Quote from: Spinachcat;939606...and companies still think OGL is a good idea?

Apparently both Evil Hat and Wizards thought that it was a good idea for Fate and D&D 5e.

Quote from: Spinachcat;939606D&D goes OGL which spawns Pathfinder which eats up profits...

And without it D&D 4e is released, tanks, and D&D is dead as a RPG brand and the RPG Industry implodes badly.

The situation was entirely of Wizard's doing. If they haven't tried to go all Forge, bring everything in-house, and break comparability with D&D 3.X. Then there would have no opening for Paizo to exploit. The combination of all three decision created the circumstances where they were knocked out of #1. In the end it worked out because Wizards were able to craft a version of D&D that more people like and retook the #1 spot away from Paizo.

Quote from: Spinachcat;939606Trav goes OGL which spawns Cepheus which eats up profits...

One, I highly doubt Cepheus is eating Mongoose's profit. Since 2000 there always been more than one edition of Traveller in print. There was Traveller 20 and GURPS Traveller, now there is Mongoose and Traveller 5. And the situation where Cepheus is again a situation of Mongoose's own creation by screwing up the third party licensing program.

Quote from: Spinachcat;939606RQ goes OGL which spawns Mythras which eats up profits...

Mythras is not OGL. It is a straight up complete re-write of Mongoose Runequest 2 and the only third party license are the traditional ones negotiated with Design Mechanism.

 In fact it Mongoose who tried to spike RQ6 by releasing Legends by using the OGL. In end both succeeded somewhat.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;939612Oh, and yes, I think OGL as a business idea has had its day.

I disagree. The tradeoff is still valid, I will give you a limited license to my IP and in exchange for you producing products for my game and the license won't sunset leaving you with a work you can't sell.

Quote from: estar;939614Apparently both Evil Hat and Wizards thought that it was a good idea for Fate and D&D 5e.

Neither Evil Hat or Wizards allow retro clones of their core books though, do they?

Quote from: Spinachcat;939606RQ goes OGL which spawns Mythras which eats up profits...

If there's a BRP retroclone it's Gore... which is CoC-ish, kinda... and I don't think it's eating up any profits at all, even with Chaosium's troubles in the recent past.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;939620Neither Evil Hat or Wizards allow retro clones of their core books though, do they?

Yes you easily make retro clones with either. In fact there is Red Box already out and Dragon Heresy soon to be published.

As for Fate it basically a toolkit so the various 3PP setting end up being mini core books but for that setting.

But for both a major factor is the fact they are both "in print" and well supported by the publisher. This is a major factor and why the OGL doesn't lead to publisher losing sales for their current product line. For the vast majority of gamers it matters that it is a book with the label D&D on it and that Wizards is the publisher. The same with Fate and Evil Hat.

And both successfully co-opted a number of people that would purse their own project. Wizards with their DM's Guild and Fate by actively recruiting authors from their community. The OGL will be a problem only if they try to shit can the current edition. Even then if the new edition has merit like with 5e and MongTrav 2e that will not be a big factor.

With D&D 4e Wizards had multiple fuckups in succession that fueled the rise of Paizo. With that as an example of what not to do, Wizards successfully leveraged 5e to vault back to #1. And not they didn't repeat what they did 3e. Yes they have an OGL, yes it helps them . But I will be the first to admit it just one of the many things Wizards did right to make D&D #1 again.

And not even the most important thing. The most important thing was to make a game people wanted to play based on listening rather just throwing something out and hope it sticks based on a bad theory.

Quote from: Spinachcat;939606So let me get this straight...

D&D goes OGL which spawns Pathfinder which eats up profits...

Trav goes OGL which spawns Cepheus which eats up profits...

RQ goes OGL which spawns Mythras which eats up profits...

...and companies still think OGL is a good idea?

I can't talk about the D&D/PF situation, but it seemd to me that the OGL-based games were only getting players that wouldn't have bought into 4e no matter what. In fact, if not for the OSR and PF, other systems might have got some more following (and the players of those might have been harder to get back to the D&D style).

In the case of Runequest and Traveller, however, I can speak up, since I've been following them since a long time:).

And in this case, we're used to having different variants of the system to pick from. Traveller edition wars have been following the "Classic Trav rules them all", "go fuck yourself, we only play the much slicker MgT1e" and "you all suck, T5 has all that and then some", "give me some TNE/T20/MT, bitches", "don't forget GURPS can do that, too" routine long before MgT2e and Cepheus existed. Complete with me snickering on the sides and eating popcorn:p.

The d100 discussions have always been similar. "I still play RQ2+RQ3 and see no reason to move", "MRQ2 for the sweet, sweet Manoeuvres, baby", "the Big Gold Book can do it all" and so on and so forth and...

And of course, the deal of having people invest money into developing your setting and system is as good as ever;).

