way out he crashes into the bridge of the Executor causing it to collide with the Death Star II!!!!
While I'd never do that to PCs (if they were a bridge crew) that's a fantastic example of how to use Triumphs and Despairs!
Quote from: CRKrueger;942046It's interesting though, because these narrative games don't necessarily have Less rules, they just have Different ones.
You hit on the reason why I said what you quoted in your sig.
Me to the Storygame designer: I
Quoteplayed Star Fleet Battles and learned how to use MCIDS from rule E6 to defeat plasma torpedoes.. I puzzled out the intricacies of rule 29.5 in the Universe RPG. Your game rules has a the same stench and just as fucking obsessed with mechanics.
Quote from: tenbones;942672So the guy in the A-wing gets shot to pieces... on his way out he crashes into the bridge of the Executor causing it to collide with the Death Star II!!!!
Wild die result of 1 for Imperial Gunners or Wild die result of 6 (and possibly exploding) for A-Wing pilot.
Quote from: jeff37923;942718Wild die result of 1 for Imperial Gunners or Wild die result of 6 (and possibly exploding) for A-Wing pilot.
But can you do it all in one roll? MUAHAHAHAHAH!
Quote from: tenbones;942813But can you do it all in one roll? MUAHAHAHAHAH!
...
Yes? :D
Quote from: Michael Gray;942814...
Yes? :D
/needle screeches off the vinyl...
whut?
Quote from: tenbones;942819/needle screeches off the vinyl...
whut?
The Wild Die in d6 Star Wars is just one of your extra dice. If you roll a one the GM can intro a complication (or just take out the Wild Die and your highest die if they can't think of anything good), if you roll a 6 it explodes and keeps exploding on further 6's. You could totally have that be the consequence for Imperial Gunners rolling a 1, they kill the A-Wing but it crashes into the Executor's bridge and it just happened to do enough damage to cripple the Executor. The converse case (where it's the A-wing pilot rolling) would be a bit harder unless they wanted a heroic suicide or something.
Quote from: Michael Gray;942821The Wild Die in d6 Star Wars is just one of your extra dice. If you roll a one the GM can intro a complication (or just take out the Wild Die and your highest die if they can't think of anything good), if you roll a 6 it explodes and keeps exploding on further 6's. You could totally have that be the consequence for Imperial Gunners rolling a 1, they kill the A-Wing but it crashes into the Executor's bridge and it just happened to do enough damage to cripple the Executor. The converse case (where it's the A-wing pilot rolling) would be a bit harder unless they wanted a heroic suicide or something.
Right right. I knew that about the Wild-Die. But I think mechanically this is beyond the mechanical-scope, narrative powers-be-damned, assigning that to a 1-in-6 chance of the Wild-Die as intended. Sure - maybe for the A-wing to eat shit and die.
Likewise - you'd have to have a massive stack of 6's exploding to have a ship-scale craft colliding with a Capital-scale vessel to cause it that kind of damage to lose control to that degree. I'm not saying it couldn't happen - I'm saying it's so ridiculously improbable (by the numbers) that the only power in the universe making that happen is the Narrative insertion.
I've run WEG Star Wars, my gut reaction is that this level of "narrative" control is not as emphasized in the system. I'd be interested to know how other WEG GM's used the Wild Die at their tables.
Quote from: estar;942706I played Star Fleet Battles and learned how to use MCIDS from rule E6 to defeat plasma torpedoes.. I puzzled out the intricacies of rule 29.5 in the Universe RPG. Your game rules has a the same stench and just as fucking obsessed with mechanics.
My feeling on this is that most of the rules in Star Fleet Battles are what I would call "actually about something in the game universe" and most of them I actually find interesting and welcome (except for the sections we felt were annoying, which we just didn't use with no unwelcome side-effects). Meanwhile the crunchy meta/narrative mechanics I've been reading about in these threads seems about equally complex, but harder for me to think about (and harder to want to) because they don't seem to be about anything in the setting, and are in fact about things I'm pretty sure I don't want in a game, and the things I do want in the game (things actually modeling the setting) seem missing. And also, I have done (and sometimes still do) some weird dice interpretation which includes vague abstract determination of what happens, and even "momentum", but I just do that in my head when using dice to add some external randomness to try to determine/intuit what happens with complex situations that I don't have rules or data for. That is, I think I can do and do do those kinds of roles without having any rules for them, but I tend to only do them for the parts of the game situation that are out-of-scope for rules. So ya, these narrative dice games seem like not having the part I usually like to focus on, and then adding complex rules for things that don't use complex rules. Except, having rules clearly is designed to allow structured play involving the players not just the GM, in the mushy abstract dice game, which is also something I can see being an interesting experiment that some people would and clearly do like, but that I'm sure isn't going to be something that can replace the literal sim rules that I like to focus on.
