All WFRP2/3, Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader... PDFs have been pulled out from drivethru. I knew the line was more or less dead beause there were no new releases, but this is really unexpected. I wonder if GW will license it again.
Quote from: Frey;917255All WFRP2/3, Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader... PDFs have been pulled out from drivethru. I knew the line was more or less dead beause there were no new releases, but this is really unexpected. I wonder if GW will license it again.
It could very well be GW's Legal Daemon Princes at it again.
Hell, I can't even get onto the Drivethru page right now.
What happens in Vegas.... is photographed and put on the internet...
http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2016/06/breaking-gw-licencing-in-vegas.html
It seems very likely to me that Star Wars is so expensive and lucrative that FFG have to devote most of their resources to it. They're like a man running from a very hungry tiger. Everything else seems less important from that perspective.
I don't know what this means for 40k rpgs. A better system perhaps. Or even Black Library taking the rpgs back in hand. Who knows?
I can't say that I'm surprised, given how the license was mostly sitting idle the past few years compared to the rapid pace of releases we originally saw. For me the games saw their peak with WFRP 2; trying to hammer that system into a futuristic setting for the 40k games was a mistake, IMO, and I was not a fan of WFRP 3's changes.
I'd love to see someone try another run at the 40k universe, but after all of the big, expensive hardbacks that FFG produced I don't know how healthy the market is for more 40k games just now.
Quote from: Brand55;917271I'd love to see someone try another run at the 40k universe, but after all of the big, expensive hardbacks that FFG produced I don't know how healthy the market is for more 40k games just now.
It also didn't help that the core rulebooks didn't have all the classes. Hell, in the Black Crusade they didn't even have Alpha Legion. You cannot sit here and tell me that one of the founding Chapters with one of the most interesting skillsets was an afterthought. Same idea for Deathwatch- they required another book for Blackshields and most of the First Founding Chapters.
I get that they're a business, but if you look at the games they're practically an incomplete product.
What would be -great- is if they use a core rulebook model with Inquisition, Deathwatch, Guard, Chaos, and Rogue Trader 'specialty' content afterward with a bestiary. It'd be a blast to play cross-game like that and tailor your purchase to what you need, and the Inquisition's Ordo Xenos content could be straight up used by Deathwatch.
Quote from: Crüesader;917274I get that they're a business, but if you look at the games they're practically an incomplete product.
Yeah, they really needed more support for playing Eldar and such.
Quote from: Simlasa;917275Yeah, they really needed more support for playing Eldar and such.
Having basic racial templates in the core book? That'd be great. Astartes, Mechanicus, Human, Eldar, Tau, Ork, even Necron races playable would be sick. Just do what Pathfinder's core books did.
You'd basically have the formula for turning your group into a kill-team and doing any sort of adventure you want. You'd have race-specific classes in most cases, but I could see a well-organized multi-group campaign with several different groups out to take on a different threat.
Quote from: Crüesader;917274What would be -great- is if they use a core rulebook model with Inquisition, Deathwatch, Guard, Chaos, and Rogue Trader 'specialty' content afterward with a bestiary. It'd be a blast to play cross-game like that and tailor your purchase to what you need, and the Inquisition's Ordo Xenos content could be straight up used by Deathwatch.
Yeah, I think something like that is sorely needed in 40k's case. Have a single book for the rules that everyone needs then break it down with individual expansions for those that want to play Guard or Space Marines or whatever. A simpler system that isn't so wonky would probably help a lot, too. Then the players could stop arguing about full-auto fire or how squad mode is supposed to work and move on to important stuff like killing heretics.
Oh, and for those interested miniaturemarket.com was still running a bunch of Warhammer roleplaying books on clearance last I checked, in case anyone is wanting to finish out their collections before the books disappear from circulation.
Just trying to figure out a way to convert the stat lines and rules from the tabletop wargame would be a great way to do things. If you've got the Codex, you could put in any of your units. Use the models for them, too.
I dunno when stuff is released, but I recently picked up a new (for me) DH2 book. I think it was an adventure, but I'm too lazty to go check...
I read somewhere that GW is really uncomfortable and reluctant about their RPGs allowing non-human player characters. Like it's an actual management policy, not just the fluff of the game. Has anyone heard about this and know why?
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;917302I read somewhere that GW is really uncomfortable and reluctant about their RPGs allowing non-human player characters. Like it's an actual management policy, not just the fluff of the game. Has anyone heard about this and know why?
Because they are filthy xenos and deserve nothing short of the fury of the God-Emperor?
I'm kidding. Geedubs' management has some really weird shit going on. Like, rumor has it that they've had the molds and even boxed sets of new Sisters of Battle, but there's some kind of weird legal issue holding them up. I mean, they tried to trademark shit like 'Imperial Guard' and 'Space Marines' a while back. Their creative people that do all the writing and designing get steamrolled by these guys, they aren't the same folks.
[video=youtube;_zSxQnZ3TM8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zSxQnZ3TM8[/youtube]
I mean, these guys are sitting on a shit ton of IP's and they're just now getting back toward releasing them.
Quote from: Crüesader;917306I mean, they tried to trademark shit like 'Imperial Guard' and 'Space Marines' a while back.
I remember that. They very quietly went after some nobody furry writer's sci-fi story and tried to use it as a precedent case to legally secure the term space marine. They didn't count on the furry actually fighting back AND getting in touch with various big shot writers or their estates to present a unified front.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;917302I read somewhere that GW is really uncomfortable and reluctant about their RPGs allowing non-human player characters.
I've heard some fanboys claim something along those lines... there used to be a guy on here, Blackhand, who's head would explode if you dared mention playing xenos in the RPGs. He had reasons...
It doesn't really figure to me, since you can play them in the wargames, the videogames... and the only 40K first person shooter I know of, Fire Warrior, had a Tau as the protagonist.
one of the IRC channels I used to frequent had a young woman who would complain about the lack of catgirls in the setting.
She would get REALLY upset when I suggested they be chaos mutants or something.
Quote from: remial;917337one of the IRC channels I used to frequent had a young woman who would complain about the lack of catgirls in the setting.
She would get REALLY upset when I suggested they be chaos mutants or something.
[video=youtube;iUuvHPr4BGk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUuvHPr4BGk[/youtube]
No, really furry people sometimes have this irrational sense of entitlement.
Cruesader that was epic.
Quote from: Snowman0147;917364Cruesader that was epic.
Both of them.
The new CEO of GW seems to be trying to reverse a lot of the pants-on-head-stupid decisions of the past (Investors: "You mean we can't run a non-utility/non-monopoly company as if it were one?" Everyone else ever: "No, no you can't. You fucking morons."). I was wondering if this was going to happen this year, they stopped making new board game and LCG expansions for the Warhammer lines a while ago, and that's the REAL bread and butter of FFG. Hopefully, whoever gets the line doesn't piecemeal things out. Hell, maybe they'll hire someone to do an in-house RPG.
Quote from: Michael Gray;917407The new CEO of GW seems to be trying to reverse a lot of the pants-on-head-stupid decisions of the past (Investors: "You mean we can't run a non-utility/non-monopoly company as if it were one?" Everyone else ever: "No, no you can't. You fucking morons.") I was wondering if this was going to happen this year, they stopped making new board game and LCG expansions for the Warhammer lines a while ago, and that's the REAL bread and butter of FFG. Hopefully, whoever gets the line doesn't piecemeal things out. Hell, maybe they'll hire someone to do an in-house RPG.
I would like that, but the rumor has it that 8th edition is coming. I'm not sure how they're going to go about that, but hopefully it doesn't cause too much of an issue. I think they're really focused on trying to bring a lot of new players in right now (DoW 3 helps). When that happens, you might see the game drop.
With the announcement of Runewars Miniature Game at GenCon (https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2016/8/5/runewars-the-miniatures-game/), one can only speculate if this was a planned move. As we all know, Fantasy Flight Games stopped producing products (http://www.orderofgamers.com/wfrp-3rd-edition-is-dead-long-live-wfrp/) for their WFRP Third Edition line sometime ago. This leaves open a question of whether or not Games Workshop plans to relicense Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (http://grimandperilous.com) – specifically the fan-favorite Old World – to another company.
Check out this link over at EnWorld: http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?3751-Who-Will-Pick-Up-The-Warhammer-Licenses-Next#.V87JJZMrJMZ (http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?3751-Who-Will-Pick-Up-The-Warhammer-Licenses-Next#.V87JJZMrJMZ)
Your not-so-stealth marketing is becoming tiresome. Yes, we know you do that WFRP rip-off. Enough already.
Edit: In case people don't know, this is a personal opinion, not board 'policy'. We have very few of those!.
Fuck. So much for support of FFG's Warhammer games.
Quote from: Rincewind1;917423Fuck. So much for support of FFG's Warhammer games.
