Quote from: daniel_ream;893697(snip)

Bollocks yourself; you can go light a bonfire with all those strawmen.

Presuming that you're unmoved by the hostility to the notion displayed by the posters in this thread ...

(EDIT: And hell, even when payment is expected, there's hostility out there.  I've played a MMORPG, on and off, since 1991; it's a text game that's the oldest surviving commercial MMORPG.  When it left proprietary online services such as GEnie for the web in the mid-90s, with a monthly subscription fee, it started with tiered pricing; a "Premium" subscription would get you faster command execution and a number of in-game perks, including much quicker GM response time.  That much caused a fair bit of resentment, but a good bit more resentment came when they started to have limited edition "festivals," with their own tiered price tags, handing out extra special perks.)

... let's consider something else.  Tabletop gamers are cheap.  Groups where only the GM possesses rulebooks are common; hell, I've seen groups where the GM doesn't either.  Another common paean is how the gaming companies are raping the customers with the outrageous cost of gamebooks These Days ... however much, in fact, that the amount of material and production values have tremendously outstripped inflation, and the cost of a corebook that can last decades is significantly less than the value of such ephemeral entertainments as taking a date out for a dinner and a movie, or attending a major sporting event.

That there are those who like to game at conventions, and spend money to do so?  Okay.  There are a number of lists out there, and they report an average of six cons a month with programmed gaming action, somewhere in the United States ... which means numbers between Gencon and Worldcon down to the local college cons that'll accommodate a couple dozen gamers.  Now remove from that number the players who didn't go to that con exclusively to game, but who felt like taking on a game or two as part of the fun over the weekend.  (This would describe me, every time I've ever run or played a game at a con.)  Does that average out to as many as a hundred hardcore pay-for-players a weekend, spread out over the whole United States?

While we're talking commerce, there's scarcely a business extant that wouldn't consider a market share like that an embarrassing, abject failure.

Look, people will pay for good stuff. I work in an industry in which the largest market share goes to cheap, low-service providers - fitness, dominated by unstaffed 24hr gyms. But I still make a living providing a good service at a price at about 6 times more than those places. I am able to charge 6 times more by providing much more than 6 times the value.

But people won't pay to rent what they can own, in this case D&D rulebooks. They might pay a subscription if it was for extra content, like the modules which Wizards seems so reluctant to write.

Money is not the issue, value is the issue.

Quote from: RandallS;893752Definitely not as minis and terrain tell me that combat probably would be more common and take far longer to play out than I would be willing to tolerate for free -- let alone pay to play.  I probably would not pay to play even a game I liked, however -- I enjoy running campaigns as much as playing so I'd just start my own free-to-play game.

Okay, sure, nice maps and character sheets and handouts and props, whatever.

But let's flip it around, would you like to be able to charge $15 a session per player?  People who want it monthly at that rate are being a bit silly.  The GM's probably spending $15 per session.

Quote from: David Johansen;893857Okay, sure, nice maps and character sheets and handouts and props, whatever.

But let's flip it around, would you like to be able to charge $15 a session per player?  People who want it monthly at that rate are being a bit silly.  The GM's probably spending $15 per session.

I play with friends, not as a commercial proposition.  That's the appalling part to me; it would totally destroy the concept of "game."

Also, I haven't spent serious money on RPGs in years, and I haven't spent serious money on D&D in decades.  My average cost per session as a referee is fractions of cents.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;893811Look, people will pay for good stuff. I work in an industry in which the largest market share goes to cheap, low-service providers - fitness, dominated by unstaffed 24hr gyms. But I still make a living providing a good service at a price at about 6 times more than those places. I am able to charge 6 times more by providing much more than 6 times the value.

But people won't pay to rent what they can own, in this case D&D rulebooks. They might pay a subscription if it was for extra content, like the modules which Wizards seems so reluctant to write.

Money is not the issue, value is the issue.

Back before nickel photocopier were everywhere, we sometimes made copies of stuff by hand.  I still have some.

Tools have gotten more sophisticated; all "$15 a month to access the rules" would result in people figuring out how to use cut-and-paste to extract the necessary elements and ignore the rest.

As I said on the "GaryCon" facebook page, "gamers are a bunch of cheap shitheels."

Chaosium is launching their "living world" campaign for CoC7e as part of their Organized Play. Every month they release a new chapter in a six month unfolding campaign. They are offering it for free, but this is the sort of thing I could see being offered on a pay model.

I do not currently have a CoC campaign running, and could take or leave Organized Play, but if I had a CoC group I would probably be willing to pay $15 a month for a classic Chaosium style campaign complete with player handouts etc. Not having to the lion's share of game prep would be a value to me.

But my willingness to pay depends on the value to me of what I get. The fact that I pay extra to get printed and bound copies of rulebooks I can buy more cheaply in pdf only should say all that is neccessary about what I think of digital only rules.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;893865I play with friends, not as a commercial proposition.  That's the appalling part to me; it would totally destroy the concept of "game."

I think this gets at why the idea of paying a GM (or players) just never sat well with me as a concept. It really is a social activity and one where a monetary exchange feels like it might taint it somehow. Not everyone I game with is a person I see outside of gaming, but many are and they are all people who are welcome at my house.

Also this is probably the most famously doomed to fail venture in gaming. We all have seen people through the years who tried to charge for GMing (whether it was someone who launched a GM for hire service online or back in the day at the local game store). I've never seen any of them meet with success. Ever. I think because it is a bit insulting for someone to ask for money to be your GM.