It is interesting to see though that the people who are into these games have written practically the exact same thing, but opposite. i.e.:
I say the narrative stuff is usually unwanted and doesn't need rules, can be improvised if wanted.
FFG players say the detailed literal rules are unwanted and don't need to exist, can be improvised if wanted.
Quote from: tenbones;942822Right right. I knew that about the Wild-Die. But I think mechanically this is beyond the mechanical-scope, narrative powers-be-damned, assigning that to a 1-in-6 chance of the Wild-Die as intended. Sure - maybe for the A-wing to eat shit and die.
Likewise - you'd have to have a massive stack of 6's exploding to have a ship-scale craft colliding with a Capital-scale vessel to cause it that kind of damage to lose control to that degree. I'm not saying it couldn't happen - I'm saying it's so ridiculously improbable (by the numbers) that the only power in the universe making that happen is the Narrative insertion.
I've run WEG Star Wars, my gut reaction is that this level of "narrative" control is not as emphasized in the system. I'd be interested to know how other WEG GM's used the Wild Die at their tables.
I would say that level of narrative control isn't really implied in FFG either, at least not on the level of taking out a 5 mile long cap ship with a snubfighter. For much the same reasons; you'd never do enough damage.
Quote from: tenbones;942822Right right. I knew that about the Wild-Die. But I think mechanically this is beyond the mechanical-scope, narrative powers-be-damned, assigning that to a 1-in-6 chance of the Wild-Die as intended. Sure - maybe for the A-wing to eat shit and die.
Likewise - you'd have to have a massive stack of 6's exploding to have a ship-scale craft colliding with a Capital-scale vessel to cause it that kind of damage to lose control to that degree. I'm not saying it couldn't happen - I'm saying it's so ridiculously improbable (by the numbers) that the only power in the universe making that happen is the Narrative insertion.
I've run WEG Star Wars, my gut reaction is that this level of "narrative" control is not as emphasized in the system. I'd be interested to know how other WEG GM's used the Wild Die at their tables.
So... as far as the A-Wing taking out the ISD, it's not really that unfeasible.
A-Wing going all-out gets hit and has to make a maneuver check while skimming along the surface of the ISD. Fails the roll, collision result. 10D (All out speed) + 3D (Head-on collision) = 13D to the A-wing. Puff. HOWEVER; the ISD takes the same damage from a head-on, so it's 13D-6D (scale mod) = 7D damage vs 7D hull. Assume the damage exceeds by 16, and you have yourself a mechanically occurring A-Wing ISD kill.
In the Narrative, George the GM says "The A-wing spins out of control into the bridge of the Star Destroyer. A chain reaction bursts down through the command superstructure and reaches the power core. You go out in a blaze of glory, having blasted hundreds of imperial scum to oblivion with you." The players high-five.
However, the point of all that being something to do with the wild die and there not being wild dice on damage, well.. /shrug
Quote from: Panzerkraken;942833So... as far as the A-Wing taking out the ISD, it's not really that unfeasible.
A-Wing going all-out gets hit and has to make a maneuver check while skimming along the surface of the ISD. Fails the roll, collision result. 10D (All out speed) + 3D (Head-on collision) = 13D to the A-wing. Puff. HOWEVER; the ISD takes the same damage from a head-on, so it's 13D-6D (scale mod) = 7D damage vs 7D hull. Assume the damage exceeds by 16, and you have yourself a mechanically occurring A-Wing ISD kill.
However, the point of all that being something to do with the wild die and there not being wild dice on damage, well.. /shrug
So one A-wing can KO an ISD simply by damage on a good crash damage roll (without even hitting anyplace special)?
Quote from: Skarg;942836So one A-wing can KO an ISD simply by damage on a good crash damage roll (without even hitting anyplace special)?
Yup.
Statistically, though, the spread will probably only be enough to cause light damage. Also, if the fighter is coming in and the ISD has a chance to put shields in the way, then it adds another 3D to the resist roll and would probably shrug the ram off.
Quote from: Panzerkraken;942838Yup.
Statistically, though, the spread will probably only be enough to cause light damage. Also, if the fighter is coming in and the ISD has a chance to put shields in the way, then it adds another 3D to the resist roll and would probably shrug the ram off.
Of course if it's ALSO being engaged by a whole bunch of Mon Cal Cruisers...
Quote from: Panzerkraken;942838Yup.
