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I want to start a sci fi space-faring campaign, 6-12 months long.  Interstellar travel should be fairly routine for players.  I am the very beginning stages of developing this.

Rules light to moderate.  Although I love the movies, I don't want Star Wars or Alien or Star Trek.  Intelligent alien beings would probably exist, but players could not play one.  Years ago I glanced at Traveler and remember that I liked what I saw.  Not interested in learning a complex system.  I plan to doing "inspirational research" for a few months (reading novels, watching sci fi, setting up star systems and an overview of my world(s) and of course, learning new rules)

What edition of Traveler or other sci fi game is good?  
Why?
I define good in this context as:

-rules light to low end of rules moderate
- inspirational and good atmosphere (when you read the rules, you are drawn in - 1st edition Shadowrun and Symbaroum did this.)
- lots of good ideas in core rules
- system makes sense
- rules are a fun read or at least not tedious to get through

Thanks.

Okay, Traveller with two 'l's.  And, well, probably Mongoose Traveller.

Classic Traveller + Including Books 1-8, Supplement 4, and whichever adventures and supplements have the various deck plans is good too.  But don't use the character generation from Books 4 - 7, just the other information.  The characters are crazy unbalanced.

If you want the setting, Megatraveller + The Referee's Companion + Rebellion Sourcebook covers the above CT material and adds a unified task system and vehicle design system.  The errata's a killer if you can even find it.

If you want the best setting bits the two CT Library Data supplements or Mega Traveller's Imperial Encyclopedia are a good starting point.  Survival Margin and TNE's Path of Tears are good reading.

TNE and T4 both have some interesting aspects but never quite come together.

T5 is, well, it's an awful lot of charts with an awful lot of errors in them.  Don't get me wrong, the sheer scope of what T5 contains is astonishing, just expect to make a lot of rulings.  But if you want a tool box for creating universes it's an amazing thing.  Supposedly the next update will be available in the near future I'd wait for that.

But Traveller's never quite managed to be complete and consistent.  Mongoose Traveller modernizes it and cleans it up.  Not my favorite by a long shot but if I want complete and consistent I go to GURPS.

Quote from: Vic99;937394I want to start a sci fi space-faring campaign, 6-12 months long.  Interstellar travel should be fairly routine for players.  I am the very beginning stages of developing this.

Rules light to moderate.  Although I love the movies, I don't want Star Wars or Alien or Star Trek.  Intelligent alien beings would probably exist, but players could not play one.  Years ago I glanced at Traveler and remember that I liked what I saw.  Not interested in learning a complex system.  I plan to doing "inspirational research" for a few months (reading novels, watching sci fi, setting up star systems and an overview of my world(s) and of course, learning new rules)

What edition of Traveler or other sci fi game is good?  
Why?
I define good in this context as:

-rules light to low end of rules moderate
- inspirational and good atmosphere (when you read the rules, you are drawn in - 1st edition Shadowrun and Symbaroum did this.)
- lots of good ideas in core rules
- system makes sense
- rules are a fun read or at least not tedious to get through

Thanks.

With regard to Traveller, I would go with one of three editions - Classic Traveller (CT; the three LBBs and supplements), MegaTraveller (MT), or Mongoose Traveller (MgT)/Cepheus Engine (CE). CE is the MgT engine with the original Traveller universe stripped out. Samardan Press (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse/pub/3066/Samardan-Press/subcategory/5350_5360/Cepheus-Engine), which produces CE, also has a nice guide to creating aliens that may fit your bill as well. CT and MT are available under GDW's flag at DTRPG, or you can get a good chunk of the books for CT or all of MT on disk for $35.00 per disk from Far Future Enterprises (http://www.farfuture.net/FFE-CDROMs.html). By far, the GURPS Traveller (GT) books - which are now available on CD at FFE's site - are the best read for the fluff.

Setting-wise, if you're looking for truly alien aliens as NPCs only, I'd run with 2300 AD. I haven't read up on the original system as of late, but Mongoose did update the setting for MgT (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/100670/2300AD-Core-Rulebook-Revised?src=hottest_filtered). The original edition from the 1980s and 90s can also be found on DTRPG and FFE's site.

Later!

Harl Quinn

I love Classic Traveller, although you have to work with the quirks of a near-40 year old system to get it to work the way you want. I have time for most other editions too, but the latest Mongoose edition is by far the most accessible and easy to play. It's broadly back-compatible with Classic material and has a multitude of options for character careers to build with. The default setting is the Third Imperium, but it's also been adapted to Mindjammer as an interesting alternative, and there is an upcoming campaign called Pirates of Drinax that is building a very strong reputation.

Classic. It is fully fleshed out without hitting the 'bloat' stage, really well engineered, fun, excellent balance of the things people enjoy doing in play, and easily played as either straight-up canon or molded to a universe of your liking. It is just a great game that doesn't need any major tweaks.

Have you read Stars Without Number?

It's an OSR / D20 / Traveller hybrid. The PDF is free.
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/86467/Stars-Without-Number-Free-Edition

As for Classic Traveller, it does the job excellently. I've run dozens of campaigns over the decades and I've had no problem modifying the rules to support whatever setting I was creating.

Just continue to use a generic system you like for your sci-fi setting. The player characters will basically be human in your game. You just need to pick a sci-fi setting that your players will like is all.

I'd go with the original 3 Little Black Books but I don't know in which format they are still available (if at all).

Two games that are quite Traveller-ish (the first more than the second) are:

Rogue Space (http://roguespacerpg.blogspot.de)
This feels like a rules-lighter interpretation of Traveller, with a bent towards older SF. There's no setting attached.

Hard][Nova (http://www.pigames.net/store/default.php?cPath=32)
This one is more space opera-like.

Both play very fast and have small, concise rulebooks.

I actually own the original box set, in beautifully pristine condition, but the original little black books are downloadable either from a CD-Rom sold over at the Far Future Enterprises webpage or just from DrivethruRPG these days I think. If you take the files to a good printer, I'm pretty sure you can get them to come out well. There is also a POD version of The Traveller Book, which was a complete collection of the core rules.

If we are looking at alternatives to Traveller, whilst still having a Traveller feel, then I'd also point out the excellent M-Space by Clarence Redd. It feels exactly like the mimilist style of Traveller, and has the same types of systems for spaceship, world and alien design, but it's based on the Mythras (RuneQuest 6) rules. It's completely self contained though.

All that said, I still think the best game for Traveller, these days, is the new Mongoose Edition.

Personally, I started with CT, but switched over to the Mongoose version when it came out.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;937437I'd go with the original 3 Little Black Books but I don't know in which format they are still available (if at all).

Classic Traveler (pretty much the whole shebang, but the LBBs are in there) is available as CD (and I'm guessing .pdf) from Far Future Enterprises (http://www.farfuture.net/FFE-CDROMs.html).

It's a bit like OD&D, and the 1e Mongoose is like an OSR or B/X or BECMI-- the original has some nuance that is lost to make the newer version easier for a newcomer, but the newer version is easier for a newcomer (and players who might not care too much).

To me, Mongoose Traveller (1st edition; I've never played 2nd) hits a nice sweet spot of playability, flexibility, and maturity as a system. Before that, I liked MegaTraveller, but though the system is good, chargen is a bit uneven.

Though Traveller does have some implicit setting assumptions, it is nowhere near as setting-laden as Shadowrun. The thrill of wonder of Traveller always came from the GM task of rolling a subsector and seeing what came out of it, and for the players, exploring it.

I'll second Mongoose Traveller.  Classic Traveller has a lot of sincere fans, but for me, coming to it late rather than having started with it back in the day, the skills working differently in regards to target number or stat bonus made it a lot more complex than it would seem from the rest of the system.  Mongoose's unified target number and modifiers vastly simplified things for me.

Stars Without Number is a possibility if class-and-level is a selling point and not a stumbling block (was a negative for me).

Thread has nice timing.  I've been looking to get into Traveller lately- that and Harnmaster.  Anyways, found a good price on Mongoose's Traveller 2nd ed and pulled the trigger on it last night.

Thanks for all the interest in the thread.

So Mongoose Traveller is essentially after GDW went away?

What is the Traveller feel?  I haven't played it before, but it seems to be the standard (or one of them) for sci fi exploration and big empire control and all that.

Traveller is an homage to classic science fiction.  Asimov, Niven, Clarke, Herbert, Tubbs, Norton, Piper and many others.  It is also heavily influenced by Star Wars which was also an homage to classic science fiction.  I always say that the great thing about Traveller's Third Imperium setting is that you can fit almost any sf story into it somewhere.  It's very open that way.  The Imperium isn't evil but an emperor or arch duke might well be. If Dulinor had held Capitol he might not have proven to be any better than Lucan.  Even so, the Third Imperium is more like Cthulhu than the devil.  Cthulhu doesn't care if you exist, doesn't harbor any more sentiment towards you than he would to a single bacterium.

Imagine if Starwars was more about interstellar politics and trade and more consistent in its approach to technology and science.  Instead of the force there are psionics which are not morally guided in any way. And that goes for all of Traveller.  Starwars is a morality play, Traveller is agnostic at best and down right rationalist at times.

So, giant space ships, strange worlds, weird aliens, humans that make the aliens seem normal, but with no overarching hero's journey.  No chosen one.  And somewhere outside of existence a funny little old alien is watching and waiting for something.

Quote from: Vic99;937475Thanks for all the interest in the thread.

So Mongoose Traveller is essentially after GDW went away?

What is the Traveller feel?  I haven't played it before, but it seems to be the standard (or one of them) for sci fi exploration and big empire control and all that.

You can play almost any type of classic science fiction and even the newer styles if you Mongoose Traveller. MongTrav1 has supplements covering newer styles like cyberpunk. But the thing is even classic Traveller is very flexible due to its lite mechanics.

With that being said the two most popular types of Traveller campaign have historically been either merchants or mercernaries. With a lot of the published adventures being set in the grey area of the law.

Quote from: Vic99;937475Thanks for all the interest in the thread.

So Mongoose Traveller is essentially after GDW went away?

It's been licensed to other companies. There have been GURPS Traveller books, D20 Traveller, Traveller hero, etc.

Mongoose's Traveller is close to the original mechanically, but being a bit more cleaned up and easier to collect. You can run most classic traveller adventures with Mongoose Traveller with relatively little adaptation.

QuoteWhat is the Traveller feel?  I haven't played it before, but it seems to be the standard (or one of them) for sci fi exploration and big empire control and all that.

Most campaigns involve a small group of interstellar wanderers in a space empire composed of a tapestry of widely differing worlds.

In most campaigns, the characters are merchants, mercenaries, or explorers, with a measure of troubleshooting/investigation possible as a sub-theme of many of those.

Quote from: Willie the Duck;937449Classic Traveler (pretty much the whole shebang, but the LBBs are in there) is available as CD (and I'm guessing .pdf) from Far Future Enterprises (http://www.farfuture.net/FFE-CDROMs.html).

This. You get _all_ the Classic Traveller stuff on CD for less than the cost of basic books for some systems.

Quote from: Vic99;937475What is the Traveller feel?  I haven't played it before, but it seems to be the standard (or one of them) for sci fi exploration and big empire control and all that.

If Star Wars is a cowboy western or samurai flick set in space, then Traveller is the age of sail. Distance is vast. Communication is slow (the only way to get a message back home is to send a ship with the message on board). Vessels have months of supplies, not lifetimes worth, and a vessel going on a 2 parsec voyage is going to have fuel for one two parsec voyage if it is a commercial run (since bringing fuel along means less room for salable cargo) or two two parsec voyages (if an exploration ship).
There is a big empire (in some places, depending on whether you use the assumed setting), but it is a big empire. The local government is mostly on its own but also mostly not bothered so long as there is little unrest and general taxes are paid on time (whether the emperium is benevolent, malevolent, or just bloated and ineffectual seems to change between books a bit, and of course you can easily change it on the fly). If the Imperium only has three corvettes in orbit, they only have 3 corvettes (plus the threat that they could come with more) to use to fight _____.
Piracy is stated to be common (although if you look at the actual game rules on upkeep and resource use it shouldn't be possible, but that's one of those "is D&D broken because the a common laborer couldn't survive on their listed wage?" kind of things. Pirates exist because we say they do).
Players are expected to be low-level traders, adventurers, or general "fixers." Most have a military, merchant, or similar background. It does feel a lot like many early age-of-sail adventure books (such as Robinson Crusoe before he gets shipwrecked) in that semi-knowledgeable and experienced individual go out into the wild frontier of a barely connected civilization and generally uncaring world and try to make their fortune (in a setting that really doesn't make it easy).

Mongoose Traveller 1st Edition and Classic Traveller are my go-to versions with all of the rest of the Traveller versions used for additional bits and bobs. Cepheus Engine allows for some very very good Traveller settings that are not part of the Official Traveller Universe.


And since I believe in try before you buy......


This is a link to a free download of Mongoose Traveller Book 0: An Introduction to Traveller (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product/58279/Book-0-Introduction-to-Traveller?term=book+0).



This is a link to a free download of a sample setting for Traveller using Cepheus Engine, the Clement Sector. (http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/182471/Introduction-to-Clement-Sector-2nd-Edition-OGL-Version?term=intro+to+clement+sector&test_epoch=0)

My go-to Traveller are Classic Traveller, Mongoose Traveller 1e and 2e, Traveller 5, the Cepheus Engine and Worlds Apart;). Been thinking of buying the T4 and TNE from the Far Future Enterpise site, too, but I'm putting it off for now.
Yes, I want to get the deal they offer, why do you ask:D?

Quote from: Vic99;937394-rules light to low end of rules moderate
- inspirational and good atmosphere (when you read the rules, you are drawn in - 1st edition Shadowrun and Symbaroum did this.)
- lots of good ideas in core rules
- system makes sense
- rules are a fun read or at least not tedious to get through

I re-read the OP and I realized that FADING SUNS would probably be an interesting option (and its easily converted to Traveller).

Fading Suns is (Traveller + 40k)/2 + WoD sprinkles. It's rules medium, and heavy on the inspiration and atmosphere. What I like best is there is super juicy stuff in the splats, but they are unnecessary since the Core Book (1e and 2e) did an A+ job packing in the flavor. Even after running multiple campaigns over the years, I don't feel constrained in the least by using the core book only, and the chargen is flexible enough so players create both distinctive PCs drilled into the setting AND with enough bits to make their special snowflakes.

Here's the wiki page for basic info
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fading_Suns

Here's Fading Suns core book (all you really need) for $11 with free shipping
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fading-Suns-Science-Fiction-Roleplaying-RPG-Core-Rulebook-Paperback-Book-/201732930413?hash=item2ef8383b6d:g:q-8AAOSw44BYFjmh

Here's info about the upcoming new edition
http://www.holistic-design.com/

Fading Suns looks good for source material.

I called around to 18-20 game/comic/rpg stores in my area.  No one has Traveller.  I was surprised.  A few of the 20ish employees never heard of it.  Didn't surprise me, but still.

Ended up ordering Mongoose 2nd ed core rules on amazon for $37.  I really wanted to buy from the local guys too.  However, didn't want to wait for them to order it for me either.

Thanks for all the input.

Good choice.  If you like the Mongoose Traveller 2E core rules, make sure to pick up the High Guard supplement.  Starships galore.

Well good. I've been waiting for a review of MgT 2e (as I'm sure the guys at Citizens of the Imperium call it).

That's other advice, both the main traveller forum (//www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/) and Mongoose (forum.mongoosepublishing.com) have active communities. The CotI one in particular was very active as of 1-2 years ago when I last checked. There are lots of resources available if you are looking for premade star maps or ship layouts or what-have-yous.

Eh, I checked out (and even subscribed to) the Citizens of the Imperium forum several months ago, but I perceived a really negative vibe to both Mongoose Traveller in general but in particular 2E from the staff and some of the regulars there, so I'm not sure how useful the forum would be from a rules standpoint.  Of course, I could be mistaken.  However, do check it out if you're interested in the official setting as it has oodles of information about it.

That's too bad.

Quote from: Vic99;937739Ended up ordering Mongoose 2nd ed core rules on amazon for $37.  I really wanted to buy from the local guys too.  However, didn't want to wait for them to order it for me either.

Thanks for all the input.

That's a good price. I didn't know Amazon sold the book. I paid retail. The Traveller RPG Google+ pages seem to be friendly than the old BBS forums and Facebook groups out there.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;937770That's a good price. I didn't know Amazon sold the book. I paid retail. The Traveller RPG Google+ pages seem to be friendly than the old BBS forums and Facebook groups out there.

There's a seller on Amazon, Sci Fi City that has it for $35.54 shipped.  That's where I got mine from.  Should be here in a week or so.

If you go with the Third Imperium setting, you can use the Traveller Map https://travellermap.com/. A resource pretty much unique to Traveller.

There is also the Traveller Wiki http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Main_Page

Quote from: Celestial;937747Eh, I checked out (and even subscribed to) the Citizens of the Imperium forum several months ago, but I perceived a really negative vibe to both Mongoose Traveller in general but in particular 2E from the staff and some of the regulars there, so I'm not sure how useful the forum would be from a rules standpoint.  Of course, I could be mistaken.  However, do check it out if you're interested in the official setting as it has oodles of information about it.

