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What if it cost $15 a month to play D&D? The latest game rules could be read only electronically while logged into the D&D website. Would you pay to play the latest version? Or would you stay with 5e (or some other previous version) forever?

Depends.

What is this 15$ a month getting me?

Ha ha no.

No.

(Not even a 'ha-ha' to go with it. Just, 'no'.)

Since I am running a 5E continental sandbox for over a year now, I'd say probably yes.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;893276What if it cost $15 a month to play D&D? The latest game rules could be read only electronically while logged into the D&D website. Would you pay to play the latest version? Or would you stay with 5e (or some other previous version) forever?

Absolutely not. I have enough monthly bills, don't need an extra 15 for D&D. I don't go for subscriptions services or subscription book releases when it comes to RPGs, I want every dollar I spend to be on something I specifically want.

One reason I enjoy roleplaying games is because there is no further required outlay after you get the rules and dice. Sure, you can purchase splats and supplements and advanced rules and whatever. But you don't have ta. It's why I've steered clear of CCGs and MMOs with ongoing fees and whatever.

So, "no".

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;893276What if it cost $15 a month to play D&D? The latest game rules could be read only electronically while logged into the D&D website. Would you pay to play the latest version? Or would you stay with 5e (or some other previous version) forever?

Details, mon. I'm gonna need some details on that...

I still have my DDI subscription for our 4e games, so probably?

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;893276What if it cost $15 a month to play D&D? The latest game rules could be read only electronically while logged into the D&D website. Would you pay to play the latest version? Or would you stay with 5e (or some other previous version) forever?

First off $15/month for a electronic version of the rules that you could only read on-line isn't going to fly. If you think that viable, then you need to be more informed about the history of RPGs, the internet, and digital distribution. In 2003 that may have been an unknown but it is 2016 we have had a lot of people try a lot of different things and we have developed an idea of what will work and what will not.

Now is a subscription service possible for an RPG? Absolutely yes, Fantasy Grounds and to lesser extent Roll20 have proven that. Patreon has also been made to work as a form of subscription service. Lootcrate (https://www.lootcrate.com/subscription-crates/lootcrate?utm_campaign=adwords_brand&utm_source=paidsearch&utm_medium=adwords&utm_term=core_crate&cvosrc=paidsearch.adwords.brand&gclid=CPekuN3-n8wCFQ2QaQodyEoByw) is a subscription service that mails out physical stuff every month. Mythoard  (http://www.mythoard.com/)is the RPG version of that.

But the catch is that the subscription service has to provide value over and above just mere access to the rules. And nobody would in their right mind use it as their sole means of distribution. The closest would be certain Patreon users but even there they try to use other channels of distributions like RPGNow for a compilation of last year's releases.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;893276What if it cost $15 a month to play D&D? The latest game rules could be read only electronically while logged into the D&D website. Would you pay to play the latest version? Or would you stay with 5e (or some other previous version) forever?

I opened the thread with the expectation that someone is offering $15 to the players. FWIW, I was planning to post that I might or might not be tempted away from my current games, and suggest raising the sum:p!
Also, $15 per month should get me at least the equivalent of a corebook's worth of materials, per month, or there's no deal;).

Paying a subscription for access to game rules, is obscene. "Intellectual property rights" are so disgusting. Subscriptions to use data are even more ridiculous than trying to control what data people copy from computer to computer.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;893276What if it cost $15 a month to play D&D? The latest game rules could be read only electronically while logged into the D&D website. Would you pay to play the latest version? Or would you stay with 5e (or some other previous version) forever?

I would ask why I'm paying. Considering I'm mostly 2nd ed now, I can't see why I would want to.

I happily play Original D&D from 1974.  So, take an educated guess.

I subscribe to Roll20 for $5 a month.  That's about all I'm willing to do.

To quote the Mighty Thor: "Nay, nay, and thrice nay!"

I'd play D&D if someone was paying me 15 dollars a month.

I'm just fantasy burnt out at this point, been doing that since 1993-2015, 22 years of D&D dungeon crawling and Earthdawn kaer crawling.

Necessary Evil has been a breath of fresh air as a modern supers game.

As for the actual topic, 15 dollars is too high in general for a subscription service for strictly online goods when the average PDF is 10.00 or less. Has to have more value than that for the price point. 15 x 12 = 180 a year. 10 x 12= 120, 5 x 12= 60. These two are much more affordable price points. So you need to provide 180 dollars worth of total service for the year. Even D&D Insider for 4th edition has died a slow death when Wizards tried to do something similar (you can still renew but not subscribe, its like WotC winding a server down over time).