Statistically, though, the spread will probably only be enough to cause light damage. Also, if the fighter is coming in and the ISD has a chance to put shields in the way, then it adds another 3D to the resist roll and would probably shrug the ram off.
Yeah that's how I was looking at it. It would be a *very very* difficult roll to make.
And for the record - I was being fairly hyperbolic about this as an example for FFG's Star Wars. But I think that system would more aptly suit this than WEG's strictly by mechanics. Which is weird for me to say.
The problem, of course, with the example is there is literally, no chance, Zero, of an A-wing taking out the Executor. What, there's no auxiliary bridge, no separate CIC? So the event is completely for the purposes of and here's the thing, not even Story. There was absolutely no need to take out the Executor, it would have been blown up with the Death Star. How many normal ISDs were there, at least 20. The several thousand TIE fighters those ISD's would launch were far more of a threat to a scattered small-ship fleet than the Executor.
Someone wanted to film a giant arrow plowing into a Death Star so we get the A-wing fiasco. That's it.
Even for a narrative system, that's a bit much, unless you're playing satirically. Maybe if you rolled 7 Triumphs. :D
It's *because* of the very solid points you just illustrated that you could do it with a single Triumph. It's there for narrative effect.
Who in the *fuck* is going to go toe-to-toe with a Super-Star Destroyer? Now I can see that in terms of having the Executor being in the scene raining down destruction and the GM using that as an environmental setback. Unless the PC's are in direct control over the capital-ships or they're balls-out crazy, it's destined for backdrop fun.
Edit: Who *DIDN'T* say "WHOA!" when that scene hit the screen?
Quote from: tenbones;942852It's *because* of the very solid points you just illustrated that you could do it with a single Triumph. It's there for narrative effect.
Who in the *fuck* is going to go toe-to-toe with a Super-Star Destroyer? Now I can see that in terms of having the Executor being in the scene raining down destruction and the GM using that as an environmental setback. Unless the PC's are in direct control over the capital-ships or they're balls-out crazy, it's destined for backdrop fun.
Edit: Who *DIDN'T* say "WHOA!" when that scene hit the screen?
The explosion was impressive, but at the same time, I thought "takes out the bridge, ok maybe, causes a nosedive into the Death Star...I dunno that was kinda stupid". Then as we got to, what Palpatine called "his finest troops" being taken out with rocks and spears thrown by Shih-Tzu's, while Chewie does the "Tarzan Yell" I realized we were in full-blown cartoon-land, and just hoped they'd get the camera back on Luke as soon as possible, because the rest was edging towards unwatchable by comparison.
But, if a single Triumph lets you take out the Executor with an A-wing can you really tell me that the narrative aspect doesn't trump all in this system?
Let's be clear here, heh. There is a *huge* difference between the conceits of the movie vs. how *I* run my SW-games. I'm just using the system to justify the silly dramatic shit in the movies as an example.
What a Triumph as a narrative element is represented to you, me, someone else is the subjective part based on what kinda game you're running. My SW games are pretty fucking gritty. I don't have a lot of Force users, I play in the Old Republic - lots of Mercs, Bounty Hunters, Pirates, Killers, Thieves, smugglin, skullduggin, Imperial spies and shit like that. I honestly don't care at all for the modern movie-era of the setting.
I ignore it completely. I suppose the litmus test for Triumphs for me are based on the scale of the encounter. Bigger the stakes/scale - the bigger the effect.
Edit: If Return of the Jedi were one of my campaigns - The Death Star II would blown up, the Emperor would have died. Darth Vader would have died. Thrawn would have arrived, took command and fucking genocided the Ewoks and killed all the rebels anyhow.
Quote from: estar;942706Me to the Storygame designer: I played Star Fleet Battles and learned how to use MCIDS from rule E6 to defeat plasma torpedoes.. I puzzled out the intricacies of rule 29.5 in the Universe RPG. Your game rules has a the same stench and just as fucking obsessed with mechanics.
Except that in Universe alot of that mechanics is front loaded. Once you know parts of the steps you dont need to again.
Example: Paint Gun (my favourite) range to hits and terrain mod are all front loaded. To I know at range 12 I have a base 10 to hit with terrain mod of 4. Say we are on Barren Flat terrain then we know thats a level 2 so the to hit is a measly 2% + 9 for for skill 3 which is also allways known. So to hit of 11%.
Its not as complex as you make it out to be. Which is rather funny as Universe is a very robust system and has one of the most complex chargens. But it also front loads alot of stuff during chargen.
Quote from: CRKrueger;942851The problem, of course, with the example is there is literally, no chance, Zero, of an A-wing taking out the Executor.