That's probably me.  Sorry...Mongoose really tends to go where I don't want them to.  I like lots of skills.  I don't tend to like modern / narrativist stuff.

Quote from: RunningLaser;937809There's a seller on Amazon, Sci Fi City that has it for $35.54 shipped.  That's where I got mine from.  Should be here in a week or so.

Sci Fi City is owned by the guys who own Studio 2 Publishing and print the books for Mongoose. No surprise there.

Quote from: estar;937824If you go with the Third Imperium setting, you can use the Traveller Map https://travellermap.com/. A resource pretty much unique to Traveller.

There is also the Traveller Wiki http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Main_Page

Damn.  Love that map.  Will have to take a closer look when I have some time.  Thanks!

I'd also vote for Mongoose Traveller. Though I think the one I've got and recently ran a kick-ass campaign with was the 1st edition. it's super-similar to the classic traveller rules, only with more material.

Quote from: David Johansen;937825That's probably me.  Sorry...Mongoose really tends to go where I don't want them to.  I like lots of skills.  I don't tend to like modern / narrativist stuff.

I dislike Mongoose because they claimed to OGL their Traveller and then removed from the licensed material all the stuff that would allow you to create characters or play the game.

ETA: But I try to be positive and point out the nice CDs from FFE with all the original Traveller stuff, instead of complaining about the above. Economically, you just can't beat it.

Quote from: Tod13;939028I dislike Mongoose because they claimed to OGL their Traveller and then removed from the licensed material all the stuff that would allow you to create characters or play the game.

Mongoose did, and it sucks. It does not reflect well on Mongoose at all.

However, you should take a look at Cepheus Engine. Remember how when WotC made 4E and the GSL pissed everyone off, so much so that Pathfinder came out? Well, Cepheus Engine is to Mongoose Traveller 1 what Pathfinder is to D&D 3.x. Did I mention that Cepheus Engine is OGL?

The final straw that enabled the Cepheus Engine was the disastrous replacement of the Traveller Logo program with the Traveller Aide Program on Onebookshelf. The result of the earlier SRD was a small group of 3rd party publishers focused on their own original settings. The TAS program is utterly hostile to retaining any rights to original settings (i.e. non Third Imperium) so it was a non-starter. Then Cepheus was released and pretty much all the third party guys switched over to using it.

The more they tighten their grip, the more IP will slip through their fingers.

Quote from: Vic99;937475What is the Traveller feel?  I haven't played it before, but it seems to be the standard (or one of them) for sci fi exploration and big empire control and all that.

I've never gotten to play Traveller, but during a recent spasm of SF RPG interest I read some MgT books and the LBB, aaaand:

To me, Traveller feels a little like Alien or Firefly: ragtag crew operates on thin profit margin in something a little like the (thanks poster up above) Age of Sail. Joss Whedon once described Firefly as 'the second act of Star Wars if, instead of picking up Luke and Ben, Han and Chewie just flew around picking up odd jobs, trying not to get arrested or murdered,' and he's always cited The Killer Angels as an inspiration. That slowness and vastness, the almost Greek-myth sense of humans trying to eke out a halfway decent life before some pitiless god accidentally steps on them or steals their child to be raised by goatherders.

I'm ambivalent about The Force Awakens in general, but the Tolkienesque irrupting-mythic-past setting of Jakoo -- those ruined Imperial ships! -- is perfect, and seems like a perfect Traveller setting.

Traveller grognards, do I have the right sense of it?

Seconding the endorsements of Stars Without Number, by the way -- the sandbox-generation tools are superb using even if you're not playing with the rules system. WotC should hire Kevin Crawford to lead a campaign-design book project for 5e.

Quote from: stuffis;939094I've never gotten to play Traveller, but during a recent spasm of SF RPG interest I read some MgT books and the LBB, aaaand:

To me, Traveller feels a little like Alien or Firefly: ragtag crew operates on thin profit margin in something a little like the (thanks poster up above) Age of Sail. Joss Whedon once described Firefly as 'the second act of Star Wars if, instead of picking up Luke and Ben, Han and Chewie just flew around picking up odd jobs, trying not to get arrested or murdered,' and he's always cited The Killer Angels as an inspiration. That slowness and vastness, the almost Greek-myth sense of humans trying to eke out a halfway decent life before some pitiless god accidentally steps on them or steals their child to be raised by goatherders.

I'm ambivalent about The Force Awakens in general, but the Tolkienesque irrupting-mythic-past setting of Jakoo -- those ruined Imperial ships! -- is perfect, and seems like a perfect Traveller setting.

Traveller grognards, do I have the right sense of it?

Seconding the endorsements of Stars Without Number, by the way -- the sandbox-generation tools are superb using even if you're not playing with the rules system. WotC should hire Kevin Crawford to lead a campaign-design book project for 5e.

Pretty much, but the common wisdom amongst fans is that Firefly was based on a Traveller campaign that Joss Whedon was in during college. Traveller is generic enough to stretch from the anime/manga Planetes to Niven and Pournelle's CoDominion stories to Babylon 5 to the more recent The Expanse. Allen Steele has played Traveller and mentions it in his Near Space stories. You can do Ghost in the Shell and The Martian with that system.

And Cepheus Engine makes it OGL.

Quote from: jeff37923;939051Mongoose did, and it sucks. It does not reflect well on Mongoose at all.

However, you should take a look at Cepheus Engine. Remember how when WotC made 4E and the GSL pissed everyone off, so much so that Pathfinder came out? Well, Cepheus Engine is to Mongoose Traveller 1 what Pathfinder is to D&D 3.x. Did I mention that Cepheus Engine is OGL?

Nice. Needs a bit of layout work, but I like what I see in it.

Ship Computers take no weight or space? Interesting update to, or bug in, the ship building rules. I work on HPCs (high performance clusters) with hundreds of computer nodes, that take up a room (or more). I have no problem with a ton or two of computer for a ship.

Quote from: Tod13;939108Ship Computers take no weight or space? Interesting update to, or bug in, the ship building rules. I work on HPCs (high performance clusters) with hundreds of computer nodes, that take up a room (or more). I have no problem with a ton or two of computer for a ship.

That was discussed and we just thought that the displacement was folded into the bridge tonnage.

Quote from: jeff37923;939110That was discussed and we just thought that the displacement was folded into the bridge tonnage.

Thanks. I did some googling and couldn't find anything offhand. It kind of makes sense as, within certain parameters of usage, there is very little size difference between a slow and fast computer.

Quote from: stuffis;939094Seconding the endorsements of Stars Without Number, by the way -- the sandbox-generation tools are superb using even if you're not playing with the rules system. WotC should hire Kevin Crawford to lead a campaign-design book project for 5e.

Yes, and that project should be titled "Star Frontiers".

Quote from: stuffis;939094To me, Traveller feels a little like Alien or Firefly: ragtag crew operates on thin profit margin in something a little like the (thanks poster up above) Age of Sail. Joss Whedon once described Firefly as 'the second act of Star Wars if, instead of picking up Luke and Ben, Han and Chewie just flew around picking up odd jobs, trying not to get arrested or murdered,' and he's always cited The Killer Angels as an inspiration. That slowness and vastness, the almost Greek-myth sense of humans trying to eke out a halfway decent life before some pitiless god accidentally steps on them or steals their child to be raised by goatherders.

I'm ambivalent about The Force Awakens in general, but the Tolkienesque irrupting-mythic-past setting of Jakoo -- those ruined Imperial ships! -- is perfect, and seems like a perfect Traveller setting.

Traveller grognards, do I have the right sense of it?

You described one world of it so far. 10,999 more to go.

Quote from: jeff37923;939051Mongoose did, and it sucks. It does not reflect well on Mongoose at all.

However, you should take a look at Cepheus Engine.

I'm glad to learn of Cepheus... 'cause I'd rather not buy anything from Mongoose ever again.

Hmmm.....a bit of Mongoose hate going on....

I dunno, to me it's just a business thing, and I don't really know the ins and out of decisions made regarding the pull back on OGL. Mongoose are the Traveller license holders though, and they have the overheads to deal with because of that.

Cepheus is alright but it is a retroclone, and while I am happy that third parties have somewhere to go (especially Paul Elliot's work with Orbital, etc), I don't really see the need for an edition war. We had enough of that with T5 vs MGT.

The basic reason why I am sticking with Mongoose Traveller, is because they have such a great line up of upcoming titles and I appreciate the facelift in presentation. Oh and the RPGSuite software.

So when Mongoose came out with MgT2, did they pull all the MgT1 pdfs?
Ok, still selling everything, good on them, so someone might have learned something from WotC's fiascos.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;939308Hmmm.....a bit of Mongoose hate going on....

I dunno, to me it's just a business thing, and I don't really know the ins and out of decisions made regarding the pull back on OGL.

Why do you assume it's hate and not a business thing as well:)? People want to make their own Traveller variants, Mongoose doesn't allow that for their newest version. The rational business decision is to use the OGL.
I don't want to buy often from Mongoose, either. But it's not hate, I just find their PDFs are priced way too high.

QuoteCepheus is alright but it is a retroclone, and while I am happy that third parties have somewhere to go (especially Paul Elliot's work with Orbital, etc), I don't really see the need for an edition war. We had enough of that with T5 vs MGT.

In Traveller's case, I've resolved the edition war long ago, at least for myself - by getting Classic Traveller, MgT1, MgT2, Cepheus and T5:D.
And I'm planning to get the CDs with TNE and T4 as soon as I can, and maybe GURPS Traveller as well.

QuoteThe basic reason why I am sticking with Mongoose Traveller, is because they have such a great line up of upcoming titles and I appreciate the facelift in presentation. Oh and the RPGSuite software.

Nothing wrong with that, either, as long as I'm concerned;).

Quote from: CRKrueger;939310So when Mongoose came out with MgT2, did they pull all the MgT1 pdfs?

They had not, last I checked.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;939308Hmmm.....a bit of Mongoose hate going on....

My dislike of Mongoose precedes anything they had to do with Traveller. So no edition war from me. They're just one of the few game companies that I won't buy from. Palladium used to be on that list but it's been so long since they've put out anything I might want...

Quote from: CRKrueger;939310So when Mongoose came out with MgT2, did they pull all the MgT1 pdfs?

Nah. All available, and compatible.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;939308Hmmm.....a bit of Mongoose hate going on....

Cepheus is alright but it is a retroclone, and while I am happy that third parties have somewhere to go (especially Paul Elliot's work with Orbital, etc), I don't really see the need for an edition war. We had enough of that with T5 vs MGT.

No edition wars happening. I can't speak for SpinachCat, but my dislike of Mongoose is their "fake" (IMO!!) release of Traveller under an open license, which specifically and explicitly left out rules necessary for playing the game.

I actually have several of their releases that came in Bundles of Holding, I think Megatraveller and Hammer's Slammer (Traveller) that are pretty good.

So what's the big deal about MgT2 systemwise?  Why do I want to do this (Mercenary, High Guard, Central Supply, Aslan, etc) all over AGAIN?

Quote from: TrippyHippy;939308Cepheus is alright but it is a retroclone, and while I am happy that third parties have somewhere to go (especially Paul Elliot's work with Orbital, etc), I don't really see the need for an edition war. We had enough of that with T5 vs MGT.

Serious does it make it a difference in regards to the rules with Cepheus considering CT, MT, TNE, T4, T20, GT, HT, MgT1, MgT2, and T5*. Between what was released under the OGL with Traveller 20 and what was released by Mongoose there enough to make a true clone that is very much Traveller. The trade rules, starship building, character creation, the tech assumption, the use of 2d6 is all there.

QuoteCT = Classic Traveller
MT = MegaTraveller
TNE = Traveller New Era
T4 = Marc Miller's Traveller
T20 = Traveller d20
GT = GURPS Traveller
HT = Traveller for Hero System
MgT1 = Mongoose Traveller, 1st edition
MgT2 = Mongoose Traveller, 2nd edition
T5 = Traveller 5th edition.

Quote from: CRKrueger;939347So what's the big deal about MgT2 systemwise?  Why do I want to do this (Mercenary, High Guard, Central Supply, Aslan, etc) all over AGAIN?

Nothing the big deal. It yet another variation of Classic Traveller in the same family as CT, MT, T4, and T5. Using 2d6 similar trade rules. If you don't have a later edition of the classic rules then this edition will work great. The only nice thing that there is a license for third party Third Imperium setting material. But nobody really taken advantage of that. I have issues with the TAS when it comes to original settings but for Third Imperium stuff I think it is a fair deal.

Part of the issue is the concerted work done part of the Traveller community as part of the Second Survey project housed at Traveller Map. The entire Official Traveller Universion has been or is under review and the result is stamped officially canon. So most of the intellectual excitement of Third Imperium fans has been poured into that project. And it looks like will be around for a long time as Traveller Map revamped itself last years to support different time periods in the history of the Third Imperum. Particularly the First Imperium Era.

Quote from: estar;939350Serious does it make it a difference in regards to the rules with Cepheus considering CT, MT, TNE, T4, T20, GT, HT, MgT1, MgT2, and T5*. Between what was released under the OGL with Traveller 20 and what was released by Mongoose there enough to make a true clone that is very much Traveller. The trade rules, starship building, character creation, the tech assumption, the use of 2d6 is all there.

Well, a lot of those rule-sets are actually quite different. CT, MT and MgT1 and 2 are pretty compatible, but TNE and T20 are based on D20 rolls, GT and HT use their own systems and T4 and T5 use dice pools.  

Not sure if anything matters with regards to an OGL or Cepheus but, y'know, Mongoose aren't obliged to share their license as an OGL. I do just see it as changing business arrangements for all parties involved - and I don't hold prejudices with any of them. Sarah Newton's Mindjammer will be another major, third party setting for MgT2 coming shortly, so I don't see Mongoose as holding anybody back on this sort of thing. They are just establishing what they want to get from their own license, and the arrangements to which they are responsible for. Fans can pick and choose what they want to play accordingly.

Quote from: CRKrueger;939347So what's the big deal about MgT2 systemwise?  Why do I want to do this (Mercenary, High Guard, Central Supply, Aslan, etc) all over AGAIN?

There are a few changes in rules, but nothing major really. More of a tidying and streamlining thing, where supplemental ideas have been incorporated into core. You can go to prison during character creation now though!

The real update is simply that the books are all full colour now and look much more appealing. For me, that's a big plus. For Mongoose, it was probably essential considering their competitors. For you, it may not be a big deal.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;939355The real update is simply that the books are all full colour now and look much more appealing.

I totally disagree. The isometric starship deckplans look like ass and the artwork for the equipment is not much better. Especially when compared to the work of Traveller artists who are still in the business and could have been tapped to do the work.

Quote from: jeff37923;939365I totally disagree. The isometric starship deckplans look like ass and the artwork for the equipment is not much better. Especially when compared to the work of Traveller artists who are still in the business and could have been tapped to do the work.

Well, that just sounds like grudge talk to me.

The artwork for equipment and deck plans, I think, is due to be associated with the electronic software. So, in time, that is the design that will come out when you design stuff yourself.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;939370Well, that just sounds like grudge talk to me.

Trippy, if I wanted to post grudge talk I would post about how Matt Sprange promised all of the third party publishers that nothing would change with the licensing agreement, I would talk about how reviews of MgT2e have been astroturfed*, and I would talk about how the playtest was a joke**. I would also say that if you buy Mongoose Traveller 2, spend the least amount of money possible.

As it is, I think that the artwork sucks and could have been done a whole lot better as it has been done so even in MgT1e.

* Now, if you are looking at reviews on RPGNet, understand that Sam Wissa wrote the RPGNet review as Sam W, signed on to the playtest as Nerhesi, and was one of the people responsible for these playtest decisions he is reviewing. Why the man does not admit to his involvement with the playtest while giving 5 star reviews speaks volumes. Take any glowing review with a grain of salt until you can be sure of the reviewer.

** A lot of it was Driscoll trolling people who made good suggestions to improve the game and were ignored. The Core Rules do not have spacecraft construction rules in them, even though the majority of playtesters disagreed with this. Many of the rule changes are just so people will buy a new rulebook and do not add to the game in a constructive manner. The Core Rulebook is bigger, with more pages, but less content because the page spaces are taken up by graphic arts layout nonsense - don't look for the elegance of older Traveller editions, including MgT1e.

I was involved in the playtest too, and had more than my fair share of interaction with Driscoll. But this is all by-the-by for me.

For me, Traveller in it's current Mongoose format is terrific. I like the art and layout, I like the interfacing with software, I like that the rules are elegant and easy.  The supplements that are lined up are inspiring. I have limited interaction with the third parties material, but good luck to them (I do like Paul Elliot's work and I also am excited by Traveller: Mindjammer, but the rest I'm simply ambivalent about). I have complete rules for now for starship design with High Guard, which has the complete spaceship design system in it. I prefer it that way, insofar that most beginning groups don't actually design ships anyway - they just choose from the iconic ones on offer in the core - while I no longer have to flip through two books because one is an 'advanced' supplement to the other. Its better integrated now. The upcoming boxset will also include all the rules from the core too.