I strongly suspect the Old World is simply dead, and GW has no plans to revive it anytime soon. My gut tells me they thought the bright/shiny/newness of Age of Sigmar would bring new players, but made a critical marketing error by uncoupling the fan-favorite Old World from their lines. The oldschool fan base was seemingly not so pleased with it, either. Reading the forums over at Bell of Lost Souls is very telling of how the community felt about Age of Sigmar. Simply a mess all around.
Like WotC with Dungeons & Dragons 5E though, I strongly suspect that lashback from their fans will urge them back to their roots in the Old World. Age of Sigmar has been derided by both old players and new since inception; it's an absolute mess.
Quote from: Rincewind1;917423Fuck. So much for support of FFG's Warhammer games.
At this point you'd have to wonder who would want the licenses? Restrictions preventing the type of game the market wants (a universal 40k RPG), restricted from really intersecting with the existing IP (No Dante in RPG terms), chance of being pulled on a fickle whim is high, with multiple historical precedents, really the only thing going for GW as a licensor is that it seems their approval process can support a high volume of releases.
So buy the license, crank out as much overpriced crap as you can possibly produce before the axe seems to be the only way to make money as an RPG licensee going forward. We all know by now that putting out quality product and having good sales isn't going to mean anything to GW.
Someone at GW, at some point, has to realize that the setting has to drive the IP, not mini designs. They did it right with the Horus Heresy. The worldbuilding and setting as displayed in the novels is driving the 30k version of the game.
The problem is with Fantasy and 40k there is no real setting structure to hang the evolution of minis off of. 40k is stuck in perpetual stasis, akin to a superhero brand feeding us the same origin story a hundred times with a different costume. Fantasy could have gone other places than "Next Major Chaos Incursion From The North Pole", they just didn't until Nagash, which was part of killing off the Old World. The New World, Return of the Slaan, The East, there's lots of places the fiction of the Old World could have gone, opening up more mini options with it, but with the setting being moved solely by new sculpts the worldbuilding is limited to things like "Ogres are their own Army now and have Mongol mustaches so you have to use the new ones in Tournaments."
Age of Sigmar seemed to me to be a "Jump the Shark" move.
Quote from: CRKrueger;917431Someone at GW, at some point, has to realize that the setting has to drive the IP, not mini designs. They did it right with the Horus Heresy. The worldbuilding and setting as displayed in the novels is driving the 30k version of the game.
The problem is with Fantasy and 40k there is no real setting structure to hang the evolution of minis off of. 40k is stuck in perpetual stasis, akin to a superhero brand feeding us the same origin story a hundred times with a different costume. Fantasy could have gone other places than "Next Major Chaos Incursion From The North Pole", they just didn't until Nagash, which was part of killing off the Old World. The New World, Return of the Slaan, The East, there's lots of places the fiction of the Old World could have gone, opening up more mini options with it, but with the setting being moved solely by new sculpts the worldbuilding is limited to things like "Ogres are their own Army now and have Mongol mustaches so you have to use the new ones in Tournaments."
Age of Sigmar seemed to me to be a "Jump the Shark" move.
I can kind of see the impetus behind AoS. Take the lower selling of the two lines and make it more like the best selling line (round bases, no set formation, the melee combat is pretty much the same as 40K what with 'piling in') and it IS a fun game for what it is. But I LIKED my fantasy pseudo pike-and-shot game. I'm not sure it actually failed to bring new blood, either. For every person I see saying "WORST THING EVAR!!! I WILL NEVAR PLAY IT!!!", I see one person saying "Well, it's not WHFB, but I can still use all my models with it because screw the tourney scene." and another saying "Hello fellow youths, what's this fancy new Warhammer I hear people talking about?" I know, anecdote...data etc., etc.
They are also slowly making it more meaty too. I feel like the original launch should have waited for all the shit that's in place now vis-a-vis point buying army lists and campaigns and people might not have freaked out as much. That's just my opinion though, I could be wrong.
Quote from: Crüesader;917274I get that they're a business, but if you look at the games they're practically an incomplete product.
The books are already pretty big. There probably just wasn't enough space for everything they might want to put in. They aren't really incomplete products. Everything you need to play is there. They just don't have everything they might have but you can only fit so much into one book.
Quote from: Simlasa;917275Yeah, they really needed more support for playing Eldar and such.
You
wanted more support for playing Eldar anyway. Dark Heresy and Deathwatch hardly
needed that.
Quote from: yosemitemike;917502You wanted more support for playing Eldar anyway. Dark Heresy and Deathwatch hardly needed that.
They
needed it if they were to be considered complete... but they're not complete, never intended to be complete... which is one of the major complaints I hear against them... that folks wanted a 40K RPG and got bits and pieces scattered around that instead.
Quote from: Simlasa;917511They needed it if they were to be considered complete... but they're not complete, never intended to be complete... which is one of the major complaints I hear against them... that folks wanted a 40K RPG and got bits and pieces scattered around that instead.
Explain why a game where you play members of the Imperial Inquisition, including possibly Ordo Xenos inquisitors,
needed rules for playing Eldar. Explain why a game where you play Space Marines who are specially trained to kill xenos
needs rules for Eldar PCs. These games obviously do not
need such rules at all. Such rules make some sense for Rogue Trader but they are hardly
needed even there. None of the games
need such rules to be complete.
"to be considered complete"? Come on. Let's not do the passive voice thing. We are talking about what you felt it should have not what it needed.
I never really liked the fact that FFG made the design decision to make Dark Heresy, Only War and other WH 40k properties incompatible with one another. Although they do use the same basic D100 rules, it seemed all very haphazard and inconsiderate to their fans.
Given how players of the wargame get fiercely attached to their chosen factions, the RPG line really, really should have done more to provide proper support supplements or full blown games for the most approachable non-human factions (eldar, tau, orks). The frustration was especially palpable among eldar players in my circles.
Quote from: yosemitemike;917514Explain why a game where you play members of the Imperial Inquisition, including possibly Ordo Xenos inquisitors, needed rules for playing Eldar. Explain why a game where you play Space Marines who are specially trained to kill xenos needs rules for Eldar PCs. These games obviously do not need such rules at all. Such rules make some sense for Rogue Trader but they are hardly needed even there. None of the games need such rules to be complete.
"to be considered complete"? Come on. Let's not do the passive voice thing. We are talking about what you felt it should have not what it needed.
Sure: Members of the Inquisition and Rogue Trader captains alike have long been depicted with having xenos members of their retinues... something that has a lot more precedent than the existance of bound demonhosts, for example. Yet somehow the idea of playing a space elf... which have a long and convoluted history of working with (and against) humanity in the setting is somehow not permitted, while demonhosts... a new and, as far as I can tell not terribly popular character concept (Yes, yes... I'm stretching a bit here... whatever)... is far 'better'.
Its dumb regarding canon. Its dumb regarding marketing. People really like to play space elves. I've had players get excited to play a 40k RPG (DH or RT... only two I've used), only to back out when they found no space elves. So much so that I adapted the scant available rules just about the time I gave up on the rule set as being a bit to clunky...
Quote from: Crüesader;917410I would like that, but the rumor has it that 8th edition is coming. I'm not sure how they're going to go about that, but hopefully it doesn't cause too much of an issue. I think they're really focused on trying to bring a lot of new players in right now (DoW 3 helps). When that happens, you might see the game drop.
Well its no surprise to me that they are trying so hard to get new people in as my under standing was that they where for several years now selling people an army for 500$ and caring nothing about retention and at GW pricing i have a funny feeling that people are getting sick of the shit.
And i say this as a guy who dont play 40k for those reasons 40k pricing being a big one.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;917522Given how players of the wargame get fiercely attached to their chosen factions, the RPG line really, really should have done more to provide proper support supplements or full blown games for the most approachable non-human factions (eldar, tau, orks). The frustration was especially palpable among eldar players in my circles.
The games were all focused on the Imperium though. Even Black Crusade focused on character that had come from the Imperium and the Imperium as an enemy. The only one that had any reason to include rules for Eldar PCs was Rogue Trader and it was peripheral to that one at best.
Quote from: Spike;917532(Yes, yes... I'm stretching a bit here
You are stretching way more than a bit. That was always portrayed as an out there unapproved thing that only a few radical Inquisitors got away with. It makes some sense in Rogue Trader but you can only put so much stuff in a book and the spaceship rules too up a lot of space.
Quote from: Spike;917532Its dumb regarding canon. Its dumb regarding marketing. People really like to play space elves. I've had players get excited to play a 40k RPG (DH or RT... only two I've used), only to back out when they found no space elves. So much so that I adapted the scant available rules just about the time I gave up on the rule set as being a bit to clunky...
