Quote from: Justin Alexander;941437Case in point: That's not how the game works.

But you're never going to be convinced of this. Because we've had this discussion before. And you still can't be bothered to crack the cover on your rulebooks and read the most basic mechanics of the game you're playing.

If you were altering the game on purpose, more power to you. But it boggles my mind that you've been playing these games for years and yet you so badly flubbed your basic reading comprehension of the rulebook that you simply fucked up the core mechanic and not only never noticed that you did it, but militantly refuse to reread the book and realize your mistake. God only knows how you're unwittingly mangling the rest of the system.

Force and Destiny pg.31
Interpreting The Pool
Triumph And Despair
"Triumph and Despair do not completely cancel each other out."

Triumph pg.32
"Triumph can be thought of as an enhanced, more powerful version of Advantage."

Despair pg.32
"Despair can be viewed as an upgraded, more potent form of Threat."

EotE FAQ which btw came out before your review. Makes one wonder if it was ignored it because it pokes holes in your ranting.
"However, the Triumph and Despair narrative(Advantage and/or Threat) effects cannot be canceled, so the incredibly potent beneficial or negative effects still occur. "

Quote from: CRKrueger;941106Oooo...I forgot about this one...abstract range bands.  Nevermind, stick in the fork in FFGSW, it's done.  He hates that more than I do, if that's even possible.

Ok, moving on to d20 and d6, what are the classic "This is why people don't pick these systems" for each.

Abstract?

AoR pg 221-222 Range Bands
Engaged: To reflect two or more target who are grappling or otherwise engaged in hand-to-hand combat....
Short Range: Short range indicates up to several meters between targets....
Medium Range: Medium range can be up to several dozen meters away....
Long Range: Long Range is farther than a few dozen meters...
Extreme Range: Extreme range is the farthest range ar which two target can interact....

I find it odd for someone who goes on and on and on about Theatre of the Mind now needs very precise, down to the inch even, ranges.  It's like you need count squares on a play mat or something...

Well, that definition for Extreme range, at the least, is rather abstract.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;941437Case in point: That's not how the game works.

But you're never going to be convinced of this. Because we've had this discussion before. And you still can't be bothered to crack the cover on your rulebooks and read the most basic mechanics of the game you're playing.

If you were altering the game on purpose, more power to you. But it boggles my mind that you've been playing these games for years and yet you so badly flubbed your basic reading comprehension of the rulebook that you simply fucked up the core mechanic and not only never noticed that you did it, but militantly refuse to reread the book and realize your mistake. God only knows how you're unwittingly mangling the rest of the system.

Are you talking to me? I think you're talking to me. Well I'm not *actually* playing FFG Star Wars as I post on this topic. I don't change any of the rules mechanics. That I made a simple mention of cancellation-effects of the primary values on the dice and didn't include the typically *rare* Triumph+Despair non-cancellation rule probably doesn't warrant the assumption that I mangle the game and have horrible reading comprehension and I'm fucking up core-mechanics because I'm not re-reading core rulebooks to your satisfaction. More likely it's just an honest omission of an honest discussion.

You might wanna backtrack the hyperbolic ire you have. I'm addressing mechanical difficulties in direct play and relation to other Star Wars games. Nothing more. As someone that has run the game and doesn't deviate from the rules save for where rules do not exist - convincing me the game doesn't work, or it's a narrative mess, flies in the face of my actually doing those things with it.

Edit: I'm not a fan of range-bands either. But yeah - Theater of the Mind fixes that pretty easy.

Quote from: HappyDaze;941498Well, that definition for Extreme range, at the least, is rather abstract.

In the context of the actual game, not really.

Quote from: Sommerjon;941481I find it odd for someone who goes on and on and on about Theatre of the Mind

On and on?  Unless the search function has failed, it doesn't appear that I've used that phrase since Oct 2015.  Of course, since you're just here shitting yourself because giggles, there's no point, but still, that was odd.

When I first heard FFG games was making the latest Star Wars game I was disappointed, mainly after watching videos of WHFRP3 gameplay. Not my cuppa and I was convinced Star Wars would be a fiddly mess. My tastes run in the middle when it comes to rules complexity/narrative freedom. I like a solid, easy-to-use set but it has to have meat and support enough flexibility that both sides of the screen can get creative. I like mechanically supported narrative elements instead of purely winging things.