Negative ghostrider. The pattern is full.

At first I thought I was being offered $15 a month to play D&D, and I was wondering if it would be worth it but...

Quote from: Opaopajr;893282No.

(Not even a 'ha-ha' to go with it. Just, 'no'.)

Worth quoting.

I happily play Original D&D from 1974.  So, take an educated guess.

Quote from: Celestial;893319I subscribe to Roll20 for $5 a month.  That's about all I'm willing to do.

Decent price.

My first reaction would be no. However, looking at how much I pay for my website now, and that I used to subscribe to Obsidian Portal, there is a sort of yes there as well. The website cost can be amortized in other uses, though in the end, it's just fluff surrounding my playing RPG's, and satisfying my OCD for control and organization. To me, those costs are fine (less than $15/mo.), in that I have control, and I am not dependent on others for the service. I do know someone who subscribed to a wiki service that was around $20 a month, I thought that excessive.

Not for D&D, no. In fact unless you took away all the RPG that I currently own I probably wouldn't pay to play.

I don't do online RPGs, and needing to have an internet connection where I was gaming limits some possibilities.

I thought it was someone offering to pay $15, and I thought, which version? That is certainly not enough to get me to give up my current game for teh current version of D&D.

I was going to say, "No" but that is too short for the forum to recognize. So...

Hell no!

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;893276What if it cost $15 a month to play D&D? The latest game rules could be read only electronically while logged into the D&D website. Would you pay to play the latest version? Or would you stay with 5e (or some other previous version) forever?

Looks like Pathfinder's headed back to number one again.

Hell no!

But let me ask this, would you pay $15 a session for a professional DM (I know they'll never allow this but bear with me) with a clean, comfortable place to play and well organized miniatures and terrain and an asshat screening system of some sort?

I think I might, especially if people had to pre pay by the quarter so there'd be some financial reason for them to come since they already paid for it.  Maybe a financial penalty for not showing like a damage deposit.

I know it's absurd but, I'd pay for a good regular group.  I have two or three irregular bad ones at my store.  But that's just not the same thing.

Not at all, unless it came with free pizza and Mt. Dew.

$15/month is pretty trivial for doing something you love but the kicker is that there is so much D&D out there we don't have to pay a cent for (beyond buying the books/pdf).  My answer would be no.  Online content is handy to reference when at work or something like that but I like to take physical books to the game.

If you are talking online entertainment you also need to compare that with other stuff that is out there on the market.  Like NetFlix.

Quote from: Fiasco;893423$15/month is pretty trivial for doing something you love but the kicker is that there is so much D&D out there we don't have to pay a cent for (beyond buying the books/pdf).  x.

I think it sounds trivial, but it does come to 180 dollars a year. I consider that a good amount of money for a subscription (my Netflix account doesnt even cost that much). If money is tight, or if you are just trying to be frugal and save for things, that is the sort of thing a lot of people are only going to budget it if they think they are getting a lot of value. It is also one additional expense a month on top of several. I already have monthly services like Netflix, and I have regular monthly bills...but those are all things both me and my wife use. This would be 15 a month for something only I use. I am fine spending money very deliberately on RPG books I want, but something about a commitment to a subscription service for an, even at 15, is money I don't want to spend. This is why I never did DDI and why any interest I had in pathfinder ended when I saw their subscription model.

I think for something like this to have value to me, it would need to be more like a Netflix or Prime, where they are not just giving me Pathfinder or D&D, but giving me access to a wide range of RPG products. Then I might see the value because I can check out a lot of RPGs I may be curious about but not otherwise purchase.

Quote from: David Johansen;893364But let me ask this, would you pay $15 a session for a professional DM (I know they'll never allow this but bear with me) with a clean, comfortable place to play and well organized miniatures and terrain and an asshat screening system of some sort?

I know it's absurd but, I'd pay for a good regular group.  I have two or three irregular bad ones at my store.  But that's just not the same thing.

I've paid more than that per session at a gaming con and not always for good sessions.

I would probably be willing to cough up fifteen bucks a session for a good regular group of a game I enjoyed.

I have a group of mixed players, some frustrating, most mediocre, a couple of gems. Unfortunately the good ones are the ones who can play the least often.

But not for just online only access to the rules.

Its been tried before. And failed miserably. EVERY-SINGLE-TIME.

One of the biggest blockades is that online sites are absolutely 1billion% ephemeral. Sites gone? So is the game.

This is part of the reason I ignore FREE online only, non-downloadable, anything in the past and will in the future too.

It is simmilar to buying a PC game that can only be played as long as the parent site exists.