There are a few very vocal people who were mad about not being able to play space elves. You happen to know some of them. None of that means that there was a large part of the customer base that was yearning for that. Not having rules for Eldar does not make a game about inquisitorial acolytes incomplete. Such a game does not need such rule even if some people wanted to see them. It might have been shoehorned in but it's hardly incomplete without it.
The game did not give some people what they wanted. That's fine. It's a perfectly legitimate reason for not liking or buying a game. It doesn't make the game incomplete though. It doesn't mean the game needed those things. It just means the player wanted them.
Are you suggesting that having a pet demon is more acceptable to the Inquisition than having a pet space elf?
You are, aren't you!
I'll point out that FFG put out rules for having pet orks and kroot over having rules for playable space elves. In terms of canon the Orks are far more intolerable as xenos races, and in terms of the fan base, space lizard birds are far more marginal than the pretty aliens.
To be blunt, I'm not even much of a fan of space elves, and it still felt like a deliberate slap in the face from the game designers.
Quote from: yosemitemike;917540The games were all focused on the Imperium though. Even Black Crusade focused on character that had come from the Imperium and the Imperium as an enemy. The only one that had any reason to include rules for Eldar PCs was Rogue Trader and it was peripheral to that one at best.
Actually, what disappointed me more than anything with Deathwatch and Dark Heresy- There wasn't much to work with in terms of 'known' Xenos races. Sure, some of the lesser-known ones are very cool- no one says a species has to be a military threat in order to be a threat. But I'd have loved to investigate a tomb world, or a dead Craftworld, or even have a precision strike against a warboss. The game was sorely lacking in the other races. A simple template for Eldar, Necrons, Ork, etc. could have helped players scratch the itch if they wanted to be one of those types.
Quote from: yosemitemike;917540The game did not give some people what they wanted. That's fine. It's a perfectly legitimate reason for not liking or buying a game. It doesn't make the game incomplete though. It doesn't mean the game needed those things. It just means the player wanted them.
I'd say Dark Heresy felt more 'incomplete' because it was jam-packed with fluff, and a lot of the more useful stuff was in another book. IMHO, it would have been wiser to have a core book that focused less on 'Heretics' and more space for the threats that the Ordo Xenos faces. Even then, Deathwatch sorely lacks usable stuff for most 'Known' Xenos races- and hell, they didn't even have Blackshields or half of the First Founding Chapters as an option in the core book.
I mean, I didn't do much with the Deathwatch book, but I've got the Dark Heresy book and I'm pretty sure I can rattle off what isn't in the book. Want to investigate a Necron Tomb and snag yourself one of those cool Xenophase blades?
Nope. Want to do a covert raid on a Homonculi's lab in Comorragh?
Nope. Want to go toe-to-toe with an Ork Weirdboy?
Nope. Want to gunfight a Tau battlesuit?
Nope. Want to extract soulgems from a dead Eldar Craftworld?
Nope. Hell, I'm not even sure they had fucking
Genestealers. They probably did, but it doesn't stand out.
Kind of why I hope that whoever gets ahold of the IP next, they're smarter about it. A formula for converting the wargame stat lines and rules over to an RPG PC/NPC would be great.
I mean, come on- you know you wanna fight this:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]353[/ATTACH]
And this:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]354[/ATTACH]
And probably also this:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]352[/ATTACH]
Yeah, that's an Ork Weirdboy dressed like a Farseer.
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;917517I never really liked the fact that FFG made the design decision to make Dark Heresy, Only War and other WH 40k properties incompatible with one another. Although they do use the same basic D100 rules, it seemed all very haphazard and inconsiderate to their fans.
I fully agree. At least they learned from that mistake when doing SW.
Oh give it time. I'm sure that Modiphius will get the rights so that they can add another feather to their cap right next to Star Trek, Conan and Mutant Chronicles. 2d20 FOREVAAAAAAHHHH
I'd love to see a new edition of Mordheim, assuming they didn't fuck it up. But more than anything, I hope they fix the prices. Good lord, I shouldn't be paying 50 bucks for a tank or a Tau battlesuit. And the Guard, man, they cut the model size in the troops box by half, tried to charge us the same and STILL haven't given it the options found in the Codex.
As opposed to Codex : Fursona, which has one of the best troop boxes in the entire game line.
This is blasphemy, and I realise some GW elitists are going to want to castrate me with a rusty band saw and force-fed me Drano for saying this... but I think they should take one of the Warhammer universe "Sub-games" (Mordheim, Necromunda, that inquisitor one) and re-do it with pre-painted collectible plastic figures. They would reach a whole new audience. This is anecdotal, but I meet a LOT of people who lovingly look at GW art or figures but never buy the games because "I don't have the time/money to commit" (I live in an economically depressed rust belt area where many if not most people work two jobs, so I believe them) or "...But I don't paint". A Warhammer-compatible game with a price point comparable to HeroClix that somebody could just buy and play out of the box would do quite well here, I trow.
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;917565I think they should take one of the Warhammer universe "Sub-games" (Mordheim, Necromunda, that inquisitor one) and re-do it with pre-painted collectible plastic figures.
What the...?
[ATTACH=CONFIG]355[/ATTACH]
Why bother with pre-painted minis? Why not go straight to the next step and just make videos of attractive, witty 'celebrities' playing the games and sell tickets to watch?
"I'd never find the time to sit down and actually play a game so I appreciate it that I can watch a really good one of talented people, with nicely painted figs and great terrain, while I'm eating dinner or beating my kids."
Aren't all hobbies becoming spectator sports these days?
GW got out of making fun, enjoyable things like...over a decade ago. The Codex death-march (which is a cool sounding title unto it's own but I digress), the edition death-march, goddamn ridiculous shit like their "hobby tools" that only a seriously damaged person would even consider, paints that dry out if you leave the cap open for a nanosecond (or dry out in 3 weeks regardless, compare this with the Citadel paints from 1992 that I still have that are still completely fresh), ruining the LotR line, Finecast - it's all shit, all of what they do is shit. They're a bad company run by people who piss on their die hard customers and tell them it's "Codex Yellow" rain and charge them extra for it.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;917583compare this with the Citadel paints from 1992 that I still have that are still completely fresh)
Yeah, still got mine from the 90's. I'm not sure about 'completely fresh'... but I live in the desert, so I did add a bit of stuff to mine to keep them going... and they're fine (and still pretty much available from Coat D'arms who made them back in the day).
Quote from: Simlasa;917581Why bother with pre-painted minis? Why not go straight to the next step and just make videos of attractive, witty 'celebrities' playing the games and sell tickets to watch?
"I'd never find the time to sit down and actually play a game so I appreciate it that I can watch a really good one of talented people, with nicely painted figs and great terrain, while I'm eating dinner or beating my kids."
Aren't all hobbies becoming spectator sports these days?
Oh, the people I'm speaking of play games, they just play games that don't take up a lot of space or have a lot of prep time.
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;917593Oh, the people I'm speaking of play games, they just play games that don't take up a lot of space or have a lot of prep time.
Oh, I'm mostly just making light of all the people I see pushing their RPG videos... or the shouty guys I see filming their games of 40K.
I've been mostly into smaller skirmish games myself these days... Goalsystem stuff and 5150... Song of Blades and Heroes... but I AM building a new wargames table, so huge stompy armies will be seeing action soon enough.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;917583They're a bad company run by people who piss on their die hard customers and tell them it's "Codex Yellow" rain and charge them extra for it.
Hahaha ok, that one was pretty good.
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;917565This is blasphemy, and I realise some GW elitists are going to want to castrate me with a rusty band saw and force-fed me Drano for saying this... but I think they should take one of the Warhammer universe "Sub-games" (Mordheim, Necromunda, that inquisitor one) and re-do it with pre-painted collectible plastic figures. They would reach a whole new audience.
You might look up the demise of Rackham to see why that would be a horrible idea
Not the whole line, because that wouldn't be Warhammer anymore and would make no one happy and would be suicide. Just one of the companion games.
Yeah, Rackham crashed because they changed the rule system (trying to get people playing with larger forces) AND stopped making any of the fabulous metal figures, which are what drew most everyone to the game in the first place.
If the pre-paints had been a sideline it might not have gone down the way it did... though I think they were over-extended by that point anyway.
Also didn't help that Jean Bey (main Rackham guy) was such an arrogant fuck.
Khorne damn us all. Being a Warhammer fan is so fucked up.
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;917565but I think they should take one of the Warhammer universe "Sub-games" (Mordheim, Necromunda, that inquisitor one) and re-do it with pre-painted collectible plastic figures. They would reach a whole new audience.
Fully agreed. Something like Kill Teams - 10 figs per side, terrain, 1 hour or less of play. Necromunda would a great option for this.
Quote from: remial;917337one of the IRC channels I used to frequent had a young woman who would complain about the lack of catgirls in the setting.
