Quote from: thedungeondelver;917583compare this with the Citadel paints from 1992 that I still have that are still completely fresh)

Yeah, still got mine from the 90's. I'm not sure about 'completely fresh'... but I live in the desert, so I did add a bit of stuff to mine to keep them going... and they're fine (and still pretty much available from Coat D'arms who made them back in the day).

Quote from: Simlasa;917581Why bother with pre-painted minis? Why not go straight to the next step and just make videos of attractive, witty 'celebrities' playing the games and sell tickets to watch?
"I'd never find the time to sit down and actually play a game so I appreciate it that I can watch a really good one of talented people, with nicely painted figs and great terrain, while I'm eating dinner or beating my kids."
Aren't all hobbies becoming spectator sports these days?

Oh, the people I'm speaking of play games, they just play games that don't take up a lot of space or have a lot of prep time.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;917593Oh, the people I'm speaking of play games, they just play games that don't take up a lot of space or have a lot of prep time.

Oh, I'm mostly just making light of all the people I see pushing their RPG videos... or the shouty guys I see filming their games of 40K.
I've been mostly into smaller skirmish games myself these days... Goalsystem stuff and 5150... Song of Blades and Heroes... but I AM building a new wargames table, so huge stompy armies will be seeing action soon enough.

Quote from: thedungeondelver;917583They're a bad company run by people who piss on their die hard customers and tell them it's "Codex Yellow" rain and charge them extra for it.

Hahaha ok, that one was pretty good.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;917565This is blasphemy, and I realise some GW elitists are going to want to castrate me with a rusty band saw and force-fed me Drano for saying this... but I think they should take one of the Warhammer universe "Sub-games" (Mordheim, Necromunda, that inquisitor one) and re-do it with pre-painted collectible plastic figures. They would reach a whole new audience.

You might look up the demise of Rackham to see why that would be a horrible idea

Not the whole line, because that wouldn't be Warhammer anymore and would make no one happy and would be suicide. Just one of the companion games.

Yeah, Rackham crashed because they changed the rule system (trying to get people playing with larger forces) AND stopped making any of the fabulous metal figures, which are what drew most everyone to the game in the first place.
If the pre-paints had been a sideline it might not have gone down the way it did... though I think they were over-extended by that point anyway.
Also didn't help that Jean Bey (main Rackham guy) was such an arrogant fuck.

Khorne damn us all. Being a Warhammer fan is so fucked up.

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;917565but I think they should take one of the Warhammer universe "Sub-games" (Mordheim, Necromunda, that inquisitor one) and re-do it with pre-painted collectible plastic figures. They would reach a whole new audience.

Fully agreed. Something like Kill Teams - 10 figs per side, terrain, 1 hour or less of play. Necromunda would a great option for this.

Quote from: remial;917337one of the IRC channels I used to frequent had a young woman who would complain about the lack of catgirls in the setting.

She would get REALLY upset when I suggested they be chaos mutants or something.

That sounds like it could have been me, except I have no idea what an "IRC channel" is.
XD

Quote from: Crüesader;917356No, really furry people sometimes have this irrational sense of entitlement.

If it were me, it was just a desire for some dreamy wish-fulfilment in a world I thought were awesome at the time.
(Not "entitlement".)

Don't worry, if it were me i'm not pestering you with ideas like that any longer, I created my own game world .... that no one seems to care for ....

Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;917565.... I think they should take one of the Warhammer universe "Sub-games" (Mordheim, Necromunda, that inquisitor one) and re-do it with pre-painted collectible plastic figures. They would reach a whole new audience...

Well, I'd say in any other company that might not be an awful idea- except ULTRAMARINES would be 99% of the options.  Sorry, the Codex Astartes is a shit-awful idea and Rawbutt Girlyman is less 'tactical genius', more 'predictable doctrine-jockey'.  

I'd say having some cheap-ass pre-painted versions of softer plastic for the player with less time might not be too awful, as long as that's not what the line is limited to.

Quote from: Catelf;917622If it were me, it was just a desire for some dreamy wish-fulfilment in a world I thought were awesome at the time.
(Not "entitlement".)