From around 2000 to I think 05 various companies and artists had the brilliant idea to try things like that. At least two even had screencap blockers up. Not a single one succeeded and all are long gone as if theyd never existed.

For comparison D&D Online is free to play. But the VIP subscription is about 8.30$ a month. It is not a TTRPG though.

The other problem is that many DM/GMs do not like being tied to the computer to play a TTRPG. For counterpoint though. One of my previous DMs though loved it.

Quote from: David Johansen;893364But let me ask this, would you pay $15 a session for a professional DM (I know they'll never allow this but bear with me) with a clean, comfortable place to play and well organized miniatures and terrain and an asshat screening system of some sort?

I'd rather answer this than the OP, which is easily dealt with in the "Since I don't have gamer ADD, and don't buy into the moronic notions that rulebooks have a sell-buy date or that the existence of a later edition means you're not permitted to play earlier versions any more, oh frigging hell no" fashion.

Twice, my players offered to pay me.  Once was in impoverished college days, when $10 for a session loomed pretty large.  (Hell, when I was first in college, I had $6/week spending money, out of which had to come my meals and subway fare.)

Both times, I declined.  (Well, three times.  My brother offered me $25, in 1978, for a vorpal sword for his PC.)

I do this for fun.  I play on the days I choose, in the location I choose, using the system I choose, in the milieu and setting I want, to parameters I prefer.  I make the rulings that suit me, fitting my perception of the integrity of my game.  If I need to call off or postpone a session because I'm sick or there's a family emergency, I don't feel too badly about it.  If I don't have the time during the fortnight to get in the prep time I prefer, I don't feel too badly about it.  If something bad happens to your character -- coincidentally, I had one of my extremely rare permanent PC deaths last session -- I don't feel too badly about it.

The moment I start taking money from you for it, I'm now your employee.  I'd better provide you the experience you want -- you're paying me for it.  Suddenly, there's a disincentive for "Nice try, but no" -- am I in the business of not giving you what you want?  Now that this is a cash-and-carry business, do I back down on "vorpal sword" deals as well ... how much extra XP does $50 buy?  Damn, finances are tight, and that pays my electric bill this month.  And I'd better run this Saturday, sick or not, prep time or not, because, well, getting paid for it.

Nope.  Don't ever want to go there.

I saw an email where Troll Lords is doing this for $5/mo for total access to their entire catalogue.

I wonder if anyone's biting.

Quote from: Spinachcat;893484I saw an email where Troll Lords is doing this for $5/mo for total access to their entire catalogue.

I wonder if anyone's biting.

Is the material view only? Or can it be downloaded?

For Troll Lord it probably makes a lot of sense.  5th edition is pretty solidly parked in their niche and they've got nowhere to go.  So why not try a subscription approach to milk their existing fan base?

Wizards of the Coast, on the other hand, probably can only lose on such a proposition as people can always go and pay $5 /month for Castles and Crusades or pick up a free retro clone instead.

Trying to compete with free by making yourself expensive doesn't strike me as a good strategy.  But maybe it's all about the network externalities.  But then, fourth edition pretty much showed why that's nonsense right?

Quote from: Omega;893486Is the material view only? Or can it be downloaded?

I think its stripclub rules - look but don't touch.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;893276What if it cost $15 a month to play D&D? The latest game rules could be read only electronically while logged into the D&D website. Would you pay to play the latest version? Or would you stay with 5e (or some other previous version) forever?

Why do I get the feeling that this is a trial balloon for some wacky concept that Mongoose has for Traveller?


Not only no, but fuck no.

Quote from: David Johansen;893364But let me ask this, would you pay $15 a session for a professional DM (I know they'll never allow this but bear with me) with a clean, comfortable place to play and well organized miniatures and terrain and an asshat screening system of some sort?

Not per session, but per month, for 2-4 sessions a month I would.  I even think it might be financially viable (assuming you get customers).  Assume six people per group, and three groups a week (my local hobby store has diehard PF groups three nights a week that have going for years), that's $270/month. $800 will buy a lot of minis and terrain, and if you assume the play space is already amortized into the store's operating cost, you just have to decide how much to pay the DMs.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;893276Would You Play D&D For $15 a Month?

If it was $15 a month for a guarantee of hooking me up with a group playing an RPG I wanted to play (Shadowrun, Savage Worlds, etc.), then yeah, I might.

Fuck, no.

Not for any game I liked, there's no way any publisher would rope me into a subscription model for their game.

Quote from: jeff37923;893504Why do I get the feeling that this is a trial balloon for some wacky concept that Mongoose has for Traveller?