She would get REALLY upset when I suggested they be chaos mutants or something.
That sounds like it could have been me, except I have no idea what an "IRC channel" is.
XD
Quote from: Crüesader;917356No, really furry people sometimes have this irrational sense of entitlement.
If it were me, it was just a desire for some dreamy wish-fulfilment in a world I thought were awesome at the time.
(Not "entitlement".)
Don't worry, if it were me i'm not pestering you with ideas like that any longer, I created my own game world .... that no one seems to care for .... :(
Quote from: Just Another Snake Cult;917565.... I think they should take one of the Warhammer universe "Sub-games" (Mordheim, Necromunda, that inquisitor one) and re-do it with pre-painted collectible plastic figures. They would reach a whole new audience...
Well, I'd say in any other company that might not be an awful idea- except ULTRAMARINES would be 99% of the options. Sorry, the Codex Astartes is a shit-awful idea and Rawbutt Girlyman is less 'tactical genius', more 'predictable doctrine-jockey'.
I'd say having some cheap-ass pre-painted versions of softer plastic for the player with less time might not be too awful, as long as that's not what the line is limited to.
Quote from: Catelf;917622If it were me, it was just a desire for some dreamy wish-fulfilment in a world I thought were awesome at the time.
(Not "entitlement".)
Don't worry, if it were me i'm not pestering you with ideas like that any longer, I created my own game world .... that no one seems to care for .... :(
That's fine. The only issue I have is that in some roleplaying environments online, there are 'furry people' that say
"Hey, I respect this setting. Would it be fine if my anthromorphic canine was a genetically engineered hybrid, a spirit entity, or something like that?" Then there' the furry people that are just parading in, as 'Carl the fucking Blue Wolf' and turning it into a degenerate yiffpile, then get pissed off because you want zero interaction with them. I genuinely saw one furry person compare ignoring furries to being a Jew in the Holocaust. I'm not joking.
Quote from: Crüesader;917555Actually, what disappointed me more than anything with Deathwatch and Dark Heresy- There wasn't much to work with in terms of 'known' Xenos races. Sure, some of the lesser-known ones are very cool- no one says a species has to be a military threat in order to be a threat. But I'd have loved to investigate a tomb world, or a dead Craftworld, or even have a precision strike against a warboss. The game was sorely lacking in the other races. A simple template for Eldar, Necrons, Ork, etc. could have helped players scratch the itch if they wanted to be one of those types.
You can't put every possible thing in the 40k universe in the corebook of a game. There's just too much 40k fluff. Putting in those rules (and it would have also required careers for them) would have taken up a significant chunk of the book and they would have to cut something else to fit it. There was a lot of flavor text and description but I think that sort of thing is important to someone coming to the game who doesn't know the tabletop fluff like we do. Really doing the Eldar with proper rules for them would have taken up at least as much space as the existing character creation rules for something that is, at best, marginal to the game.
Quote from: Crüesader;917555I'd say Dark Heresy felt more 'incomplete' because it was jam-packed with fluff, and a lot of the more useful stuff was in another book. IMHO, it would have been wiser to have a core book that focused less on 'Heretics' and more space for the threats that the Ordo Xenos faces. Even then, Deathwatch sorely lacks usable stuff for most 'Known' Xenos races- and hell, they didn't even have Blackshields or half of the First Founding Chapters as an option in the core book.
For someone new to the setting, that stuff is crucial for understanding the setting and the feel the game was going for. You can only fit so much in a core book and there are a lot of chapters with significant rules required for each one. They put in some of the more popular ones core book. I assume the others were planned for expansions but it seems like the line didn't do very well so we didn't get many of those. The game is perfectly playable as is though. There are several chapter options including the most popular ones from the tabletop and rules for enemies. There aren't rules for every possible enemy but that's a lot to ask from a core book considering how big the 40k universe is now.
Quote from: Crüesader;917555I mean, I didn't do much with the Deathwatch book, but I've got the Dark Heresy book and I'm pretty sure I can rattle off what isn't in the book. Want to investigate a Necron Tomb and snag yourself one of those cool Xenophase blades? Nope. Want to do a covert raid on a Homonculi's lab in Comorragh? Nope. Want to go toe-to-toe with an Ork Weirdboy? Nope. Want to gunfight a Tau battlesuit? Nope. Want to extract soulgems from a dead Eldar Craftworld? Nope. Hell, I'm not even sure they had fucking Genestealers. They probably did, but it doesn't stand out.
There were enemies to fight. Every enemy wasn't in there but that's just not practical now. How many pages would fleshed out rules for all of those races take up?
Quote from: Crüesader;917629Well, I'd say in any other company that might not be an awful idea- except ULTRAMARINES would be 99% of the options. Sorry, the Codex Astartes is a shit-awful idea and Rawbutt Girlyman is less 'tactical genius', more 'predictable doctrine-jockey'.
I'd say having some cheap-ass pre-painted versions of softer plastic for the player with less time might not be too awful, as long as that's not what the line is limited to.
I actually think this is where something like the D&D 4'th ed attempts at making collectable miniatures would have worked better, with a focus on Rogue traders, Dark Heresy(Inquisitors and their retinues) and possibly Kill Teams.
Quote from: Crüesader;917629That's fine. The only issue I have is that in some roleplaying environments online, there are 'furry people' that say "Hey, I respect this setting. Would it be fine if my anthromorphic canine was a genetically engineered hybrid, a spirit entity, or something like that?" Then there' the furry people that are just parading in, as 'Carl the fucking Blue Wolf' and turning it into a degenerate yiffpile, then get pissed off because you want zero interaction with them. I genuinely saw one furry person compare ignoring furries to being a Jew in the Holocaust. I'm not joking.
Ugh, to be honest, i'd guess those were Therianthropes or therian wannabees rather than Furry-fans, and yes, sometimes they(or we) might get .... overboard in actual or seeming entitlement.
I'm a bit sorry for that.
Quote from: yosemitemike;917634You can't put every possible thing in the 40k universe in the corebook of a game. There's just too much 40k fluff. Putting in those rules (and it would have also required careers for them) would have taken up a significant chunk of the book and they would have to cut something else to fit it. There was a lot of flavor text and description but I think that sort of thing is important to someone coming to the game who doesn't know the tabletop fluff like we do. Really doing the Eldar with proper rules for them would have taken up at least as much space as the existing character creation rules for something that is, at best, marginal to the game.
---------------------------------------------------------
There were enemies to fight. Every enemy wasn't in there but that's just not practical now. How many pages would fleshed out rules for all of those races take up?
Isn't the important thing here what is valid for the game and not?
What is the trade-off?
Rogue Trader should have had some Eldar, as should Dark Heresy.
Just limit them to very specific roles, but give at least some basics.
The other books might not have needed them as PCs, but they sure were required as Enemies, in most of their basic roles on the battlefield.
As often before, I don't have those games myself, but i'm never-the-less surprised to hear that those enemies seem to have been absent?
Quote from: Catelf;917637Isn't the important thing here what is valid for the game and not?
What is the trade-off?
Rogue Trader should have had some Eldar, as should Dark Heresy.
Just limit them to very specific roles, but give at least some basics.
The other books might not have needed them as PCs, but they sure were required as Enemies, in most of their basic roles on the battlefield.
As often before, I don't have those games myself, but i'm never-the-less surprised to hear that those enemies seem to have been absent?
Valid for the game? What does that even mean? What is the trade-off? Isn't it obvious? The rule book can only have so much in it. To add something, you have to take something out. It can't expand indefinitely. It was already a pretty big and expensive book. The way character creation and advancement work in that system means that even a few careers and associated options and gear would take up a significant number of pages.
Should have had them? Why? Why should Dark Heresy have had them? What should have been cut out to give half baked Eldar rules? Would people have been satisfied with that or would they have complained that the Eldar rules weren't fleshed out enough and didn't have proper careers or enough options to support different character concepts? I think we both know gamers enough to know which would have probably happened. I can see them in a supplement for Rogue Trader but in the core book for Dark Heresy? They're peripheral at best there.
They were present as enemies. They were just not fleshed out enough to be used as PCs.
Alright, forget the main book; Eldar deserved an expansion book to themselves for Rogue Trader. Such a book would have detailed them as both opponents and playable characters, and would have allowed the addition of Eldar player characters to a regular RT game or a full Eldar campaign.
The fact that this book doesn't exist but a bunch of sub-par RT adventure books do is baffling, truly baffling.
EDIT: While I'm at it, I'm of the opinion that a more carefully thought-out and accessible version of Rogue Trader should have been the launch point of the RPG, not Dark Heresy. When most gamers think of galaxy-spanning sci fi, they think planet-hopping freebooters, not pathetic punch-clock space cops getting their brains melted by super satanists in Detroit 3000*. Rogue Trader's premise is also a much easier way to set up interactions with all the wonderful factions the wargame has to offer and veterans expect to tangle with.