Don't worry, if it were me i'm not pestering you with ideas like that any longer, I created my own game world .... that no one seems to care for ....

That's fine.  The only issue I have is that in some roleplaying environments online, there are 'furry people' that say "Hey, I respect this setting.  Would it be fine if my anthromorphic canine was a genetically engineered hybrid, a spirit entity, or something like that?" Then there' the furry people that are just parading in, as 'Carl the fucking Blue Wolf' and turning it into a degenerate yiffpile, then get pissed off because you want zero interaction with them.  I genuinely saw one furry person compare ignoring furries to being a Jew in the Holocaust.  I'm not joking.

Quote from: Crüesader;917555Actually, what disappointed me more than anything with Deathwatch and Dark Heresy- There wasn't much to work with in terms of 'known' Xenos races.  Sure, some of the lesser-known ones are very cool- no one says a species has to be a military threat in order to be a threat.  But I'd have loved to investigate a tomb world, or a dead Craftworld, or even have a precision strike against a warboss.  The game was sorely lacking in the other races.  A simple template for Eldar, Necrons, Ork, etc. could have helped players scratch the itch if they wanted to be one of those types.

You can't put every possible thing in the 40k universe in the corebook of a game.  There's just too much 40k fluff.  Putting in those rules (and it would have also required careers for them) would have taken up a significant chunk of the book and they would have to cut something else to fit it.  There was a lot of flavor text and description but I think that sort of thing is important to someone coming to the game who doesn't know the tabletop fluff like we do.  Really doing the Eldar with proper rules for them would have taken up at least as much space as the existing character creation rules for something that is, at best, marginal to the game.

Quote from: Crüesader;917555I'd say Dark Heresy felt more 'incomplete' because it was jam-packed with fluff, and a lot of the more useful stuff was in another book.  IMHO, it would have been wiser to have a core book that focused less on 'Heretics' and more space for the threats that the Ordo Xenos faces.  Even then, Deathwatch sorely lacks usable stuff for most 'Known' Xenos races- and hell, they didn't even have Blackshields or half of the First Founding Chapters as an option in the core book.

For someone new to the setting, that stuff is crucial for understanding the setting and the feel the game was going for.  You can only fit so much in a core book and there are a lot of chapters with significant rules required for each one.  They put in some of the more popular ones core book.  I assume the others were planned for expansions but it seems like the line didn't do very well so we didn't get many of those.  The game is perfectly playable as is though.  There are several chapter options including the most popular ones from the tabletop and rules for enemies.  There aren't rules for every possible enemy but that's a lot to ask from a core book considering how big the 40k universe is now.

Quote from: Crüesader;917555I mean, I didn't do much with the Deathwatch book, but I've got the Dark Heresy book and I'm pretty sure I can rattle off what isn't in the book.  Want to investigate a Necron Tomb and snag yourself one of those cool Xenophase blades?  Nope.  Want to do a covert raid on a Homonculi's lab in Comorragh?  Nope.  Want to go toe-to-toe with an Ork Weirdboy?  Nope.  Want to gunfight a Tau battlesuit?  Nope.  Want to extract soulgems from a dead Eldar Craftworld?  Nope. Hell, I'm not even sure they had fucking Genestealers.  They probably did, but it doesn't stand out.

There were enemies to fight.  Every enemy wasn't in there but that's just not practical now.  How many pages would fleshed out rules for all of those races take up?

Quote from: Crüesader;917629Well, I'd say in any other company that might not be an awful idea- except ULTRAMARINES would be 99% of the options.  Sorry, the Codex Astartes is a shit-awful idea and Rawbutt Girlyman is less 'tactical genius', more 'predictable doctrine-jockey'.  

I'd say having some cheap-ass pre-painted versions of softer plastic for the player with less time might not be too awful, as long as that's not what the line is limited to.

I actually think this is where something like the D&D 4'th ed attempts at making collectable miniatures would have worked better, with a focus on Rogue traders, Dark Heresy(Inquisitors and their retinues) and possibly Kill Teams.