You don't have to like it, but for my purposes the new Mongoose Traveller is a five star effort and that is that. Holding a grudge against a game, for the reasons you cite, is just unwarranted. There are plenty of gamers that were excited about a new edition of Traveller, and you can always pick up Cepheus or Classic Traveller if you prefer. Just quit with the whole edition war bullshit.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;939376You don't have to like it, but for my purposes the new Mongoose Traveller is a five star effort and that is that. Holding a grudge against a game, for the reasons you cite, is just unwarranted. There are plenty of gamers that were excited about a new edition of Traveller, and you can always pick up Cepheus or Classic Traveller if you prefer. Just quit with the whole edition war bullshit.

Bolding mine. OK, I get that you like this edition, great for you. I don't like this edition, great for me.

The only grudge I am holding is against the person who owns Mongoose Publishing and the decisions he made. I still advocate MgT1e. So quit with this edition war bullshit talk of yours. You are desperately trying to apply that label so that it shuts down the conversation from people who have opinions that do not think that MgT2e is all that and a bag of chips. Fact is, this new version that you love is one that several think could have been done better - and you don't like that. So fuck you and your intellectual dishonesty.

Quote from: RPGPundit;938979I'd also vote for Mongoose Traveller. Though I think the one I've got and recently ran a kick-ass campaign with was the 1st edition. it's super-similar to the classic traveller rules, . . .

Really? Please tell us more about the ways in which they're similar. Frex, how do the skill systems compare? How does combat compare?

Quote from: jeff37923;939381Bolding mine. OK, I get that you like this edition, great for you. I don't like this edition, great for me.

The only grudge I am holding is against the person who owns Mongoose Publishing and the decisions he made. I still advocate MgT1e. So quit with this edition war bullshit talk of yours. You are desperately trying to apply that label so that it shuts down the conversation from people who have opinions that do not think that MgT2e is all that and a bag of chips. Fact is, this new version that you love is one that several think could have been done better - and you don't like that. So fuck you and your intellectual dishonesty.

"Intellectual dishonesty"?! What sort of arsehole writes this shit about a game? Get over yourself.

If you want to play 1st edition, cool. Do so. You want to advocate your preference, cool. Do so. Nobody has argued anything else. But you're just talking smack as usual. You made a comparison before that MgT2 was the equivalent of D&D4, but it's just not for the basic reason that the rules are still about 99% compatible. You could run any setting based on MgT1 on MgT2 also. The Cepheus rules make a few updates too, and is free if you want, but it's still the same thing. This particular line of attack you are driving is unedifying and utterly boring, quite honestly.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;939386"Intellectual dishonesty"?! What sort of arsehole writes this shit about a game? Get over yourself.

I will when you stop being intellectually dishonest.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;939386You made a comparison before that MgT2 was the equivalent of D&D4

Yes, and if you weren't being willfully ignorant you would have realized that I was talking about how the game companies used a set of new rules to try and put the OGL genie back in the bottle. Just like how WotC tried to make a D&D game impossible for 3PP to use, which ended up creating Pathfinder. The MgT2e license bait-and-switch has similarly created an environment where the Cepheus Engine has come about.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;939386but it's just not for the basic reason that the rules are still about 99% compatible. You could run any setting based on MgT1 on MgT2 also.

Unless you are using any starship created with MgT1e which are now incompatible with MgT2e thanks to the new power allocation rules.

So the Cepheus Engine is Trav's Pathfinder?

WTF must the clones has asstastic names?

Kudos to the Cepheus Engine dudes. I will have to download a copy.

Quote from: stuffis;939094Traveller grognards, do I have the right sense of it?

Yes, but Traveller can be a sci-fi toolbox too. So while Trav RAW can easily look like Alien or Firefly, you can take the system and setting to many different places and settings.

Quote from: Spinachcat;939391So the Cepheus Engine is Trav's Pathfinder?

Yes.

Quote from: Spinachcat;939391WTF must the clones has asstastic names?

It has to do with telomeres and genetics, I think. ;)

Quote from: jeff37923;939387I will when you stop being intellectually dishonest.

I don't think either of us even knows what you mean by that. I say I like Mongoose's Traveller, so I must be being "intellectually dishonest" because you don't?! It's just another bigoted, fuck-witted argument.

QuoteYes, and if you weren't being willfully ignorant you would have realized that I was talking about how the game companies used a set of new rules to try and put the OGL genie back in the bottle. Just like how WotC tried to make a D&D game impossible for 3PP to use, which ended up creating Pathfinder. The MgT2e license bait-and-switch has similarly created an environment where the Cepheus Engine has come about.

Oh my god, I'm crying about this issue as you can see. If people want to make a retroclone because another company has a change of business plans, then fair enough. But to claim that it is some sort of heinous act that Mongoose want to control the terms of their own license is childish. If other companies wanted to keep Traveller OGL, then why didn't they dig out the cash for Marc Miller instead? And beyond anything else, the rules have hardly changed from one edition to the other in any significant way.....

QuoteUnless you are using any starship created with MgT1e which are now incompatible with MgT2e thanks to the new power allocation rules.

Well there we go. We all need to lose sleep on the matter, clearly.

And there's me still using Classic modules with it and all....

The Cepheus Engine is fueled by the hate for Mongoose is all.

Quote from: Spinachcat;939391WTF must the clones has asstastic names?

Cepheus is a constellation.

QuoteYes, but Traveller can be a sci-fi toolbox too. So while Trav RAW can easily look like Alien or Firefly, you can take the system and setting to many different places and settings.

Correct. Indeed, the default Imperium setting is so diverse and wide ranging that you can effectively play any sci-fi tale in it while staying in cannon.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;939399Indeed, the default Imperium setting is so diverse and wide ranging that you can effectively play any sci-fi tale in it while staying in cannon.

Or you can use the rules in pretty much every edition (I've never seen one without them, but I suspect they've been omitted from MgT2 along with starship creation) to roll up your own (sub)sector and ignore the Third Imperium entirely.  There's no reason to shoehorn your campaign into the 3I unless you think it will add something to your game.

Quote from: nDervish;939402Or you can use the rules in pretty much every edition (I've never seen one without them, but I suspect they've been omitted from MgT2 along with starship creation) to roll up your own (sub)sector and ignore the Third Imperium entirely.  There's no reason to shoehorn your campaign into the 3I unless you think it will add something to your game.

The rules for sub-sector design are 100% still there in the corebook, but you are right about everything else.

With regards to the starship creation they've instead included a mini-catalogue of spacecraft (19 in total) to choose from, and then put all the starship creation rules themselves into the High Guard book. All other sections of the rules from 1e remain as before (although they only detail two alien species in chargen beyond humanity).

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;939395The Cepheus Engine is fueled by the hate for Mongoose is all.

Now that's funny!

Quote from: TrippyHippy;939394I don't think either of us even knows what you mean by that. I say I like Mongoose's Traveller, so I must be being "intellectually dishonest" because you don't?! It's just another bigoted, fuck-witted argument.

Yes, intellectual dishonesty, because you are translating "I don't like this version" into "Ohmifuckinggod Edition War" which is blowing it completely out of proportion. Quit being a drama queen you insufferable prat.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;939394Oh my god, I'm crying about this issue as you can see. If people want to make a retroclone because another company has a change of business plans, then fair enough. But to claim that it is some sort of heinous act that Mongoose want to control the terms of their own license is childish.

This is a good example of your intellectual dishonesty. The business relationship between Mongoose and the third party publishers was a change of plans for Mongoose, but was a lie told to the third party publishers about what was actually going on with the license which caused a tremendous shake up amongst them. You calling it a heinous act is you being melodramatic again, but setting up a license that would require a creator to surrender all of their IP rights and a good chunk of profits to Mongoose when they hadn't had to for years before? It comes close to that.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;939394Well there we go. We all need to lose sleep on the matter, clearly.

Only if you do not wish to pay twice for a complete game system that isn't crippleware. I'll just drop that in the same round file as Shaw Driscoll's comment on having a separate book for starships.

Quote from: Shawn DriscollWell, I don't create ships or use them very often in my games so I don't care.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;939394And there's me still using Classic modules with it and all....

How much work have you had to put in to determine the power points? Or do you just ignore them?

Quote from: TrippyHippy;939403With regards to the starship creation they've instead included a mini-catalogue of spacecraft (19 in total) to choose from, and then put all the starship creation rules themselves into the High Guard book.

Except there are no rules for modifying your starship in the Core Rulebook or details of any of the ship's systems, you have to pay extra for those by purchasing High Guard.

Quote from: jeff37923;939410snip

Are you getting palpitations while you type all this?

Mongoose can do whatever they like with their license, and indeed we don't know as a fact that there weren't changes brought about to that license through negotiations with Marc Miller himself (who may have stipulated he wanted more restrictions seeing as he is busy licensing and creating other Traveller products currently). If third parties wanted more, then they should have negotiated and paid for a license themselves. Mongoose doesn't have any obligations to them - just to themselves as a business, to the fans (which you are not) and Marc Miller as the IP owner. In fact, this is actually one very important difference with WotC's D&D4E, in that they didn't need to worry about license agreements seeing as they owned the IP and, as such, it demonstrates what a bad analogy the Cepheus/Pathfinder argument is.

Either way, if you are clearly upset about it as you are, then I see at least one good thing to have come out of the new edition. :)

Quote from: TrippyHippy;939412Are you getting palpitations while you type all this?

No. Are you? If you ask nicely, I can go easier on you since you are of a more fragile disposition.

Quote from: jeff37923;939413No. Are you? If you ask nicely, I can go easier on you since you are of a more fragile disposition.

Do your worst! :)

Also, if you can state your own vested interests in the Cepheus Engine here, we can see if we can do something for you, eh?

Quote from: TrippyHippy;939415Do your worst! :)

The best commentary I have seen on the artwork from the MgT2e Central Supply Catalog.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]628[/ATTACH]

What is your vested interest Jeff?

Quote from: TrippyHippy;939412Mongoose doesn't have any obligations to them - just to themselves as a business, to the fans (which you are not)

Mongoose lost me as a fan of the MgT2e version of the game, yes. I am still a fan of MgT1e, however. How many times must I repeat myself to a cockwomble like you?

Quote from: TrippyHippy;939412Either way, if you are clearly upset about it as you are, then I see at least one good thing to have come out of the new edition. :)

Ah, mea culpa, your entire purpose was to troll. Well played, sir. Well played.

Quote from: jeff37923;939419Mongoose lost me as a fan of the MgT2e version of the game, yes. I am still a fan of MgT1e, however. How many times must I repeat myself to a cockwomble like you?

Ah, mea culpa, your entire purpose was to troll. Well played, sir. Well played.

Well there is more to it than that, actually. I want to get to the bottom of this - you don't come across as just a fan. Which third party publisher are you involved with?

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;939395The Cepheus Engine is fueled by the hate for Mongoose is all.

So sayest the least qualified person on Terra to comment on this topic.

BTW where are your TAS submissions? Surely a individual with your towering expertise would have more than a few products up there by now.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;939376I I also am excited by Traveller: Mindjammer, but the rest I'm simply ambivalent about).

Mindjammer has a separate traditional license with Mongoose. So the fuckup that is TAS for original setting publishers doesn't impact them.

Quote from: estar;939425Mindjammer has a separate traditional license with Mongoose. So the fuckup that is TAS for original setting publishers doesn't impact them.

You mean they paid their dues and didn't expect something for nothing as a right?

Quote from: TrippyHippy;939386"Intellectual dishonesty"?! What sort of arsehole writes this shit about a game? Get over yourself.

If you want to play 1st edition, cool. Do so. You want to advocate your preference, cool. Do so. Nobody has argued anything else. But you're just talking smack as usual. You made a comparison before that MgT2 was the equivalent of D&D4, but it's just not for the basic reason that the rules are still about 99% compatible. You could run any setting based on MgT1 on MgT2 also. The Cepheus rules make a few updates too, and is free if you want, but it's still the same thing. This particular line of attack you are driving is unedifying and utterly boring, quite honestly.

You missed the part about the use of D&D4e and the GSL. Yes D&D 4e has a controversy over the mechanics but it also had another one over the licensing. That is the that is most apt when comparing the two situations. And what compounded it to D&D 4e levels within the Traveller Community was Matt PERSONALLY interacting with third party publishers and assuring them that everything will be just fine switching over to TAS as the substitute for the old Traveller Logo program. Then he promised to look into fixing the license to allow retention of original IP and nothing came of that.

For the most part it played out pretty quietly. For one thing, the Traveller community is used to supporting multiple sets of rules all the same time.

I will say that the TAS is a fair deal in my opinion if you want to write Third Imperium material. Although because of other trends in the Traveller community that is not happening right now.

Quote from: estar;939429You missed the part about the use of D&D4e and the GSL. Yes D&D 4e has a controversy over the mechanics but it also had another one over the licensing. That is the that is most apt when comparing the two situations. And what compounded it to D&D 4e levels within the Traveller Community was Matt PERSONALLY interacting with third party publishers and assuring them that everything will be just fine switching over to TAS as the substitute for the old Traveller Logo program. Then he promised to look into fixing the license to allow retention of original IP and nothing came of that.

For the most part it played out pretty quietly. For one thing, the Traveller community is used to supporting multiple sets of rules all the same time.

I will say that the TAS is a fair deal in my opinion if you want to write Third Imperium material. Although because of other trends in the Traveller community that is not happening right now.

The point I am making is that Wizards owned the D&D IP. Mongoose do not own the Traveller IP, they license it from Marc Miller. Mongoose had to negotiate to get the IP licence, and we don't know what stipulations in that licence were impressed upon them. But beyond that, the rule changes are so minor and the 1st Ed OGL is still ongoing that it hardly registers as a big deal to consumers.

If third parties want to continue with the OGL through Cepheus or whatever then good luck to them. But to try and trash another competing company product, simply because they are looking after their own business interests, is childish and, if indeed someone is connected to a third party publisher, unprofessional and unethical. Moreover, it doesn't do their own businesses any good - there are plenty of people who would still buy third party products - with the Traveller logo filed off - but still use MgT as their core base. I've done that myself with Zozer games products.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;939426You mean they paid their dues and didn't expect something for nothing as a right?

Nobody twisted Mongoose and Marc Miller's arm to release an SRD under the Open Game License.

As for expecting nothing for something the essence of the "deal" with the OGL is build up more support for your game than otherwise would exist. If you don't want that support than don't release IP under the OGL. It is an assurance that the 3PP publishers won't be fucked over by the whims of the publishers when they put the time and money into their products. As well as a clear declination of which IP, 3PP are allowed to use.

And in the specific case of Mongoose and Traveller, what fucked them was not the new edition. Sure some grumbled but everybody was ready to get on board until they read this little gem.

Quote5. Rights You Grant to OBS

(a) No Reversion. Due to our licensing arrangement with the Owner and the collaborative nature of the Program, you are granting us broad licenses in your Work and your User Generated Content included in your Work, and the rights to your Work will not be reverted once it is published in the Program. You will have the ability through online tools at OBS websites to stop public display and sale of your Work on OBS marketplaces, but not to stop the sale of works of other authors in the Program even when such works use your User Generated Content that you originally created in your Work and thereby became part of the Program IP for other authors to use.

(b) Exclusive License to your Work. Effective as of the date you setup your Work through the Program on OBS’s website, you grant us the exclusive, irrevocable license for the full term of copyright protection available (including renewals), to develop,

license, reproduce, print, publish, distribute, translate, display, publicly perform and transmit your Work, in whole and in part, in each country in the world, in all languages and formats, and by all means now known or later developed, and the right to prepare derivative works of your Work.

(c) Exclusive License to all User Generated Content in your Work. Effective as of the date we first make your Work available through the Program, you grant us the exclusive, irrevocable license for the full term of copyright protection available (including renewals), to all User Generated Content included in your Work. You agree that the User Generated Content is available for unrestricted use by us without any additional compensation, notification or attribution, including that we may allow other Program authors, the Owner and other third parties to use the User Generated Content.

Nobody with an original setting is going to publish it under those terms. However in terms of the Third Imperium SETTING, they are fair because any work done in the 3I is being done in Marc Miller's playground.

Then Matt promised to look into changing this to allow original IP to be retained. Most were willing to accept that if when Mongoose Traveller 2e was going to sunset that their specific 2e product would also be sunset.

Quote
June 7th 2016 (http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showpost.php?p=541113&postcount=160)
Just as a quickie, the IP issue is being looked at by OBS right now, and we should have something sorted pretty soon. They just want to make sure all their ducks are waddling in the right direction before making changes.

They have also promised more exposure for the TAS program, which should bring in more interest outside the hardcore Travellers who already know where to go and what to do.



That hasn't been done. When I look at the license today is still says.

QuoteChangelog:

No changes yet.

