Quote from: trechriron;938576Let's set the scene: You're GMing a relaxing regular weekly game, everything is swell, people are having fun. The characters finally corner the Lt. BadGuyMiniBigBad in some gods-forsaken corner of the dungeon. The epic battle ensues with melee strikes, kung-fu shenanigans and flying spells. All the clues point to one solution - the heroes MUST toss the scepter into the fires in the deep chasm or BIGBAD will be too powerful to defeat. It is also known in some circles that "he who holds the scepter serves the dark one and channels his powers". Of course. The PCs are convinced this is the source of power for Lt. SadFaceSoggyPants so they can eliminate one Lt. AND have a chance of defeating THE DARK ONE. One of the PCs inches closer to the dais...

... and then picks up the scepter and pledges allegiance to the dark one!

What do you do?

I ran a campaign of that.  PCs were standard do gooders.  They went I to a demonic lair and the party leader heard the tempting whisperings of Tharizdun.  He decided to follow the big T.  Talked the rest of the party into switching allegiances.

The party then spent the next year of gaming trying to collect the Theorparts to release Tharizdun (see Gord novels).  It was an infamous campaign full of vileness and evil.  

After a year or however of running it, I noticed that playing out all the wretched scenes was getting to me in real life.  One session where they sacrificed a village worth of children particularly bothered me.  So the campaign had to be killed off.  The next session would be the last.

I started the session off explaining that the gruesomeness was not how I wanted to spend every other Sunday and that their Scarlet Brotherhood enemies (they were searching for a Theorpart there) had sent a vast army to destroy them (army statted out).  Something like ten straight hours of the PCs battling the army was an awesome ending.  They almost pulled it off (2e PCs in teen levels are tough).  Twenty years later, they still brag about how well they fought that hopeless TPK battle.  

Overall, easily in the top five most memorable campaigns.  Lots of campaigns where the PCs simply vanquished the evil have left by since been forgotten.

So, I say let the PC grab the scepter, pledge their allegiance, and play out the game to see where it goes.

Quote from: trechriron;938601Stop fire-walling your creative heart! Just tell me what you would do!!??!! Fill in the details as you desire.

As a player what would I do in that situation?

No matter out of the blue or not the minute the PC did this and my round came around theyd have my Warlocks shield stuck in their ribs. Id be either setting up or taking advantage of flanking. But If I think I can line it up then I would try to ram them into that pit of destruction instead.

Quote from: trechriron;938576Let's set the scene: You're GMing a relaxing regular weekly game, everything is swell, people are having fun. The characters finally corner the Lt. BadGuyMiniBigBad in some gods-forsaken corner of the dungeon. The epic battle ensues with melee strikes, kung-fu shenanigans and flying spells. All the clues point to one solution - the heroes MUST toss the scepter into the fires in the deep chasm or BIGBAD will be too powerful to defeat. It is also known in some circles that "he who holds the scepter serves the dark one and channels his powers". Of course. The PCs are convinced this is the source of power for Lt. SadFaceSoggyPants so they can eliminate one Lt. AND have a chance of defeating THE DARK ONE. One of the PCs inches closer to the dais...

... and then picks up the scepter and pledges allegiance to the dark one!

What do you do?

Pinch myself to try and wake from this  twisted fever dream of running D and D!

...

...

I'll get my coat.


Don't worry, I'll show myself out.

Quote from: trechriron;938576What do you do?

Leap up and do the Happy Dance!!

First, I would roleplay the Voice of Darkness in the PC's head, asking him what is he willing to do for my favor? It is not enough to grab the scepter, you must prove you are worthy of it's power.

Then, I would turn to the other players and throw down some fear / confusion checks, and ask for actions.

Quote from: trechriron;938576... and then picks up the scepter and pledges allegiance to the dark one!

What do you do?

Fuck knows. I don't get players with enough balls to do that. But anyway, I don't do anything as the DM, I just wait to see what the players do and react to it.

Try my hardest to fight the urge to cackle gleefully.  I usually manage to finish out the session and make my way home before bursting into maniacal laughter when my players screw themselves without realizing it, but I'm not sure whether I'd be able to keep it together in this situation.

Aside from that, though, it's up to the players how they want to react.  I'm certainly not going to tell them how to respond, although I'd be hoping for at least a moment of stunned silence to give me a chance to start drumming up ideas for what the Dark Lord might want the PC to do in his name and how to motivate him to do that.

