I have a friend who's thinking of picking this up, so I figure I'll pass on some questions, I know we have a couple veterans here.

1. Compatibility - How similar are the systems? If you can, specifically compare to the FFG 40k where Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader and Deathwatch characters didn't quite line up on the same scale/use the same modifiers, etc.
2. Economic Simulationism - Are the doodads of the setting concrete or abstract?  On a scale of 1-10, where 10 would be Gurps: Far Trader, how concrete is buying and selling stuff?
3. Engineering Simulationism - Outfitting/modifying/repairing your starship/droid/speeder whatever.  Can you illegally modify your Blastech-DL44 and Corellian YT-1300 like Han did?  On a scale of 1-10, where 10 would be Gurps: Vehicles or Traveller: Fusion, Fire and Steel how is the equipment customization.
4. Space Travel - Do they cover Fuel/Hyperspace that kind of stuff?  Do you run out of fuel only if you roll a critical failure on a Hyperspace roll or some weird abstract/narrative crap?  On a scale of 1-10 where 10 is, I guess Gurps/Traveller again, where is Space Travel?
5. Starmaps -  How well do they chart out the Star Wars Universe, and is there a single resource, or is it kind of all over the place in adventures, etc?  If you want to 1-10 this one, I guess travellermap.com is an 11?
6. Narrative Nonsense - What kinds of OOC mechanics are floating around?  Any meta-currencies?

The whole reason FFGSW is looking attractive to him is because there's a ton of source material and adventures to splice together.  The one thing he doesn't have time for right now is to take everything from the Star Wars technical readouts and convert to some system and he doesn't want to just take general space stuff and handwave it all as Star Wars (where everyone everywhere is using like 1 of 4 different blasters for example).

I gave him a pdf of d6 REUP, but he was asking me about FFGSW so here we go.

Quote from: CRKrueger;941099I have a friend who's thinking of picking this up, so I figure I'll pass on some questions, I know we have a couple veterans here.

1. Compatibility - How similar are the systems? If you can, specifically compare to the FFG 40k where Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader and Deathwatch characters didn't quite line up on the same scale/use the same modifiers, etc.

They line up perfectly.  You can have a Shi-Cho Jedi Knight with a Rebel Pilot and Bounty Hunter on the same team and all of them will be pretty 'even'.

Quote from: CRKrueger;9410992. Economic Simulationism - Are the doodads of the setting concrete or abstract?  On a scale of 1-10, where 10 would be Gurps: Far Trader, how concrete is buying and selling stuff?

Not sure I understand this question, but the system uses Credits as prices for every piece of gear.

Quote from: CRKrueger;9410993. Engineering Simulationism - Outfitting/modifying/repairing your starship/droid/speeder whatever.  Can you illegally modify your Blastech-DL44 and Corellian YT-1300 like Han did?  On a scale of 1-10, where 10 would be Gurps: Vehicles or Traveller: Fusion, Fire and Steel how is the equipment customization.

Each book in the Edge of Empire series that I have, and the core book for Force and Destiny, all have customization options with costs and how it takes place in the oddly abstract encumberance system.

Quote from: CRKrueger;9410994. Space Travel - Do they cover Fuel/Hyperspace that kind of stuff?  Do you run out of fuel only if you roll a critical failure on a Hyperspace roll or some weird abstract/narrative crap?  On a scale of 1-10 where 10 is, I guess Gurps/Traveller again, where is Space Travel?

Space travel moves at the speed of Plot, and like ammo blasters, only happens if it would be interesting for the game.  And both Players and GM should understand that.  Er, they DO give how much time getting from point A to B, often in Days or Weeks, but nothing super defined.

Quote from: CRKrueger;9410995. Starmaps -  How well do they chart out the Star Wars Universe, and is there a single resource, or is it kind of all over the place in adventures, etc?  If you want to 1-10 this one, I guess travellermap.com is an 11?

The Starmaps aren't super detailed, at least the ones I have.  A flaw.  But they do show one in the Edge of Empire corebook, I think.  My copy is buried behind me, and I can't reach it at the moment.  Gimme a few to confirm.

I stand corrected, the Edge of Empire book has a VERY detailed star map of the known Galaxy, with trade routes and hyperlanes explained and listed.  Pages 328-329 in my copy.

Quote from: CRKrueger;9410996. Narrative Nonsense - What kinds of OOC mechanics are floating around?  Any meta-currencies?