* And I say this as a huge fan of Necromunda.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;917646Alright, forget the main book; Eldar deserved
The book needed. The Eldar deserved. Speaking of thing that baffle, this language baffles me. I just don't get why people couch things in these sorts of terms. You wanted the game to have a book like that. Why not just say that? I wanted this and they put out that instead.
Quote from: yosemitemike;917634You can't put every possible thing in the 40k universe in the corebook of a game. There's just too much 40k fluff. Putting in those rules (and it would have also required careers for them) would have taken up a significant chunk of the book and they would have to cut something else to fit it. There was a lot of flavor text and description but I think that sort of thing is important to someone coming to the game who doesn't know the tabletop fluff like we do. Really doing the Eldar with proper rules for them would have taken up at least as much space as the existing character creation rules for something that is, at best, marginal to the game.
Dude, in Deathwatch- do you have any idea how much space in that book is dedicated to the fucking Jericho reach? An obscene amount, more so than I cared about. A shit-ton of material in the book was not setting fluff, but sub-setting fluff. Something that corralled you into one section of the Galaxy.
Quote from: yosemitemike;917634There were enemies to fight. Every enemy wasn't in there but that's just not practical now. How many pages would fleshed out rules for all of those races take up?
We got Lacrymoles. And Slaugth. Hang on, hear me out dude- I get it that they couldn't cram everything into the book. But there were zero rules for any of the main races. I get that 'to a new player' those things are important, but to anyone remotely familiar with the setting the reaction was like-
wait, what?EDIT: There was some stuff about Tyranids and Tau, but it was by no means expansive. I looked again.
Like, I'm not trying to butt heads with you. I'm not even saying you're 'wrong'. I'm saying the product was 'incomplete' in the sense that yeah, it was functional... but imagine a new Grand Theft Auto game where you can only do stuff in one part of the city and there are no side missions.
I don't believe in saying there's a problem without saying there's a solution. So, Solution:
Make the 40k RPG setting a multiple-book thing.
A Core Rulebook for Astartes, Inquisitorial Agents, Rogue Trader crew, and Guard Specialties. Include all the 'classes', weaponry, and basic rules- sort of like Pathfinder's done with their Core Rulebook.
Secondary book for Xenos/Heretics/Daemons that facilitates either NPC's, Enemies, or even PC's.
Adventures and setting stuff can be in other books altogether.
Quote from: Crüesader;917669Dude, in Deathwatch- do you have any idea how much space in that book is dedicated to the fucking Jericho reach? An obscene amount, more so than I cared about. A shit-ton of material in the book was not setting fluff, but sub-setting fluff. Something that corralled you into one section of the Galaxy.
It's just an area for people to play in. You can't very well cover the whole galaxy. You weren't corralled there but it was the easiest place to start since there was already material to use.
Quote from: Crüesader;917669We got Lacrymoles. And Slaugth. Hang on, hear me out dude- I get it that they couldn't cram everything into the book. But there were zero rules for any of the main races. I get that 'to a new player' those things are important, but to anyone remotely familiar with the setting the reaction was like- wait, what?
They kind of have to assume that people are not familiar with the setting in an RPG book. The sourcebooks added more stuff and eventually Orc Freebooter PCs. I would have started with the better known races as enemies but maybe they just wanted something different.
Quote from: Crüesader;917669Like, I'm not trying to butt heads with you. I'm not even saying you're 'wrong'. I'm saying the product was 'incomplete' in the sense that yeah, it was functional... but imagine a new Grand Theft Auto game where you can only do stuff in one part of the city and there are no side missions.
They just concentrated on one part of the galaxy to give people some place to start. There was mention of other places but there's too much galaxy in 40k to give you any useful information about anything but a small part of it. It's still a pretty big area.
Quote from: Crüesader;917669Make the 40k RPG setting a multiple-book thing.
A Core Rulebook for Astartes, Inquisitorial Agents, Rogue Trader crew, and Guard Specialties. Include all the 'classes', weaponry, and basic rules- sort of like Pathfinder's done with their Core Rulebook.
Secondary book for Xenos/Heretics/Daemons that facilitates either NPC's, Enemies, or even PC's.
Adventures and setting stuff can be in other books altogether.
I think they wanted each core book to be self-contained and usable on its own. I can see that. A lot of people bitch about needing to buy multiple books. You can't please everyone.
TBH I was always fairly lukewarm on the the 40K stuff, as it always felt a bit too stylised and over serious to me - but losing WFRP is a shame. It carried an iconic and fairly unique career system, and a now long-out of-print Enemy Within Campaign that may be lost to gamers for a long time.
Quote from: Spinachcat;917621Khorne damn us all. Being a Warhammer fan is so fucked up.
Fully agreed. Something like Kill Teams - 10 figs per side, terrain, 1 hour or less of play. Necromunda would a great option for this.
Speaking as someone who doesn't play Warhammer but _might_ play Warhammer, this isn't a bad idea. Even offering the castings plain, with one side cast in one color and the other another color, would open up options for new players a lot.
For all the people saying they need a Kill Team-esque game...you mean like this?
http://www.spikeybits.com/2016/09/40ks-kill-team-game-first-look.html
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Warhammer-40000-Kill-Team-ENG
Spehss Mareens v. Tau
EDIT: Like I said the new CEO of GeeDubs is considerably less stupid than the last one.
Quote from: Michael Gray;917719For all the people saying they need a Kill Team-esque game...you mean like this?
http://www.spikeybits.com/2016/09/40ks-kill-team-game-first-look.html
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Warhammer-40000-Kill-Team-ENG
Spehss Mareens v. Tau
EDIT: Like I said the new CEO of GeeDubs is considerably less stupid than the last one.
I ordered this and have yet to open it. Honestly, that's a HELL of a bargain.
The squad of Marines is $40. The squad of cuntfaced Xeno filth is $50.
And there's the Kill-Team rules, AND a smaller version of the 40k rulebook.
Brilliant- it's $65
Quote from: yosemitemike;917640Valid for the game? What does that even mean? What is the trade-off? Isn't it obvious? The rule book can only have so much in it. To add something, you have to take something out. It can't expand indefinitely. It was already a pretty big and expensive book. The way character creation and advancement work in that system means that even a few careers and associated options and gear would take up a significant number of pages.
Should have had them? Why? Why should Dark Heresy have had them? What should have been cut out to give half baked Eldar rules? Would people have been satisfied with that or would they have complained that the Eldar rules weren't fleshed out enough and didn't have proper careers or enough options to support different character concepts? I think we both know gamers enough to know which would have probably happened. I can see them in a supplement for Rogue Trader but in the core book for Dark Heresy? They're peripheral at best there.
They were present as enemies. They were just not fleshed out enough to be used as PCs.
I admit, I did not really understand your point until I read this (I bolded what I considered to be the most important part) :
Quote from: yosemitemike;917680They kind of have to assume that people are not familiar with the setting in an RPG book. The sourcebooks added more stuff and eventually Orc Freebooter PCs. I would have started with the better known races as enemies but maybe they just wanted something different.
It doesn't really matter if a game is wholly successful or not, it is what it is, and calls on "it must have this or that" is unimportant, as long as it works well enough.
Am I right in my assumption?
Anyway, it makes your first question "what does "valid for the game" even mean?" both more important and interesting.
It virtually became more like:
Who did they make the game for?
The games are made for newcomers, quite clearly.
However, with that definition, some were more or less left out, mainly those who knows WH40K already, and wanted to roleplay in that same (or very similar) world.
Because for them, the well-known xenos were indeed missing from those games, and they didn't even get some kid of splatbook for those, from my impression.
Also, a more over-arcing setting description might have been more fitting than detailing one area so much.
Quote from: Catelf;917730It doesn't really matter if a game is wholly successful or not, it is what it is, and calls on "it must have this or that" is unimportant, as long as it works well enough.
Am I right in my assumption?
Not quite. First, no core book for a 40k RPG could be wholly successful to everyone. There will always be thing that it doesn't include that some players would like to have seen. The 40k universe is too big for it to be otherwise. Second, saying that a game "must have that" means that the game has an imperative need or duty to have that thing. What does a game about Inquisitorial acolytes have an imperative need or duty to have? I can think of a few obvious things like rules for making acolytes, the core game system and, if the game is aimed at people new to the universe, enough fluff for people to understand what the setting rules and how it works. Rules for xenos characters that are, at best, peripheral to the premise wouldn't make that list.
Quote from: Catelf;917730Anyway, it makes your first question "what does "valid for the game" even mean?" both more important and interesting.
It virtually became more like:
Who did they make the game for?
The games are made for newcomers, quite clearly.