Now it January 2017 and Matt ducks every opportunity when people, like me, asks me what been happening on this issue. This not the way to handle it can keep people happy. The only reason it not a total shitstorm within the community because the pool of 3PP is small, and the Cepheus Game Engine "fixed" the problem for them. Just look at the number of products and number of publishers  for Cepheus versus TAS. People voted with their feet and Mongoose is not seeing one dime of that due to their screw up.

Quote from: estar;939431Nobody twisted Mongoose and Marc Miller's arm to release an SRD under the Open Game License.

But it's still not for any other party to dictate what goes into an OGL or not.

If they don't like it, then nobody is twisting their arms to go along with it either.

In the case of Matt, I can't speak for him, but as a consumer I would rather he was focussing on getting his own product out in a timely manner than spending time trying to negotiate OGL terms with seemingly hostile third parties. I'm not sure how he would be seeing one dime of anybody else's sales in an OGL either.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;939430If third parties want to continue with the OGL through Cepheus or whatever then good luck to them. But to try and trash another competing company product, simply because they are looking after their own business interests, is childish and, if indeed someone is connected to a third party publisher, unprofessional and unethical.

There are other issues at play here.

Mongoose has had a history of badly edited, badly produced products, that were mildly overpriced for what you got. This was across nearly all their lines not just Traveller. Now Mongoose Traveller 2e does represents an improvement in editing and layout in my opinion but it still over priced in my vew. The fact remains that in terms of the game it was change for change's sake.  It clearly the designed to be Traveller but just different enough to warrant repurchasing the whole line.

For me I don't really give a shit about that. I been with Traveller since 1979 and seen the whole evolution of the line and got books from every iteration. MgT2e is Yet Another Traveller Edition in a long line of Traveller Edition. I the only thing that is stupid about this edition as a Traveller RPG is not having basic Starship Construction in the core book. But that is a minor issue in my view. Having said that, apparently during the playtest program, certain people agendas were pushed pissing off other people creating rancor. So there is that. But overall until the TAS fuckup most were onboard with supporting 2nd edition.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;939432But it's still not for any other party to dictate what goes into an OGL or not.

If they don't like it, then nobody is twisting their arms to go along with it either.

Sure if there wasn't an OGL to begin with. But in this case there was for the 1st edition SRD. There is an existing community in a relationship with Mongoose. Mongoose, by their actions, broke off that relationship. And then they aggravated things by promising to try to fix it and never doing it. But there the thing. It not a big deal, the 3PP who cared now have Cepheus to rely on. And it is somewhat likely that if Matt and Mongoose ever get around to fixing the TAS, more than one would jump into that.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;939432In the case of Matt, I can't speak for him, but as a consumer I would rather he was focusing on getting his own product out in a timely manner than spending time trying to negotiate OGL terms with seemingly hostile third parties.

I argue that given the chain of events that lead to Cepheus that doesn't bode well for Matt getting products out in a timely manner. As in today's market Mongoose uses a stable of freelancers to write their products. It not like they have a large in-house staff doing writing. In essence a bunch of third party individuals producing material under license (likely a work for hire).  So it is legitimate in my view to level criticism about their treatment of one set of 3PP. Again the reason there are hostile 3rd parties is Mongoose own doing by not communicating what the hell is going on.

Quote from: estar;939433There are other issues at play here.

Mongoose has had a history of badly edited, badly produced products, that were mildly overpriced for what you got. This was across nearly all their lines not just Traveller. Now Mongoose Traveller 2e does represents an improvement in editing and layout in my opinion but it still over priced in my vew. The fact remains that in terms of the game it was change for change's sake.  It clearly the designed to be Traveller but just different enough to warrant repurchasing the whole line.

Speaking as a consumer, I appreciate the massive step up in presentation in the game. I also appreciate the electrical resources you get, and I have no issue with the price I pay. The sales numbers and profit margin are Mongoose's business, so it's up to them to determine the right price levels. Considering that poor editing and presentation has been something frequently cited against their first edition, I don't agree that these changes weren't  warranted. With new licence negotiations, it was pretty inevitable that there would be a new edition regardless. The new box set, Drinax campaign, software and miniatures game all are exciting future products for me, however.

QuoteFor me I don't really give a shit about that. I been with Traveller since 1979 and seen the whole evolution of the line and got books from every iteration. MgT2e is Yet Another Traveller Edition in a long line of Traveller Edition. I the only thing that is stupid about this edition as a Traveller RPG is not having basic Starship Construction in the core book. But that is a minor issue in my view. Having said that, apparently during the playtest program, certain people agendas were pushed pissing off other people creating rancor. So there is that. But overall until the TAS fuckup most were onboard with supporting 2nd edition.

With the new High Guard book in hand, I am appreciating having it all in one place for once, but yes, this is a minor issue. Good luck to you for whatever choose to do, in business or gaming, but the rancour for whatever reason isn't going to be good for anyone in the long term.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;939436With the new High Guard book in hand, I am appreciating having it all in one place for once, but yes, this is a minor issue. Good luck to you for whatever choose to do, in business or gaming, but the rancour for whatever reason isn't going to be good for anyone in the long term.

While I appreciate the good wishes, I will add criticism is not rancour and in fact vital. When it comes to me, the one major screw up I see is the lack of communication over the TAS program.

It is also my view that the situation is more likely embrassement on Matt's part than malice. A lot of people would say, "Oh this all about bucks for Mongoose." What I think happened is the following is

1) The DM's Guild program is released including use of the Forgotten Realm
2) Matt sees that it is a way for 3PP Imperum product to be published and for royalties to be generated for both Mongoose and Marc Miller.
3) Matt contacts OBS and gets things setup. Probably read the licenses and totally misses implication for original settings. And likely focused on the whole enabled 3PP Third Imperium stuff anyway.
4) Mongoose Traveller 2e is released.
5) TAS program is released
6) Initial feedback come back in and Matt goes "Oh Shit"
7) The issues are such that Matt acknowledges working on a solution.
8) Contacts OBS and finds out something make it problematic to change so needs to spend some actual time to fix it.
9) Matt focuses on product releases and doesn't have time to deal with it.
10) Cepheus is released.
11) Nearly all the original IP 3PP switch over to using it.

The major problem is Matt not talking about the solution to the TAS issues since #7. Probably at this point personal feelings are involved due to how the internets rolls on these issues. Then Cepheus comes out. Either Matt is going "Well I can ignore this because they fixed themselves" or personally pissed off about the 3PP guys doing an end run. Or he could be so busy that it just all slipped way down the list.  Probably a mix of all three. But we don't know because he doesn't say anything about it anymore. Not even in his State of Mongoose post where you think this would come up.

Quote from: estar;939437While I appreciate the good wishes, I will add criticism is not rancour and in fact vital. When it comes to me, the one major screw up I see is the lack of communication over the TAS program.

It is also my view that the situation is more likely embrassement on Matt's part than malice. A lot of people would say, "Oh this all about bucks for Mongoose." What I think happened is the following is

1) The DM's Guild program is released including use of the Forgotten Realm
2) Matt sees that it is a way for 3PP Imperum product to be published and for royalties to be generated for both Mongoose and Marc Miller.
3) Matt contacts OBS and gets things setup. Probably read the licenses and totally misses implication for original settings. And likely focused on the whole enabled 3PP Third Imperium stuff anyway.
4) Mongoose Traveller 2e is released.
5) TAS program is released
6) Initial feedback come back in and Matt goes "Oh Shit"
7) The issues are such that Matt acknowledges working on a solution.
8) Contacts OBS and finds out something make it problematic to change so needs to spend some actual time to fix it.
9) Matt focuses on product releases and doesn't have time to deal with it.
10) Cepheus is released.
11) Nearly all the original IP 3PP switch over to using it.

The major problem is Matt not talking about the solution to the TAS issues since #7. Probably at this point personal feelings are involved due to how the internets rolls on these issues. Then Cepheus comes out. Either Matt is going "Well I can ignore this because they fixed themselves" or personally pissed off about the 3PP guys doing an end run. Or he could be so busy that it just all slipped way down the list.  Probably a mix of all three. But we don't know because he doesn't say anything about it anymore. Not even in his State of Mongoose post where you think this would come up.

I'd say that the rancour is less with your own comments, which are perfectly reasonable, and more to do with other posters. However, there is some irritation on the Mongoose Traveller Facebook page about the number of 3PP advocates continually attacking the game at the moment. Its just not necessary - the differences between editions are so minor and all parties still have product available to sell.

With regards to your points, I think it's a pretty good analysis although you may have already answered your question as to why Matt hasn't said anything yet - a mix of all three. That and, if Cepheus is to be a competitor, why would he give it free advertising in his own State of Mongoose address?

Quote from: TrippyHippy;939439I'd say that the rancour is less with your own comments, which are perfectly reasonable, and more to do with other posters. However, there is some irritation on the Mongoose Traveller Facebook page about the number of 3PP advocates continually attacking the game at the moment. Its just not necessary - the differences between editions are so minor and all parties still have product available to sell.

I was not aware of the commentary on Facebooks, can't be everywhere at once I guess. But I was part of the discussion on TravellerRPG forums. In my view most of the 3PP publishers and fans have a right to be upset. Because you forget when 2nd edition announced there were was a lot of discussion in the vein "What does it this mean for my line or my favorite 3PP line for fans". Matt laid everything out and when the actual release moment came it turned out to be completely unsuitable. So yes people feel upset especially after they felt like they put in their due dilgence in making sure the transition is smooth. For many the moment of truth only came at the very last moment before they clicked accept and they read the actual license.

That was not a good way to keep an existing relationship on good terms. But to Matt's credit he did agree that change was needed and promised to look into it. And then....

well just that we are left with the ... and nothing since.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;939439With regards to your points, I think it's a pretty good analysis although you may have already answered your question as to why Matt hasn't said anything yet - a mix of all three. That and, if Cepheus is to be a competitor, why would he give it free advertising in his own State of Mongoose address?

I wasn't clear, I was referring to the fact there was no mention of the issues with TAS which is something that should have been in there. The fact that Cepheus wasn't mentioned is both logical and fine.

Well, let's break it into two different issues then. The relationships between different publishers, and the relationships between fans of the game (the consumers). If the various publishers can sort out their issues with licenses then dandy.  

As fans and consumers, however, we have no control over what happens - so maybe it would be best to let things sort themselves out (or not) and just let people enjoy the games they have invested in without all the rancour and baiting comments. I buy Mongoose Traveller, Cepheus products and TAS products. There is no conflict of interest from my perspective.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;939449Well, let's break it into two different issues then. The relationships between different publishers, and the relationships between fans of the game (the consumers). If the various publishers can sort out their issues with licenses then dandy.  

As fans and consumers, however, we have no control over what happens - so maybe it would be best to let things sort themselves out (or not) and just let people enjoy the games they have invested in without all the rancour and baiting comments. I buy Mongoose Traveller, Cepheus products and TAS products. There is no conflict of interest from my perspective.

Are they separate? Logically I agree with you. However you have to remember that Traveller is a niche hobby of a niche hobby. From my work with the OSR, it obvious the lines are not clear cut when you are dealing with just a small group. It better to think of it as a community where everybody is a potential customer and a potential partner and act accordingly.

In this case we have some fans who make the leap into publishing using the 1st edition SRD. They in turn now only created new fans for Mongoose Traveller but fans for their own work. Now there is a change and the license transition was screwed up, complicating the life of the 3PP publishers. Since we are talking a small group here, with people regularly talking about their favorite hobby, word is going to spread and spread fast thanks to the internet.

A person can bemoan the facts of the situation and how it was better when the interaction between publisher and customer was more impersonal. But that how it works today. And it been around long enough that for people who pay attention there are several right ways of handling these things and several wrong ways that make it worse. So far Matt by not being communicative has went down a path that will not resolve the issue anytime soon.

The right way would have immediately have the owned the mistake, explained how it works well for 3PP Third Imperium publishing, and try to fix with OBS. Now Matt gets a 1/2 credit for #3 but he did not to the other two. Thus more rancor is generated and you see what you see on facebook. And because there is serious rancor as result of the licensing situation, this magnifies other minor issues like the fact that MgT 2e is just different enough and personal preferences in regards to art and layout.

And now Jeff's posts has made me aware that Shawn Discoll was heavily involved in the playtest feedback. Given how he acts on this forum that could not have been sunshine and puppies for everybody involved in that forum.

You are right that these should be non-issue but given the situation it doesn't surprise me.

And it won't be fixed until Matt owns the mistakes and takes proactive steps to resolve it. Of course he could just decide to live with it and push on. That works as long as he willing to put up with the criticism. But I personally wouldn't see that as viable in the long given the small size of the Traveller hobby.

And finally I am only somewhat supportive of Mongoose's harshest critics. I have a long history of involvement in various forms of organized play like being a founder and the first president of my college's gaming club, to running a LARP, to publishing my own works. I am in agreement with you that debates over rule changes, art, and layout, are minor in this specific case. And counterproductive to bring up. However the licensing issue and how it played out is a SERIOUS issue in the world of the Traveller hobby. Matt messed up with this. I am NOT going to go out of my way to pound him on this but when it comes up appropriately, I am going to politely but firmly call him out on it. The last time prior to this thread was his State of the Mongoose thread on TravellerRPG.

Quote from: estar;939452Are they separate?

Yes they are because, as a consumer it makes bugger all difference to me where licenses go. If the product is good enough, then that is the be all and end all. Case in point, myself following The Design Mechanism after Mongoose lost the RuneQuest license.  

QuoteAnd it won't be fixed until Matt owns the mistakes and takes proactive steps to resolve it. Of course he could just decide to live with it and push on. That works as long as he willing to put up with the criticism. But I personally wouldn't see that as viable in the long given the small size of the Traveller hobby.

And finally I am only somewhat supportive of Mongoose's harshest critics. I have a long history of involvement in various forms of organized play like being a founder and the first president of my college's gaming club, to running a LARP, to publishing my own works. I am in agreement with you that debates over rule changes, art, and layout, are minor in this specific case. And counterproductive to bring up. However the licensing issue and how it played out is a SERIOUS issue in the world of the Traveller hobby. Matt messed up with this. I am NOT going to go out of my way to pound him on this but when it comes up appropriately, I am going to politely but firmly call him out on it. The last time prior to this thread was his State of the Mongoose thread on TravellerRPG.

Write a letter of complaint directly to him then? I mean, there's every chance he won't be even aware of this thread for example.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;939454Write a letter of complaint directly to him then? I mean, there's every chance he won't be even aware of this thread for example.

Yes. You have to email him if you want something done, or at least confirmation/closure on something.

Quote from: jeff37923;939417[ATTACH=CONFIG]628[/ATTACH]

I have no dog in you folks fight. But this picture amuses the hell out of me. In sarcastic and serious ways.

This thread reminds me that I really want to get Orbital;).

Quote from: CRKrueger;939347So what's the big deal about MgT2 systemwise?  Why do I want to do this (Mercenary, High Guard, Central Supply, Aslan, etc) all over AGAIN?

If you're happy with 1e you really don't.  I'm most interested in the changes to the trading game, but many campaigns never go there.

I may someday buy the whole 2e line if I actually get into a game of it, but I've converted to a just-in-time delivery model for buying Mongoose products.  Their editing and quality control is bottom of the industry.  See, for instance, 1e's first printing of Book 1: Mercenary, which was so bad they couldn't fix it with an editing pass, or even with a re-write, and ended up getting a different author to write a different book of the same name for the second printing.  But they still shoveled the first printing out the door!  And their captive audience ended up paying for both editions, so what did they have to lose?  I'm looking for second printings of 2e before I spend any money.

Mongoose certainly has had some terrible publications in the past, in terms of editing and the actual physical quality. They had an abortive effort to having their own printing warehouse about a decade ago, and a well known deadline heavy production schedule that has compromised editing. In the case of books like Mercenary, I never bothered with the physical copy at all (just the PDF) because it was just as easy to print bits out on a photocopier at the same level of quality frankly. I will say that their Judge Dredd RPG for the Traveller system was very good, full colour and sturdy quality - so they can do it right when they try!

This is an issue addressed in their annual 'State of Mongoose' statement, though, and they have committed to a lower turnover of books published with the purpose of increasing quality control. The Traveller 2e books I have are certainly a step up. You are right in that there is no compelling reason to switch to 2E from 1E if you don't want to, but as I say, I am actually enthused by their upcoming products so I am in.

So let me get this straight...

D&D goes OGL which spawns Pathfinder which eats up profits...

Trav goes OGL which spawns Cepheus which eats up profits...

RQ goes OGL which spawns Mythras which eats up profits...

...and companies still think OGL is a good idea?

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;939395The Cepheus Engine is fueled by the hate for Mongoose is all.

Beats skimming gas giants.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;939412Are you getting palpitations while you type all this?

You bet! We're all one handed keyboard cowpokes around here!

I don't think that Cepheus has eaten any profit from Traveller as such - as I say they're both pretty compatible and the sales of Traveller appear to remain high. Not yet, anyway. Matt may have to deal with the issues highlighted her sooner rather than later however, to prevent any building animus. But regardless, I think the corebooks coming out this year will be happening regardless without much disruption.

