Quote from: Telarus;935578"Mana-point" systems: positives - caster feels he can access any spell at any time.

I don't think that's necessarily inherent to Mana-Point systems. Most all the BRP-related systems use some form of Magic Points but some of them also have limitations on how many spells you can have at the ready. Magic World limits it to half your INT in Spell Levels. If you want to swap out spells it's gonna take time, longer for the more powerful ones... or variable powered ones that need to be memorized at max. Also, you have to have access to your spell grimoire to swap spells... and that grimoire would need to have the spell you want. It doesn't start off having all the spells in the game, you have to go out and find/steal/buy them.

Quote from: Simlasa;935615I don't think that's necessarily inherent to Mana-Point systems. Most all the BRP-related systems use some form of Magic Points but some of them also have limitations on how many spells you can have at the ready. Magic World limits it to half your INT in Spell Levels. If you want to swap out spells it's gonna take time, longer for the more powerful ones... or variable powered ones that need to be memorized at max. Also, you have to have access to your spell grimoire to swap spells... and that grimoire would need to have the spell you want. It doesn't start off having all the spells in the game, you have to go out and find/steal/buy them.

That's what I've seen. (and similar to my homebrew)  Usually the number of spells you have can have ready is about the same as a fire-n-forget system, maybe less not up on the current iterations of D&D.  Essentially you have a repertoire of spells you can choose from, so greater flexibility in spell choice.  How powerful they are and how many you can cast depends on the mechanics.

Quote from: JoeNuttall;935599My approach is to have spell lists with separate mana pools for each list.  That means that you cannot cast all spells – only the lists you took – and you can run out of mana in one list so have to resort to another list. This forces you to be creative with your spells, and keeps the number to choose from manageable.

That's kind of reminiscent of Rackham's old Cadwallon game. In that, Magic Users cast using elemental gems... which function like magic points that come in different flavors and can only power spells from certain schools (though some schools can use any type of gem in their magics).
A Magic User can only attune to a certain number of gems at a time, so he has to pre-plan somewhat... having a bag full of, say, fire gems, generally means he'll be able to cast any known spell that's powered by that type... but a few spells require a combination of types (like 2 Fire and 1 Air).

Quote from: Simlasa;935617That's kind of reminiscent of Rackham's old Cadwallon game. In that, Magic Users cast using elemental gems... which function like magic points that come in different flavors and can only power spells from certain schools (though some schools can use any type of gem in their magics).
A Magic User can only attune to a certain number of gems at a time, so he has to pre-plan somewhat... having a bag full of, say, fire gems, generally means he'll be able to cast any known spell that's powered by that type... but a few spells require a combination of types (like 2 Fire and 1 Air).

It sound's similar in that the points are tracked separately, but in other ways quite different. It re-introduces the pre-planning aspect, and (presumably) allows you to spam the fireball equivalent by loading up on just Fire Gems. It could be fun but the 2 Fire & 1 Air to cast this spell sounds a bit too MTG for me.

Quote from: JoeNuttall;935629It sound's similar in that the points are tracked separately, but in other ways quite different. It re-introduces the pre-planning aspect, and (presumably) allows you to spam the fireball equivalent by loading up on just Fire Gems. It could be fun but the 2 Fire & 1 Air to cast this spell sounds a bit too MTG for me.

Yeah, really it's only like yours in having the MP subdivided. You could load up on fire gems, and just cast fireballs... but as mentioned elsewhere, that kind of makes you a one-trick pony who will have to have a sit-down before he can do something less blasteriffic (though not ALL fire-based spells are offensive... just as all encounters are (hopefully) not combat... and Fireball is not the best option for all combats).
As for being like MTG... it does derive from a wargame, so it's got a similar provenance as far as laying in resources for isolated conflicts, trying to predict/out think your adversary. But IIRC the spells that use more than one sort of gem are the exception.

Quote from: Xanther;935510I've been at this about 10 years less than you, and never played in the original games, but never saw anyone (no matter how much they wanted to) when they had less than 4 spells to choose from, pick Tongues or Fireball; or Read Magic or Mending or Message over Sleep or Magic Missile.  Well except for me, I've chosen Mending; and believe Unseen Servant is one of the best 1st level AD&D spells ever.