However, with that definition, some were more or less left out, mainly those who knows WH40K already, and wanted to roleplay in that same (or very similar) world.
Because for them, the well-known xenos were indeed missing from those games, and they didn't even get some kid of splatbook for those, from my impression.
Also, a more over-arcing setting description might have been more fitting than detailing one area so much.
Saying that something is valid for a game simply means that it is justifiable. Someone can justify it. That can mean just about anything since just about anything can be justified with a little creativity. Since it can mean nearly anything it means almost nothing.
As for the new xenos, I suspect that they just wanted to put in something new for the game. The bottom line is that you can't please all of the people all of the time. Put in the same ones from the miniatures game and people complain that there isn't any new material. Put in new ones and people complain that the iconic xenos are missing. Everything can't be put in so something has to give. You just have to pick your poison and know that some people will be unhappy no matter what you do. Even if you put out books for everything, people will complain about having to buy too many books.
If your game line focuses on the Imperium, as the FFG 40k line clearly did, where do xenos splatbooks fall on the list of priorities? It's probably pretty low on the list.
What would have been more fitting depends on what they wanted to do. It's impossible for us to really know that but, judging by what they did, they wanted to give a GM a premade area with enough retail to set games there without a lot of worldbuilding work and some adventures to run there. Presenting a relatively shallow description of the whole setting rather than a more detailed description of that one area would not be fitting at all for that goal. They picked an unexplored area beyond the Segmentum Obscurus which, in the 40k universe, is the equivalent of the wild frontier. This is an obvious sort of place to pick for adventure and allows them to fill it in with new stuff without clashing too much with existing canon. It's more or less a wide open playground for them. Even with everything published, it doesn't begin to completely fill in the Koronus Expanse isn't even close to full detailed. It's a huge area. You don't have to set your game there but it's there for people to use.
Personally, I've always liked the humanocentric approach to Warhammer RPGs.
You're writing a 4OK RPG.
You KNOW there are a lot of folks out there who would like to play Eldar, Tau and other stuff.
Why would you NOT include rules for that except for some fucked up "This is how we want you to play" reasoning?
That right off starts annoying a sizeable chunk of your potential customers.
Not that it's all that hard to come up with your own rules for... anything... but it's a glaring omission no matter what the apologists say. It's a mistake.
Quote from: Simlasa;917818You're writing a 4OK RPG.
You KNOW there are a lot of folks out there who would like to slaughter the shit out of Eldar, Tau and other stuff.
Why would you NOT include rules for that except for some fucked up "This is how we want you to play" reasoning?
That right off starts annoying a sizeable chunk of your potential customers.
I fixed that for you
Quote from: TristramEvans;917807Personally, I've always liked the humanocentric approach to Warhammer RPGs.
I'd legitimately be interested to hear you elaborate on that.
Quote from: Crüesader;917821I fixed that for you
Well, there's those folks as well.
Quote from: Simlasa;917825Well, there's those folks as well.
Yes, we call them 'Loyal' and 'Pious', and 'true servants of the God Emperor'.
But seriously, I get what you're saying. I'd have rather received a toolkit than a standalone, area-specific, limited product.
Quote from: Crüesader;917826I'd have rather received a toolkit than a standalone, area-specific, limited product.
I think I can make a prediction here:
Unless GW divides up its rpg properties on several holders, then the next commercial property based on WH40K that makes a good enough stat converter between the wargame rules and its rpg rules, as well as solid enough rpg rules, of course, will outsell FFG's WH40K-based line.
Quote from: Crüesader;917826Yes, we call them 'Loyal' and 'Pious', and 'true servants of the God Emperor'.
But seriously, I get what you're saying. I'd have rather received a toolkit than a standalone, area-specific, limited product.
You can't please all the people, all the time.
Quote from: Catelf;917833I think I can make a prediction here:
Unless GW divides up its rpg properties on several holders, then the next commercial property based on WH40K that makes a good enough stat converter between the wargame rules and its rpg rules, as well as solid enough rpg rules, of course, will outsell FFG's WH40K-based line.
It's an interesting conjecture but that's all it is.
Quote from: Simlasa;917818You're writing a 4OK RPG.
You KNOW there are a lot of folks out there who would like to play Eldar, Tau and other stuff.
Why would you NOT include rules for that except for some fucked up "This is how we want you to play" reasoning?
That right off starts annoying a sizeable chunk of your potential customers.
Not that it's all that hard to come up with your own rules for... anything... but it's a glaring omission no matter what the apologists say. It's a mistake.
I disagree. A game can make the choice to limit options in order to provide a more cohesive experience that actually matches the context of the fictional universe, and that's not a glaring omission. The 40K universe is not the Star Trek federation, its a universe populated by warmongering xenophobes. There's no context for an "adventuring group" composed of Tau, Eldar, and humans, let alone Orks, Necrons, or Dark Eldar (and how can one say its a glaring omission to include the options for the first three and not the second? just as many wargame players love these races). I know there are players who would like to play a Beholder in D&D, an Eldar Thing in Call of Cthulhu, or a Celestial in FASERIP, that doesn't mean it makes for a good game experience.
Quote from: yosemitemike;917838It's an interesting conjecture but that's all it is.
You are underestimating my grounds for that prediction, I think.
A lot of those interested in rpg-rules for WH40K is unavoidably also wargamers of said game.
A reliable stat converter would not only allow for turning soldiers, warriors and others from said wargame into PCs and NPCs, Independent of race, species or anything else, but it would also allow for the reverse, and THAT, I dare say, is where the major part of the extra sell point comes in.
It would not only work as an rpg, but also as unofficial campaign rules for improving small kill teams and warbands, a replacement for the Inquisitor game, and it would be easy to include a character group in an actual WH40K - Battle.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;917824I'd legitimately be interested to hear you elaborate on that.
I did a bit above, but my thoughts on the matter are thus: the RPGs and the Wargames provide opposite views of the worlds/universes, in that the Wargames are, appropriately, the "top-down" view of everything from the overall perspective of the big movers and shakers of the world. Warhammer Fantasy Battles and Warhammer 40,000 provide an omniscient perspective where individuals are largely meaningless; its the shaping of history, one battle at a time, epic, grandiose, and heroic.
Conversely, the Warhammer RPGs are a "bottom-up" view of the world, sometimes extremely so (playing a beggar or rat-catcher on the streets of Altdorf in WHFRP). This provides a perspective on these fictional realities that conveys the wonder, otherworldliness, and vastness of the settings in a way far more effective than the Wargames. It is the frame of reference of the individual trying to survive in a cosmos far beyond his ability to completely comprehend, and in that manner immersive in a way the Wargames can't manage by their nature.
In Warhammer Fantasy Battles, most opponents of any experience know the troop types and war machines of the Skaven, in Warhammer Fantasy Role-play, the Skaven are fairy tale rumours that may or may not exist, spoken of in hushed tones by retired rat-catchers that fear the sewers they once frequented. In WH40K, Chaos Daemons is a brutal codex (less so now that Matt "What is this
balance word you speak of?" Ward isn't around, but I digress) that a canny player will adapt their armies to compensate against. In Dark Heresy "Chaos" is the Lovecraftian unknown, horrors not spoken of, those few witnesses of that somehow manage to survive are driven insane or slain by their compatriots lest the infection of "That Which Man Was not Meant to Know" spread Heresy like a disease of the soul.
These twin alternate but complementary perspectives are both valuable manners in which to experience these fascinating grimdark alternatives, and I find that the anthropocentric focus is an incredibly valuable tool in providing the unique context of the RPGs. Certainly, in WFRP, one could play a Dwarf or Wood Elf, but they were always individuals stranded in the Empire, not the Ironbreakers of the Underground Kingdoms or the stag riders of the Wyld Hunt. The focus was on the perspective of the individual within the Empire, sheltered from the great battles outside of civilization, with Chaos subtly but pervasively seeping in the shadows, gnawing at the edges of a people distracted by the day to day realities of a Renaissance-era Western society. With 40K, the Empire becomes the Imperium, a sprawling dystopian future of humanity where the callousness and ignorant fanaticism of the people in charge of a crumbling civilization is as much a danger to an individual's life as the supreme hostility of the greater universe beyond. This is not the perspective of The Eldar, a doomed alien race that are nonetheless practically godlike in comparison, whose technology has advanced to the point outsiders can only regard it as magic, and whose thoughts and perspectives are so alien as to completely obscure any ability to see the Imperium from the worm's eye view of an Inquisitorial acolyte or freshly recruited Guardsman.
This has been long and rambling, and mostly just typing it out as I think, as I've not before attempted to put it in so many words, but hopefully I've managed to convey my opinions in a way thats at least explanatory, if not convincing.
Quote from: Catelf;917867You are underestimating my grounds for that prediction, I think.
