Let's set the scene: You're GMing a relaxing regular weekly game, everything is swell, people are having fun. The characters finally corner the Lt. BadGuyMiniBigBad in some gods-forsaken corner of the dungeon. The epic battle ensues with melee strikes, kung-fu shenanigans and flying spells. All the clues point to one solution - the heroes MUST toss the scepter into the fires in the deep chasm or BIGBAD will be too powerful to defeat. It is also known in some circles that "he who holds the scepter serves the dark one and channels his powers". Of course. The PCs are convinced this is the source of power for Lt. SadFaceSoggyPants so they can eliminate one Lt. AND have a chance of defeating THE DARK ONE. One of the PCs inches closer to the dais...
... and then picks up the scepter and pledges allegiance to the dark one!
What do you do?
Updated details for the discerning;
1. Lt. MiniBadGuy IS using the scepter - that's where he gets his power. The nebulous connection between the scepter and the BIGBAD GUY is yet to be defined. You made it up as they entered the room. You thought it would be cool to have this Lt. to have some physical connection to his boss.
2. You didn't necessarily set the scenario up this way. Maybe you just improved various reactions and this where you all ended up?
3. The player doesn't normally do things like this, but they did mention that they have an evil heart in their background.
Quote from: trechriron;938576What do you do?
Smile gleefully, and thank my lucky stars this is a player in my campaign.
Quote from: Black Vulmea;938577Smile gleefully, and thank my lucky stars this is a player in my campaign.
This.
A whole new campaign has just started with a PC as protagonist and a player that I can use to help co-GM.
Wouldn't that just end in a TPK.
Not enough data.
Is this a table where the PCs regularly pull stunts like this? Is betrayal the norm?
Or is the player trying a double agent ploy to get close to the enemy and use their own power against them?
Or is the player just being a dick? Out of the blue? Or is this part of chronic dickery?
Or is the player playing it as a power greedy type who thinks they can make that power their own?
and so on.
Depending on the details the PC may have just become a NPC, or they may become a co-DM/DM helper. Or player and DM are about to swap places as the campaign takes off in a new direction. Or they get very dead before they can consolidate. Or... and so on.
Oh so many many ways it could go.
I'd turn to the players and ask them: "What do you do?" while secretly hoping that they all follow suit...
Quote from: Necrozius;938589I'd turn to the players and ask them: "What do you do?"
This, and then run things as they occur.
We had a faintly similar situation years ago in which the group confronted an aspect of the horrible deity of death and disease. As they were perparing to brawl with him to save a companion in its grasp, the party Necromancer shouted, "Take me!" to the dark one. So I did just that. Sucked his soul right into the netherworld (and spat it out much later as an avatar and party antagonist). I mean, he DID say "Take me..."
Quote from: cranebump;938593This, and then run things as they occur.
We had a faintly similar situation years ago in which the group confronted an aspect of the horrible deity of death and disease. As they were perparing to brawl with him to save a companion in its grasp, the party Necromancer shouted, "Take me!" to the dark one. So I did just that. Sucked his soul right into the netherworld (and spat it out much later as an avatar and party antagonist). I mean, he DID say "Take me..."
What was his reaction and everyone else's reaction?
SICK GUITAR RIFF would be my reaction.
Then I'd have to decide whether to let the player continue playing this character as an antagonist (which is what I'd be inclined to do), or turn the character into a NPC and have him roll a new one (if the player wasn't cool with epic head-on PvP in grand old Arnesonian tradition).
I would ask the other players "What do you do?"
Because fuck "how the story is supposed to go."
And double fuck "throw the evil dingbat into the Anus of Doom to destroy Lord Killfuck Soulshitter."
And then I hope the players beat seventeen kinds of everliving shit out of me for pulling such lame-ass buttnuggetry on them in the first place.
Quote from: Omega;938587Not enough data....
Oh so many many ways it could go.
Stop fire-walling your creative heart! Just tell me what you would do!!??!! Fill in the details as you desire.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;938599... lame-ass buttnuggetry on them in the first place.
It's just an exercise. No need to place any emotional context on the setup...
Quote from: Black Vulmea;938577Smile gleefully, and thank my lucky stars this is a player in my campaign.
Yeah, this:D!
Quote from: Necrozius;938589I'd turn to the players and ask them: "What do you do?" while secretly hoping that they all follow suit...
And then, this;).
(Come on, Gronan, that's just an example situation!)
Yep, seems like the ball is in the Players' court.
I hand them the ingredients but they make the cake... or pie... or custard tart... or whatever.
I'd introduce a corruption track for the PC. He now has access to several high-level evil spells, even if his class isn't normally a spellcaster. Each time he casts one he must make a willpower check or something similar. A failed roll means he takes points of corruption. The more corruption he takes, the more penalties he takes. The penalties may be applied to any combination of the following: non-evil actions, non-evil spells, morally good actions, morally good spells, actions that don't help the Dark One, and actions that actively oppose the Dark One. If the PC gains too many corruption points he becomes an NPC. Corruption points can be removed by intentionally abstaining from using the Dark One's spells for a length of time, but that might leave them vulnerable when their enemies attack. If the player loses the staff he immediately loses access to any of the spells it granted him.