Not only no, but fuck no.

You know given that it is Shaun Discroll asking the question, I saw this and went "No it can't be something MongTrav, can't it?"

So I poked around.

And yup guess what out there for $15?


A Bundle of Holding for Mongoose Traveller 1st edition (https://bundleofholding.com/presents/MongooseTraveller) for $15.

Shit Damn this what the question is about? Mongoose releasing something on Bundle of Holding? A one time release of something for charity that get attached to your RPGNow/DriveThru account or part of your BoH library like any other traditional PDF purchase in the last 15 years?

If so and if he thought this was some kind of subscription service what would explain a lot.

Quote from: estar;893586If so and if he thought this was some kind of subscription service what would explain a lot.

I was thinking of WoW when I posted the question.

I'll join the chorus of people answering no.

For me, it's not about the money but about the lack of any need to spend it on that.

At this stage of my career/life, I have more than enough money to buy any RPG, video game, book, board game, movie, etc. I would want. Unfortunately, the other side of that is I no longer have much time to do any of that so I rarely buy anything "fun" anymore. It's all I can do to get in a single three hour session of gaming every other week. As the challenges of life go this isn't even a concern, but it does mean I have no need to purchase much outside of the occasional pdf for ideas (trying to keep a house well-kept means limiting physical purchases since there's only so many bookshelves you want in your home).

When I was in high school / college in the 90's, there was plenty of time for all of that. I could see today's youth possibly going for such an offer - certainly I would have saved money back then by getting that deal from either TSR or White Wolf considering the number of books they pumped out that I wanted.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;893587I was thinking of WoW when I posted the question.

That's what I figured, given that millions of people are doing exactly this for a play experience I personally find stultifying.

The more I think about it, the more I think I'd even go as high as $30[1] a month for a once weekly session with high quality minis and terrain, an adventure path that's tightly plotted and has some branching, run by a GM that's good at it: entertaining, focused on player engagement and enjoyment, and who can abstract the rules for me so I don't have to buy anything.


[1] Canadian.  So, you know, about $7.50 in your local currency

Quote from: jeff37923;893504Why do I get the feeling that this is a trial balloon for some wacky concept that Mongoose has for Traveller?


Not only no, but fuck no.

For the RPG suite? How much is that now? Plus you have to buy the upgrades as it is released or something?

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;893587I was thinking of WoW when I posted the question.

Okay, fair enough.

But MMORPGs are different animals.  They provide different experiences from tabletop RPGs, have different virtues and their own sets of drawbacks.

Suggesting that the pay-for-play model be applied to tabletop doesn't draw from much of a parallel.  For one thing, we already get the service for free.  For another, just like everywhere in the mercantile world, the nature of the beast is that money is no guarantee of quality.  Any one of us -- good GM or bad, superbly prepared or unprepared -- could put a shingle out.  Barring Yelp reviews from a customer base of a half-dozen (and how would you know that they were actually current players, as opposed to the GM's ex-, intent on doing him or her down?), you've no way of knowing.

For a third, a lot of games already have incurred costs.  Take my Saturday group; it meets twice a month.  I live in western Massachusetts.  Only one of the PCs is local (my wife).  One of my players comes up from Boston, two hours away from me.  Another's a half-hour northeast of Boston; he generally comes up the night before to stay with the other two players, who come from Worcester, an hour's drive away.  That's gas money and train fares.  Beyond that, we share a mid-afternoon meal, the responsibility of which rotates: some of us cook, and a couple drop $40+ for pizzas and subs at the corner sub shop when their turn comes up.  Not really the bunch I'd ask to chip in an extra $5 apiece per session for my time.

Interestingly this does tie into one of the key issues of the hobby.  The money verses time paradox.  How does one keep people buying when they no longer have the time / how much does one make games accessible to those who are young but have no money.

My store is full of teenagers, many of whom are in social services custody, none of them have any money but they love to come in and play.  Sure it's terrible groups that would make Tangency weep with their levels of homophobia and sexism.  As I've said many times elsewhere the hope is to direct the formation of their attitudes rather than kicking them to the curb.  No, it's not great for business but with the competition levels in the local area I'm trying to build a fanatical culture that plays alternative games.  Four gaming stores  in an area with a population base of 100 000  When the Games Workshop rep asked how that's even possible I just said "four really big egos."

Most of these kids will never buy more than a pop, but if I can get maybe 1/5 of them to become regular customers and 1/20 to become super customers it'll keep me going.

The problem is that they can't afford stuff and at present I can't afford to do an hours for armies program, though, if I can make things work this year that is coming.