Someone wanted to film a giant arrow plowing into a Death Star so we get the A-wing fiasco. That's it.
Even for a narrative system, that's a bit much, unless you're playing satirically. Maybe if you rolled 7 Triumphs. :D
I allways viewed it as the A-Wing hit the bridge and cause some sort of catastrophic navigation failure resulting in the lawn dart. Or blew the lifters and gravity did the rest. Possibly both.
The books though love to point out that there was rampant sabotage of the designs of all manner of Imperial equipment introducing tiny little exploitable flaws. Or just shoddy cost cutting and slave labour introducing unforeseen flaws.
What seems a bit odd still though is the Executor instantly pitches over and lawn darts. Which leads to my personal assumption nav and or lift failed spectacularly.
Quote from: tenbones;942852It's there for Who in the *fuck* is going to go toe-to-toe with a Super-Star Destroyer?
I can think of three people in my own Star Wars game.
So, if there were, say, droid-piloted kamikaze A-Wings, how many kamikaze collisions would it take to destroy one ISD by generic damage? (Of course, perhaps many others would be shot down by TIE fighters or ISD weapons before hitting.)
I ask because it surprises me. My impression was that you could probably crash a hundred or more fighters into an ISD and there would be no chance of actually destroying it, as it looks like a big wedge of massive armor and weapons, so I'd expect only damage to whatever fighter-sized thing was hit. I'd expect the results to be entirely about hit location, and needing something like in ROTJ to really take one out of action.
Quote from: tenbones;942852It's *because* of the very solid points you just illustrated that you could do it with a single Triumph. It's there for narrative effect.
Who in the *fuck* is going to go toe-to-toe with a Super-Star Destroyer? Now I can see that in terms of having the Executor being in the scene raining down destruction and the GM using that as an environmental setback. Unless the PC's are in direct control over the capital-ships or they're balls-out crazy, it's destined for backdrop fun.
See I'd say that should depend on what the actual odds are. If one fighter crash could do it, then I'd expect droid kamikaze squadrons, as I assume fighters are ridiculously more expendable than ISDs. If they're not, then ISDs turn into things that are supposed to seem super tough, but really are not. Then instead of awesome enemies to face, you really have lame enemies, and the glorious adventures turn out to be just par for the course.
QuoteEdit: Who *DIDN'T* say "WHOA!" when that scene hit the screen?
As I recall, I was surprised and may have thought "whoa... really?" but also thought "well that's pretty silly - it wasn't anywhere near the Death Star!"
Just trying to remember, wasn't the shields down on the ISD? Weren't the commanders, being overconfident until they saw the poor guy barreling at them, screaming to raise the shields?
Quote from: Christopher Brady;942949Just trying to remember, wasn't the shields down on the ISD? Weren't the commanders, being overconfident until they saw the poor guy barreling at them, screaming to raise the shields?
They blew up the Executors bridge deflector shield. The captain orders to focus forward fire to protect. But too late as seconds later the A-Wing smacks into it.
Quote from: Skarg;942941So, if there were, say, droid-piloted kamikaze A-Wings, how many kamikaze collisions would it take to destroy one ISD by generic damage? (Of course, perhaps many others would be shot down by TIE fighters or ISD weapons before hitting.)
I ask because it surprises me. My impression was that you could probably crash a hundred or more fighters into an ISD and there would be no chance of actually destroying it, as it looks like a big wedge of massive armor and weapons, so I'd expect only damage to whatever fighter-sized thing was hit. I'd expect the results to be entirely about hit location, and needing something like in ROTJ to really take one out of action.
In the battle they show a couple of times fighters crashing into regular star destroyers to no effect.
The A-wing smacks into the bridge the Rebels just blew the shield off of and then see my comments earlier on thoughts of whatever happened to the systems to cause it to promptly pitch over and fall. Re-watching the scene I am getting to really think that the lifts were blown out and the Executor lawn darted due to gravity. Possibly add in loss of nav or other factors.
The main point is that it was a very unlikely chain of events in quick succession. The equivalent of a critical on a d100. Followed by something REALLY important, possibly several, blowing out from said critical.
Otherwise they probably could have smacked fighters into it or a regular destroyer all day and probably just dent it up some. If even that.
Quote from: Omega;942965In the battle they show a couple of times fighters crashing into regular star destroyers to no effect.
Yep.
QuoteThe A-wing smacks into the bridge the Rebels just blew the shield off of and then see my comments earlier on thoughts of whatever happened to the systems to cause it to promptly pitch over and fall. Re-watching the scene I am getting to really think that the lifts were blown out and the Executor lawn darted due to gravity. Possibly add in loss of nav or other factors.