I'm just calling a conjecture what it is. This is conjecture. Unless such a product comes out so we can see how it sells, that's all it will ever be. You are guessing.
I could've sworn that WFRP 1e had conversion rules from wargame to rpg. I think it was just making numbers into percentiles, since most of the stats maxed out at 10 anyway.
Time to dust off Slaves to Darkness and find out...
Quote from: Necrozius;917906I could've sworn that WFRP 1e had conversion rules from wargame to rpg. I think it was just making numbers into percentiles, since most of the stats maxed out at 10 anyway.
Time to dust off Slaves to Darkness and find out...
It's right in the main handbook, in the beginning of bestiary section.
Quote from: Rincewind1;917909It's right in the main handbook, in the beginning of bestiary section.
If that's cross-compatible as a system with 40k, I'd like to test that. My concern is that not all of the special rules do this, either. Been a moment since I've cracked the books.
Quote from: Crüesader;917723I ordered this and have yet to open it. Honestly, that's a HELL of a bargain.
The squad of Marines is $40. The squad of cuntfaced Xeno filth is $50.
And there's the Kill-Team rules, AND a smaller version of the 40k rulebook.
Brilliant- it's $65
Not so brilliant at $65. For a game I'm "trying" that's a lot of outlay. YMMV
Quote from: Tod13;917914Not so brilliant at $65. For a game I'm "trying" that's a lot of outlay. YMMV
Try a demo at a store.
Quote from: TristramEvans;917877There's no context for an "adventuring group" composed of Tau, Eldar, and humans, let alone Orks, Necrons, or Dark Eldar...
I disagree, Rogue Trader or a theoretical hive world game have context enough to make [human + moderately awful xenos] feasible. People disregard the Imperium's doctrines and get away with it for years or even centuries at a time, regardless of what fanboys claim.
There's another context for an "adventuring group" composed of such races too: an ALL Tau/Eldar/Ork group. You can't tell me Eldar corsairs wouldn't have been a great campaign pitch.
Quote from: TristramEvans;917877I did a bit above, but my thoughts on the matter are thus:
Thank you.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;917936I disagree, Rogue Trader or a theoretical hive world game have context enough to make [human + moderately awful xenos] feasible. People disregard the Imperium's doctrines and get away with it for years or even centuries at a time, regardless of what fanboys claim.
There's another context for an "adventuring group" composed of such races too: an ALL Tau/Eldar/Ork group. You can't tell me Eldar corsairs wouldn't have been a great campaign pitch.
Thank you.
Given that the Tau treat their human allies way, way better than the Empire treats anyone, an all-human Tau group would be loads of fun...
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;917936There's another context for an "adventuring group" composed of such races too: an ALL Tau/Eldar/Ork group. You can't tell me Eldar corsairs wouldn't have been a great campaign pitch.
Really doing it would require a good sized book with large sections devoted to explaining the Eldar and their society and alternate rules for their gear especially their ships which work very differently from Imperial ships. It could be added to the existing Rogue Trader line but I think doing it properly would require its own core cook and line given how much would have to be explained about the complex, alien Eldar society and its history. Like many things, it could be done but it would be a substantial investment of time and money. The line seems to be more or less defunct though so I doubt FFG will be doing it.
I'm not a 40k guy, but I'm an avid WFRP fan.
As far as I am concerned, WFRP died when FF announced their 3rd ed. board/story game thing. Still, WFRP 1 and 2 are are wonderful games that any licensee would have a hard time topping. Anyone who took the license would have stiff competition with their own past. The best they could do, IMO, is go go back to WFRP2 and release more material for it. I'd love to see some official stuff for elves, dwarfs, halflings, Norsica, Araby, etc... It isn't ever gonna happen though, not without a serious overhaul to the core to make you re-buy the entire line. I have zero confidence in GW business practices producing worthy or even decent games. We'll either get nothing, or a crappy reinvention for WFRP. That's just the GW way.
Quote from: Madprofessor;918047I'm not a 40k guy, but I'm an avid WFRP fan.
As far as I am concerned, WFRP died when FF announced their 3rd ed. board/story game thing. Still, WFRP 1 and 2 are are wonderful games that any licensee would have a hard time topping. Anyone who took the license would have stiff competition with their own past. The best they could do, IMO, is go go back to WFRP2 and release more material for it. I'd love to see some official stuff for elves, dwarfs, halflings, Norsica, Araby, etc... It isn't ever gonna happen though, not without a serious overhaul to the core to make you re-buy the entire line. I have zero confidence in GW business practices producing worthy or even decent games. We'll either get nothing, or a crappy reinvention for WFRP. That's just the GW way.
Note that neither 2nd edition nor 3rd edition were made by GW, this was a decade after 1st ed had been licensed out to Hogshead, so while GW's an easy target for hate, in this case they are simply the IP provider so its nothing to do with "the GW way".
That said, it seems very unlikely GW would license out the Old World again; if another official RPG comes along its unfortunately more than likely to be set in Age of Sigmar.
FFG was and still is mainly a boardgame company. They live lots of counters and custom dice. 3rd edition WHFRP is just the game I would expect from them.
Quote from: TristramEvans;918061Note that neither 2nd edition nor 3rd edition were made by GW, this was a decade after 1st ed had been licensed out to Hogshead, so while GW's an easy target for hate, in this case they are simply the IP provider so its nothing to do with "the GW way".
Yes, I know, but 1e and 2 are quite similar, still basically the same game. Hogshead, BI, GR at least had the good sense to make the most of an awesome game rather than try to one up it. Regardless, GW is still responsible for hocking rather than cultivating their IP. Most of my distrust of the company comes from the many editions, and subsequent canning of WFB.
What I mean by the "GW way" is that they are unlikely to support anything that you already own.
QuoteThat said, it seems very unlikely GW would license out the Old World again; if another official RPG comes along its unfortunately more than likely to be set in Age of Sigmar.
Right
QuoteOriginally posted by yosemitemike
FFG was and still is mainly a boardgame company. They live lots of counters and custom dice. 3rd edition WHFRP is just the game I would expect from them.
Yes, I know. I still think GW owns some of the responsibility for this monstrosity. It was their IP to sell in the first place.
Quote from: Madprofessor;918066Yes, I know. I still think GW owns some of the responsibility for this monstrosity. It was their IP to sell in the first place.
I wasn't a huge fan of it and I think all the bits and bobs made it too expensive but I think monstrosity is going a bit far.
I love 3e, the dice mechanic adds narrative drive.
I would've preferred talent trees to cards, but I'll take the good with the bad. Disappointed it died, but i'll eventually find a copy of Hero's Call!
You can always tell when someone has never read or played 3rd edition based on their complaints.
Quote from: yosemitemike;918073I wasn't a huge fan of it and I think all the bits and bobs made it too expensive but I think monstrosity is going a bit far.
Yeah you're right, I probably did go too far. I bought it enthusiastically, played it once, and sold it. I never gave it a second chance. For me it was worse because it was warhammer, but I wouldn't have liked the game regardless of setting. Monstrosity? Maybe not, but certainly not my sort of game.
Just because someone doesn't like something you assume they're unfamiliar with it and are making it up? My word choice for describing it was perhaps none to subtle. I approached the game with an open mind and found it not at all to my liking. Perhaps if I would have given it a second chance I would have grown to like it, but probably not. Its just not my cup o' jo. Didn't mean to step on anyone's toes with the comment.
No game will appeal to everyone.
I'd never understand why GW destroyed the Old World to create a new setting for Age of Sigmar.
Quote from: Frey;918114I'd never understand why GW destroyed the Old World to create a new setting for Age of Sigmar.
Because after their failure to copyright Space Marine and thereby fuck over the wallet of anyone who tried to use the term, they needed a reason to rename everything in Warhammer Fantasy for
MAXIMUM COPYRIIIIIGHT!
I think, when FFG took over the Warhammer license, the real prize for them was the 40K lines which had only just kicked off with Dark Heresy. WFRP 2nd Edition had been out a few years by then, had a load of supplements and as a publishing run was beginning to wind down. I imagine the management just looked at the fantasy game as an opportunity to experiment with the form and presentation of a RPG, hence the way in which they packaged the 3rd edition in the manner of one of their boardgames. It was a worthy experiment in some ways, but ultimately it didn't really appeal to a new audience or the established fanbase.
I wonder if this means that my Complete Collection of WFRP 3e will go up in value. I have everything for that game except for the very last print-on-demand spell pack (for one of the Cleric schools, I think).
Quote from: TrippyHippy;918117I think, when FFG took over the Warhammer license, the real prize for them was the 40K lines which had only just kicked off with Dark Heresy. WFRP 2nd Edition had been out a few years by then, had a load of supplements and as a publishing run was beginning to wind down. I imagine the management just looked at the fantasy game as an opportunity to experiment with the form and presentation of a RPG, hence the way in which they packaged the 3rd edition in the manner of one of their boardgames. It was a worthy experiment in some ways, but ultimately it didn't really appeal to a new audience or the established fanbase.
