Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;941961.I wonder how Blades in the Dark would be received?

How is the development going btw ? I remember getting really excited by it one year or so ago. The idea of having a char sheet for your crew, together with the city factions network, is neat. Also, healing stress by engaging in vices.

Quote from: Skarg;941888There are several levels of possible detail between having different types of mechanical failures, and not really tracking any details at all and having everything from malfunctions to aiming and dodging and cover and The Force represented by abstract dice that take none of that into account. When the game includes how many rounds are in each type of weapon, how likely a gun is to malfunction, its accuracy properties, the positions of the combatants and available cover, their armor, physical condition, skills, stances and actions, then all of things become actual elements of play that can be played with in ways that make sense. When none of those things have any stats or rules, those things either don't exist, have no effect, or have an invented-on-the-spot effect. In the examples in the sample with the pictures of the dice, clearly it's the generic dice, not really taking the situation into account much at all, and then the details are afterthoughts that sound plausible as if things like armor were taken into account, but they're not except possibly if they were theoretically somehow fudged by someone into the number of dice to roll.

That honestly sounds like ASL (Advanced Squad Leader) level stuff, overly complex and thoroughly unimportant in the grand scheme of things.  To me.

YMMV.

Quote from: Warboss Squee;941897Goddamn, gamers can be a bunch of close minded fucks.

Tell me about it.  I'm sure as fuck not perfect, but I love trying something new, even if it doesn't work out in the end.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;941995That honestly sounds like ASL (Advanced Squad Leader) level stuff, overly complex and thoroughly unimportant in the grand scheme of things.  To me.

YMMV.

My view is the opposite of what yours and this style of game design seem to be. Details like that to me are what make a game both interesting and actually about what the game says it is about, and their absence is what to me is missing the part that interests me (and the part that I need to feel like I'm actually facing the supposed game situation) - playing a game that represents the detailed cause & effect of the situation in a consistent way.

As for complexity, what I've been reading here and in Spike's thread sounds actually more complex than TFT or the GURPS Basic Set (which include most/all of those details, and/or more), so I'm not sure what one gains by having the complexity ignore the situation details and be about abstract things, except freedom to make up stuff, which I take is the point, though then I'm not sure why it needs to be so complex - I can run a game by just rolling dice and intuiting/inventing what it means all day without any rules at all. Oh, I guess that's so you can have some fairness about who gets to invent what happens next. I can see that having some appeal, but it is really a different kind of game than what I generally am interested in.

Quote from: Itachi;941982How is the development going btw ? I remember getting really excited by it one year or so ago. The idea of having a char sheet for your crew, together with the city factions network, is neat. Also, healing stress by engaging in vices.

Fantasticly! The final PDF version (minus final art and any editing catches done before it goes to print) is slated for release is slated for a January 30th release. It is late but John Harper's run an astounding KS. He's been in constant touch, taken feedback into account, given increasingly finished update PDFs and little snippets to enhance the game. It was apparently going to be 170 pages, IRC. It's now going to be around 300? I forget the exact page count but we're essentially getting the second edition as the first release.

As to playing it, we were finally able to (our awesome FFG's Star Wars has been going for over a year with now with 1,000 XP+ characters) and it was a blast! I ran a score for a crew of Shadows (thieves, spies & saboteurs) consisting of a Lurk (sneaky guy) and Whisper (ghostly guy). We interacted with the system fully with few snags (the regular learning a new game) and came up with some great world-building. It's a game I'm very much looking forward to in final form. If you have any questions, I'm more than happy to discuss them. Also, in case you don't know about it, there's a great community on G+ that's been super-helpful.

Quote from: CRKrueger;941975You mean as opposed to: Oh, it's got new Story Mechanics, it must be the greatest thing ever!

You mean as opposed to the oddly unsettling sexual fetish some have for anything remotely close to a player-driven narrative mechanic?

...and fanbois gonna come all over themselves.

See how that stupid shit works?