Quote from: trechriron;938576Let's set the scene: You're GMing a relaxing regular weekly game, everything is swell, people are having fun. The characters finally corner the Lt. BadGuyMiniBigBad in some gods-forsaken corner of the dungeon. The epic battle ensues with melee strikes, kung-fu shenanigans and flying spells. All the clues point to one solution - the heroes MUST toss the scepter into the fires in the deep chasm or BIGBAD will be too powerful to defeat. It is also known in some circles that "he who holds the scepter serves the dark one and channels his powers". Of course. The PCs are convinced this is the source of power for Lt. SadFaceSoggyPants so they can eliminate one Lt. AND have a chance of defeating THE DARK ONE. One of the PCs inches closer to the dais...
... and then picks up the scepter and pledges allegiance to the dark one!
What do you do?
I ran a campaign of that. PCs were standard do gooders. They went I to a demonic lair and the party leader heard the tempting whisperings of Tharizdun. He decided to follow the big T. Talked the rest of the party into switching allegiances.
The party then spent the next year of gaming trying to collect the Theorparts to release Tharizdun (see Gord novels). It was an infamous campaign full of vileness and evil.
After a year or however of running it, I noticed that playing out all the wretched scenes was getting to me in real life. One session where they sacrificed a village worth of children particularly bothered me. So the campaign had to be killed off. The next session would be the last.
I started the session off explaining that the gruesomeness was not how I wanted to spend every other Sunday and that their Scarlet Brotherhood enemies (they were searching for a Theorpart there) had sent a vast army to destroy them (army statted out). Something like ten straight hours of the PCs battling the army was an awesome ending. They almost pulled it off (2e PCs in teen levels are tough). Twenty years later, they still brag about how well they fought that hopeless TPK battle.
Overall, easily in the top five most memorable campaigns. Lots of campaigns where the PCs simply vanquished the evil have left by since been forgotten.
So, I say let the PC grab the scepter, pledge their allegiance, and play out the game to see where it goes.
Quote from: trechriron;938601Stop fire-walling your creative heart! Just tell me what you would do!!??!! Fill in the details as you desire.
As a player what would I do in that situation?
No matter out of the blue or not the minute the PC did this and my round came around theyd have my Warlocks shield stuck in their ribs. Id be either setting up or taking advantage of flanking. But If I think I can line it up then I would try to ram them into that pit of destruction instead.
Quote from: trechriron;938576Let's set the scene: You're GMing a relaxing regular weekly game, everything is swell, people are having fun. The characters finally corner the Lt. BadGuyMiniBigBad in some gods-forsaken corner of the dungeon. The epic battle ensues with melee strikes, kung-fu shenanigans and flying spells. All the clues point to one solution - the heroes MUST toss the scepter into the fires in the deep chasm or BIGBAD will be too powerful to defeat. It is also known in some circles that "he who holds the scepter serves the dark one and channels his powers". Of course. The PCs are convinced this is the source of power for Lt. SadFaceSoggyPants so they can eliminate one Lt. AND have a chance of defeating THE DARK ONE. One of the PCs inches closer to the dais...
... and then picks up the scepter and pledges allegiance to the dark one!
What do you do?
Pinch myself to try and wake from this twisted fever dream of running D and D!
...
...
I'll get my coat.
Don't worry, I'll show myself out.
Quote from: trechriron;938576What do you do?
Leap up and do the Happy Dance!!
First, I would roleplay the Voice of Darkness in the PC's head, asking him what is he willing to do for my favor? It is not enough to grab the scepter, you must prove you are worthy of it's power.
Then, I would turn to the other players and throw down some fear / confusion checks, and ask for actions.
Quote from: trechriron;938576... and then picks up the scepter and pledges allegiance to the dark one!
What do you do?
Fuck knows. I don't get players with enough balls to do that. But anyway,
I don't do anything as the DM, I just wait to see what the players do and react to it.
Try my hardest to fight the urge to cackle gleefully. I usually manage to finish out the session and make my way home before bursting into maniacal laughter when my players screw themselves without realizing it, but I'm not sure whether I'd be able to keep it together in this situation.
Aside from that, though, it's up to the players how they want to react. I'm certainly not going to tell them how to respond, although I'd be hoping for at least a moment of stunned silence to give me a chance to start drumming up ideas for what the Dark Lord might want the PC to do in his name and how to motivate him to do that.
Quote from: trechriron;938576Let's set the scene: You're GMing a relaxing regular weekly game, everything is swell, people are having fun. The characters finally corner the Lt. BadGuyMiniBigBad in some gods-forsaken corner of the dungeon. The epic battle ensues with melee strikes, kung-fu shenanigans and flying spells. All the clues point to one solution - the heroes MUST toss the scepter into the fires in the deep chasm or BIGBAD will be too powerful to defeat. It is also known in some circles that "he who holds the scepter serves the dark one and channels his powers". Of course. The PCs are convinced this is the source of power for Lt. SadFaceSoggyPants so they can eliminate one Lt. AND have a chance of defeating THE DARK ONE. One of the PCs inches closer to the dais...