Quote from: Ravenswing;893676Suggesting that the pay-for-play model be applied to tabletop doesn't draw from much of a parallel.  For one thing, we already get the service for free.

Bollocks.  There are tons of services and entertainments that people gladly pay money for.  There's nothing special about RPG sessions.

Sure, your sessions are free.  So's screwing around with your friends in the backyard with Nerf guns and SuperSoakers, and yet somehow Laser Tag is still a thing you can pay money for, and people do.

QuoteAny one of us -- good GM or bad, superbly prepared or unprepared -- could put a shingle out.  Barring Yelp reviews from a customer base of a half-dozen (and how would you know that they were actually current players, as opposed to the GM's ex-, intent on doing him or her down?), you've no way of knowing.

Yes, you're absolutely right.  In six thousand years of human beings exchanging goods for services, this is still an unsolved problem which no one has ever developed any workable response to.  It's a marvel commerce functions at all, frankly.

QuoteFor a third, a lot of games already have incurred costs.  Take my Saturday group; it meets twice a month.[...]

I suggest that your group of friends willing to travel hours to your games are getting together more for the social bonding between long-time compatriots and less because they want to play a game per se.  Which is fine, but is not much of a counter-argument to "people might pay money for a good tabletop gaming experience".

As a point in favour, I should point out that many people do the con circuit regularly for the express purpose of playing in pickup games with strangers, and they're spending far in excess of $15/month to do so.

Quote from: daniel_ream;893697Bollocks.  There are tons of services and entertainments that people gladly pay money for.  There's nothing special about RPG sessions.

Sure, your sessions are free.  So's screwing around with your friends in the backyard with Nerf guns and SuperSoakers, and yet somehow Laser Tag is still a thing you can pay money for, and people do.

Except there nothing about a RPG session that lends itself to a subscription service. There are things that support running a RPG session that people have proven willing to pay a subscription for. But none of them revolve around paying a subscription just to access the rules themselves.

What has worked was access to the official rules implemented as a series of references and utility. I.e. a VTT ruleset. The closest example is Fantasy Ground's support of D&D 5e. However that is in addition to buying D&D 5e normally.

I suppose one could have a situation where there is a set of trusted referee of a series of campaign. Your subscriptions will allow you to reserve a time slot in a periodic campaign (weekly, bi-weekly, etc). You may not get a particular person but since the website vets all of its referees (and assuming you had a good first experience) you trust that the person you get knows what they are doing and what the campaign is about.

I payed a total of $20.00 for my B/X sets. I continue to enjoy them today for no additional cost. That is $20.00 spent once almost 36 years ago. How is $15.00 for a single month a better value?

Quote from: Exploderwizard;893720I payed a total of $20.00 for my B/X sets. I continue to enjoy them today for no additional cost. That is $20.00 spent once almost 36 years ago. How is $15.00 for a single month a better value?

Well $15.00/month is $180/year per subscriber. So if there were 500 subscribers, that would be....

Oh, wait. You meant a better value for you....


...I got nothing.

$15 a month for an MMO is a different experience from $15 a month for D&D, the paper and pencil edition.

I'd pay $15 a month if I could get the sort of experience that an MMO provides, but with the mechanics of D&D, sure (Hear that WotC? Not that crap Neverwinter game).

But of course, as literally everyone has stated, it's a no-go in a world of competition where all prior editions of the game as well as clones and competitors are all buy-once-play-forever.

That said....4E's online subscription service came pretty close to doing exactly this, but did so by providing some robust tools to help run and play the game.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;893587I was thinking of WoW when I posted the question.

WOW isnt an RPG though. Neither is Neverwinter Online.

Quote from: Omega;893737WOW isnt an RPG though. Neither is Neverwinter Online.

Yes they are RPG just not tabletop RPG. Roleplaying Games branched out in a variety of forms from the D&D progenitor. One thread led to computer based RPG. Another led to Live-Action and so on.

Quote from: David Johansen;893688Sure it's terrible groups that would make Tangency weep with their levels of homophobia and sexism.

I like them already. Add some "slaughter orcs on sight" for that """""""""""""""racism""""""""""""""" Tangency abhors, and they can play at my table any time.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;893276What if it cost $15 a month to play D&D? The latest game rules could be read only electronically while logged into the D&D website. Would you pay to play the latest version? Or would you stay with 5e (or some other previous version) forever?

I would not regularly play a tabletop RPG that could only be read online while logged into a website even if it were free. DDI was one of the things that would have turned me off to 4e even if I had loved the rules. There are a couple of main reasons:

1) I see no reason to pay monthly for a tabletop RPG. I can write a playable version of D&D myself if every printed copy or pdf on the planet suddenly disappeared and a monthly sub was the only way to get it going forward.  I don't do monthly subscription games of any type (I have zero interest in MMO games, for example).