Since I'm a huge Star Wars nut, I decided to take a look. Those dice...ugh! What are these hieroglyphs? But, I kept digging. Hmmm...interesting. There's a Beginner Set? Fuck it. It's only $30.00. I've wasted more than that on toys (I'm looking at you, Spliter Cell: Blacklist! .

I fell in love. The way it teaches the game made what turned out to be an already easily-learned system even moreso. There was still the practice inherent to most games, but damn was I wrong about those "funny dice". I grabbed the beta book and it was lightspeed ahead. It felt Star Wars and our group loved it more and more. We dug in and learned the nuances. It's been wonderful.

I absolutely LOVE that the mechanics guide creative ideas that enhance every moment. For the minmaxers, it had weight but not to the point the less fiddly players felt left out or frustrated. The narrative aspects didn't wreck the fun of the rules junkies; they got their tactical play. The storytellers got to interact with the system while having a clear framework for narrative interactions.

In the end it may not be for everyone. No game is. I will say that there's a FANTASTIC game in there and with very few exceptions, a group can use the RAW to run a great game of Star Wars that can cater to a varied group.

Quote from: Sommerjon;941477Force and Destiny pg.31
Interpreting The Pool
Triumph And Despair
"Triumph and Despair do not completely cancel each other out."

Triumph pg.32
"Triumph can be thought of as an enhanced, more powerful version of Advantage."

Despair pg.32
"Despair can be viewed as an upgraded, more potent form of Threat."

EotE FAQ which btw came out before your review. Makes one wonder if it was ignored it because it pokes holes in your ranting.
"However, the Triumph and Despair narrative(Advantage and/or Threat) effects cannot be canceled, so the incredibly potent beneficial or negative effects still occur. "

Thanks for all those quotes proving that what I said was 100% correct. I'm a little hazy, though, on why you think I'd want to ignore something that proves my point.

Quote from: CRKrueger;941518On and on?  Unless the search function has failed, it doesn't appear that I've used that phrase since Oct 2015.  Of course, since you're just here shitting yourself because giggles, there's no point, but still, that was odd.

Damn do you whine a lot.  Instead of answering you go on the offensive. How politician of you.

Why do you need precise bands of distance when you use theater of the mind?
Is it like your demands of precise +/- mods in order to make your 'immersive' decisions?

I like listening to you blathering on about theatre of the mind old school immersiveness bullshit, when all you are is the 3.5 munchkin.
My bad, I'm not allowed to say anything like that, it makes OHT's ass pucker, strange that you can throw whatever shade you want though.  How very TBP.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;941527Thanks for all those quotes proving that what I said was 100% correct. I'm a little hazy, though, on why you think I'd want to ignore something that proves my point.

Because it doesn't prove your point.

You only stated a partial truth.

Triumph + Despair do cancel parts of the other knocking a Triumph + Despair down to Advantage + Threat.

Quote from: Sommerjon;941528Damn do you whine a lot.  Instead of answering you go on the offensive. How politician of you.

Guess you couldn't find a quote sooner than 15 months either...

Quote from: Sommerjon;941528blathering on about theatre of the mind old school immersiveness

Of course that won't stop you.  Never let the facts get in the way of smearing shit around.  Who's the politician?

Quote from: Sommerjon;941528Why do you need precise bands of distance when you use theater of the mind?

A is Medium Range from B, B is Medium Range From C, C is Long Range from D, how far is A from D?  How many Shorts make up an Extreme?  Use numbers and the question doesn't even need to be asked, it's self-evident.  Numbers work better whether you're just saying "50 yards" and no minis or map in sight, or whether you're bouncing figures square by square like you're playing monopoly.

Quote from: Sommerjon;9415283.5 munchkin.

Yeah, that's what I play, alright.  Known for it in fact... or again, not even remotely in the same universe as reality, but again, shits and giggles threadcrap. :rolleyes:

Quote from: Sommerjon;941528My bad, I'm not allowed to say anything like that, it makes OHT's ass pucker, strange that you can throw whatever shade you want though.  How very TBP.

Who's doing the whining again?