Quote from: trechriron;938576Let's set the scene: You're GMing a relaxing regular weekly game, everything is swell, people are having fun. The characters finally corner the Lt. BadGuyMiniBigBad in some gods-forsaken corner of the dungeon. The epic battle ensues with melee strikes, kung-fu shenanigans and flying spells. All the clues point to one solution - the heroes MUST toss the scepter into the fires in the deep chasm or BIGBAD will be too powerful to defeat. It is also known in some circles that "he who holds the scepter serves the dark one and channels his powers". Of course. The PCs are convinced this is the source of power for Lt. SadFaceSoggyPants so they can eliminate one Lt. AND have a chance of defeating THE DARK ONE. One of the PCs inches closer to the dais...

... and then picks up the scepter and pledges allegiance to the dark one!

What do you do?

Without the attempt at being cute...

Hopefully the pre game discussion and previous role play had given me at least an inkling this was possible so I'd have something in mind but as the example hinges on that not being the case...

If the action seems appropriately in character, try to go with it according to what the abilities of the scepter are and what feels like the best option at the time such as having the dark god issue its demands to the character in return for the power it offers. Let the PCs roleplay it out how they wish. If the character does go through with their face heel turn they'll probably become an NPC (I burned out on "evil" games awhile ago and they're likely not compatible with the rest of the group anymore). But its certainly an exciting and interesting turn of events.

If the action seems to have more OOC motivations or be completely out of character, pause the action and talk with the player to try and understand what prompted it and if the issue can be resolved up too and including a retcon if required.

I’m going to need to translate this into terms I can work with.

Quote from: trechriron;938576You're GMing a relaxing regular weekly game, everything is swell, people are having fun.

So they game is running weekly, and I’m inferring that we’re not wrapping it up yet. We’re fighting mini-bosses and working our way up that level chart.

Quote from: trechriron;938576The characters finally corner the Mid boss in some gods-forsaken corner of the dungeon. Epic battle ensues.
All the clues point to one solution - the heroes MUST toss the scepter into the fires in the deep chasm or the (???Mid???) Boss will be too powerful to defeat.

Who’s going to be too powerful? Is it:
1) The guy they’re fighting? Seems like I fucked up, making him unbeatable except by plot contrivance
2) The last boss of the game? Again, I probably fucked up linking his defeat to a macguffin (well a plot device, but yeah)

This shit doesn’t come up in games I run. If the bad guy has an artifact, that’s considered part of the challenge of beating him. How you beat him is still up to you, as a player.

Quote from: trechriron;938576It is also known in some circles that "he who holds the scepter serves the dark one and channels his powers".
The PCs are convinced this is the source of power for the Mid boss so they can eliminate him and have a chance of defeating the Final Boss.

So is it like, if one of the ringwraiths had the one ring, and you basically HAD to toss it into mount doom to beat either him or Sauron?

Kinda seems like I fucked up if that’s the campaign structure. That’s a systemic fucking problem with the way I structured the adventure.

Quote from: trechriron;938576One of the PCs inches closer to the dais...
... and then picks up the scepter and pledges allegiance to the dark one!

Let me tell you the story of the first dungeon in my campaign. There was an evil sorcerer with an evil crown that let him control the undead. There was also an evil sword that killed a dragon and turns you into a psychotic killing machine if you tap into its power. Further, if you die while wielding it, you become the “boss” of the dungeon (a ringwraith, basically).

You know who’s wearing both of those magic items right now? My wife’s Lawful Elf character.

If you, as the person making the scenario, go into it with this “There is a right and proper solution and everything else is chaos” kind of attitude, you’re fucking up. If you stat that fucking scepter (and you should, since you’re making your players fight the guy who has it) then it DOES whatever it DOES when they steal it.

Does it change their alignment? Or drive them crazy? Maybe NOTHING?

Whatever, doesn’t matter; regard them picking up the scepter of unmitigated evil without any knowledge of the consequences the same way you would regard them opening a trapped door without investigating it. They get the consequences and benefits of their actions, simple as that.

…. Wait, what was the question again?

... Thank the merciful stars that the topic title was not the start of some appaling slash fic trend on this site?

But honestly, "rock falls, everyone dies," because it hasn't been used here as a response for months on end... and well, who doesn't love the classics?
:cool:

Well, it's unlikely I have that set-up at all in an ongoing campaign, particularly the sceptre bit. People might assume that from fiction tropes, but that's unlikely to be true in a campaign I set up. If it's such a great item, why isn't Lt. Cliche using it? Probably because the rumor isn't accurate, and Lt Cliche knows not to use it, and has something better to use in the fight. (Interrogating Lt. Cliche could be a very good idea.) So the PC doing that may just be a fool exposing themselves as an untrustworthy fool to the other PCs. In any case, it's unlikely I gave that sceptre the power to make someone invulnerable, so the other PC's may want to take out their former friend, depending. When PCs have good reasons to attack each other, I let them. But it could be all sorts of things, and trying that could get them more information about what's actually going on. It could be the PC is trying to gain that sort of information, or bluff/fool Lt Cliche into thinking the rumors ARE true, so they can take him out without a fight.