... and then picks up the scepter and pledges allegiance to the dark one!
What do you do?
Without the attempt at being cute...
Hopefully the pre game discussion and previous role play had given me at least an inkling this was possible so I'd have something in mind but as the example hinges on that not being the case...
If the action seems appropriately in character, try to go with it according to what the abilities of the scepter are and what feels like the best option at the time such as having the dark god issue its demands to the character in return for the power it offers. Let the PCs roleplay it out how they wish. If the character does go through with their face heel turn they'll probably become an NPC (I burned out on "evil" games awhile ago and they're likely not compatible with the rest of the group anymore). But its certainly an exciting and interesting turn of events.
If the action seems to have more OOC motivations or be completely out of character, pause the action and talk with the player to try and understand what prompted it and if the issue can be resolved up too and including a retcon if required.
I’m going to need to translate this into terms I can work with.
Quote from: trechriron;938576You're GMing a relaxing regular weekly game, everything is swell, people are having fun.
So they game is running weekly, and I’m inferring that we’re not wrapping it up yet. We’re fighting mini-bosses and working our way up that level chart.
Quote from: trechriron;938576The characters finally corner the Mid boss in some gods-forsaken corner of the dungeon. Epic battle ensues.
All the clues point to one solution - the heroes MUST toss the scepter into the fires in the deep chasm or the (???Mid???) Boss will be too powerful to defeat.
Who’s going to be too powerful? Is it:
1) The guy they’re fighting? Seems like I fucked up, making him unbeatable except by plot contrivance
2) The last boss of the game? Again, I probably fucked up linking his defeat to a macguffin (well a plot device, but yeah)
This shit doesn’t come up in games I run. If the bad guy has an artifact, that’s considered part of the challenge of beating him. How you beat him is still up to you, as a player.
Quote from: trechriron;938576It is also known in some circles that "he who holds the scepter serves the dark one and channels his powers".
The PCs are convinced this is the source of power for the Mid boss so they can eliminate him and have a chance of defeating the Final Boss.
So is it like, if one of the ringwraiths had the one ring, and you basically HAD to toss it into mount doom to beat either him or Sauron?
Kinda seems like I fucked up if that’s the campaign structure. That’s a systemic fucking problem with the way I structured the adventure.
Quote from: trechriron;938576One of the PCs inches closer to the dais...
... and then picks up the scepter and pledges allegiance to the dark one!
Let me tell you the story of the
first dungeon in my campaign. There was an evil sorcerer with an evil crown that let him control the undead. There was also an evil sword that killed a dragon and turns you into a psychotic killing machine if you tap into its power. Further, if you die while wielding it, you become the “boss” of the dungeon (a ringwraith, basically).
You know who’s wearing both of those magic items right now? My wife’s Lawful Elf character.
If you, as the person making the scenario, go into it with this “There is a right and proper solution and everything else is chaos” kind of attitude, you’re fucking up. If you stat that fucking scepter (and you should, since you’re making your players fight the guy who has it) then it DOES whatever it DOES when they steal it.
Does it change their alignment? Or drive them crazy? Maybe NOTHING?
Whatever, doesn’t matter; regard them picking up the scepter of unmitigated evil without any knowledge of the consequences the same way you would regard them opening a trapped door without investigating it. They get the consequences and benefits of their actions, simple as that.
…. Wait, what was the question again?
... Thank the merciful stars that the topic title was not the start of some appaling slash fic trend on this site? :D
But honestly, "rock falls, everyone dies," because it hasn't been used here as a response for months on end... and well, who doesn't love the classics?
:cool:
Well, it's unlikely I have that set-up at all in an ongoing campaign, particularly the sceptre bit. People might assume that from fiction tropes, but that's unlikely to be true in a campaign I set up. If it's such a great item, why isn't Lt. Cliche using it? Probably because the rumor isn't accurate, and Lt Cliche knows not to use it, and has something better to use in the fight. (Interrogating Lt. Cliche could be a very good idea.) So the PC doing that may just be a fool exposing themselves as an untrustworthy fool to the other PCs. In any case, it's unlikely I gave that sceptre the power to make someone invulnerable, so the other PC's may want to take out their former friend, depending. When PCs have good reasons to attack each other, I let them. But it could be all sorts of things, and trying that could get them more information about what's actually going on. It could be the PC is trying to gain that sort of information, or bluff/fool Lt Cliche into thinking the rumors ARE true, so they can take him out without a fight.
In any case, I would have defined in advance what the sceptre actually does (not to include making anyone invulnerable), what Lt Cliche knows and is thinking, including behavior that makes sense regarding the sceptre, such as if it is the best thing for a minion of Dr. DoomCliche to use, he would probably be using it, not leaving it sitting around for PCs to pick up. Then I would game out the results of actions and rolls using the rules and roleplaying the NPCs appropriately.