I think its generally true that edition proliferation, whether from the original producer or knock offs, tends to evolve inevitably toward a shambolic wasteland of pointless distinctions without differences. D&D has 8 or more official versions (O, 1-5, H, B/E, evolving through to rules cyclopedia). But the experience at the table is basically the same for all of them, and none has evolved substantially in creative content (spells, monsters, styles of play, major classes, things you can do, etc.) from the original. I like the style and production qualities of the 1E core books so they tend to get the nod from me, but honestly it is all the same stuff. Same with playing RQ. Same with Traveller. And Pendragon. And Call of Cthulhu. And so on and so forth through any of the multi-edition game lines. It is a total waste of everyone's time and energy. Particularly when you start re-publishing the same adventures under different rules sets. I view Traveller as just a clearer than usual case of this phenomenon: there is virtually nothing in later editions that handled quite well in the original.

Wrong, quite a few things are handled differently. And to some people, obviosly not you, those differences matter:).
Which means that in the end, more editions make you more likely to get people that wouldn't be interested in your single edition;).

Quote from: Dave R;939601If you're happy with 1e you really don't.  I'm most interested in the changes to the trading game, but many campaigns never go there.

I may someday buy the whole 2e line if I actually get into a game of it, but I've converted to a just-in-time delivery model for buying Mongoose products.  Their editing and quality control is bottom of the industry.  

Or you could just look at what happened to the playtesters. The Beta version of the MgT2e Core Rulebook had to be purchased in order to playtest, with the understanding that the money spent could be used as a credit for the completed MgT2e Core Rulebook when it was made available in PDF or hardcover format. Well, the PDF did not have any of the corrections that were pointed out as needed during the playtest, it was an editing and quality control disaster. This situation became worse with the hardcover being released because there were two different printers for the MgT2e hardcover - Studio 2 Publishing and Lightning Source. There are different levels of print quality that you can choose when you go through DriveThruRPG and Lightning Source for a printed book and Mongoose chose the cheapest one. The MgT2e books printed by Studio 2 Publishing are fine, crisp clean printing and solid colors. The MgT2e books sent to the playtesters and printed by Lightning Source had fuzzy printing, color runs, and wavy pages like they were bound before the ink had fully dried - and the playtesters who chose to have a hardcover, paid for that.

That is not an edition war complaint, that is a production and customer service complaint.

Quote from: Larsdangly;939676It is a total waste of everyone's time and energy. Particularly when you start re-publishing the same adventures under different rules sets. I view Traveller as just a clearer than usual case of this phenomenon: there is virtually nothing in later editions that handled quite well in the original.

For some good comparison/contrast for your perusal, take a look at The Traveller Adventure for Classic Traveller and Aramis: The Traveller Adventure for MgT1e or look at Secrets of the Ancients for Classic Traveller and Secrets of the Ancients for MgT1e. It is pretty enlightening.

Quote from: jeff37923;939702]That is not an edition war complaint, that is a production and customer service complaint.

I was a play tester too. I paid for the playtest files in full knowledge that they served as 'down-payment' for a game I wanted to invest in - they have re-edited the files multiple times before the hardcopy was release, and all these progressive updates were free. I get all my pdf files included for free when I pre-order my hardcopy which are printed in good copy, by arrangement via email with Matt.

If you have a production and customer complaint, and want something actually done about it, then contacting the seller is the best way to go about it.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;939722I pre-order my hardcopy which are printed in good copy, by arrangement via email with Matt.

So you agree that you have to make a special arrangement with the owner of Mongoose Publishing to get a good hardcover copy if you were a playtester, which was not the original agreement.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;939722If you have a production and customer complaint, and want something actually done about it, then contacting the seller is the best way to go about it.

Tried that. Got ignored.

Quote from: jeff37923;939703For some good comparison/contrast for your perusal, take a look at The Traveller Adventure for Classic Traveller and Aramis: The Traveller Adventure for MgT1e or look at Secrets of the Ancients for Classic Traveller and Secrets of the Ancients for MgT1e. It is pretty enlightening.

Please tell me more! I am a CT/MT kinda guy, own both original modules. What are the differences to the JJAbrams versions?

Quote from: Settembrini;939725Please tell me more! I am a CT/MT kinda guy, own both original modules. What are the differences to the JJAbrams versions?

They both show what is some of the best and worst aspects of the Mongoose approach.

Best first - The original Secrets of the Ancients was somewhat lackluster and once you played through the module, you were left with a feeling of "That's all?" The Mongoose reboot has expanded the module from 52 half-size pages to 202 full-size pages and turned the Final War from a single completed conflict to a still ongoing conflict which the PCs are dragged in to help fight. It jumps from unlikely and implausible but possible right in to Star Trek/Doctor Who levels of transhumanist pseudoscience - which does appeal to a significant segment of the market. Of the two, the Mongoose reboot is the superior one (especially since it was originally free).

Worst last - The reboot Aramis: The Traveller Adventure is practically a word-for-word reprint of The Traveller Adventure, but with far crappier artwork. Diagrams and maps of the actual adventure locations are poorly traced versions of the originals and lack their definition and crispness of lines. The only redeeming part of this module were the deckplans by Ian Stead (which were offered as a separate free PDF by Mongoose). If you own the original The Traveller Adventure, there is no reason to buy the Mongoose version reboot.

Quote from: jeff37923;939723So you agree that you have to make a special arrangement with the owner of Mongoose Publishing to get a good hardcover copy if you were a playtester, which was not the original agreement.

Sending an email is hardly a special arrangement.

QuoteTried that. Got ignored.

Sounds like a plan, that.