Only one meta currency, and that's Force Points, BUT they're not all that invasive, they only occur when one side uses their version (players get Light Side, DM's get Dark Side.)  And it's randomly rolled at the beginning of each session.  BUt they can be removed relatively easily in MY experience.

Quote from: CRKrueger;941099The whole reason FFGSW is looking attractive to him is because there's a ton of source material and adventures to splice together.  The one thing he doesn't have time for right now is to take everything from the Star Wars technical readouts and convert to some system and he doesn't want to just take general space stuff and handwave it all as Star Wars (where everyone everywhere is using like 1 of 4 different blasters for example).

I gave him a pdf of d6 REUP, but he was asking me about FFGSW so here we go.

The FFG books reuse (even lightly) a lot of the old WEG stuff.  Like in Edge of Empires, the Bounty Hunter guilds, right down to the names, both guild and any important people, as well as what their area of specialty is, which were pulled from the WEG Bounty Hunter supplement (I still have that book, and it's pretty damn close.) And that's in the core book.

7. So you never run out of fuel, ammo, etc. unless it's some form of Dramatic Complication as dictated by the Funky Dice?  I think that might spike the idea right there.

8. Aren't there Destiny Points or something like that?  What can you do with them?  Reroll with them, Get Out of Death Free, add a Corporate Sector Blaster Carbine behind the bar?

9. Ok, so maybe they don't have maps, but what about Hyperspace Routes?  I remember the WEG stuff at least listing known routes for popular systems, do they go that deep into it?

Oooo...I forgot about this one...abstract range bands.  Nevermind, stick in the fork in FFGSW, it's done.  He hates that more than I do, if that's even possible.

Ok, moving on to d20 and d6, what are the classic "This is why people don't pick these systems" for each.

Quote from: CRKrueger;9411057. So you never run out of fuel, ammo, etc. unless it's some form of Dramatic Complication as dictated by the Funky Dice?  I think that might spike the idea right there.

Sadly, yes.  But it's meant (and again, I'm not trying to justify this, but rather explain what the writers went with this) to simulate how it happened in the movies.  Also, back in the WEG days, blasters of all sizes had ungodly amounts of ammo capacity, so running out of shots was nigh impossible.

Quote from: CRKrueger;9410998. Aren't there Destiny Points or something like that?  What can you do with them?  Reroll with them, Get Out of Death Free, add a Corporate Sector Blaster Carbine behind the bar?

Oh, right.  Sorry, my table calls them Force Points.  The can't be used as a Death Free card. but the Blaster Carbine Behind the Bar, yes.  They can also be used to boost checks by players, or create complications by GMs.

Quote from: CRKrueger;9410999. Ok, so maybe they don't have maps, but what about Hyperspace Routes?  I remember the WEG stuff at least listing known routes for popular systems, do they go that deep into it?

I was wrong, and I corrected myself, the EoTE core book has a two page spread detailing planets and routes.  And the supplements for that line (which I've got the most of) every planet they list, mentions a hyper lane and what it's connected to.

Destiny Points are also used to fuel certain Talents, some of which are fairly normal (e.g., add more damage to an attack) while others are heavily narrative. There are also Signature Abilities for each character Career. These are a mix of high-end abilities, but some of them are majorly scene-altering narrative overwrites.

There is some exceptions to never running out of ammo. Expendables--like grenades and proton torpedoes--still are tracked traditionally and require spending credits to replenish (when/where available), but blaster charges are not tracked. Fuel for ships is a part of a rather abstracted "Consumables" rating.

Star Wars d20 stinks worse than three feet up Jabba the Hutt's ass.  (Many Bothans died to bring us this information.)

Seriously, there is NOTHING good about it.  Too fucking complicated and it makes no damn sense, and many of the rules simply don't do what they say they do.  You could get a better Star Wars rule set by shitting on a piece of typing paper.

I'll follow this with interest. I picked up FFE Star Wars but so far it has defeated me. It is pretty much telephone book sized, and most of that is rules.

Quote from: CRKrueger;941106Oooo...I forgot about this one...abstract range bands.  Nevermind, stick in the fork in FFGSW, it's done.  He hates that more than I do, if that's even possible.

Ok, moving on to d20 and d6, what are the classic "This is why people don't pick these systems" for each.

Systemwise, d20 is indeed too crunchy. The Saga edition was supposed to be a slimmed down version, but I don't know if that even remotely cured the d20 version of its warts. The D6 version's only big issue is that it's not in print and if you're going for used books, some of the pricing would make even a Sith Lord crap his armored pants.