If it really was true that the item gave great powers to whoever held it and pledged allegiance to Dr. DoomCliche, and a PC did so (and the PC was capable of doing so - not just the player thinking it's cool to ignore the character description to do something unexpected), then I'd naturally give the PC those powers as long as they were loyal (though how possible it is to be loyal to someone you haven't even met might be an issue). The other PCs and NPCs would have to all decide what to do about this. PCs not wanting to shift allegiance would probably try to do something about it unless they thought it was a ruse, likely leading to some PvP mayhem, which would seem appropriate. If all the PCs actually decide to follow suit, then if it's in-character, I guess we now have a "minions of Dr. DoomCliche" campaign, though Lt. Cliche might be jealous or suspicious and continue the fight or backstab them later. They would probably get to learn a lot about the DoomCliche club and some of them might change their minds when they learn more details, leading to various paranoia/betrayal/loyalty-test nastiness. Generally I don't really want to run evil club PC parties but it would depend on the specifics.
Play it out. What would probably happen in my group:
EvilPlayer grabs the scepter in a mad bid to become the new Lt. BBEG...
Some of the party would try to convince EvilPlayer to stop, etc...
Some of the party would, without hesitation, focus-fire on EvilPlayer.
Some of the party would attempt to neutralize all hostile characters so that this can be dealt with rationally.
The short-term result of this could be a TPK.
The long-term result of this could be Case:Nightmare Green*
Either way, we play it out. Sometimes the world ends in fire, sometimes in ice.
*Edit:for those not familiar with The Laundry Files, that's When The Stars Come Right, a Supernatural Extinction Level Event.
Quote from: trechriron;938576Let's set the scene: You're GMing a relaxing regular weekly game, everything is swell, people are having fun. The characters finally corner the Lt. BadGuyMiniBigBad in some gods-forsaken corner of the dungeon. The epic battle ensues with melee strikes, kung-fu shenanigans and flying spells. All the clues point to one solution - the heroes MUST toss the scepter into the fires in the deep chasm or BIGBAD will be too powerful to defeat. It is also known in some circles that "he who holds the scepter serves the dark one and channels his powers". Of course. The PCs are convinced this is the source of power for Lt. SadFaceSoggyPants so they can eliminate one Lt. AND have a chance of defeating THE DARK ONE. One of the PCs inches closer to the dais...
... and then picks up the scepter and pledges allegiance to the dark one!
What do you do?
Sit back and wait for the other players to react, then watch the carnage unfold. If anyone survives then I have a mini-campaign just ready to be played.
Quote from: Nexus;938630Pinch myself to try and wake from this twisted fever dream of running D and D!
That situation would work perfectly well with RuneQuest or, probably, any game. Nothing D&Dish there.
Robilar freed the demon Zuggtomy from Greyhawk Castle.
The game went on.
Of course, as I've said more times before than I can count, we didn't play "ONE BAND OF HEROES TRIED AND TRUE WELDED TOGETHER AT THE HIP."
Also, I don't have "bosses" and "mini bosses" and "lieutenant bosses." I have NPCs who are pursing their agendas, and how the players interact with them is up to the players.
The world has been running for centuries and will continue to run for centuries. Sorhed's Dark Carbuncle of Doom has NOT come to a head, and the PCs do not need to soundly lance it ere Sorhed starts his own loathsome squeeze play.
Ok. Three things. First a lot of people seem to be reacting to stuff you havent said but they think you are saying.
2. I think its time for a one on one role play in the other room. Do people still do that?
3. And this is related to a lot of other stuff. You can either have a manipultive DM who changes details baised on whim or desire for story, or to fit the setting/make things cooler, or forgetfullness. Or you can have manipulative NPCs who trick the players. You cant have both.
So if on a whim you decided to add a Muggifin. And told them what it did. It has to do that. But if the muggifin has been there all along, than it possible tricksy ringwraiths have circulated miss information. (But dont make your NPCs omniscient)
To put it another way. You can't have a lieing DM lie about whether or not the liers are lieing.
Not in an imaginary world with out objective reality.
Headless, I just have to ask...do you type on a watch or something? ;)
Another possible outcome that could be interesting (but I wouldn't do anything to try to make it happen) would be if the newly-evil PC and any sympathizers join Lt. Cliche in escaping (or if the still-heroic PCs flee), leading to a game that could be run with some players as antagonists or an opposing group.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;938792Of course, as I've said more times before than I can count, we didn't play "ONE BAND OF HEROES TRIED AND TRUE WELDED TOGETHER AT THE HIP."
You know... I've pretty much never seen that in any group I've played in or DMed for.
Sure the groups tended to try to stay together. Its pretty much a death sentence in most RPGs to not to. (Unless you really know you are too much for the area.) But rare have they been really close. There might be strong friendships between smaller groups in the group. But never the whole group unified.
And back to the OPs question.