On the topic of stuff I do pay for. I do a lot of my prep work on my PC nowadays. Easy to use software for making maps, art for player handouts, reference books with ideas and tables and whatnots. Those are the things I pay money for.
I have purchased art packs from rpg.now, I paid for Campaign Cartographer, and bought PDFs of books like Dungeon Alphabet. That kind of stuff gets my wallet stuffins.

Quote from: David Johansen;893857Okay, sure, nice maps and character sheets and handouts and props, whatever.

No, I wouldn't pay $15 a month for that, either.

QuoteBut let's flip it around, would you like to be able to charge $15 a session per player?  People who want it monthly at that rate are being a bit silly.  The GM's probably spending $15 per session.

I have no interest in charging people $15 per session to play in my game. I have no interest in charging people anything to play in my games. I can't even figure out why I would want to do so. Charging would simply make life harder for me as I'd feel obligated to accept any asshat willing to pay, etc. Not to mention I doubt it would make enough a year to justify the bookkeeping and tax issues.

I guess I simply  lack the desire to monetize everything I enjoy doing. Especially as I have discovered over the years that once money gets involved in something I have been doing for fun most of my enjoyment quickly goes away.

I have just returned from GMing a roomful of screaming teenagers for six hours, I do this for free just about every week and have run a gaming store part time at a loss for four years.

What bothers me is the disproportionate expense and effort the GM puts in while the players often contribute nothing.

What I would like is not so much a financial return as the kind of player buy-in that creates a stable group.

And I find myself thinking about the old saw that people don't appreciate or respect anything they don't pay for.

I've been feeling that way a lot lately for some reason.

I want players who are invested I guess.

Oh I've thought about the usual methods, manacles, chains, cattle prods, and hot irons but in the end it's just more time and money out of the GM's pocket.

Quote from: David Johansen;893929I have just returned from GMing a roomful of screaming teenagers for six hours, I do this for free just about every week and have run a gaming store part time at a loss for four years.

What bothers me is the disproportionate expense and effort the GM puts in while the players often contribute nothing.

What I would like is not so much a financial return as the kind of player buy-in that creates a stable group.

And I find myself thinking about the old saw that people don't appreciate or respect anything they don't pay for.

I've been feeling that way a lot lately for some reason.

I want players who are invested I guess.

Oh I've thought about the usual methods, manacles, chains, cattle prods, and hot irons but in the end it's just more time and money out of the GM's pocket.

Every group I've ever DMed for the players brought their own food. Ive never heard of the DM footing the bill for feeding the players. (or feeding them at all.) I might offer if I have something. But to date I've never had players demanding food.

I have though had the players bring over food and expect me to cook it. I'm pretty good at that. Also a good excuse to take a break and stretch. 6hour+ sessions.

Quote from: Omega;893986Every group I've ever DMed for the players brought their own food. Ive never heard of the DM footing the bill for feeding the players. (or feeding them at all.) I might offer if I have something. But to date I've never had players demanding food.

I have though had the players bring over food and expect me to cook it. I'm pretty good at that. Also a good excuse to take a break and stretch. 6hour+ sessions.

I bribed a DM with two litres of coke to let me play the character I wanted in his Star Wars campaign.  Belt Sandar washed up, alcoholic, holo video space hero.  He never took a bribe from me again.

Quote from: David Johansen;893988I bribed a DM with two litres of coke to let me play the character I wanted in his Star Wars campaign.  Belt Sandar washed up, alcoholic, holo video space hero.  He never took a bribe from me again.

Belt Sandar would have so fit into our Star Wars game.

Quote from: Ravenswing;893805... let's consider something else.  Tabletop gamers are cheap.

No, they aren't.  (You too, OG).  At least not as a universal.  You guys are clearly cheap, and I have no doubt that most of the people you play with are cheap.  But I live in an upper-middle-class, whitebread suburban city where the median gamer age is about mid-30's.  Spending multiple thousands of dollars a year on miniatures games, Pathfinder hardbacks, and board games is not unusual here for tabletop gamers.

One of the most rapidly expanding business models around here is board game cafes, where people pay a $5 cover to get into a cafe with tables, tons of games you can play, and light snacks you can buy.  Go once a week and you're paying more than $20/month just for a place to play and a game to play there. And these places are doing booming business.

Maybe, just maybe, a bunch of crusty old grognards with mediocre incomes isn't a good general description of tabletop gamers.  It isn't the 1980's any more.

Quote from: daniel_ream;894059One of the most rapidly expanding business models around here is board game cafes, where people pay a $5 cover to get into a cafe with tables, tons of games you can play, and light snacks you can buy.  Go once a week and you're paying more than $20/month just for a place to play and a game to play there. And these places are doing booming business.

We've got them around here, too. They even charge 5BGN (around $3) for entry:).

We're actually using one of them to stage the local mini-con, since they can't care any less what we play once we pay the entry ticket;).

QuoteMaybe, just maybe, a bunch of crusty old grognards with mediocre incomes isn't a good general description of tabletop gamers. It isn't the 1980's any more.

I don't think Ravenswing has a mediocre income, though. I think he just has the system and setting he intends to play.
Of course, I don't know anyone's income, except my own, and I have reasons to suspect that due to location-related reasons, it's the lowest one on the board:D!