2) I want stable rules -- not rules that can be updated at the designer's whim that I'm forced to use because they updated the online copy. As GM, I may have already solved the problem they errataed my way and I have zero interest in changing the old rules to fit what they want to do in some new supplement. I'm obviously not a member of the "cult of the RAW".

Quote from: David Johansen;893364But let me ask this, would you pay $15 a session for a professional DM (I know they'll never allow this but bear with me) with a clean, comfortable place to play and well organized miniatures and terrain and an asshat screening system of some sort?

Definitely not as minis and terrain tell me that combat probably would be more common and take far longer to play out than I would be willing to tolerate for free -- let alone pay to play.  I probably would not pay to play even a game I liked, however -- I enjoy running campaigns as much as playing so I'd just start my own free-to-play game.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;893587I was thinking of WoW when I posted the question.

Getting away from the computer is one of the nice things about playing TT RPGs for me nowadays.

Quote from: Omega;893737WOW isnt an RPG though. Neither is Neverwinter Online.

Didn't have to be an RPG specifically. Just a game (or anything) with a monthly fee.

I'd pay $15 a month for a virtual table top but not for a game.  

I'd likely not pay a penny for yet another D&D.

I also despise the very idea of cloud-based software, which is what you are describing.

Those who think this is a good idea have very different internet providers than me.  Service going out is not a rare event.  Let alone if the game providers servers or site goes down.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;893276What if it cost $15 a month to play D&D? The latest game rules could be read only electronically while logged into the D&D website. Would you pay to play the latest version? Or would you stay with 5e (or some other previous version) forever?

No. I wouldn't pay $1 a month. The issue is not the money - I spent far more than $15 a month on rpgs at my peak, and could do so now - it's that when I buy something, I expect to own it. With things like movies this doesn't matter as much, since you usually watch them once and then forget about them, this is why I'll pay for online TV. But rpgs are used ongoing. So I'll pay for my copy and that's that.

I also prefer a paper to electronic copy, though I understand that if sales are low, bound books may not be an option. Thus my own involvement in pdf games. So I'd accept, for example, you buy the rulebooks and then pay a monthly fee for an online magazine with adventure modules, etc.

We'll pay for new content. We won't pay for continued access to old content, even Microsquash with their "you don't own it, you license it" bullshit figured that out.

Quote from: daniel_ream;893697(snip)

Bollocks yourself; you can go light a bonfire with all those strawmen.

Presuming that you're unmoved by the hostility to the notion displayed by the posters in this thread ...

(EDIT: And hell, even when payment is expected, there's hostility out there.  I've played a MMORPG, on and off, since 1991; it's a text game that's the oldest surviving commercial MMORPG.  When it left proprietary online services such as GEnie for the web in the mid-90s, with a monthly subscription fee, it started with tiered pricing; a "Premium" subscription would get you faster command execution and a number of in-game perks, including much quicker GM response time.  That much caused a fair bit of resentment, but a good bit more resentment came when they started to have limited edition "festivals," with their own tiered price tags, handing out extra special perks.)

... let's consider something else.  Tabletop gamers are cheap.  Groups where only the GM possesses rulebooks are common; hell, I've seen groups where the GM doesn't either.  Another common paean is how the gaming companies are raping the customers with the outrageous cost of gamebooks These Days ... however much, in fact, that the amount of material and production values have tremendously outstripped inflation, and the cost of a corebook that can last decades is significantly less than the value of such ephemeral entertainments as taking a date out for a dinner and a movie, or attending a major sporting event.

That there are those who like to game at conventions, and spend money to do so?  Okay.  There are a number of lists out there, and they report an average of six cons a month with programmed gaming action, somewhere in the United States ... which means numbers between Gencon and Worldcon down to the local college cons that'll accommodate a couple dozen gamers.  Now remove from that number the players who didn't go to that con exclusively to game, but who felt like taking on a game or two as part of the fun over the weekend.  (This would describe me, every time I've ever run or played a game at a con.)  Does that average out to as many as a hundred hardcore pay-for-players a weekend, spread out over the whole United States?

While we're talking commerce, there's scarcely a business extant that wouldn't consider a market share like that an embarrassing, abject failure.

Look, people will pay for good stuff. I work in an industry in which the largest market share goes to cheap, low-service providers - fitness, dominated by unstaffed 24hr gyms. But I still make a living providing a good service at a price at about 6 times more than those places. I am able to charge 6 times more by providing much more than 6 times the value.