Quote from: Dave R;939601See, for instance, 1e's first printing of Book 1: Mercenary, which was so bad they couldn't fix it with an editing pass, or even with a re-write, and ended up getting a different author to write a different book of the same name for the second printing.  But they still shoveled the first printing out the door!  And their captive audience ended up paying for both editions, so what did they have to lose?  I'm looking for second printings of 2e before I spend any money.

I swapped MgT1 1st printing Mercenary and 1st printing Highguard books with Mongoose for 2nd printing books without issue.

Quote from: Spinachcat;939606...and companies still think OGL is a good idea?

Oh, and yes, I think OGL as a business idea has had its day.

Quote from: Spinachcat;939606...and companies still think OGL is a good idea?

Apparently both Evil Hat and Wizards thought that it was a good idea for Fate and D&D 5e.

Quote from: Spinachcat;939606D&D goes OGL which spawns Pathfinder which eats up profits...

And without it D&D 4e is released, tanks, and D&D is dead as a RPG brand and the RPG Industry implodes badly.

The situation was entirely of Wizard's doing. If they haven't tried to go all Forge, bring everything in-house, and break comparability with D&D 3.X. Then there would have no opening for Paizo to exploit. The combination of all three decision created the circumstances where they were knocked out of #1. In the end it worked out because Wizards were able to craft a version of D&D that more people like and retook the #1 spot away from Paizo.

Quote from: Spinachcat;939606Trav goes OGL which spawns Cepheus which eats up profits...

One, I highly doubt Cepheus is eating Mongoose's profit. Since 2000 there always been more than one edition of Traveller in print. There was Traveller 20 and GURPS Traveller, now there is Mongoose and Traveller 5. And the situation where Cepheus is again a situation of Mongoose's own creation by screwing up the third party licensing program.

Quote from: Spinachcat;939606RQ goes OGL which spawns Mythras which eats up profits...

Mythras is not OGL. It is a straight up complete re-write of Mongoose Runequest 2 and the only third party license are the traditional ones negotiated with Design Mechanism.

 In fact it Mongoose who tried to spike RQ6 by releasing Legends by using the OGL. In end both succeeded somewhat.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;939612Oh, and yes, I think OGL as a business idea has had its day.

I disagree. The tradeoff is still valid, I will give you a limited license to my IP and in exchange for you producing products for my game and the license won't sunset leaving you with a work you can't sell.

Quote from: estar;939614Apparently both Evil Hat and Wizards thought that it was a good idea for Fate and D&D 5e.

Neither Evil Hat or Wizards allow retro clones of their core books though, do they?

Quote from: Spinachcat;939606RQ goes OGL which spawns Mythras which eats up profits...

If there's a BRP retroclone it's Gore... which is CoC-ish, kinda... and I don't think it's eating up any profits at all, even with Chaosium's troubles in the recent past.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;939620Neither Evil Hat or Wizards allow retro clones of their core books though, do they?

Yes you easily make retro clones with either. In fact there is Red Box already out and Dragon Heresy soon to be published.

As for Fate it basically a toolkit so the various 3PP setting end up being mini core books but for that setting.

But for both a major factor is the fact they are both "in print" and well supported by the publisher. This is a major factor and why the OGL doesn't lead to publisher losing sales for their current product line. For the vast majority of gamers it matters that it is a book with the label D&D on it and that Wizards is the publisher. The same with Fate and Evil Hat.

And both successfully co-opted a number of people that would purse their own project. Wizards with their DM's Guild and Fate by actively recruiting authors from their community. The OGL will be a problem only if they try to shit can the current edition. Even then if the new edition has merit like with 5e and MongTrav 2e that will not be a big factor.

With D&D 4e Wizards had multiple fuckups in succession that fueled the rise of Paizo. With that as an example of what not to do, Wizards successfully leveraged 5e to vault back to #1. And not they didn't repeat what they did 3e. Yes they have an OGL, yes it helps them . But I will be the first to admit it just one of the many things Wizards did right to make D&D #1 again.

And not even the most important thing. The most important thing was to make a game people wanted to play based on listening rather just throwing something out and hope it sticks based on a bad theory.

Quote from: Spinachcat;939606So let me get this straight...

D&D goes OGL which spawns Pathfinder which eats up profits...

Trav goes OGL which spawns Cepheus which eats up profits...

RQ goes OGL which spawns Mythras which eats up profits...

...and companies still think OGL is a good idea?

I can't talk about the D&D/PF situation, but it seemd to me that the OGL-based games were only getting players that wouldn't have bought into 4e no matter what. In fact, if not for the OSR and PF, other systems might have got some more following (and the players of those might have been harder to get back to the D&D style).

In the case of Runequest and Traveller, however, I can speak up, since I've been following them since a long time:).

And in this case, we're used to having different variants of the system to pick from. Traveller edition wars have been following the "Classic Trav rules them all", "go fuck yourself, we only play the much slicker MgT1e" and "you all suck, T5 has all that and then some", "give me some TNE/T20/MT, bitches", "don't forget GURPS can do that, too" routine long before MgT2e and Cepheus existed. Complete with me snickering on the sides and eating popcorn:p.

The d100 discussions have always been similar. "I still play RQ2+RQ3 and see no reason to move", "MRQ2 for the sweet, sweet Manoeuvres, baby", "the Big Gold Book can do it all" and so on and so forth and...

And of course, the deal of having people invest money into developing your setting and system is as good as ever;).

I think its generally true that edition proliferation, whether from the original producer or knock offs, tends to evolve inevitably toward a shambolic wasteland of pointless distinctions without differences. D&D has 8 or more official versions (O, 1-5, H, B/E, evolving through to rules cyclopedia). But the experience at the table is basically the same for all of them, and none has evolved substantially in creative content (spells, monsters, styles of play, major classes, things you can do, etc.) from the original. I like the style and production qualities of the 1E core books so they tend to get the nod from me, but honestly it is all the same stuff. Same with playing RQ. Same with Traveller. And Pendragon. And Call of Cthulhu. And so on and so forth through any of the multi-edition game lines. It is a total waste of everyone's time and energy. Particularly when you start re-publishing the same adventures under different rules sets. I view Traveller as just a clearer than usual case of this phenomenon: there is virtually nothing in later editions that handled quite well in the original.

Wrong, quite a few things are handled differently. And to some people, obviosly not you, those differences matter:).
Which means that in the end, more editions make you more likely to get people that wouldn't be interested in your single edition;).

Quote from: Dave R;939601If you're happy with 1e you really don't.  I'm most interested in the changes to the trading game, but many campaigns never go there.

I may someday buy the whole 2e line if I actually get into a game of it, but I've converted to a just-in-time delivery model for buying Mongoose products.  Their editing and quality control is bottom of the industry.  

Or you could just look at what happened to the playtesters. The Beta version of the MgT2e Core Rulebook had to be purchased in order to playtest, with the understanding that the money spent could be used as a credit for the completed MgT2e Core Rulebook when it was made available in PDF or hardcover format. Well, the PDF did not have any of the corrections that were pointed out as needed during the playtest, it was an editing and quality control disaster. This situation became worse with the hardcover being released because there were two different printers for the MgT2e hardcover - Studio 2 Publishing and Lightning Source. There are different levels of print quality that you can choose when you go through DriveThruRPG and Lightning Source for a printed book and Mongoose chose the cheapest one. The MgT2e books printed by Studio 2 Publishing are fine, crisp clean printing and solid colors. The MgT2e books sent to the playtesters and printed by Lightning Source had fuzzy printing, color runs, and wavy pages like they were bound before the ink had fully dried - and the playtesters who chose to have a hardcover, paid for that.

That is not an edition war complaint, that is a production and customer service complaint.

Quote from: Larsdangly;939676It is a total waste of everyone's time and energy. Particularly when you start re-publishing the same adventures under different rules sets. I view Traveller as just a clearer than usual case of this phenomenon: there is virtually nothing in later editions that handled quite well in the original.

For some good comparison/contrast for your perusal, take a look at The Traveller Adventure for Classic Traveller and Aramis: The Traveller Adventure for MgT1e or look at Secrets of the Ancients for Classic Traveller and Secrets of the Ancients for MgT1e. It is pretty enlightening.

Quote from: jeff37923;939702]That is not an edition war complaint, that is a production and customer service complaint.

I was a play tester too. I paid for the playtest files in full knowledge that they served as 'down-payment' for a game I wanted to invest in - they have re-edited the files multiple times before the hardcopy was release, and all these progressive updates were free. I get all my pdf files included for free when I pre-order my hardcopy which are printed in good copy, by arrangement via email with Matt.

If you have a production and customer complaint, and want something actually done about it, then contacting the seller is the best way to go about it.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;939722I pre-order my hardcopy which are printed in good copy, by arrangement via email with Matt.

So you agree that you have to make a special arrangement with the owner of Mongoose Publishing to get a good hardcover copy if you were a playtester, which was not the original agreement.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;939722If you have a production and customer complaint, and want something actually done about it, then contacting the seller is the best way to go about it.

Tried that. Got ignored.

Quote from: jeff37923;939703For some good comparison/contrast for your perusal, take a look at The Traveller Adventure for Classic Traveller and Aramis: The Traveller Adventure for MgT1e or look at Secrets of the Ancients for Classic Traveller and Secrets of the Ancients for MgT1e. It is pretty enlightening.

Please tell me more! I am a CT/MT kinda guy, own both original modules. What are the differences to the JJAbrams versions?

Quote from: Settembrini;939725Please tell me more! I am a CT/MT kinda guy, own both original modules. What are the differences to the JJAbrams versions?

They both show what is some of the best and worst aspects of the Mongoose approach.

Best first - The original Secrets of the Ancients was somewhat lackluster and once you played through the module, you were left with a feeling of "That's all?" The Mongoose reboot has expanded the module from 52 half-size pages to 202 full-size pages and turned the Final War from a single completed conflict to a still ongoing conflict which the PCs are dragged in to help fight. It jumps from unlikely and implausible but possible right in to Star Trek/Doctor Who levels of transhumanist pseudoscience - which does appeal to a significant segment of the market. Of the two, the Mongoose reboot is the superior one (especially since it was originally free).

Worst last - The reboot Aramis: The Traveller Adventure is practically a word-for-word reprint of The Traveller Adventure, but with far crappier artwork. Diagrams and maps of the actual adventure locations are poorly traced versions of the originals and lack their definition and crispness of lines. The only redeeming part of this module were the deckplans by Ian Stead (which were offered as a separate free PDF by Mongoose). If you own the original The Traveller Adventure, there is no reason to buy the Mongoose version reboot.

Quote from: jeff37923;939723So you agree that you have to make a special arrangement with the owner of Mongoose Publishing to get a good hardcover copy if you were a playtester, which was not the original agreement.

Sending an email is hardly a special arrangement.

QuoteTried that. Got ignored.

Sounds like a plan, that.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;939751Sending an email is hardly a special arrangement.

Then why did you have to do it to get good quality hardcover books?

Most reputable publishers do not require their customers to specifically request good quality in what they pay for.

Quote from: jeff37923;939754Then why did you have to do it to get good quality hardcover books?

Most reputable publishers do not require their customers to specifically request good quality in what they pay for.

It was more of a polite enquiry really, seeing as it is the same arrangement used by other publishers I have bought from. He does also publicise the same arrangement to anyone who listens on forums and the like too and actively encourages people to buy from print runs over POD.

Maybe something to consider.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;939722I was a play tester too. I paid for the playtest files in full knowledge that they served as 'down-payment' for a game I wanted to invest in - they have re-edited the files multiple times before the hardcopy was release, and all these progressive updates were free. I get all my pdf files included for free when I pre-order my hardcopy which are printed in good copy, by arrangement via email with Matt.

If you have a production and customer complaint, and want something actually done about it, then contacting the seller is the best way to go about it.

I was getting all kinds of updated core rule changes from Matt during both the playtest and beta test of the game. I bought the hardcover from Mongoose when I heard who was doing the printing. It had a couple items missing in the chapter on ships. I didn't buy the PDF, which had those things included in it afterwards. I'm not a PDF guy, and the minor update didn't seem worth buying the rules again.

Quote from: jeff37923;939726They both show what is some of the best and worst aspects of the Mongoose approach.

I concur with Jeff, Mongoose Secret of the Ancients is much better than the original. You are better off with the original PDF or buying an original copy of the Traveller Adventure.

Ok, so some homework for Jeff and Rob:

List every Original Traveller module that Mongoose has reprinted and tell us which one to get for each.
Thanks in advance. :D

Quote from: TrippyHippy;939755It was more of a polite enquiry really, seeing as it is the same arrangement used by other publishers I have bought from. He does also publicise the same arrangement to anyone who listens on forums and the like too and actively encourages people to buy from print runs over POD.

Maybe something to consider.

That's great, except you could not use the credit for buying the playtest on a print run, only on POD.

Maybe something to consider.

Quote from: CRKrueger;939775Ok, so some homework for Jeff and Rob:

List every Original Traveller module that Mongoose has reprinted and tell us which one to get for each.
Thanks in advance. :D

Sure, it will have to wait until I have some time. Most of them are reprinted in Signs & Portents as articles.

Quote from: CRKrueger;939775Ok, so some homework for Jeff and Rob:

List every Original Traveller module that Mongoose has reprinted and tell us which one to get for each.
Thanks in advance. :D

Well it not simple for example Beltstrike is more of an adventure-supplement for Asteroid Belt in a generic setting. While GDW's Beltstrike is about the Bowman System in the Spinward Marches.

For everything but Aramis: The Traveller Adventure you will get value out of having both works with the same title.

My general recommendation before buying anything Mongoose to look at several review, try to browse the produce if you can before buying. For me their entire line is pretty much hit or miss. It not the worst line of Traveller product ever produced, that honor goes the Marc Miller Traveller Line (T4) but it is down there. But even T4 has some gems in it.

My top preferences are

1) Digest Group
2) Classic Traveller from GDW
3) Other 3PP Classic Traveller supplements
4) GURPS Traveller
5) Mongoose Traveller 1e Core Rules
6) Mongoose Traveller 2e Core Rules + High Guard
7) Traveller20, Traveller Hero. (Nice but their own thing)
8) Traveller New Era
9) Most of the Mongoose Traveller Line.
10) Traveller 5th edition
11) Marc Miller Traveller (T4)


The last three Traveller campaigns I ran all used Mongoose 1st edition core rules with a lot of Classic Traveller (GDW, Digest, FASA, etc) supplement with a dash of GURPS Traveller. I only bought a handful of supplements from Mongoose. If I was to run another Third Imperium campaign I would probably use Cepheus. Definitely use Cepheus + Orbital for my Majestic Stars setting.

This is the shelf of Traveller stuff I own. Note the labels were done with a paint program.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]629[/ATTACH]

Quote from: jeff37923;939726They both show what is some of the best and worst aspects of the Mongoose approach.

Best first - The original Secrets of the Ancients was somewhat lackluster and once you played through the module, you were left with a feeling of "That's all?" The Mongoose reboot has expanded the module from 52 half-size pages to 202 full-size pages and turned the Final War from a single completed conflict to a still ongoing conflict which the PCs are dragged in to help fight. It jumps from unlikely and implausible but possible right in to Star Trek/Doctor Who levels of transhumanist pseudoscience - which does appeal to a significant segment of the market. Of the two, the Mongoose reboot is the superior one (especially since it was originally free).

Worst last - The reboot Aramis: The Traveller Adventure is practically a word-for-word reprint of The Traveller Adventure, but with far crappier artwork. Diagrams and maps of the actual adventure locations are poorly traced versions of the originals and lack their definition and crispness of lines. The only redeeming part of this module were the deckplans by Ian Stead (which were offered as a separate free PDF by Mongoose). If you own the original The Traveller Adventure, there is no reason to buy the Mongoose version reboot.

Thank you so much! Back then, I made the Grandfather Storyline mesh with my own in that there was a hidden war between Yaskodray and the Pak Protectors. Alas, when on the Ringworld, two players became Protectors.

If they don't get Traveller 5.1 out soon (as promised) I'll probably dust off my re-write and use that for a campaign I want to run.

The set up is a mercenary / governor game on a balkanized TL6 world.  With the players running small nations and mercenary companies.  More wargame than rpg but with battles being fought in 15mm.  The TL will allow people to use their Team Yankee and Flames of War armies if they want.  Combat will be modified some :D  But what I really need is a working version of Vehicle Maker.  I don't want to get into a Fire, Fusion, and Steel type of design project.  

Squad attacks will be handled as scaled up autofire attacks.  I'll probably go with Damage +1d6 rather than in dice and divide the Armor values by 3 or 4, I'll have to look at the numbers pretty closely.  I'm not sure on the sequence.  There's a lot to say for I go U go if you're handling big fights.  Simultaneous results are a bit too results oriented for my liking.

Quote from: jeff37923;939779That's great, except you could not use the credit for buying the playtest on a print run, only on POD.

The credit was all in on the pdf. Either way, your protests are misdirected because nobody here will be able to help you.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;939814The credit was all in on the pdf. Either way, your protests are misdirected because nobody here will be able to help you.

You view them as protests, I view them as letting potential customers know about Mongoose shenanigans so that Traveller enthusiasts know what not to spend their money on.