As a DM what would I do?
First off the villain is going to try and get the device back ASAP. And since they just dropped it that means they are close enough to make a grab for it and I foresee a nice little tug-o-war developing.
Past that I do like some of the others here and wait to see how the other players react.
Quote from: soltakss;938778That situation would work perfectly well with RuneQuest or, probably, any game. Nothing D&Dish there.
It would be a little odd in Bunnies and Burrows
It was a joke, man. :)
Though cornering the guy/gal/ghoulie in a "dungeon" did feel like a reference to D and D style jargon where dungeon is a place where adventures occur and might be anything from a cave complex to a ruined castle to the rotting body of a dead giant unless it was meant as a literal dungeon which would be kind of odd place for this sort of showdown to happen but anything's possible.
But besides, its fantasy role playing. Isn't all fantasy role playing D and D?
(Kidding)
Quote from: Omega;938843You know... I've pretty much never seen that in any group I've played in or DMed for.
Sure the groups tended to try to stay together. Its pretty much a death sentence in most RPGs to not to. (Unless you really know you are too much for the area.) But rare have they been really close. There might be strong friendships between smaller groups in the group. But never the whole group unified.
Generally been the other way for us. The PCs were pretty tight or get to be that way quickly. There were rivalries and animosity but rarely anything violent or aggressive among PCs. Even in Vampire bizarrely enough.
Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;938792Also, I don't have "bosses" and "mini bosses" and "lieutenant bosses." I have NPCs who are pursing their agendas, and how the players interact with them is up to the players.
Yes you do. The King of a castle who happens to be a warrior powerful enough to challenge the PC's. The Wizard at the top of the Tower. Those are Bosses.
It seems you're confused in thinking that video games came up with the concept, rather than just codifying it.
Every bad guy in an action/adventure movie, television, comic, novel, is a Boss encounter. A mini-Boss or Bosses, are lieutenants that have a bunch of minions/goons to control. The Boss idea has been in most media and stories we've been telling ourselves since the conception of language.
Video Games just codified it firmly, but it's been in pulp adventure comics, Western movies from the 30's to 70's and beyond, from Epic Fantasy stories. Hell, what do you think Lord of The Ring's Sauron was? Yeah, there was a macguffin to defeat him, but he was the end boss of the story, the goal to defeat in some fashion. You don't have to 'fight' an end boss, a 'puzzle' is another method to defeat.
Yes, you do use it, because D&D is built around the same assumptions, as long as you're using Conan of Cimmeria, Errol Flynn movies and The Lord of The Rings trilogy as inspirations.
Quote from: Nexus;938907Isn't all fantasy role playing D and D?
Yes.
Quote from: Opaopajr;938693... Thank the merciful stars that the topic title was not the start of some appaling slash fic trend on this site? :D
What slash?
She grabs the sceptre:D!
That's no slash, though it could be a fan fiction;).
Quote from: CRKrueger;938833Headless, I just have to ask...do you type on a watch or something? ;)
Yes.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;938936Yes you do. The King of
I think he means that he doesn't create bosses as gates to pass through to advance the party along a central storyline but instead worlds for the PCs to rattle around in with 'bosses' as lesser and greater challenges that players may or may not choose to work against and eventually have to deal with.
Seems to me there is a difference in how artificial and forced the players' relationship is to particular villains.
Or more simply, is the GM running the game as if there is an expected series of escalating confrontations with mooks and then bosses which are often set-pieces and may involve puzzle-like challenges that have good & bad solutions that strongly determine the outcome, where brute force, tactics or other logical ideas that may come up in play probably wouldn't work?
Even the real world has rulers, lieutenants, soldiers, servants, and even some crime bosses with multi-level organizations. The real-world even has some anti-organized-crime units which track crime organizations, often for years, trying to imprison elusive crime bosses who are insulated by their organizations. But that's only what a small sliver of the population is up to, the world doesn't hang in the balance, it doesn't tend to go down like Miami Vice with hierarchical engagements and climactic heroic gun battles where the boss is a combat monster, and the puzzles are about how to get them convicted properly.
When I notice that I have something like a "big bad evil guy", I check myself to see how cliché I am being, and tend to expect my players to avoid them rather than track them down. I look for other things I can flesh out and have be interesting. If they do start trying to loot some dangerous evil type, I just detail the evil guy and related characters, where they are and what they do, and play out what happens. Rarely if ever am I going to set it up like a puzzle where they have powerful enchantments which are essentially puzzles for the players to solve how they can be used as a fatal weakness.
Instead of the players following clues and fighting mook fights leading to mini-boss fights leading to big-bad-boss fights solved by designed-in puzzle weaknesses, the players tend to approach things in their own way, and often the target organization notices and tries to organize itself to deal with the threat, so it becomes a kind of information & maneuver battle and/or pursuit/evasion. And meanwhile everything else in the world is also going on and responding to any chaos this may be causing, and often various (PC & NPC) characters in the struggle may opt to go far away instead of fighting it out.