But people won't pay to rent what they can own, in this case D&D rulebooks. They might pay a subscription if it was for extra content, like the modules which Wizards seems so reluctant to write.

Money is not the issue, value is the issue.

Quote from: RandallS;893752Definitely not as minis and terrain tell me that combat probably would be more common and take far longer to play out than I would be willing to tolerate for free -- let alone pay to play.  I probably would not pay to play even a game I liked, however -- I enjoy running campaigns as much as playing so I'd just start my own free-to-play game.

Okay, sure, nice maps and character sheets and handouts and props, whatever.

But let's flip it around, would you like to be able to charge $15 a session per player?  People who want it monthly at that rate are being a bit silly.  The GM's probably spending $15 per session.

Quote from: David Johansen;893857Okay, sure, nice maps and character sheets and handouts and props, whatever.

But let's flip it around, would you like to be able to charge $15 a session per player?  People who want it monthly at that rate are being a bit silly.  The GM's probably spending $15 per session.

I play with friends, not as a commercial proposition.  That's the appalling part to me; it would totally destroy the concept of "game."

Also, I haven't spent serious money on RPGs in years, and I haven't spent serious money on D&D in decades.  My average cost per session as a referee is fractions of cents.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;893811Look, people will pay for good stuff. I work in an industry in which the largest market share goes to cheap, low-service providers - fitness, dominated by unstaffed 24hr gyms. But I still make a living providing a good service at a price at about 6 times more than those places. I am able to charge 6 times more by providing much more than 6 times the value.

But people won't pay to rent what they can own, in this case D&D rulebooks. They might pay a subscription if it was for extra content, like the modules which Wizards seems so reluctant to write.

Money is not the issue, value is the issue.

Back before nickel photocopier were everywhere, we sometimes made copies of stuff by hand.  I still have some.

Tools have gotten more sophisticated; all "$15 a month to access the rules" would result in people figuring out how to use cut-and-paste to extract the necessary elements and ignore the rest.

As I said on the "GaryCon" facebook page, "gamers are a bunch of cheap shitheels."

Chaosium is launching their "living world" campaign for CoC7e as part of their Organized Play. Every month they release a new chapter in a six month unfolding campaign. They are offering it for free, but this is the sort of thing I could see being offered on a pay model.

I do not currently have a CoC campaign running, and could take or leave Organized Play, but if I had a CoC group I would probably be willing to pay $15 a month for a classic Chaosium style campaign complete with player handouts etc. Not having to the lion's share of game prep would be a value to me.

But my willingness to pay depends on the value to me of what I get. The fact that I pay extra to get printed and bound copies of rulebooks I can buy more cheaply in pdf only should say all that is neccessary about what I think of digital only rules.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;893865I play with friends, not as a commercial proposition.  That's the appalling part to me; it would totally destroy the concept of "game."

I think this gets at why the idea of paying a GM (or players) just never sat well with me as a concept. It really is a social activity and one where a monetary exchange feels like it might taint it somehow. Not everyone I game with is a person I see outside of gaming, but many are and they are all people who are welcome at my house.

Also this is probably the most famously doomed to fail venture in gaming. We all have seen people through the years who tried to charge for GMing (whether it was someone who launched a GM for hire service online or back in the day at the local game store). I've never seen any of them meet with success. Ever. I think because it is a bit insulting for someone to ask for money to be your GM.

On the topic of stuff I do pay for. I do a lot of my prep work on my PC nowadays. Easy to use software for making maps, art for player handouts, reference books with ideas and tables and whatnots. Those are the things I pay money for.
I have purchased art packs from rpg.now, I paid for Campaign Cartographer, and bought PDFs of books like Dungeon Alphabet. That kind of stuff gets my wallet stuffins.

Quote from: David Johansen;893857Okay, sure, nice maps and character sheets and handouts and props, whatever.

No, I wouldn't pay $15 a month for that, either.

QuoteBut let's flip it around, would you like to be able to charge $15 a session per player?  People who want it monthly at that rate are being a bit silly.  The GM's probably spending $15 per session.

I have no interest in charging people $15 per session to play in my game. I have no interest in charging people anything to play in my games. I can't even figure out why I would want to do so. Charging would simply make life harder for me as I'd feel obligated to accept any asshat willing to pay, etc. Not to mention I doubt it would make enough a year to justify the bookkeeping and tax issues.

I guess I simply  lack the desire to monetize everything I enjoy doing. Especially as I have discovered over the years that once money gets involved in something I have been doing for fun most of my enjoyment quickly goes away.