With regard to the system, the only big complaint I've heard with D6 is that Jedi start out pretty much ineffective and if they survive and learn, they wind up becoming superheroes. To be honest, D6 is the only version I would use for Star Wars as using d6s make an RPG for a well-known property very accessible.

If your friend wants helpful hacks and house rules, he can certainly find help over at the Rancor Pit, which has brought us conversions of all the d20 stuff back to d6. Lots of other stuff can be found at the d6 Holocron, and Gary Astleford's Rebellion site too. One final link of interest is Peter Schweighofer's Dueling Blades system, which cuts through the muss and fuss of lightsaber duels and melee in general.

Not to blow my own horn, but I do have a wiki/blog for my own campaign up and includes notes on which bits from each ediiton I'm using, as well as any house rules.

Overall, stick with D6 and use the other books for the fluff. I hope this helps your friend make a decision so he can run an awesome campaign!

Harl

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;941129Star Wars d20 stinks

Avoid FFG Star Wars then.

It uses the funky dice and an odd sort of narrative twist. Heres a few examples. Remember to make your sanity save after, r before, or both...

One problem with FFGs Star Wars is the usual FFG problem that they love to section rules up to make you buy books you might not otherwise have. This isnt cases of "hey! Neet new idea! Lets drop it in the next supplement!" No. This is design from the start.

The core games perfectly playable. But theres stuff in the other books that really feel like they should have been in the main. Others not so much. YMMV of course on whats vital and not.

Id suggest researching the hell out of FFG:SW before buying.

The other problem I see is the cost. To get the whole game you are going to possibly be dropping a few hundred bucks as their stuff tends not to be cheap and I've not seen it on reliable discount like all the 5e stuff has been.

Then theres the narrative fuled dice mechanic. If you have any players who have trouble with icons then this game is going to be potentially hell for them. My main complaint here is some of the icons are too simmilar. Which doesnt help. But if you can grock the system it flows fairly ok. Just not my thing personally.

LOL wow... narrative dice with symbols... those examples speak volumes. (running away)

Quote from: Omega;941141One problem with FFGs Star Wars is the usual FFG problem that they love to section rules up to make you buy books you might not otherwise have. This isnt cases of "hey! Neet new idea! Lets drop it in the next supplement!" No. This is design from the start.

The core games perfectly playable. But there's stuff in the other books that really feel like they should have been in the main. Others not so much. YMMV of course on whats vital and not.

I'd suggest researching the hell out of FFG:SW before buying.

I think it's a combination of wanting to sell tons of books as well as waiting for Disney/Lucasfilm to approve things. I know the approval process for WEG's version of the game was rough and it didn't get any easier with the d20 versions.

Quote from: Omega;941141The other problem I see is the cost. To get the whole game you are going to possibly be dropping a few hundred bucks as their stuff tends not to be cheap and I've not seen it on reliable discount like all the 5e stuff has been.

The cost was one thing which really turned me off with FFG's version. To help CRKrueger and his friend, let's take a look at the prices as they appear on FFG's site. Items in red are out of stock.

The Force Awakens

Spoiler

Beginner Game - $29.95

Edge of the Empire

Spoiler

Beginner Game - $29.95
Core Rulebook - $59.95
GM's Kit - $19.95

Adventures
Beyond the Rim - $29.95
The Jewel of Yavin - $29.95
Mask of the Pirate Queen - $29.95

Supplements
Enter the Unknown - $29.95
Suns of Fortune - $39.95
Dangerous Covenants - $29.95
Far Horizons - $29.95
Fly Casual - $29.95
Lords of Nal Hutta - $39.95
Special Modifications - $29.95
No Disintegrations - $29.95 (not yet released)

Specialization Decks
Fringer - $6.95
Scout - $6.95
Trader - $6.95
Mercenary Soldier - $6.95
Bodyguard - $6.95
Marauder - $6.95
Doctor - $6.95
Politico - $6.95
Scholar - $6.95
Scoundrel - $6.95
Thief - $6.95
Pilot - $6.95
Outlaw Tech - $6.95
Mechanic - $6.95
Slicer - $6.95
Assassin - $6.95
Gadgeteer - $6.95
Survivalist - $6.95
Force Sensitive Exile - $6.95
Archaeologist - $6.95
Big Game Hunter - $6.95
Driver - $6.95
Explorer Signature Abilities - $6.95
Enforcer - $6.95
Heavy - $6.95
Hired Gun Signature Abilities - $6.95
Demolitionist - $6.95
Performer - $6.95
Colonist Signature Abilities - $6.95
Marshal - $6.95
Entrepreneur - $6.95
Charmer - $6.95
Gambler - $6.95
Gunslinger - $6.95
Smuggler Signature Abilities - $6.95