Quote from: Skarg;939075Seems to me there is a difference in how artificial and forced the players' relationship is to particular villains.
...
I don't understand how, after reading the scenario I posited, that everyone is inferring so much background. Also, why are you all jumping to the worse Evil DM scenario?
What if several clues discovered during previous adventures pointed to the possibility of this scepter being both a source of power and a way to bypass the BigBadEvilGuy's defenses? Now, why does this mean this is the ONLY way to bypass his defenses? Why assume that this DM in the scenario is railroading his players?
You know what's even more disconcerting about this thought exercise?
The setup placed YOU as the GM. YOU are GMing the scenario. I made no mention of how you got there, or the setup, or anything. In media res you find yourself at this moment, and then I ask "What do you do?".
This leads me to believe that the bulk of people admonishing this terrible GM are actually admonishing themselves! It's also an interesting dive into the psychology of people. Even with all the power, all the imagination, all the ability to frame your response with you being in control - you still pissed all over the GM (yourselves). Weird.
Maybe, understanding the purpose of [Think Fast] - some of you want to stop pissing on yourselves and answer the question with "the FULL power of your fully operational GMing capabilities"?
Quote from: trechriron;939095This leads me to believe that the bulk of people admonishing this terrible GM are actually admonishing themselves! It's also an interesting dive into the psychology of people. Even with all the power, all the imagination, all the ability to frame your response with you being in control - you still pissed all over the GM (yourselves). Weird.
Entire rest of post pre-stipulated to be opinion and my own interpretationWell, not exactly. People are saying, "I, as a DM, would never..." So no, they aren't admonishing themselves, they are being defensive about their own DMing talents. Why people consider this scenario to be so odious, or even why we feel the need to pretend that our own DMing is universally beyond reproach are topics worthy of analysis. However, I think you miss the mark to say we are admonishing ourselves.
WE jump to the "worse evil DM scenario" because we didn't get that you were actually asking "how do you deal with surprise actions from your players?"
Like I said in the other thread about "GM Contrivances," there is nothing surprising to me in the initial scenario. The players can do any possible action, so a player deciding to switch sides is just another action. There is nothing to "think fast" ABOUT.
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So if the players decide to take off after the dread highwayman Celerus the Nutpuncher, they could never find him, they could fight him and get punched in the nuts, they could throw in with him and join his Squeaky Men, or one of the PCs could punch HIM in the nuts and declare that SHE is the new Celerus the Nutpuncher! Like Dread Pirate Roberts, only with more nut punching.
Or, the PCs could say, "Sod this, we're going to hire a boat and look for the Island of Concupiscent Redheads to find the shy and gentle Huge-Hootered Winklekisser."
Or the female PCs could say "To hell with you, WE're going to sail to the Island of Male Swimmers and Gymnasts who Cook and Give Foot Rubs."
Or something else.
Quote from: trechriron;939095I don't understand how, after reading the scenario I posited, that everyone is inferring so much background. Also, why are you all jumping to the worse Evil DM scenario?
In the part you quoted me from this thread, I was responding to the people in this thread on a tangent asserting that every GM has big bosses, trying to talk about that distinction.
QuoteWhat if several clues discovered during previous adventures pointed to the possibility of this scepter being both a source of power and a way to bypass the BigBadEvilGuy's defenses? Now, why does this mean this is the ONLY way to bypass his defenses?
Er, perhaps because you wrote in the OP:
"All the clues point to one solution - the heroes MUST toss the scepter into the fires in the deep chasm or BIGBAD will be too powerful to defeat."?
QuoteWhy assume that this DM in the scenario is railroading his players?
Well, it sounds to me like he likely is, from the bit I mentioned. Which is why in my reply to the original thread (http://www.therpgsite.com/showthread.php?35862-Think-Fast-and-then-she-picks-up-the-scepter&p=938735&viewfull=1#post938735), I went into so much detail about how I might do it if somehow that were a scenario in a game I were running. I mentioned many possible ways it could go, and I don't recall any of them being railroads.
QuoteYou know what's even more disconcerting about this thought exercise?
The setup placed YOU as the GM. YOU are GMing the scenario. I made no mention of how you got there, or the setup, or anything. In media res you find yourself at this moment, and then I ask "What do you do?".
This leads me to believe that the bulk of people admonishing this terrible GM are actually admonishing themselves! It's also an interesting dive into the psychology of people. Even with all the power, all the imagination, all the ability to frame your response with you being in control - you still pissed all over the GM (yourselves). Weird.
Maybe, understanding the purpose of [Think Fast] - some of you want to stop pissing on yourselves and answer the question with "the FULL power of your fully operational GMing capabilities"?
I'm not sure entirely where you're coming from with this. In my case, in that thread, I think I was pretty clear that if it were my game, what the situation and background would tend to be like, which seemed needful to answer the question in a meaningful context. I didn't say the GM was terrible, but how I might have set it up and many ways it might go. I avoided saying I would do one particular thing, because I wanted to emphasize that it could go many ways, much of which would have to do with the players and how the action played out.