It moves really quickly considering it's size and that they're only near a small moon and a smaller Death Star. I can see that speed being due to the Star Wars style artificial gravity (and/or ship hover) system completely malfunctioning, though it seems like it'd need to be Force magic and/or sabotage and/or mega-incompetence to have that be a possible result of one bridge blowing up on a ship that size. Even a 1/100 chance of that happening seems a bit much considering how enormous that thing is.
But even if the ship were spinning out of control, it doesn't look to me like before the loss of control it was anywhere near close enough to the Death Star to randomly crash into it like that (or to fall by the DS's gravity onto it). It reminds me a bit of accidents in CHiPs where a sudden lapse of safety leads to cars flying through the air and exploding. (https://youtu.be/MDSH-PDOkbA)
QuoteThe main point is that it was a very unlikely chain of events in quick succession. The equivalent of a critical on a d100. Followed by something REALLY important, possibly several, blowing out from said critical.
Otherwise they probably could have smacked fighters into it or a regular destroyer all day and probably just dent it up some. If even that.
That's what I thought too, and why I was asking about the standard damage amounts for crashing a fighter into one.
Quote from: Omega;942964They blew up the Executors bridge deflector shield. The captain orders to focus forward fire to protect. But too late as seconds later the A-Wing smacks into it.
OK, that's what I remembered. Which is why my young mine accepted it.
So basically four things happen in quick succession.
1: Rebels blow out the bridge shields.
2: Seconds later an A-wing gets its drive and/or nav hit and loses control.
3: The A-Wing careens into the unprotected bridge purely by chance.
4: It causes some sort of catastrophic systems failure that blows out the lift for sure and probably the nav as well. Causing it to fall and lawn dart.
This can and actually did happen to me in Star Frontiers. My battleship took a hit that took out the ICM system. A fighter that was buzzing us got clipped and had its ADR taken out so its got no way of slowing now. Fighter pilot says screw this and decides to ram. So has to to make a roll to line it up otherwise will miss due to SF space combat distances being a-lot larger. Beats my dodge roll and smacks into my Battleship. It is a mere 1d10 damage to my ship with 120. But just happens to nail Navigation which takes out all maneuvering and my Battleship promptly swerves into the planet I had just initiated orbit around for a slingshot maneuver. (Losing Nav meant the ship might turn randomly and sure enough that is what happened.)
I love Star Frontiers. Even when the damage table hates me. :cool:
So can the system old or new allow for freakish things like that? Pretty sure WEG and FFG both can. Not sure about the others?
I have a question as I do plan to run an SW game soon, and I am torn between WEG's 1e and FFG - which one has better, in your opinion, starship combat? By better in this question I mean more modular, yet still accessible starship design too I guess.
From the little experience I had it is a toss up since the systems are so different.
If you can find then I believe it was Tramp Traders for WEG and Starships of the Galaxy for d20 had ship construction rules and I thought the ship combat in the WEG version was good when I GMed it way back. I've been told D6 Space Ships is backwards compatible with WEG SW. But havent seen so cant verify. The FFG version I didnt see any ship combat as a player so cant really say. There is ship construction rules though. There were two things I was interested in seeing. But unfortunately neither happened in the session.
Addendum. One of my players has the core book for Edge of Empire. So flipped to the ship section and had a glance through quick. Fairly detailed without getting overcomplex from what I am seeing so far. And it does as I guessed it would and uses overall the main combat rules. I'll look into it more when chance and time allow.
Quote from: Omega;943156From the little experience I had it is a toss up since the systems are so different.
If you can find then I believe it was Tramp Traders for WEG and Starships of the Galaxy for d20 had ship construction rules and I thought the ship combat in the WEG version was good when I GMed it way back. I've been told D6 Space Ships is backwards compatible with WEG SW. But havent seen so cant verify. The FFG version I didnt see any ship combat as a player so cant really say. There is ship construction rules though. There were two things I was interested in seeing. But unfortunately neither happened in the session.
D6 space is open source now, so it's free on DTRPG. There's also a fan-supported update based on something or other that brings the WEG Star Wars up to date and stats out the newer timelines. It's called Star Wars REUP, I'll let you google it yourself, but the link at d6-holocron is for the 512 page pdf. It includes the starship modification rules IIRC.
Anyone know which is superior, the aforementioned REUP book vs the Classic Adventures rules?
Quote from: AaronBrown99;943309Anyone know which is superior, the aforementioned REUP book vs the Classic Adventures rules?
Its a matter of preference. You can read about the 1e vs 2e R&E debates all over the internet and they all pretty much apply here too.