Force and Destiny

Spoiler

Beginner Game - $29.95
Core Rulebook - $59.95
GM's Kit - $19.95

Adventures
Chronicles of the Gatekeeper - $29.95
Ghosts of Dathomir - $29.95 (not yet released)

Supplements
Keeping the Peace - $29.95
Nexus of Power - $39.95
Endless Vigil - $29.95
Savage Spirits - $29.95

Specialization Decks
Soresu Defender - $6.95
Protector - $6.95
Peacekeeper - $6.95
Aggressor - $6.95
Shii-Cho Knight - $6.95
Starfighter Ace - $6.95
Ataru Striker - $6.95
Pathfinder - $6.95
Shadow - $6.95
Hunter - $6.95
Shien Expert - $6.95
Artisan - $6.95
Niman Disciple - $6.95
Sage - $6.95
Healer - $6.95
Makashi Duelist - $6.95
Seer - $6.95
Advisor - $6.95

Age of Rebellion

Spoiler

Beginner Game - $29.95
Core Rulebook - $59.95
GM's Kit - $19.95

Adventures
Onslaught at Arda I - $29.95
Friends Like These - $29.95

Supplements
Stay on Target - $29.95
Desperate Allies - $29.95
Strongholds of Resistance - $39.95
Lead by Example - $39.95
Forged in Battle - $29.95

Specialization Decks
Medic - $6.95
Sharpshooter - $6.95
Commando - $6.95
Scout - $6.95
Infiltrator - $6.95
Force-sensitive Emergent - $6.95
Slicer - $6.95
Gunner - $6.95
Pilot - $6.95
Recruit - $6.95
Driver - $6.95
Commodore - $6.95
Squadron Leader - $6.95
Tactician - $6.95
Ambassador - $6.95
Agitator - $6.95
Quartermaster - $6.95
Mechanic - $6.95
Saboteur - $6.95
Scientist - $6.95
Hotshot - $6.95
Rigger - $6.95
Ace Signature Abilities - $6.95
Beast Rider - $6.95
Propagandist - $6.95
Analyst - $6.95
Advocate - $6.95
Diplomat Signature Abilities - $6.95
Instructor - $6.95
Figurehead - $6.95
Strategist - $6.95
Commander Signature Abilities - $6.95

Universal Products

Spoiler

Dice - $14.95
Scum and Villainy - $6.95
Imperials and Rebels - $6.95
Imperials and Rebels II - $6.95
Citizens of the Galaxy - $6.95
Critical Injury Deck - $6.95
Critical Hit Deck - $6.95
Creatures of the Galaxy - $6.95
Hunters and Force Users - $6.95

Huh. Around $100.00 before sales tax just to get the core rules, GM's screen, and dice; tack on another $42.00 for the universal books for a total of $142.00. Then, if you want to add in the supplements for say, Age of Rebellion, shell out another $170.00 for a growing total of $300.00+. Want the AoR specialization decks? Get ready to sell a kidney or other organ for $225.00. Grand total before sales tax? About $525.00. :eek:

Don't bother looking for cheaper prices at Noble Knight - they're pretty much the same, even for used items. I didn't even bother looking on Amazon because I'm sure that's even more insane.

Anyway you look at it, the cost is pretty steep. Too damn steep for my tastes, especially since people got the "privilege" of paying around $40.00-$60.00 just for the beta rules of each game. I decided to bite the bullet and pony up the money for Edge's beta. Sold it the next day to a friend after flipping through it and seeing the dice mechanics.

Quote from: Omega;941141Then there's the narrative fueled dice mechanic. If you have any players who have trouble with icons then this game is going to be potentially hell for them. My main complaint here is some of the icons are too similar. Which doesn't help. But if you can grock the system it flows fairly ok. Just not my thing personally.

Yeah, I agree. People with poor eyesight won't be able to make heads or tails of the dice icons. Proprietary dice suck.

Harl Quinn

I don't see the icons being a real strain on most peoples' vision (pun unintended), but the books themselves are in a very small, narrow font. It ends up looking really light on the page, and at 43, I'm already having a bit of an issue with it anytime my eyes start to get tired.

double post