In any case, I would have defined in advance what the sceptre actually does (not to include making anyone invulnerable), what Lt Cliche knows and is thinking, including behavior that makes sense regarding the sceptre, such as if it is the best thing for a minion of Dr. DoomCliche to use, he would probably be using it, not leaving it sitting around for PCs to pick up. Then I would game out the results of actions and rolls using the rules and roleplaying the NPCs appropriately.

If it really was true that the item gave great powers to whoever held it and pledged allegiance to Dr. DoomCliche, and a PC did so (and the PC was capable of doing so - not just the player thinking it's cool to ignore the character description to do something unexpected), then I'd naturally give the PC those powers as long as they were loyal (though how possible it is to be loyal to someone you haven't even met might be an issue). The other PCs and NPCs would have to all decide what to do about this. PCs not wanting to shift allegiance would probably try to do something about it unless they thought it was a ruse, likely leading to some PvP mayhem, which would seem appropriate. If all the PCs actually decide to follow suit, then if it's in-character, I guess we now have a "minions of Dr. DoomCliche" campaign, though Lt. Cliche might be jealous or suspicious and continue the fight or backstab them later. They would probably get to learn a lot about the DoomCliche club and some of them might change their minds when they learn more details, leading to various paranoia/betrayal/loyalty-test nastiness. Generally I don't really want to run evil club PC parties but it would depend on the specifics.

Play it out.  What would probably happen in my group:
EvilPlayer grabs the scepter in a mad bid to become the new Lt. BBEG...
Some of the party would try to convince EvilPlayer to stop, etc...
Some of the party would, without hesitation, focus-fire on EvilPlayer.
Some of the party would attempt to neutralize all hostile characters so that this can be dealt with rationally.

The short-term result of this could be a TPK.
The long-term result of this could be Case:Nightmare Green*

Either way, we play it out.  Sometimes the world ends in fire, sometimes in ice.

*Edit:for those not familiar with The Laundry Files, that's When The Stars Come Right, a Supernatural Extinction Level Event.

Quote from: trechriron;938576Let's set the scene: You're GMing a relaxing regular weekly game, everything is swell, people are having fun. The characters finally corner the Lt. BadGuyMiniBigBad in some gods-forsaken corner of the dungeon. The epic battle ensues with melee strikes, kung-fu shenanigans and flying spells. All the clues point to one solution - the heroes MUST toss the scepter into the fires in the deep chasm or BIGBAD will be too powerful to defeat. It is also known in some circles that "he who holds the scepter serves the dark one and channels his powers". Of course. The PCs are convinced this is the source of power for Lt. SadFaceSoggyPants so they can eliminate one Lt. AND have a chance of defeating THE DARK ONE. One of the PCs inches closer to the dais...

... and then picks up the scepter and pledges allegiance to the dark one!

What do you do?

Sit back and wait for the other players to react, then watch the carnage unfold. If anyone survives then I have a mini-campaign just ready to be played.

Quote from: Nexus;938630Pinch myself to try and wake from this  twisted fever dream of running D and D!

That situation would work perfectly well with RuneQuest or, probably, any game. Nothing D&Dish there.

Robilar freed the demon Zuggtomy from Greyhawk Castle.

The game went on.

Of course, as I've said more times before than I can count, we didn't play "ONE BAND OF HEROES TRIED AND TRUE WELDED TOGETHER AT THE HIP."

Also, I don't have "bosses" and "mini bosses" and "lieutenant bosses."  I have NPCs who are pursing their agendas, and how the players interact with them is up to the players.

The world has been running for centuries and will continue to run for centuries.  Sorhed's Dark Carbuncle of Doom has NOT come to a head, and the PCs do not need to soundly lance it ere Sorhed starts his own loathsome squeeze play.

Ok.  Three things.  First a lot of people seem to be reacting to stuff you havent said but they think you are saying.  

2.  I think its time for a one on one role play in the other room.  Do people still do that?

3.  And this is related to a lot of other stuff.  You can either have a manipultive DM who changes details baised on whim or desire for story, or to fit the setting/make things cooler, or forgetfullness.  Or you can have manipulative NPCs who trick the players.  You cant have both.  

So if on a whim you decided to add a Muggifin.  And told them what it did.  It has to do that.  But if the muggifin has been there all along, than it possible tricksy ringwraiths have circulated miss information.  (But dont make your NPCs omniscient)