My experience is just the opposite.  By the time you have 4 1st level spells you aren't interested in orcs or goblins any more and your fighters should be able to mow through them like wheat, so Sleep drops out of favor in favor of Charm Person.  For a 4th level magic user, which is when I think you get 4 first level spells, most people I know would take 1 sleep, 1 Charm Person, and a couple utility spells.

You want the FIREBALL for the "Oh SHIT!" moments, sure, but most of the time we figured killing things was the fighters' job.

But as we played, you had to navigate your way in and navigate your way out... no "hup ho you go home." So the trip home had all those lovely wandering monster checks as well as "Did we get teleported or does our map suck?"

This means that the longer you stay in the dungeon, the better.  Which turns magic user spells into a rare and valuable resource, and the greater variety of situations you can handle the better.  FIREBALL does you no good if what you really need is "Fly".

Quote from: Ashakyre;935403I've seen folks say they don't like mana point systems but I can't recall them going into details. For those of you that don't like spending mana points to cast spells, why do you dislike this approach? For those who are on the fence, how could mana point systems be implemented so you preferred it?

My only potential problem with them is in how they might be dissociative. If the game does not present an adequate in-universe explanation for them, they potentially just become excessive book-keeping that takes a player out of character.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;935648My only potential problem with them is in how they might be dissociative. If the game does not present an adequate in-universe explanation for them, they potentially just become excessive book-keeping that takes a player out of character.

Do you mean you want some kind of game world explanation why someone is losing mana points? How about "spells make you tired?"

My game you only lose points on a bad spellcasting roll. If you cast a spell correctly, you're drawing energy from your surroundings, concentrating it, and releasing in the form of a spell. If you cast a spell badly, you gradually exhaust your own internal magical apparatus, however you conceptualize it. Instead of drawing energy from your surroundings, you're spending yourself - spending your own ability to cast spells.

Quote from: Ashakyre;935659Do you mean you want some kind of game world explanation why someone is losing mana points? How about "spells make you tired?"

So what does that mean then, "mana points" are stamina? Are they based on Con or Str? Do you recover them by sleeping? Can you spend them to stay up past your bed time,fight off fatigue, or win a marathon, outside of casting spells? Thats all I mean, I want the game to offer and sustain a logical consistency for the book-keeping procedures that reinforces the ties between the mechanics and gameworld.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;935648My only potential problem with them is in how they might be dissociative. If the game does not present an adequate in-universe explanation for them, they potentially just become excessive book-keeping that takes a player out of character.

Haha, note that to even attempt to describe Earthdawn casting I had to describe the metaphysics involved, the Horrors, and why casting changed because of them.

Quote from: Telarus;935677Haha, note that to even attempt to describe Earthdawn casting I had to describe the metaphysics involved, the Horrors, and why casting changed because of them.

I loved reading Earthdawn's magic system, circa first edition, but I would never think of attempting to play it.

Quote from: Tristram Evans;935662So what does that mean then, "mana points" are stamina? Are they based on Con or Str? Do you recover them by sleeping? Can you spend them to stay up past your bed time,fight off fatigue, or win a marathon, outside of casting spells? Thats all I mean, I want the game to offer and sustain a logical consistency for the book-keeping procedures that reinforces the ties between the mechanics and gameworld.

Naw, they're seperate pools, based on other stats. Honestly though the things you're describing would be cool, but I can just as easily imagine "magic" being almost like another system within the mind-body complex, operating separately.

It is a very practical way mostly, if not very inspired. And that is my main problem with it. I does often not feel very thematic. In theory I do like more improvising with different magical aspects, situational conditions and paraphernalia with some other cost than just abstract magic points.

Quote from: Teodrik;935682It is a very practical way mostly, if not very inspired. And that is my main problem with it. I does often not feel very thematic. In theory I do like more improvising with different magical aspects, situational conditions and paraphernalia with some other cost than just abstract magic points.

Its good to hear stuff like this.

Mazes & Minotaurs does 1D6 mana per spell. The randomness is very cool. So you got 10 mana...how many spells are you going to cast? 2? 4?