Quote from: Alderaan Crumbs;941519When I first heard FFG games was making the latest Star Wars game I was disappointed, mainly after watching videos of WHFRP3 gameplay. Not my cuppa and I was convinced Star Wars would be a fiddly mess. My tastes run in the middle when it comes to rules complexity/narrative freedom. I like a solid, easy-to-use set but it has to have meat and support enough flexibility that both sides of the screen can get creative. I like mechanically supported narrative elements instead of purely winging things.

Since I'm a huge Star Wars nut, I decided to take a look. Those dice...ugh! What are these hieroglyphs? But, I kept digging. Hmmm...interesting. There's a Beginner Set? Fuck it. It's only $30.00. I've wasted more than that on toys (I'm looking at you, Spliter Cell: Blacklist! .

I fell in love. The way it teaches the game made what turned out to be an already easily-learned system even moreso. There was still the practice inherent to most games, but damn was I wrong about those "funny dice". I grabbed the beta book and it was lightspeed ahead. It felt Star Wars and our group loved it more and more. We dug in and learned the nuances. It's been wonderful.

I absolutely LOVE that the mechanics guide creative ideas that enhance every moment. For the minmaxers, it had weight but not to the point the less fiddly players felt left out or frustrated. The narrative aspects didn't wreck the fun of the rules junkies; they got their tactical play. The storytellers got to interact with the system while having a clear framework for narrative interactions.

In the end it may not be for everyone. No game is. I will say that there's a FANTASTIC game in there and with very few exceptions, a group can use the RAW to run a great game of Star Wars that can cater to a varied group.

This is almost exactly what happened to me and my group. Despite the fact I'm a total system's whore that loves sniffing around looking for a system that scratches an itch better* - I don't like spending money if I don't have to. I was/am very happy with WEG d6 Star Wars... I was, in fact, playing WEG Star Wars when FFG's Edge of the Empire launched. My skepticism was extraordinarily high. After going through the same general process you did, I've pretty much decided FFG's was more fun to use for Star Wars. I have yet to seriously consider using the FFG system for anything else.

I will always love WEG's Star Wars, regardless. And some of their books, I doubt I'll ever part with.


*this is that elusive unicorn that is the Gaming Dragon I chase.

Quote from: tenbones;941546This is almost exactly what happened to me and my group. Despite the fact I'm a total system's whore that loves sniffing around looking for a system that scratches an itch better* - I don't like spending money if I don't have to. I was/am very happy with WEG d6 Star Wars... I was, in fact, playing WEG Star Wars when FFG's Edge of the Empire launched. My skepticism was extraordinarily high. After going through the same general process you did, I've pretty much decided FFG's was more fun to use for Star Wars. I have yet to seriously consider using the FFG system for anything else.

I will always love WEG's Star Wars, regardless. And some of their books, I doubt I'll ever part with.


*this is that elusive unicorn that is the Gaming Dragon I chase.

Oh, man. I get chasing that gaming dragon, for sure. In the end, I've come to accept using a few systems/settings to give me what I crave. I love the things the Cypher System does and have come to see it's brilliance. Blades in the Dark is scratching itches I didn't even know I had and does some things I feel more RPGs should. For my Star Wars fix it's FFG, all the way.

I have my own favorites and sacred cows (Fading Suns, Cyberpunk 2020, World of Darkness) yet over the years my tastes in systems has changed. Those are still great games, to be sure, but I now desire things those systems don't provide. FFG's Star Wars assuredly provides the bits I'm looking for, but I agree it's not good for generic settings.

Quote from: Sommerjon;941531Because it doesn't prove your point.

You only stated a partial truth.

Triumph + Despair do cancel parts of the other knocking a Triumph + Despair down to Advantage + Threat.

Could you please give a reference for that? I don't believe that Triumphs and Despairs modify the other to Advantage and Threat, respectively.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;941527Thanks for all those quotes proving that what I said was 100% correct. I'm a little hazy, though, on why you think I'd want to ignore something that proves my point.

What's the debate? I may be missing the point of it. That Triumphs and Despairs don't cancel each other's effects? If so, that's exactly correct. The only aspect of the symbols that are cancelled is Success and Failure, as normal. Is that the argument?

There are eight symbols: Success, Failure, Advantage, Threat, Triumph, Despair, Light side pips and Dark side pips. Only the first four affect their opposite. The last four have mechanical and narrative aspects, but they function mechanically independent of their opposite.