People who love OOC Storytelling Mechanics will like it, people who prefer IC Roleplaying not quite so much.

Wow, thou doth protest too much!

Quote from: Christopher Brady;941995Tell me about it.  I'm sure as fuck not perfect, but I love trying something new, even if it doesn't work out in the end.

I tried Fate, various X-world flavors, played a few sessions of 2d20, ran some MSH.  I went pretty heavy into WFRP3, which is kind of FFGSW's ancestor.

I actually kind of liked the Funky Dice, but coming up with narrations to explain every single positive or negative complication was tiring after a while.  It wasn't the funky dice or the cards and counters that killed WFRP3 for us, it was the Mooks, Range Bands, and weird loopholes with spellcasting.

Experience has taught me there's not a Zone or Range Band system I can't break (ie. come up with a combination of NPCs, position and distance that makes it difficult to determine PC movement) given some trivially basic encounters.  Range numbers will always be clearer and simpler.

It's interesting though, because these narrative games don't necessarily have Less rules, they just have Different ones.  Take for example Itachi's response.  He wants to check out the mechanics for narrating how his character reduces Stress by engaging in Vices.  If I played a crime game, my Hitman would enjoy sampling the New Girls at Mama Chang's House of Silk when they come in, I just don't need mechanics for the effect.  Instead, when I get into a vehicle, I generally want to know how far this thing will go before I need to stop.  I don't care what the answer is, but I'd like one.  Crazy I know.

It all comes down to the most basic assumption of the game:  
1. Is it providing rules to detail the reality or verisimilitude of a world.
Or
2. Is it providing rules to detail the creation of stories in that world.

If #2, then many things are going to be measured with Plotinium, just be papered over to be handled through the narration mechanics as Complications or whatever.  In place of those rules, data, whatever, to allow deeper engagement with the setting, you will have new rules dealing with the OOC decisions, allowing deeper engagement with the story.

I'm sure the character level action will be useless to me, but Blades in the Dark might actually be interesting if it has an abstracted system for taking over streets, businesses, criminal enterprises, gangs etc.  Abstract isn't a problem for me, I don't need Harnmanor or Fusion, Fire, Steel level of detail as long as it's based on something other than the Needs of the Story, which I kind of doubt, unfortunately.

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;942041Wow, thou doth protest too much!

Wow, you get called on your passive-aggressive crap and respond with the SRSBSNS defense, what a complete shock and surprise. :rolleyes:

So about Blades in the Dark, what's the Territory aspect like?

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;941896But bitching that FFGmakes a game that uses percentiles but doesn't come with percentile dice? That's a moronic complaint unless you bitch that nearly every RPG around doesn't include dice.

Well that actually is a major problem which keeps non-gamers from entering the hobby unless invited, and gamers bitching about games which don't use the dice they already own.

Regardless, the reason it's a big deal here is because the beginner sets do include dice, and FFG does sell their own sets, so the consumer impression will be that those dice sets are complete, which they're not.

Sorry, that's bullshit of the highest order, and if it's such a minor deal, then why doesn't FFG just fix it by including all the necessary components?

Quote from: CRKrueger;942047Wow, you get called on your passive-aggressive crap and respond with the SRSBSNS defense, what a complete shock and surprise. :rolleyes:

So about Blades in the Dark, what's the Territory aspect like?

I had much more but realized it would be fruitless, so...

I wasn't insulting you or anyone else, but you either didn't realize that or ignored it, hence my response. It's no secret story/narrative games get some shit around here. That's how it is and I poked fun at it with a real-world friend.

If you want to talk civilly about games (even if we disagree), I'm down. If you want to sling insults, you'll be ignored.

To answer your question about Blades in the Dark (BitD) we haven't interacted with taking Claims (territory) yet, but my opinion based on reading about it is positive. I'm not sure how much you know about it or if you only know of it, so if you're still interested, hit me up.

Quote from: Anon Adderlan;942049Well that actually is a major problem which keeps non-gamers from entering the hobby unless invited, and gamers bitching about games which don't use the dice they already own.