That approach has worked well for them in their board games and they had everything all set up to do it. It just doesn't seem to have worked all that well for an RPG. They haven't repeated it anyway.
Quote from: yosemitemike;918121That approach has worked well for them in their board games and they had everything all set up to do it. It just doesn't seem to have worked all that well for an RPG. They haven't repeated it anyway.
I agree for the most part, although they did retain the dice-pool mechanic for their Star Wars games.
Quote from: TristramEvans;918061Note that neither 2nd edition nor 3rd edition were made by GW, this was a decade after 1st ed had been licensed out to Hogshead, so while GW's an easy target for hate, in this case they are simply the IP provider so its nothing to do with "the GW way".
That said, it seems very unlikely GW would license out the Old World again; if another official RPG comes along its unfortunately more than likely to be set in Age of Sigmar.
Actually, WFRP 2nd edition was technically made by GW, as Black Industries was a subsidiary of GW. It was designed outhouse though - through Green Ronin.
Its official, folks. Warhammer is no longer a license of Fantasy Flight Games as of Feb 28, 2017. Here is their statement on the matter: https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2016/9/9/a-new-path-forward/
So as far as the boardgames went, which were good? Chaos in the Old World looked interesting. Might be time to pick up one or two before the prices skyrocket.
Quote from: CRKrueger;918156Chaos in the Old World looked interesting. Might be time to pick up one or two before the prices skyrocket.
I always wanted that one after seeing the Dice Tower review where they gave it thumbs down because of its demonic content/graphics (while making the game itself sound pretty fun).
Quote from: CRKrueger;918156So as far as the boardgames went, which were good? Chaos in the Old World looked interesting. Might be time to pick up one or two before the prices skyrocket.
Yes, do that. It's a good game. Invasion is a pretty good LCG (DCG now?) too.
While we lament the loss of Fantasy Flight Games’ license over Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay (https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2016/9/9/a-new-path-forward/), we have but one request to GW. In the infamous words of Domhnall Drumph:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]360[/ATTACH] (http://warhammerfantasyroleplay.com)
Quote from: CRKrueger;918156So as far as the boardgames went, which were good? Chaos in the Old World looked interesting. Might be time to pick up one or two before the prices skyrocket.
It is very good. Also is the new 40k strategy.
Quote from: CRKrueger;918156So as far as the boardgames went, which were good? Chaos in the Old World looked interesting. Might be time to pick up one or two before the prices skyrocket.
Horus Heresy is pretty cool. The components look fantastic. It's pretty fun to play. The only problem is that it doesn't have a ton of replay value for a game that costs so much.
The Warhammer Quest Card game is okay. I got it used for less than half price and managed to get the two print-on-demand hero packs from a FLGS. It's neat but constantly reminds me how much I miss the REAL Warhammer Quest. Not that new stupid one that costs 300$ or whatever.
Quote from: Necrozius;918351The Warhammer Quest Card game is okay. I got it used for less than half price and managed to get the two print-on-demand hero packs from a FLGS. It's neat but constantly reminds me how much I miss the REAL Warhammer Quest. Not that new stupid one that costs 300$ or whatever.
One of the nice things about the real WHQ was that it was perpetually expandable with the conversion rules. Want dark elves? can do. Want more types of skaven? Can do.
FFG parting with GW comes as both a surprise and was kinda inevitible. GW has that well deserved rep of being fickle with their license to others and iron fisted if they get someone elses. Even if they never use it again. So sooner or later they were going to put the screws to FFG. FFG of course probably deserving it to as they arent exactly exemplars of publishing either.
My greatest lament about the death of the FFG Warhammer 40k RPG line is now we will never get an RPG where the PCs play as Orks.
Most RPG campaigns degenerate into slapstick anyway, so why not cut out the middle man?
Quote from: Warboss Squee;918115Because after their failure to copyright Space Marine and thereby fuck over the wallet of anyone who tried to use the term, they needed a reason to rename everything in Warhammer Fantasy for MAXIMUM COPYRIIIIIGHT!
Pretty much this. Age of Sigmar is a shining example of why you don't let lawyers write your game world (lack of) background.
Quote from: Torque2100;918735My greatest lament about the death of the FFG Warhammer 40k RPG line is now we will never get an RPG where the PCs play as Orks.
Most RPG campaigns degenerate into slapstick anyway, so why not cut out the middle man?
You could play an Ork Freebooter in one of the Rogue Trader supplements.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;917302I read somewhere that GW is really uncomfortable and reluctant about their RPGs allowing non-human player characters. Like it's an actual management policy, not just the fluff of the game. Has anyone heard about this and know why?
It's exactly the same as with the Black Library's policy on fiction.
Quote from: Kiero;918988It's exactly the same as with the Black Library's policy on fiction.
One of the novelists I knew back in the 90s mentioned that his editor or publisher had some sort of mandate that if aliens were in a book then the humans had to allways win. Sy-Fy Channel had a mandate of "No Space Ships" for a time. So its very possible GW has something going too. Some editorial mandate.
There are books about the Xenos- hell, there's books on Chaos. And there were books in Warhammer Fantasy told from the perspective of Elves of all sorts and Chaos.
I think it was less about the games being 'restricted' by GW, and more about them restricting themselves to the themes. The books seemed to avoid a lot of stuff, except for the very basics.
The comics at least covered alot of ground. Skaven, Chaos, undead, pretty much everything showed up eventually. Same with the short story magazine whose name eludes me.
The RPG on the other hand was a little spartan on playing outside human. That may have been as simple as a design choice. Some designers believe that players cannot grock to playing non-humans. Others just despise the idea of anyone playing an elf or dwarf.
Some of the pregens in the original WFRP rulebook adventure were non-humans.
If it's an actual policy it's one that came later on... like a lot of other things that keep me looking back to those earlier sources when things seemed more about creativity and less about corporate overwatch.
Quote from: CRKrueger;918156So as far as the boardgames went, which were good? Chaos in the Old World looked interesting. Might be time to pick up one or two before the prices skyrocket.
I've only played Chaos in the Old World twice, but both games were very fun. If you like that concept, check out the Glorantha Gods War Kickstarter ending tomorrow.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1816687860/the-gods-war
Quote from: Kiero;918988It's exactly the same as with the Black Library's policy on fiction.
Mind if i ask what this is iv never heard of this before.
Quote from: Simlasa;919091Some of the pregens in the original WFRP rulebook adventure were non-humans.
If it's an actual policy it's one that came later on... like a lot of other things that keep me looking back to those earlier sources when things seemed more about creativity and less about corporate overwatch.
Ive got the original GW version. Page 14. Race selection. Man, Wood Elf, Dwarf, Halfling. Which is also the races of the 4 pregens.
Quote from: kosmos1214;919148Mind if i ask what this is iv never heard of this before.
I've never heard of it, either. What I will say is that I can honestly understand them being a bit hesitant to let people write any old thing they want. Look at C.S. Goto claiming 'artistic license' or whatever. All of a sudden- everyone's got a multilaser, Eldar don't have kidneys, and Dark Eldar can totally live in the Eye of Terror and worship Slaanesh.
I like most of the 40k books I've read. The Horus Heresy is pretty damned great, and the Beast series is pretty good so far. But just like Star Wars novels, there's a good heap of complete shit in there, too.
Quote from: kosmos1214;919148Mind if i ask what this is iv never heard of this before.
I've no idea whether it's still current, I haven't looked in probably a decade, but for the longest time Black Library's policy on fiction submissions was that they had to be from a human POV. Ie not xenos/elves/whatever.
It used to be here (http://www.blacklibrary.com/Getting-Started/FAQ-Working-For-Black-Library.html), but for some reason the link is broken.
Quote from: Omega;918995One of the novelists I knew back in the 90s mentioned that his editor or publisher had some sort of mandate that if aliens were in a book then the humans had to allways win. Sy-Fy Channel had a mandate of "No Space Ships" for a time. So its very possible GW has something going too. Some editorial mandate.
I was at a panel with the main animator for the Japanese TV series "Nadia of the Mysterious Sea". The TV station said "no space ships that look like sea vessels" a la Yamato or Harlock. So his show had submarines. That could fly. Into space. But no space ships.
Quote from: Kiero;919218I've no idea whether it's still current, I haven't looked in probably a decade, but for the longest time Black Library's policy on fiction submissions was that they had to be from a human POV. Ie not xenos/elves/whatever.
It used to be here (http://www.blacklibrary.com/Getting-Started/FAQ-Working-For-Black-Library.html), but for some reason the link is broken.
thanks