Quote from: Willie the Duck;939052I think he means that he doesn't create bosses as gates to pass through to advance the party along a central storyline but instead worlds for the PCs to rattle around in with 'bosses' as lesser and greater challenges that players may or may not choose to work against and eventually have to deal with.
But that's how the 'Quest' works, whether or not he's telling a story, a human (and I use the term loosely to represent NPC's that will likely hinder the players in some fashion, also likely to be combative) will be a 'gate' that the players will need to pass. The whole Boss thing is a construct that existed LONG before video games. And will continue as long as we mouth breathers exist.
Quote from: trechriron;939095I don't understand how, after reading the scenario I posited, that everyone is inferring so much background.
Because without prior setup we have to make guesses on our own.
Quote from: trechriron;939095Also, why are you all jumping to the worse Evil DM scenario?
Ignoring the fact that this is the RPGSite, the home of the dispossessed dregs of the Big Purple, and that's what we do, human nature often immediately assumes the worse. And when you have people who champion the old vs. the new, is this really such a surprise?
Quote from: trechriron;939095You know what's even more disconcerting about this thought exercise?
The setup placed YOU as the GM. YOU are GMing the scenario. I made no mention of how you got there, or the setup, or anything. In media res you find yourself at this moment, and then I ask "What do you do?".
Very few people can operate with an improv scenario on the fly. I've been doing it for 30 years. And the only reason I haven't responded to this because I don't know the players involved, because I've never played with them. However, if they were a gaming crew I played, which meant trusted, I'd already have thought of a circumstance for them to resolve. But again, I don't know this imaginary table well enough to make any sort of assumptions.
Quote from: trechriron;939095This leads me to believe that the bulk of people admonishing this terrible GM are actually admonishing themselves! It's also an interesting dive into the psychology of people. Even with all the power, all the imagination, all the ability to frame your response with you being in control - you still pissed all over the GM (yourselves). Weird.
See above. Most DM/GMs plan ahead, and when someone throws a screwball some don't know how to react, so they pause the game and think on it. But it often boils down to 'Who am I gaming with'. Because what you do WILL depend on who is at the table. Personal experience: I will react different if I'm running a con table than with my friends to the same scenario.
Quote from: trechriron;939095Maybe, understanding the purpose of [Think Fast] - some of you want to stop pissing on yourselves and answer the question with "the FULL power of your fully operational GMing capabilities"?
It's the RPGSite, I don't think that will happen any time soon.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;939388But that's how the 'Quest' works, whether or not he's telling a story, a human (and I use the term loosely to represent NPC's that will likely hinder the players in some fashion, also likely to be combative) will be a 'gate' that the players will need to pass.
You're assuming that there
is a 'Quest' in the first place. And not just a quest, but an Important-Enough-To-Be-Capitalized, Big-Q Quest. If the PCs aren't being shoehorned into a quest, much less The Quest, then it doesn't matter how The Quest works.
And then you go on to assume that there's a 'gate' which the PCs need to pass. There can just as well be multiple routes to whatever destination the PCs want to reach, potentially allowing them to get there without climbing the Hierarchy of Evil to ultimately face The Boss.
Quote from: Christopher Brady;939388The whole Boss thing is a construct that existed LONG before video games. And will continue as long as we mouth breathers exist.
Agreed, it has been around forever
in stories, and probably always will.
The thing is, a story takes a single path. There may be several alternate paths it could have taken, but they're not a part of whatever story is told. In an RPG, however, all of those paths are (or at least can be) open, allowing the players to choose whichever path they want to follow, including those which do not inevitably lead to The Boss.
Quote from: nDervish;939406And then you go on to assume that there's a 'gate' which the PCs need to pass. There can just as well be multiple routes to whatever destination the PCs want to reach, potentially allowing them to get there without climbing the Hierarchy of Evil to ultimately face The Boss.
I think that this is just one type of scenario, there are many other types which don't include meeting a big boss.
Quote from: nDervish;939406Agreed, it has been around forever in stories, and probably always will.
The thing is, a story takes a single path. There may be several alternate paths it could have taken, but they're not a part of whatever story is told. In an RPG, however, all of those paths are (or at least can be) open, allowing the players to choose whichever path they want to follow, including those which do not inevitably lead to The Boss.
Sure, in such a scenario, the PCs could well take other paths that don't include the Big Boss and that makes it a different scenario. However, sometimes they just need a confrontation.
A gang of criminals, led by a mastermind intent on ruling the area, won't stop until their leader is killed/arrested/stopped. The PCs will keep on running into the criminals until they stop the leader.
A cult intent on opening a doorway into Hell and freeing their demonic lord won't stop until their high priest is stopped. This is an excellent setup for a confrontation between PCs and High Priest trying to summon his Master. If the PCs don't want to get involved, then either carry on dropping hints, putting the cult against the PCs or let the High Priest summon the demon and let the PCs deal with the aftermath.