Regardless, the reason it's a big deal here is because the beginner sets do include dice, and FFG does sell their own sets, so the consumer impression will be that those dice sets are complete, which they're not.

Sorry, that's bullshit of the highest order, and if it's such a minor deal, then why doesn't FFG just fix it by including all the necessary components?

I reread my post and realize I probably came off as if I was calling you a moron. If you took it that way, I wasn't meaning to and apologize for that.

While I don't feel the same way, I can see your point. One thing to consider is that the percentile aren't needed in the Beginner Sets (although I could be mistaken; it's been a long time since I used them). If so, there's no need for them. As to not including them in the dice packs, well, there's a good chance a person has d10s already, so why include them and charge more? It's also a pretty safe bet a person can get d10s where they got the Star Wars dice, so perhaps they banked on that. I'm not sure why they did it, honestly and I'm willing to bet butts would be hurt no matter what.

Let's quickly revisit some quotes:

• "Goddamn, gamers can be a bunch of close minded fucks." - Not directed at anyone, so presumably targeting anyone who expresses misgivings about the FFGSW game.
  
• "C'mon, brother. It's not an RPG site sacred cow so it must suck." - Not directed at anyone, so dismissing anyone who expresses misgivings about the FFGSW game.
  
• "One also has to consider the seething vitriol many have for anything remotely close to a player-driven narrative mechanic." - Seething Vitriol, really?  Again, not directed at anyone, so targeting anyone who doesn't enjoy narrative mechanics.
  
• "Haters gonna' hate." - The archetypal dismissal of all criticism.
  

That's what happens when you scattershot a thread with a passive-aggressive attacks meant to dismiss the arguments of nearly anyone disagreeing with you.  Maybe you meant me, maybe you didn't, I'm certainly in the Venn Diagram of "People who disagree with you."  Also please don't insult my intelligence by claiming those were jokes.  You obviously found them funny, but those were jabs that you meant.  Own your shit. I do.

Yeah I made comments like "You only beat the ISD to Dantooine if you roll Double MoneyShot symbols".  Yeah, that's snarky.  Is it less or more snarky than suggesting that anything other than unlimited Ammo is Actuaries and Accountants, or Advanced Squad Leader, etc?  I certainly fired shots in this thread, but I didn't draw.

There are two fundamentally different ways of looking at RPGs.  
If I'm looking for a coherent, internally consistent setting, then Story mechanics are useless bullshit.  
If you're looking for Plot and Drama driven stories, then detailing aspects of the setting outside of the desires of those creating the narrative is useless bullshit.
When people who greatly prefer one method run into people who greatly prefer the other method, things might heat up, and when it happens on a site specifically set up to defend one method and there are no moderation rules, well elbows are gonna get thrown.

Yeah this place is full of people who play a version of OSR/D&D.  Most of these people also play other RPGs as well, narrative or not, and there's narrativists who post here too.  JKim and I contend quite a bit, which much fall of blood (or at least ketchup ), but we also agree on a lot of things.  Of course, over the course of many years, JKim has P/A threadcrapped like once or twice maybe.

Anytime someone complains "This Site only has X" the answer is always the same = Post threads about the games you want to see.  If what you want to do is come here to read as much info as possible about Blades in the Dark or the latest Xworld, then yeah not your best choice probably.  If you want people to jump in and support your playstyle, Nexus will do it everytime, even when it's not under attack.

I'll start a BitD thread.

This site also has plenty of people who like Advanced Squad Leader.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;942066This site also has plenty of people who like Advanced Squad Leader.

You checked out the 2nd Edition from the MMP company?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;942066This site also has plenty of people who like Advanced Squad Leader.

Anecdote:  Most of the gamers I know don't.  But that's not fact, nor is it meant that even a significant group of gamers don't.  I was just speaking for MYSELF.

Quote from: CRKrueger;942064Let's quickly revisit some quotes:

• "Goddamn, gamers can be a bunch of close minded fucks." - Not directed at anyone, so presumably targeting anyone who expresses misgivings about the FFGSW game.
  