Quote from: Crüesader;917629That's fine.  The only issue I have is that in some roleplaying environments online, there are 'furry people' that say "Hey, I respect this setting.  Would it be fine if my anthromorphic canine was a genetically engineered hybrid, a spirit entity, or something like that?" Then there' the furry people that are just parading in, as 'Carl the fucking Blue Wolf' and turning it into a degenerate yiffpile, then get pissed off because you want zero interaction with them.  I genuinely saw one furry person compare ignoring furries to being a Jew in the Holocaust.  I'm not joking.

Ugh, to be honest, i'd guess those were Therianthropes or therian wannabees rather than Furry-fans, and yes, sometimes they(or we) might get .... overboard in actual or seeming entitlement.
I'm a bit sorry for that.

Quote from: yosemitemike;917634You can't put every possible thing in the 40k universe in the corebook of a game.  There's just too much 40k fluff.  Putting in those rules (and it would have also required careers for them) would have taken up a significant chunk of the book and they would have to cut something else to fit it.  There was a lot of flavor text and description but I think that sort of thing is important to someone coming to the game who doesn't know the tabletop fluff like we do.  Really doing the Eldar with proper rules for them would have taken up at least as much space as the existing character creation rules for something that is, at best, marginal to the game.

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There were enemies to fight.  Every enemy wasn't in there but that's just not practical now.  How many pages would fleshed out rules for all of those races take up?

Isn't the important thing here what is valid for the game and not?
What is the trade-off?
Rogue Trader should have had some Eldar, as should Dark Heresy.
Just limit them to very specific roles, but give at least some basics.
The other books might not have needed them as PCs, but they sure were required as Enemies, in most of their basic roles on the battlefield.
As often before, I don't have those games myself, but i'm never-the-less surprised to hear that those enemies seem to have been absent?

Quote from: Catelf;917637Isn't the important thing here what is valid for the game and not?
What is the trade-off?
Rogue Trader should have had some Eldar, as should Dark Heresy.
Just limit them to very specific roles, but give at least some basics.
The other books might not have needed them as PCs, but they sure were required as Enemies, in most of their basic roles on the battlefield.
As often before, I don't have those games myself, but i'm never-the-less surprised to hear that those enemies seem to have been absent?

Valid for the game?  What does that even mean?  What is the trade-off?  Isn't it obvious?  The rule book can only have so much in it.  To add something, you have to take something out.  It can't expand indefinitely.  It was already a pretty big and expensive book.  The way character creation and advancement work in that system means that even a few careers and associated options and gear would take up a significant number of pages.    

Should have had them?  Why?  Why should Dark Heresy have had them?  What should have been cut out to give half baked Eldar rules?  Would people have been satisfied with that or would they have complained that the Eldar rules weren't fleshed out enough and didn't have proper careers or enough options to support different character concepts?  I think we both know gamers enough to know which would have probably happened.  I can see them in a supplement for Rogue Trader but in the core book for Dark Heresy?  They're peripheral at best there.  

They were present as enemies.  They were just not fleshed out enough to be used as PCs.

Alright, forget the main book; Eldar deserved an expansion book to themselves for Rogue Trader. Such a book would have detailed them as both opponents and playable characters, and would have allowed the addition of Eldar player characters to a regular RT game or a full Eldar campaign.

The fact that this book doesn't exist but a bunch of sub-par RT adventure books do is baffling, truly baffling.

EDIT: While I'm at it, I'm of the opinion that a more carefully thought-out and accessible version of Rogue Trader should have been the launch point of the RPG, not Dark Heresy. When most gamers think of galaxy-spanning sci fi, they think planet-hopping freebooters, not pathetic punch-clock space cops getting their brains melted by super satanists in Detroit 3000*. Rogue Trader's premise is also a much easier way to set up interactions with all the wonderful factions the wargame has to offer and veterans expect to tangle with.

* And I say this as a huge fan of Necromunda.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;917646Alright, forget the main book; Eldar deserved

The book needed.  The Eldar deserved.  Speaking of thing that baffle, this language baffles me.  I just don't get why people couch things in these sorts of terms.  You wanted the game to have a book like that.  Why not just say that?  I wanted this and they put out that instead.