Quote from: trechriron;939095I don't understand how, after reading the scenario I posited, that everyone is inferring so much background. Also, why are you all jumping to the worse Evil DM scenario?
What if several clues discovered during previous adventures pointed to the possibility of this scepter being both a source of power and a way to bypass the BigBadEvilGuy's defenses? Now, why does this mean this is the ONLY way to bypass his defenses? Why assume that this DM in the scenario is railroading his players?
You know what's even more disconcerting about this thought exercise?
The setup placed YOU as the GM. YOU are GMing the scenario. I made no mention of how you got there, or the setup, or anything. In media res you find yourself at this moment, and then I ask "What do you do?".
This leads me to believe that the bulk of people admonishing this terrible GM are actually admonishing themselves! It's also an interesting dive into the psychology of people. Even with all the power, all the imagination, all the ability to frame your response with you being in control - you still pissed all over the GM (yourselves). Weird.
Maybe, understanding the purpose of [Think Fast] - some of you want to stop pissing on yourselves and answer the question with "the FULL power of your fully operational GMing capabilities"?
Joking about genre preference aside, my stumbling block with the suggested scenario is that if I'd been running the game until this point the PC's sudden face heel turn most likely wouldn't have been a total swerve ball barring some OOC failure or massive communication break down which would usaually prompt an OOC solution like pausing the game and talking to the group. Otherwise, I would have something in mind if Cersei Von Maleficent suddenly decided to show her true colors. There would have been some clues to it and build up in game at least.
Quote from: trechriron;938576Let's set the scene: You're GMing a relaxing regular weekly game, everything is swell, people are having fun. The characters finally corner the Lt. BadGuyMiniBigBad in some gods-forsaken corner of the dungeon. The epic battle ensues with melee strikes, kung-fu shenanigans and flying spells. All the clues point to one solution - the heroes MUST toss the scepter into the fires in the deep chasm or BIGBAD will be too powerful to defeat. It is also known in some circles that "he who holds the scepter serves the dark one and channels his powers". Of course. The PCs are convinced this is the source of power for Lt. SadFaceSoggyPants so they can eliminate one Lt. AND have a chance of defeating THE DARK ONE. One of the PCs inches closer to the dais...
... and then picks up the scepter and pledges allegiance to the dark one!
What do you do?
Updated details for the discerning;
1. Lt. MiniBadGuy IS using the scepter - that's where he gets his power. The nebulous connection between the scepter and the BIGBAD GUY is yet to be defined. You made it up as they entered the room. You thought it would be cool to have this Lt. to have some physical connection to his boss.
2. You didn't necessarily set the scenario up this way. Maybe you just improved various reactions and this where you all ended up?
3. The player doesn't normally do things like this, but they did mention that they have an evil heart in their background.
I
say:"Brother Bethel, it's your turn, watcha doin...."
Quote from: Nexus;939443. . . Cersei Von Maleficent . . .
Love it. :cool:
And no, I don't think it's necessary to foreshadow at all. Pure impulse, or the reveal of a dark, dark secret, or whatever-the-fuck-ever, doesn't matter all that much to me. The 'why' is far less important to me than what happens next.
Why did they call the now-evil player's wand a "scepter?"
Cuz everybody's lawful good.... 'cept her!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0neB1b29l8
I dont think its bad DMing at all.
As said. As a DM Id have the villain try to wrestle back the scepter the second their initiative came up. And before or after that I see what the remaining players do depending on their initiative counts.
And as a player the second my initiative comes up someones going to be really sorry. (hopefully not me or my character...)
Quote from: trechriron;938576Let's set the scene: You're GMing a relaxing regular weekly game, everything is swell, people are having fun. The characters finally corner the Lt. BadGuyMiniBigBad in some gods-forsaken corner of the dungeon. The epic battle ensues with melee strikes, kung-fu shenanigans and flying spells. All the clues point to one solution - the heroes MUST toss the scepter into the fires in the deep chasm or BIGBAD will be too powerful to defeat. It is also known in some circles that "he who holds the scepter serves the dark one and channels his powers". Of course. The PCs are convinced this is the source of power for Lt. SadFaceSoggyPants so they can eliminate one Lt. AND have a chance of defeating THE DARK ONE. One of the PCs inches closer to the dais...
... and then picks up the scepter and pledges allegiance to the dark one!
What do you do?
Updated details for the discerning;
1. Lt. MiniBadGuy IS using the scepter - that's where he gets his power. The nebulous connection between the scepter and the BIGBAD GUY is yet to be defined. You made it up as they entered the room. You thought it would be cool to have this Lt. to have some physical connection to his boss.
2. You didn't necessarily set the scenario up this way. Maybe you just improved various reactions and this where you all ended up?
3. The player doesn't normally do things like this, but they did mention that they have an evil heart in their background.
What do you do? You fucking run with it! That's how it works in RPGs.
You need to have determined whether the scepter actually matters or not. If it doesn't, then obviously nothing happens and then the PC who just swore allegiance to the Dark One has a lot of explaining to do.
If it does, you go with it and see what happens.