See, I'm not looking for help. The damage has already been done to me. I'd just rather that similar damage does not happen to others.

Are there any Traveller supplements that expand psionics or other "powers".

Quote from: jeff37923;939832You view them as protests, I view them as letting potential customers know about Mongoose shenanigans so that Traveller enthusiasts know what not to spend their money on.

See, I'm not looking for help. The damage has already been done to me. I'd just rather that similar damage does not happen to others.

So in other words, as pointed out before, you are simply posting with a grudge. Well done you.

Quote from: Baron Opal;939840Are there any Traveller supplements that expand psionics or other "powers".

MgT1 Traveller had Book4: Psion. It was pretty good, and I don't think the core Psionic system has really changed at all, so should be 100% compatible with Mg2 also. T4 had Psionic Institutes, which operates under a different core system, but still has some worthwhile material.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;939857So in other words, as pointed out before, you are simply posting with a grudge. Well done you.

Troll on, brother! Troll on!

Quote from: jeff37923;939887Troll on, brother! Troll on!

It's not trolling to call you out on your grudge.

Anyhow, time will out on the matter - I'm pleased to see more Traveller product is on it's way. :)

Quote from: Black Vulmea;939382Really? Please tell us more about the ways in which they're similar. Frex, how do the skill systems compare? How does combat compare?

It's pretty much the same system, just with some more options added.

Quote from: RPGPundit;940122It's pretty much the same system, just with some more options added.

Well, it's the same system with standardized modifiers for attributes [(Attribute/3)-2] and a standard success/failure formula of "2d6+ DM, if any (Attribute Modifier+Skill Modifier+Gear Modifier)=8+/-Difficulty".

There are some details, like levels of success (hitting the TN exactly, missing by 1, hitting it by 1-5, missing by 1-5, missing by more than 6, hitting by 6+).
Those allow for Chains of Rolls (like rolling Recon to find where the sensors are, and potentially getting anything from -2 to +2, depending on your success level, on the Stealth roll you intended to make). You can make chains of rolls anywhere, if it makes sense.

Still, even chain rolls are mostly optional. And that's about it as far as changes go, indeed;).

Quote from: RPGPundit;940122It's pretty much the same system, just with some more options added.

It is? How does the Vacc Suit skill in LBB Traveller compared to 'goose Trav' work again? The Admin skill? The Bribery skill?

Could you also tell me about how initiative and evasion in The Traveller Book and 'goose Traveller are resolved?

Anything at all to show you know jack and/or shit about 'classic' Traveller that you didn't read on a forum would be great.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;940201It is? How does the Vacc Suit skill in LBB Traveller compared to 'goose Trav' work again? The Admin skill? The Bribery skill?

Could you also tell me about how initiative and evasion in The Traveller Book and 'goose Traveller are resolved?

Anything at all to show you know jack and/or shit about 'classic' Traveller that you didn't read on a forum would be great.

What your point? They are different editions but there are far more common elements between Classic Traveller, MegaTraveller, T4, and both editions of Mongoose Traveller than there are with the other Traveller editions.

It feasible to use characters created by Mongoose Traveller and run them using Classic Traveller rules. Or vice versa. Granted mixing and matching characters created by two different editions will have issues because different editions generate more or less skills during character creations. But then it again this was problem from the get go with the difference between Core/Citizens of the Imperium characters vs. Mercenary/High Guard/Merchant/Scouts characters.

Quote from: estar;940204What your point? They are different editions but there are far more common elements between Classic Traveller, MegaTraveller, T4, and both editions of Mongoose Traveller than there are with the other Traveller editions.

It feasible to use characters created by Mongoose Traveller and run them using Classic Traveller rules. Or vice versa. Granted mixing and matching characters created by two different editions will have issues because different editions generate more or less skills during character creations. But then it again this was problem from the get go with the difference between Core/Citizens of the Imperium characters vs. Mercenary/High Guard/Merchant/Scouts characters.

I think the point is that how skills are handled in CT is completely different from how skills are handled in MgT.

I'm not saying that this is a bad thing! For some people the skills in CT are too loosey-goosey (being a product of OD&D mid-70s RPGs). For others the unified task resolution system found in MgT (which brings it into alignment with post 1980 RPG design) is a wonderful thing.

And, as Black Vulmea points out there are several other differences between the two games. Concrete differences that will affect gameplay, and will appeal to different people for different reasons that come down to anything from taste to expectations of danger, conflict, tactics, and so on.

My guess is if one really like CT's Throw system, then you won't be that fond of MgT. (I am in this camp.) But if you were never fond of CT, or were waiting for someone to finally "fix" the skill system then MgT is what you've been waiting for. (Since I don't think CT's skill system is broken, I don't need it to be fixed, and the work done on MgT is extraneous.)

And, as Black Valumea points out there are other differences as well. These differences will affect the kind of game play, as they influence danger, tactics, expectations and more. They are different games in many ways. I think that's the point.

Note: I'm not in any way to get into a pissing match on any of this. The original Traveller (Books 1-3) works great in my view, but it is a distinctly different beast in application and play than MgT. But because different people want different things it's awesome both games, offering different application and play, are available to different people.

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;940212I think the point is that how skills are handled in CT is completely different from how skills are handled in MgT.

I am missing the distinction. You roll 2d6 add your skill try to bet a target number. In CT it was ad-hoc as to what that target number is. But in general it was a number between 6 and 10 with modifiers. Mg T has a consistent answer to what the numbers should be for all tasks. But the basic idea is the same.

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;940212I'm not saying that this is a bad thing! For some people the skills in CT are too loosey-goosey (being a product of OD&D mid-70s RPGs). For others the unified task resolution system found in MgT (which brings it into alignment with post 1980 RPG design) is a wonderful thing.

It only loosey-goosey because each area of the rules handled it in their own way on how you apply your skill and attributes to a 2d6 roll. Like OD&D each section was it owns mini-game using the character sheet as a starting point. IN MT and subsequent edition the generic idea of a task was defined. Then each area of the rules categorized various things as being easy, average, difficult, etc. But in the end it amounted to rolling 2d6+skill+modifiers.

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;940212And, as Black Vulmea points out there are several other differences between the two games. Concrete differences that will affect gameplay, and will appeal to different people for different reasons that come down to anything from taste to expectations of danger, conflict, tactics, and so on.

I agree there a different feel between the various editions that use 2d6. But we are talking about the difference between OD&D, Mentzer D&D, AD&D 1st and AD&D 2nd. Yeah there are differences but compared to try using D&D material with GURPS or Runequest, it is a non-issue. I picked OD&D in the form of Swords & Wizardry as the foundation for my MW rules because it results in more gritty feel than AD&D 1st does. But it not a big difference just a difference.

Quote from: estar;940204What your point?

That I don't think Pundejo knows his ass from a sticky knot-hole when it comes to black box or TTB-era Traveller.

Let's take bribery, frex. In 1e 'goose Traveller, ". . . to make a skill check, a character rolls 2d6 + his Skill Level + his Characteristic DM + any other DMs, and tries to get 8 or more ("Skills & Tasks," p. 48, emphasis in the original). 'goose Traveller doesn't include Bribery as a skill at all - it's folded into the Persuade skill, with no specific examples of offering a bribe as to attribute, difficulty or time ("Persuade," pp. 56-7). In The Traveller Book. Bribery is a skill with resolution based on the law level of the world on which the bribe is offered, skill or its absence, and the reaction roll of the non-player character who is the target of the bribe ("Bribery," p. 22) - as the skill description notes, this means that success varies with how authoritarian the state is, with corruption being most prevalent on worlds with the most stringent laws, which is an incredibly powerful statement on the nature of the implied setting.

Most of 'classic' Traveller's skills work similarly. There is no 'standard target number' until some ten years into its development, and it was introduced through JTAS by DGP, not a core book in the system. LBB skills often have their own discrete resolution systems, and attributes are rarely incorporated except on an ad hoc basis by the referee. The introduction of the DGP Universal Task Profile seriously devalued a number of LBB skills, such as Vacc Suit skill which offers a +4 modifier for each skill level in the LBBs but drops to +1 per level in DGP's system.

Can you FLAILSNAIL this shit together? Sure, but you could do the same thing with 1e AD&D and 2e Boot Hill - hell, it was right there in the DMG ("Sixguns & Sorcery." pp. 112-3). Calling these systems - and the many changes in the combat systems - "super-similar" is just fucking ignorant of the rules and the history behind them.

Quote from: estar;940204But then it again this was problem from the get go with the difference between Core/Citizens of the Imperium characters vs. Mercenary/High Guard/Merchant/Scouts characters.

You wanna know why I'm such an impatient fucker all the time? It's shit like this.

Original, 'classic' Traveller caps the number of skills and skill levels at INT + EDU - frex, if you have INT 5 and EDU 8, you cannot have more than 13 total skills and levels, say Pilot-4, Streetwise-2, Gunnery-2, and Computer-1. The main difference between basic and advanced character generation, then, is that advanced characters are more likely to hit that maximum sooner than basic characters. This means advanced characters tend to leave the service sooner and start the game younger and get fewer mustering out benefits because they serve fewer terms. If you choose to keep your character in the service after hitting your skill max, then you are risking multiple survival rolls per term for nothing more than a chance at attribute bonuses - INT and EDU bonuses are the ones most worth chasing, if they're available - and an extra mustering out roll.

So this isn't a "problem" to anyone who understands what the fuck is going on. It's a gambling strategy, such as going to college or technical school to increase INT and EDU to raise your skill max while giving up a term worth of benefits and getting older.

Quote from: estar;940215I am missing the distinction. You roll 2d6 add your skill try to bet a target number. In CT it was ad-hoc as to what that target number is. But in general it was a number between 6 and 10 with modifiers. Mg T has a consistent answer to what the numbers should be for all tasks.

I am in the awkward position of saying, "Yes" to everything you just typed, but "No" when you type this:

QuoteBut the basic idea is the same.

I would suggest that "ad-hoc" vs. "formalized" are, well, utterly different things, producing (and requiring) a completely different set of expectations and application of play.

The point for me is this difference between ad-hoc and formalized. And since the difference matters to me, a vital difference that has all sorts of implications, I can't see them as being the same basic idea at all.

I agree with you that the adventures can be moved from one rules set to the other. But that's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about the move in emphasis from early RPG design that puts most of the weight of play onto the shoulders of the Players to the post-1980 design that shifts, more and more, the weight of play onto the character sheet.

This is why the skill list for MgT is substantially longer than that found in CT, because we're going to keep checking that character sheet time and time again in MgT to get things done. In contrast, in original Traveller play, we're going to be doing lots of things without rolling dice at all, or the Referee making situationally based rolls up on the spot. These rolls will be built with input from the Players and Referee, adding together the elements that can be added as DMs and setting the Throw number.

I will say now that the distinction between these two types of play can often be subtle. But the different rules produce different kinds of play.

For what its worth, I think MgT is closer to all post-CT rules (starting with Digest Group Publication's Task System. Again, I see the value for lots of people for a unified task system. I simply prefer the older, less-refined rules of Classic Traveller. I like the need for talk between the Referee and the Players they provoke, the need to look at the situation, tools at hand, and any other details that can matter.

The details can matter with MgT, of course. But like most skill based games it is easy to fall into the trap of grabbing dice, making the roll, and glossing over the fictional details. I like the fact that without those fictional details coming to the front Classic Traveller falls apart.

This is a matter of my taste, of course, and not anything I'd push on anyone or say they'd be doing it wrong for playing a different game.

Edited to Add: Cross-posted with BV... but what he said as well. Without the sputtering anger, of course. But yeah.

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;940220Cross-posted with BV... but what he said as well. Without the sputtering anger, of course..

The hate is swelling in you now. Take your keyboard. Use it. I am unarmed. Strike me down with it. Give in to your anger.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;940219Can you FLAILSNAIL this shit together? Sure, but you could do the same thing with 1e AD&D and 2e Boot Hill - hell, it was right there in the DMG ("Sixguns & Sorcery." pp. 112-3). Calling these systems - and the many changes in the combat systems - "super-similar" is just fucking ignorant of the rules and the history behind them.

I am well aware of the rules and the history behind them. So what? I can use Pirates of Drinax with CT as readily as I can use Twilight Peak. That what most referee care about.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;940219You wanna know why I'm such an impatient fucker all the time? It's shit like this.
that advanced characters are more likely to hit that maximum sooner than basic characters. This means advanced characters tend to leave the service sooner and start the game younger and get fewer mustering out benefits because they serve fewer terms.

By your own words resulted more players with characters maxed out or near maxed out skills  than with Book 1 or CotI. This was a problem. Everybody my group knew that Book 4,5,6, & 7 character were better than their counterparts for precisely the reason you outlined. You were way more likely to wind up with a character with a full boat of skills than using Book 1 or CotI. Doesn't change my point.

You are making the same damn arguments that AD&D fans make about OD&D and vice versa. Yes there is a fucking difference. but in terms of running of a campaign it trivial to use material from one to the other. So what Mongoose doesn't have bribery. If you decide to use a Mongoose Traveller NPC character as is just know to use his Persuade skill in lieu of bribery. Or fuck just scratch out Persuade and write in Bribery.

With TNE, GURPS Traveller, Traveller20, and Hero Traveller. It not so simple. Pretty much they are their own game.

Quote from: estar;940230That what most referee care about.

Any referee with two warm neurons should be able to mashup games. Again, look at "Sixguns & Sorcery," back in the early days of the hobby - would you call 1e AD&D and 2Boot Hill "super-similar" with a straight face?

Quote from: estar;940230By your own words resulted more players with characters maxed out or near maxed out skills  than with Book 1 or CotI.

Bullshit. That's not even close to what I'm saying.

Try to pay attention this time: Basic characters take more terms to reach their max, but they face fewer survival rolls (one per term as opposed to up to four per term) and earn more mustering out benefits in the process than advanced characters. There's nothing in that which says basic characters are less likely to reach their max. A character with INT 7 and EDU 7 can hit the max in six terms, provided you choose a career which makes the most of your attribute strengths for survival and commission/promotion. Once you muster out, you can continue to add or improve skills through trade school and study, which an advanced character who maxed skills can't do unless they increase their EDU score first, meaning it takes longer for them to add skills than a basic character after mustering out.

Again, it's not a "problem" unless you can't be arsed to understand the fucking rules.

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;940220I am in the awkward position of saying, "Yes" to everything you just typed, but "No" when you type this:

I would suggest that "ad-hoc" vs. "formalized" are, well, utterly different things, producing (and requiring) a completely different set of expectations and application of play.

It a style of refereeing, a referee can be just as detail obsessed and anal retentive about the rules with OD&D as he can with D&D 3.5e.

The reason you are making the distinction you are making is because for half of the hobby it been drilled into them the rules are everything.

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;940220The point for me is this difference between ad-hoc and formalized. And since the difference matters to me, a vital difference that has all sorts of implications, I can't see them as being the same basic idea at all.

So you are telling me that you can't run a campaign use GURPS with ad-hoc rulings based on contest of skill or attributes because the system has a supplements that details how to do a arm-lock in a hard rain on a oily surface?

Or that referees didn't have OD&D campaigns where they had a page full of tables and modifiers to handle wanton women?

QuoteI will say now that the distinction between these two types of play can often be subtle. But the different rules produce different kinds of play.

Look, I ran the Majestic Wilderlands with a dozen RPGs, and I am telling you, if the play is that different it on the referee not the rules. What the rules are to me is a tool. A tool that can describe things in more or less detail. But how that tools work when I am running a campaign is one me. With GURPS it possible to have characters where one is a master with a mace and the other with a broad sword. That not possible with OD&D as OD&D doesn't make that distinction. But in both campaigns, the character go on adventures and fight for the same reasons.

In GURPS a character is better at bribery because he has the bribery skill, in OD&D all I have is the Charisma stat to use as a reference. In both the players have to roleplay in a way that makes fucking sense in order make a roll to see how well they do.

Playing RPGs is not about playing the rules, it about running a campaign. The rules are just a tool used to make the campaign happened. If something doesn't work you think it stupid like not having bribery as a distinct skill over persuade then you fix it. But if you think you can't fix it because some guy at Mongoose say so, then that on you.

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;940220I'm talking about the move in emphasis from early RPG design that puts most of the weight of play onto the shoulders of the Players to the post-1980 design that shifts, more and more, the weight of play onto the character sheet.

And what I am saying is that the blame has always been on the player and referees. It a function of the way they choose to play. The reason that RPG design shifted in the 80s because that what people wanted. The only problem is that people forgot there were other ways of playing tabletop RPGs. A problem that been solved in the 2000s with the advent of the Internet making it easier to communicate about alternatives.

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;940220This is why the skill list for MgT is substantially longer than that found in CT, because we're going to keep checking that character sheet time and time again in MgT to get things done.

It because DGP and GDW were a bunch of wargamers and that how they felt you made a better game i.e. RPG.

Ester,

In your summations about rules, players, and Referees there isn't anything I disagree with. For what that's worth.

I simply see a difference in the rules. (Which I think we agree on.)

I think those differences can matter. (If not, why different rules?)