• "C'mon, brother. It's not an RPG site sacred cow so it must suck." - Not directed at anyone, so dismissing anyone who expresses misgivings about the FFGSW game.
  
• "One also has to consider the seething vitriol many have for anything remotely close to a player-driven narrative mechanic." - Seething Vitriol, really?  Again, not directed at anyone, so targeting anyone who doesn't enjoy narrative mechanics.
  
• "Haters gonna' hate." - The archetypal dismissal of all criticism.
  

That's what happens when you scattershot a thread with a passive-aggressive attacks meant to dismiss the arguments of nearly anyone disagreeing with you.  Maybe you meant me, maybe you didn't, I'm certainly in the Venn Diagram of "People who disagree with you."  Also please don't insult my intelligence by claiming those were jokes.  You obviously found them funny, but those were jabs that you meant.  Own your shit. I do.

Yeah I made comments like "You only beat the ISD to Dantooine if you roll Double MoneyShot symbols".  Yeah, that's snarky.  Is it less or more snarky than suggesting that anything other than unlimited Ammo is Actuaries and Accountants, or Advanced Squad Leader, etc?  I certainly fired shots in this thread, but I didn't draw.

There are two fundamentally different ways of looking at RPGs.  
If I'm looking for a coherent, internally consistent setting, then Story mechanics are useless bullshit.  
If you're looking for Plot and Drama driven stories, then detailing aspects of the setting outside of the desires of those creating the narrative is useless bullshit.
When people who greatly prefer one method run into people who greatly prefer the other method, things might heat up, and when it happens on a site specifically set up to defend one method and there are no moderation rules, well elbows are gonna get thrown.

Yeah this place is full of people who play a version of OSR/D&D.  Most of these people also play other RPGs as well, narrative or not, and there's narrativists who post here too.  JKim and I contend quite a bit, which much fall of blood (or at least ketchup ), but we also agree on a lot of things.  Of course, over the course of many years, JKim has P/A threadcrapped like once or twice maybe.

Anytime someone complains "This Site only has X" the answer is always the same = Post threads about the games you want to see.  If what you want to do is come here to read as much info as possible about Blades in the Dark or the latest Xworld, then yeah not your best choice probably.  If you want people to jump in and support your playstyle, Nexus will do it everytime, even when it's not under attack.

I'll start a BitD thread.

They were jokes, even if you don't think they are. I don't really care if you believe me. You don't know me, bud. I'm not passive aggressive. If you (or anyone else here) ever questions whether I'm being insulting on purpose, I'm not. If it seems that way, ask and I'll apologize, because, well, I own my shit...

Anyway, I don't say the OSR's shit or insult it's fans. I didn't push an agenda. I stated what I like and why. You regularly ridicule things you don't like but got pissed when snark flew your way. You were rude as hell about the people who enjoy FFG Star Wars. It's not about hurt feels, it's about you coming across as a jackass. It's not as if you say, "Narrative rules and crazy symbols? Nah, not for me". No, it's more akin to, "A stupid-shit system tied to dumb-ass storygaming crap who's fanboys shoot their loads on each other". Not quotes by you, but they serve my point.

And I have to make it perfectly, crucially clear that I fully realize the deal on this site. The last place I'd go to have a friendly* discussion about most games I like, is here. It's not a jab, it's so you have no illusions as to my understanding of the tone here. That's fine. Really. I've gone back to RPG.net more often to talk games, because as full-retard as they are about SJW shenanigans, that's where I can find more in common, game-wise.

BUT!!! As much as I think you can be a jerk and as much as you probably feel *insert negative thing* about me, I do very much appreciate that you and I can smack each other around without being banned. I would love to have this site be my one-stop-shop for all things gaming-talk, but it's not and that's fine. That doesn't mean I hate it here, or think the people or their stuff, but it doesn't mean I won't tease about it.

*meaning the bulk of people posting are into it.