But I'm also going to guess there's not much further to go here.

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;940248Ester,

In your summations about rules, players, and Referees there isn't anything I disagree with. For what that's worth.

I simply see a difference in the rules. (Which I think we agree on.)

Yes, there is a difference. The question is whether the difference is big enough to make it two different kinds of icecream, or two different kinds of vanilla icecream:).

QuoteI think those differences can matter. (If not, why different rules?)

They can matter, yes. But the comparison should result in the statement that "those rules are very close" when comparing MgT and CT, unlike the case when we're comparing CT to either SWN (Stars Without Numbers) or Eclipse Phase.

QuoteBut I'm also going to guess there's not much further to go here.

I'd agree, FWIW;).

The MgT rules are an evolution of Classic Traveller (specifically - they skipped the other later editions in the original design brief) and have the same relationship one might expect when comparing D&D5 to OD&D. Are the rules different? Sure. Does that mean that someone with a large collection of Classic Traveller material can't make any use of them with the modern rules? No. The fundaments are the same (2D6 rolls, Characteristics & Skills) even if the applications are different. In all though, not something anyone needs to get hot under the collar about.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;940260The MgT rules are an evolution of Classic Traveller (specifically - they skipped the other later editions in the original design brief) and have the same relationship one might expect when comparing D&D5 to OD&D.

And those are two very different games from one another.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;940260Are the rules different? Sure. Does that mean that someone with a large collection of Classic Traveller material can't make any use of them with the modern rules? No.

I made use of Metamorphosis Alpha when I played 1e AD&D - did that make them "super-similar" games? I made use of En Garde! when I played Flashing Blades - does that make them "super-similar" games?

Quote from: TrippyHippy;940260The fundaments are the same (2D6 rolls, Characteristics & Skills) even if the applications are different.

And here's where we get to the heart of this ridiculous tangent: you can describe pretty much every roleplaying game as roll dice, add modifiers, yet the experience can be very different, as with a reaction table based on Charisma or some other personality attribute and a reaction table based on the character's actions in the setting (https://promisecity.blogspot.com/2016/12/reputation.html). It's not enough to say, 'well, they're both 2d6 tables with modifiers' - they resolve completely different approaches to playing the game.

'goose Traveller is not 'updated' or 'expanded' or 'modernized' or 'cleaned up' LBB Traveller - it proceeds from a different set of assumptions about how the game is played from the original.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;940304'goose Traveller is not 'updated' or 'expanded' or 'modernized' or 'cleaned up' LBB Traveller - it proceeds from a different set of assumptions about how the game is played from the original.

No it doesn't - I actually use classic Traveller stuff with Mongoose Traveller all the time, and have done since it's release. And yes, I have a pretty wide ranging collection of Classic Traveller, including the original box set and the CD-Rom (which pretty much accounts for everything in effect).

The game is played with 2D6, roll high based on six stats and skills. There is a bunch of little differences, but rather than focus on that I just use what is actually transferable - the most important thing being the stories that are written for it. And for a point of fact, when Garath Hanrahan was writing Mongoose Traveller, his sole source was Classic Traveller.

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;940248I think those differences can matter. (If not, why different rules?)

Quote from: Black Vulmea;940304And those are two very different games from one another...they resolve completely different approaches to playing the game...it proceeds from a different set of assumptions about how the game is played from the original.

You two are getting dangerously close to saying "System Matters", which we all know is CrazyTalk.

Crazy as in should be self-evident to anyone who isn't an Embodied Avatar of the Rule Zero Fallacy. :D

That there are differences is fact.
Whether that difference amounts to a distinction is relative.

Some people can paper over the Grand Canyon and call it good enough.

Quote from: CRKrueger;940308Whether that difference amounts to a distinction is relative.

Without doubt.
For me, the relative distance is great.
But the differences is either relatively large to someone... or it is not.
I would not expect anyone to go on my ride with me. The fact that I think the differences are significant are a reflection of the differences that interest me. And we'll all be interested in different things.

Well, I've seen it argued that the two are meant to answer a different question, but I'm not sure whether the difference changesanything in play.
According to the CT blog (https://talestoastound.wordpress.com/2017/01/06/traveller-out-of-the-box-an-approach-to-refereeing-and-throws-in-original-traveller-part-i/) I read, CT answers the question "is your solution going to work, given the situation, including character skills".
Anything from MT to MgT1e and T5, according to the same blog, is asking the question "is your character skilled enough to deal with the situation".

Is that the kind of things you are talking about?

I can see this resulting in more of an impact of situational factors, but frankly, I'm not sure it would.

IMO, the difference between CT and MgT1e or T5 is about the same as between OD&D and AD&D, though I might be missing something.

The correct version of Traveler has this on the cover:

This is Free Trader Beowulf, calling anyone...Mayday, Mayday...we are under attack...main drive is gone...turret number one not responding...Mayday...losing cabin pressure fast...calling anyone...please help...This is Free Trader Beowulf...Mayday....

soooo...GURPS Traveller for Groanan then :D

I started with The Traveller Book but I think saying CT is cheating.  Is that with or without supplements games and so forth.  You could quite easily be using advanced character creation from Books 4-7 (8 is robots and they don't quite work that way) Snap Shot for man to man combat, Striker for vehicle combat, and High Guard for ship to ship combat and still be playing Classic Traveller.

Megatraveller is awfully close to CT but has a unified task system, vehicle combat, and ties directly into the Third Imperium setting.  It's nice in that it brings a lot of material from supplements into a fairly tight core.  I don't really like the combat system but at least if I fire an assault rocket launcher at a g carrier I have some idea of what happens in game terms.

TNE should have been a new iteration of 2300 AD and left Traveller alone.  I liked it in some ways, hated it in others.  I don't mind the basic system but the armor and penetration rules don't really scale up or down all that well.  Fire, Fusion, and Steel is really neat and ambitious and I love it but its a mess of errors and errata that won't be bested until its second edition in T4.

T4 is a disaster but its my favorite version of Traveller.  Character creation is a nice mid way point between advanced an basic.  Characters get nice, fleshed out skill lists and can go to school and get a degree but the system doesn't get bogged down in details.  The task system works better than the T5 task system because it uses half dice.  T5 uses a muddy mix of modifiers and difficulty levels because whole dice are too big to represent everything.  T4 should have gone with points or dice of DR for armor and ditched the combat dice pools but on the whole the system is moving in the right direction and the book has the stuff in it that it should.  The art and editing are a mess but I do like Chris Foss and Larry Elmore's work.  It's certainly better than much of the TNE art.

Personally T5 is closest to what I want in terms of content, I like the design rules in the core because I hate supplement power creep and I want solid, nailed down standards and structures from the very beginning but sadly it's still barely functional.  In many ways 5.09 is a step down from 5.0.  That's not to say it can't be played, it's just you have to house rule things a lot and make some decisions on how things are applied.

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;940212Note: I'm not in any way to get into a pissing match on any of this. The original Traveller (Books 1-3) works great in my view, but it is a distinctly different beast in application and play than MgT. But because different people want different things it's awesome both games, offering different application and play, are available to different people.

I still write my apps in both CT and MgT versions because of this.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;940219That I don't think Pundejo knows his ass from a sticky knot-hole when it comes to black box or TTB-era Traveller.

Let's take bribery, frex. In 1e 'goose Traveller, ". . . to make a skill check, a character rolls 2d6 + his Skill Level + his Characteristic DM + any other DMs, and tries to get 8 or more ("Skills & Tasks," p. 48, emphasis in the original). 'goose Traveller doesn't include Bribery as a skill at all - it's folded into the Persuade skill, with no specific examples of offering a bribe as to attribute, difficulty or time ("Persuade," pp. 56-7). In The Traveller Book. Bribery is a skill with resolution based on the law level of the world on which the bribe is offered, skill or its absence, and the reaction roll of the non-player character who is the target of the bribe ("Bribery," p. 22) - as the skill description notes, this means that success varies with how authoritarian the state is, with corruption being most prevalent on worlds with the most stringent laws, which is an incredibly powerful statement on the nature of the implied setting.

Most of 'classic' Traveller's skills work similarly. There is no 'standard target number' until some ten years into its development, and it was introduced through JTAS by DGP, not a core book in the system. LBB skills often have their own discrete resolution systems, and attributes are rarely incorporated except on an ad hoc basis by the referee. The introduction of the DGP Universal Task Profile seriously devalued a number of LBB skills, such as Vacc Suit skill which offers a +4 modifier for each skill level in the LBBs but drops to +1 per level in DGP's system.

Can you FLAILSNAIL this shit together? Sure, but you could do the same thing with 1e AD&D and 2e Boot Hill - hell, it was right there in the DMG ("Sixguns & Sorcery." pp. 112-3). Calling these systems - and the many changes in the combat systems - "super-similar" is just fucking ignorant of the rules and the history behind them.


You wanna know why I'm such an impatient fucker all the time? It's shit like this.

Original, 'classic' Traveller caps the number of skills and skill levels at INT + EDU - frex, if you have INT 5 and EDU 8, you cannot have more than 13 total skills and levels, say Pilot-4, Streetwise-2, Gunnery-2, and Computer-1. The main difference between basic and advanced character generation, then, is that advanced characters are more likely to hit that maximum sooner than basic characters. This means advanced characters tend to leave the service sooner and start the game younger and get fewer mustering out benefits because they serve fewer terms. If you choose to keep your character in the service after hitting your skill max, then you are risking multiple survival rolls per term for nothing more than a chance at attribute bonuses - INT and EDU bonuses are the ones most worth chasing, if they're available - and an extra mustering out roll.

So this isn't a "problem" to anyone who understands what the fuck is going on. It's a gambling strategy, such as going to college or technical school to increase INT and EDU to raise your skill max while giving up a term worth of benefits and getting older.

You play Traveller as a wargame. Lots of players do to this day.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;940219That I don't think Pundejo knows his ass from a sticky knot-hole when it comes to black box or TTB-era Traveller.

Let's take bribery, frex. In 1e 'goose Traveller, ". . . to make a skill check, a character rolls 2d6 + his Skill Level + his Characteristic DM + any other DMs, and tries to get 8 or more ("Skills & Tasks," p. 48, emphasis in the original). 'goose Traveller doesn't include Bribery as a skill at all - it's folded into the Persuade skill, with no specific examples of offering a bribe as to attribute, difficulty or time ("Persuade," pp. 56-7). In The Traveller Book. Bribery is a skill with resolution based on the law level of the world on which the bribe is offered, skill or its absence, and the reaction roll of the non-player character who is the target of the bribe ("Bribery," p. 22) - as the skill description notes, this means that success varies with how authoritarian the state is, with corruption being most prevalent on worlds with the most stringent laws, which is an incredibly powerful statement on the nature of the implied setting.

Most of 'classic' Traveller's skills work similarly. There is no 'standard target number' until some ten years into its development, and it was introduced through JTAS by DGP, not a core book in the system. LBB skills often have their own discrete resolution systems, and attributes are rarely incorporated except on an ad hoc basis by the referee. The introduction of the DGP Universal Task Profile seriously devalued a number of LBB skills, such as Vacc Suit skill which offers a +4 modifier for each skill level in the LBBs but drops to +1 per level in DGP's system.

Can you FLAILSNAIL this shit together? Sure, but you could do the same thing with 1e AD&D and 2e Boot Hill - hell, it was right there in the DMG ("Sixguns & Sorcery." pp. 112-3). Calling these systems - and the many changes in the combat systems - "super-similar" is just fucking ignorant of the rules and the history behind them.


You wanna know why I'm such an impatient fucker all the time? It's shit like this.

Original, 'classic' Traveller caps the number of skills and skill levels at INT + EDU - frex, if you have INT 5 and EDU 8, you cannot have more than 13 total skills and levels, say Pilot-4, Streetwise-2, Gunnery-2, and Computer-1. The main difference between basic and advanced character generation, then, is that advanced characters are more likely to hit that maximum sooner than basic characters. This means advanced characters tend to leave the service sooner and start the game younger and get fewer mustering out benefits because they serve fewer terms. If you choose to keep your character in the service after hitting your skill max, then you are risking multiple survival rolls per term for nothing more than a chance at attribute bonuses - INT and EDU bonuses are the ones most worth chasing, if they're available - and an extra mustering out roll.

So this isn't a "problem" to anyone who understands what the fuck is going on. It's a gambling strategy, such as going to college or technical school to increase INT and EDU to raise your skill max while giving up a term worth of benefits and getting older.

You play Traveller as a wargame. Lots of players do to this day.

Quote from: David Johansen;940339I started with The Traveller Book but I think saying CT is cheating.  Is that with or without supplements games and so forth.  You could quite easily be using advanced character creation from Books 4-7 (8 is robots and they don't quite work that way) Snap Shot for man to man combat, Striker for vehicle combat, and High Guard for ship to ship combat and still be playing Classic Traveller.

Kinda agree. Much like D&D, some of the biggest changes in what the game is like occur within the original edition.

QuotePersonally T5 is closest to what I want in terms of content, I like the design rules in the core because I hate supplement power creep and I want solid, nailed down standards and structures from the very beginning but sadly it's still barely functional.  In many ways 5.09 is a step down from 5.0.  That's not to say it can't be played, it's just you have to house rule things a lot and make some decisions on how things are applied.

T5 I find a lot like GURPS - it is a huge toolbox, perhaps too big to use all of it at once (except perhaps for the challenge of doing so), but then I've never heard of anyone trying to use the whole thing all at once.

Quote from: David Johansen;940339soooo...GURPS Traveller for Groanan then :D

Word;)!

QuoteMegatraveller is awfully close to CT but has a unified task system, vehicle combat, and ties directly into the Third Imperium setting.

So, exactly like any other version of Traveller since then:D?

QuoteT4 is a disaster but its my favorite version of Traveller.  Character creation is a nice mid way point between advanced an basic.  Characters get nice, fleshed out skill lists and can go to school and get a degree but the system doesn't get bogged down in details.  The task system works better than the T5 task system because it uses half dice.  T5 uses a muddy mix of modifiers and difficulty levels because whole dice are too big to represent everything.  T4 should have gone with points or dice of DR for armor and ditched the combat dice pools but on the whole the system is moving in the right direction and the book has the stuff in it that it should.  The art and editing are a mess but I do like Chris Foss and Larry Elmore's work.  It's certainly better than much of the TNE art.

OK, what makes it "a disaster", then?
That's a practical question, I've been eyeing the different editions that I don't have on the FFE site for a while now, and suspect it's going to end in a purchase of the "special option". T4 is almost definitely going to be one of the four CDs in this case:p.

QuotePersonally T5 is closest to what I want in terms of content, I like the design rules in the core because I hate supplement power creep and I want solid, nailed down standards and structures from the very beginning but sadly it's still barely functional.  In many ways 5.09 is a step down from 5.0.  That's not to say it can't be played, it's just you have to house rule things a lot and make some decisions on how things are applied.

I'm halfway through rewriting it with a different core system, just because I like the same things that you do;).

Gonna weigh in on this before going to bed. Both Black Vulmea and estar are right.

Each version of Traveller plays differently than the next because they are similar but different rule sets, a skill in Classic Traveller will not work the same as one in Mongoose Traveller because while the skills may be word-for-word the same the task resolution system is different. Each version of Traveller is compatible with the other versions because most of the formats used to describe things are the same, like the Universal Planetary Profile is the same in most versions of Traveller so a subsector generated with Classic Traveller can be used in any other version.

T4 is an organizational and editing disaster.  It was an ambitious project but the quality of the supplements is sporadic and the first printing of Milieu Zero had all the UPPs screwed up.

Rules wise, people hated the half dice increments in the task system and hated the nd6 task system.  One complaint I have against nd6 is that it often sets can't fail difficulties which I'm not fond of in combat.  The other is the tendency designers have to mix modifiers and difficulty levels.   This is exacerbated when you take away the half dice increments.

If character creation has a flaw it's that with 4 - 6 skills per term it's pretty easy to get ahead of aging using the Personal Development Table.

The damage system subtracts whole dice from damage ratings which means it's very absolute.  You either can or can't damage a target. A problem T4 shares with Megatraveller.  There are those who will try to defend it but even with the -6 (and shouldn't that just be two steps of difficulty?) for half armor there's the caveat that it only works against unsealed and partial armor.  An easy fix is to roll a number of dice equal to the armor rating.The damage pool is basically the same as the strong and weakened swings from classic Traveller's Book 1 combat chapter.  The tactics pool is similar to tactics pools that appear in later versions.  I think there was another pool, but I can't remember what it did.

Starships are okay in the main book but Supplement One: Starships is a mess.  One thing I liked about starships is that they have a small batch of hit points in addition to the critical hit results.  I think the table was the same as the one from Battle Rider but I'm not sure.  Milieu Zero is a pretty dry setting though I like the way they give out two sets of UPPs and only the Referee has the social data on each world.  I'm sure some people had absolute fits when Marc called Fusion Plus a form of Cold Fusion.

There were plenty of graphic and editing failures and the line really struggled with product quality.  Central Supply catalog was great, Psionic Institutes was pretty good.  Fire Fusion and Steel was great if you could bear wrestling with the 14 pages of errata.  Emperor's Arsenal was good.  Emperor's Vehicles wasn't fit to use as toilet paper.  Emperor's Star Fleets was, well, it was Fifth Frontier war without the Fifth Frontier War.  It was weird, really the last few supplements were weird.  You had Fire, Fusion, and Steel and then you had Emperor's Vehicles that was really abstract and almost the predecessor to T5's Vehicle Maker.

As you may recall I got a decent way in on a Traveller rewrite myself.  In the end I decided it made more sense to work on my own games because I own them.  There's too many things I don't love about Traveller anyhow.  I don't mind UPPs and UPPs but when it starts being USPs and UWPS and QUERBS and URPS and so forth I get tired.

For folks here who have the classic Traveller book from drivethru- how's the print quality on it?  Looks like it's a scan of the original books.  Sometimes those seem off when printed.

Quote from: David Johansen;940339I started with The Traveller Book but I think saying CT is cheating.  Is that with or without supplements games and so forth.  You could quite easily be using advanced character creation from Books 4-7 (8 is robots and they don't quite work that way) Snap Shot for man to man combat, Striker for vehicle combat, and High Guard for ship to ship combat and still be playing Classic Traveller.

This is a good point. In most of my posts on this thread I referred to "original Traveller (Books 1-3)." Because that's all I need to play Traveller. I find the later Books not particularly helpful. (I also use use Supplements 1, 2, and 4... but tend to stick to the careers found in Book 1. They give me the pulp adventure feel I'm looking for in a solid RPG game of adventure.)

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;940371You play Traveller as a wargame. Lots of players do to this day.

I find the need to own the definition of "roleplaying game" charming. But I still don't understand the need.

Quote from: RunningLaser;940395For folks here who have the classic Traveller book from drivethru- how's the print quality on it?  Looks like it's a scan of the original books.  Sometimes those seem off when printed.

I assume, but am not sure, that the PDFs on DriveThru are the same found on the CD-ROMs one can buy from Far Future Enterprises. (I assume it because why would they not be?) If so, I have found them to be good enough when printed. But that might not meet your needs.

Quote from: RunningLaser;940395For folks here who have the classic Traveller book from drivethru- how's the print quality on it?  Looks like it's a scan of the original books.  Sometimes those seem off when printed.

If you're talking about the POD version of The Traveller Book, it wasn't bad. Image quality of the art, and the paper and binding of the POD version wasn't as good as the original. I did a side-by-side photo comparison (a year ago?), and there were noticeable differences. But not bad overall.

Quote from: RunningLaser;940395For folks here who have the classic Traveller book from drivethru- how's the print quality on it?  Looks like it's a scan of the original books.  Sometimes those seem off when printed.

The illustrations are darker but otherwise fine.

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;940416I assume, but am not sure, that the PDFs on DriveThru are the same found on the CD-ROMs one can buy from Far Future Enterprises. (I assume it because why would they not be?) If so, I have found them to be good enough when printed. But that might not meet your needs.

Buy the CD-ROMs from FFE because the pricing is way better for what you get.

Quote from: ChristopherKubasik;940248Ester,

In your summations about rules, players, and Referees there isn't anything I disagree with. For what that's worth.

I simply see a difference in the rules. (Which I think we agree on.)

I think those differences can matter. (If not, why different rules?)

But I'm also going to guess there's not much further to go here.

You pick one or the other. But as somebody else pointed out the format of a lot of things are same so you grab what useful out of the other editions and use it with the rules you like.

I should have added the link to the FFE CD-ROMs (http://www.farfuture.net/FFE-CDROMs.html).

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;940371You play Traveller as a wargame. Lots of players do to this day.

I never cease to be impressed by how you manage to be both a dick and a cunt at the same time.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;940305The game is played with 2D6, roll high based on six stats and skills. There is a bunch of little differences, but rather than focus on that I just use what is actually transferable - the most important thing being the stories that are written for it.

The fact that you can take two different games and mash them up, as I've noted repeatedly and you seem intent on ignoring, doesn't change the fact that they are different games. That iterations of Traveller share similar trappings - free traders, battledress, mercenaries, jump space, &c - and can be adapted to one another doesn't change the fact that what's under the hood isn't the same and makes a difference in how the game plays at the table.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;940429That iterations of Traveller share similar trappings ... and can be adapted to one another doesn't change the fact that what's under the hood isn't the same and makes a difference in how the game plays at the table.

In your opinion, is there a preferred choice if you are making your own milieu? I'm putting together my own, new, game as well and am not interested in the canon Third Empire.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;940424I never cease to be impressed by how you manage to be both a dick and a cunt at the same time.

Well, it means when you tell him to go fuck himself, he can easily do so.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;940441Well, it means when you tell him to go fuck himself, he can easily do so.

Black Vulmea is just upset because he royally sucks at the hobby.

Quote from: estar;940421Buy the CD-ROMs from FFE because the pricing is way better for what you get.

Yes. They are a deal if you want complete sets of rules.

Quote from: K Peterson;940418If you're talking about the POD version of The Traveller Book, it wasn't bad. Image quality of the art, and the paper and binding of the POD version wasn't as good as the original. I did a side-by-side photo comparison (a year ago?), and there were noticeable differences. But not bad overall.

Quote from: estar;940420The illustrations are darker but otherwise fine.

Very cool, thanks.

Quote from: Baron Opal;940438In your opinion, is there a preferred choice if you are making your own milieu?

Any edition can be used as a toolkit with a little sandpaper and elbow grease, but Traveller has a strong implied setting which is part of its identity.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;940444Black Vulmea is just upset because he royally sucks at the hobby.

I suck at roleplaying games and you are a dick-cunt.

The difference is, I can get better.

Quote from: RunningLaser;940395For folks here who have the classic Traveller book from drivethru- how's the print quality on it?  Looks like it's a scan of the original books.  Sometimes those seem off when printed.

Mine just came in and it looks really good. The only concern I have is that the covers are about a quarter inch wider than the interior paper and I wonder how that will affect cover wear over time.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;940444Black Vulmea is just upset because he royally sucks at the hobby.

You of all people, have no footing to judge from on this.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;940444Black Vulmea is just upset because he royally sucks at the hobby.

Shit, you are definitely the wrong person to make that judgment.

The mind can only marvel, devoid of comprehension, at the fact that someone does not have Shawn Driscoll on ignore. The man (?) is essentially a Brian Gleichman clone, only deprived of any redeeming qualities.

Quote from: The Butcher;940462The man (?) is essentially a Brian Gleichman clone, only deprived of any redeeming qualities.

Driscoll looks like a man in his YouTube videos. His videos are as drab and uninteresting, as his one-sentence garbage posts here.

Quote from: Baron Opal;940438In your opinion, is there a preferred choice if you are making your own milieu? I'm putting together my own, new, game as well and am not interested in the canon Third Empire.

Half of my Classic Traveller campaigns haven't been in the Imperium. I haven't found any problems with altering CT to achieve my own setting goals. The only bit is needing different configurations of Scout Ships and Far Traders. Those Trav ships have a known look for many players so when doing your own setting, either find a reason for those classic ships to exist, or troll the web for a cool variant that works for you.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;940371You play Traveller as a wargame. Lots of players do to this day.

What do you mean by "play Traveller as a wargame"?

Quote from: Black Vulmea;940304'goose Traveller is not 'updated' or 'expanded' or 'modernized' or 'cleaned up' LBB Traveller - it proceeds from a different set of assumptions about how the game is played from the original.

What "different set of assumptions" do you feel were used by the Goose?  

Quote from: CRKrueger;940308You two are getting dangerously close to saying "System Matters", which we all know is CrazyTalk.

Crazy as in should be self-evident to anyone who isn't an Embodied Avatar of the Rule Zero Fallacy. :D

How is Rule Zero a fallacy?

Just asking for an Embodied Avatar friend of mine.

Quote from: Spinachcat;940484Half of my Classic Traveller campaigns haven't been in the Imperium. I haven't found any problems with altering CT to achieve my own setting goals. The only bit is needing different configurations of Scout Ships and Far Traders. Those Trav ships have a known look for many players so when doing your own setting, either find a reason for those classic ships to exist, or troll the web for a cool variant that works for you.




What do you mean by "play Traveller as a wargame"?




What "different set of assumptions" do you feel were used by the Goose?  




How is Rule Zero a fallacy?

Just asking for an Embodied Avatar friend of mine.

Rule Zero isn't a fallacy.  The "Rule Zero Fallacy" is that any criticism of game rules is pointless because the rules can be changed.

An example would be saying your dismissal of 2d20 as "narrative nonsense" is stupid because you could make it non-narrative.  It's a bullshit way to shut down any discussion of rules and mechanics.

Quote from: K Peterson;940466Driscoll looks like a man in his YouTube videos. His videos are as drab and uninteresting, as his one-sentence garbage posts here.

You're just another grognard whose crap role-play still runs off of fumes of nostalgia.

Would you guys mind getting a room and working out your unfulfilled sexual tension so the rest of us can talk about Traveller maybe?

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;940557You're just another grognard whose crap role-play still runs off of fumes of nostalgia.

Hey, more one-sentence-garbage.

Eh, you don't know shit about my gaming, Driscoll. You're just another shitweasel gamer who thinks he knows what is the true way to play roleplaying games, and spews his moronic shit across threads.

Quote from: David Johansen;940564Would you guys mind getting a room and working out your unfulfilled sexual tension so the rest of us can talk about Traveller maybe?

Wouldn't that be nice? But I think everyone's having a catharsis moment.

Quote from: Spinachcat;940484What "different set of assumptions" do you feel were used by the Goose?

The pre-eminence of attributes over skill is the most significant for me. Bonuses to skill throws are mostly ad hoc in Traveller, whereas they can be disproportionately more influential than actual skill in 'goose Trav'.

Quote from: David Johansen;940564Would you guys mind getting a room and working out your unfulfilled sexual tension so the rest of us can talk about Traveller maybe?

Piss the fuck off, you supercilious ass.

Quote from: Spinachcat;940484What "different set of assumptions" do you feel were used by the Goose?

The pre-eminence of attributes over skill is the most significant for me. Bonuses to skill throws are mostly ad hoc in Traveller, whereas they can be disproportionately more influential than actual skill in 'goose Trav'.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;940594Piss the fuck off, you supercilious ass.

Got a new word a day calendar for Christmas I see.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;940594The pre-eminence of attributes over skill is the most significant for me. Bonuses to skill throws are mostly ad hoc in Traveller, whereas they can be disproportionately more influential than actual skill in 'goose Trav'.

They aren't pre-eminent - they are balanced and standardised, is all. A +1/-1 or occasional +2/-2, or even rarer +3/-3 modifier is not pre-eminent over a skill range that generally ranks from 0-5, with a -3 penalty for not having a skill. Statistically most PCs only have a few Characteristic DMs at the +1/-1 range (12+ is a +2DM) but focussed skills can frequently go to 3+.

They didn't standardise the Characteristic DMs in Classic Traveller (although they did in MegaTraveller) but nothing was standardised in Classic Traveller anyway. They didn't regulate a core task system in Classic Traveller - it was all pretty formative stuff, with advice given for individual skills (notably, no other game had a skill based system before Traveller, so it was quite an innovation).

However, in certain Classic Traveller systems, like combat, the Characteristic scores had a greater influence than they do in MgT through particular stipulations. The Strength score, for example, determined the weapons you could use without penalty and gave bonuses if your score was above a particular advantage threshold. A Strength of 8, for example would give you a +2 to hit with a club, for example, but had a -4 to hit if Strength was below 5. Dexterity would influence different firearms, and Endurance would limit the amount of blows you could make in combat (an Endurance of 6 meant you'd get 6 swings before you'd fatigue). The Characteristic scores, as such, had a much greater influence than the current Mongoose version of Traveller, in combat. In MgT, skills like Leadership and Tactics influence the outcome more than characteristic bonuses.  

There was an argument made in the original MgT playtest, which I supported, that the Characteristics should be used in direct comparison to the Difficulty rating of the task and provide bonuses based on this comparison (-1 if lower, +1 if higher, +2 if double etc), but it was deemed to be distracting in play. They chose to apply fixed DMs, a la D&D, and seeing as it's gone through two editions now, there doesn't seem to be many complaining. The boon/bane dice I'm a bit meh about, but it's pretty much an optional thing in play so it's pretty superfluous.

Feel free to call me a cunt for pointing this out, by the way, which seems to be the level of discourse you seem most comfortable with.

Quote from: TrippyHippy;940640They didn't standardise the Characteristic DMs in Classic Traveller (although they did in MegaTraveller) but nothing was standardised in Classic Traveller anyway. They didn't regulate a core task system in Classic Traveller - it was all pretty formative stuff, with advice given for individual skills (notably, no other game had a skill based system before Traveller, so it was quite an innovation).

I wouldn't call it formative, this was a group of experienced wargame designer. What Marc Miller did is treat each areas as separate mini-games and design it in the way that made sense to him. This is was consistent with how wargame were done with each major topic (combat resolution, morale, etc) having the mechanics that the designer thought worked the best for that.

It was Digest Group who came up with the idea of a Universal Task mechanic and applied to everything they presented in the Traveller's Digest.

There is case to be made for both and it basically boils down to personal preference. I personally like Mongoose Traveller approach as trend back in the 80s was more comphrensive mechanics. The game got more detailed and more complicated over time. In contrast for me the the core rules of MgT 1e feels like Traveller returned back to the basics. I adopted MgT 1e because Classic Traveller went through several phases that are sort of compatible with each other. MgT 1e covered all what Classic Traveller did but in a  way that it is consistent. It wasn't earth shatteringly better but enough to convince me to adopt it. But I would have no problems running a campaign with the Classic Traveller rules either.

Once again, I think all of you are both right and wrong. Black Vulmea is correct in saying that the characteristic mods have an effect on task resolution and TrippyHippy is correct in saying that they have been balanced and standardized. In Classic Traveller, each skill was treated as a separate unit like estar says and most did not have a characteristic as a modifier but had skill and situational modifiers, you added this string of modifiers up and connected that to an 8+ roll on 2D to find the target number. Mongoose Traveller 1e does something similarbut includes ability score modifiers and also tends to raise the target difficulty number as well, so you are combining two separate strings of mods, one for the roll and one for the target difficulty number. Essentially the same process, but different numbers are the outcome with the averages in MgT1e being slightly high than in CT.

I also agree with estar in that I prefer a unified task resolution mechanic  in MgT1e to a bunch of smaller separate task resolution mechanics as in CT. It is not a big change, but the game does run smoother for it.

Quote from: CRKrueger;939775Ok, so some homework for Jeff and Rob:

List every Original Traveller module that Mongoose has reprinted and tell us which one to get for each.
Thanks in advance. :D

OK, here goes.

Beltstrike - get the CT version, the MgT1e version updates much to that version but forgets some needed tables on asteroid mining

Prison Planet - get the MgT1e version, the CT version is very brief and the MgT1e version has page after page of NPCs that can be used elsewhere with ease

Trillion Credit Squadron - get the CT version because it is concise and clear, the MgT1e version has a large chunk of filler which is weird starship designs and barely legible deckplans balanced out by important ship's equipment such as underway replenishment gear

Secrets of the Ancients, Aramis: The Traveller Adventure - I've already gone over both of these

Traders and Gunboats, Fighting Ships - get the CT versions, the MgT1e versions have a bunch of designs and deckplans but both are goofy looking and defy logic in many cases (as an aside, if you pick up a Mongoose Traveller starship book check the inside for illustrations, if Ian Stead's name is not there then do not waste your money on it)

Central Supply Catalog - buy the MgT1e book, the T4 version is good too but this one has all of those technical toys and weapons that your players crave

3I - Alien Module 1: Aslan, Alien Module 2: Vargr - these are good in both CT and MgT1e, mainly because Dom McKinney was involved in quality control of both although Mongoose still continues its practice of crappy starship art and deckplans

The Spinward Marches - buy the MgT1e version, this is Martin Dougherty's corrected work and while it does not go in to detail on every world it does concentrate on 2-4 in each subsector and give a solid overview of each subsector

sp87 - Death Station, sp93 - Annic Nova - these are just near word-for-word copies of the original adventures updated to the MgT1e rules

I hope that helps.

Dude, this was one of the earliest RPGs I owned:

(https://cf.geekdo-images.com/images/pic523941.jpg)

Plus a few of the other little booklets.
I played old-school traveller quite a bit, several games in my teenage years.

If you want to nitpick minutiae, fine. They're still pretty much the same game. The differences between old-school Traveller and Mongoose Traveller are not even as vast as the differences between 1e AD&D and 3e D&D. They're closer to the differences between 1e and 2e AD&D.


Wish I still had that set and all the extra booklets in it, though. Not sure what became of it. My brother probably sold it for pot money or something.

Quote from: RPGPundit;941459Wish I still had that set and all the extra booklets in it, though. Not sure what became of it. My brother probably sold it for pot money or something.

Everyone in our group had different printings of the game. Thank the Gods there were no rules lawyers in the group.