I have just returned from GMing a roomful of screaming teenagers for six hours, I do this for free just about every week and have run a gaming store part time at a loss for four years.

What bothers me is the disproportionate expense and effort the GM puts in while the players often contribute nothing.

What I would like is not so much a financial return as the kind of player buy-in that creates a stable group.

And I find myself thinking about the old saw that people don't appreciate or respect anything they don't pay for.

I've been feeling that way a lot lately for some reason.

I want players who are invested I guess.

Oh I've thought about the usual methods, manacles, chains, cattle prods, and hot irons but in the end it's just more time and money out of the GM's pocket.

Quote from: David Johansen;893929I have just returned from GMing a roomful of screaming teenagers for six hours, I do this for free just about every week and have run a gaming store part time at a loss for four years.

What bothers me is the disproportionate expense and effort the GM puts in while the players often contribute nothing.

What I would like is not so much a financial return as the kind of player buy-in that creates a stable group.

And I find myself thinking about the old saw that people don't appreciate or respect anything they don't pay for.

I've been feeling that way a lot lately for some reason.

I want players who are invested I guess.

Oh I've thought about the usual methods, manacles, chains, cattle prods, and hot irons but in the end it's just more time and money out of the GM's pocket.

Every group I've ever DMed for the players brought their own food. Ive never heard of the DM footing the bill for feeding the players. (or feeding them at all.) I might offer if I have something. But to date I've never had players demanding food.

I have though had the players bring over food and expect me to cook it. I'm pretty good at that. Also a good excuse to take a break and stretch. 6hour+ sessions.

Quote from: Omega;893986Every group I've ever DMed for the players brought their own food. Ive never heard of the DM footing the bill for feeding the players. (or feeding them at all.) I might offer if I have something. But to date I've never had players demanding food.

I have though had the players bring over food and expect me to cook it. I'm pretty good at that. Also a good excuse to take a break and stretch. 6hour+ sessions.

I bribed a DM with two litres of coke to let me play the character I wanted in his Star Wars campaign.  Belt Sandar washed up, alcoholic, holo video space hero.  He never took a bribe from me again.

Quote from: David Johansen;893988I bribed a DM with two litres of coke to let me play the character I wanted in his Star Wars campaign.  Belt Sandar washed up, alcoholic, holo video space hero.  He never took a bribe from me again.

Belt Sandar would have so fit into our Star Wars game.

Quote from: Ravenswing;893805... let's consider something else.  Tabletop gamers are cheap.

No, they aren't.  (You too, OG).  At least not as a universal.  You guys are clearly cheap, and I have no doubt that most of the people you play with are cheap.  But I live in an upper-middle-class, whitebread suburban city where the median gamer age is about mid-30's.  Spending multiple thousands of dollars a year on miniatures games, Pathfinder hardbacks, and board games is not unusual here for tabletop gamers.

One of the most rapidly expanding business models around here is board game cafes, where people pay a $5 cover to get into a cafe with tables, tons of games you can play, and light snacks you can buy.  Go once a week and you're paying more than $20/month just for a place to play and a game to play there. And these places are doing booming business.

Maybe, just maybe, a bunch of crusty old grognards with mediocre incomes isn't a good general description of tabletop gamers.  It isn't the 1980's any more.

Quote from: daniel_ream;894059One of the most rapidly expanding business models around here is board game cafes, where people pay a $5 cover to get into a cafe with tables, tons of games you can play, and light snacks you can buy.  Go once a week and you're paying more than $20/month just for a place to play and a game to play there. And these places are doing booming business.

We've got them around here, too. They even charge 5BGN (around $3) for entry:).

We're actually using one of them to stage the local mini-con, since they can't care any less what we play once we pay the entry ticket;).

QuoteMaybe, just maybe, a bunch of crusty old grognards with mediocre incomes isn't a good general description of tabletop gamers. It isn't the 1980's any more.

I don't think Ravenswing has a mediocre income, though. I think he just has the system and setting he intends to play.
Of course, I don't know anyone's income, except my own, and I have reasons to suspect that due to location-related reasons, it's the lowest one on the board:D!

Quote from: daniel_ream;894059No, they aren't.  (You too, OG).  At least not as a universal.  You guys are clearly cheap, and I have no doubt that most of the people you play with are cheap.  But I live in an upper-middle-class, whitebread suburban city where the median gamer age is about mid-30's.  Spending multiple thousands of dollars a year on miniatures games, Pathfinder hardbacks, and board games is not unusual here for tabletop gamers.

One of the most rapidly expanding business models around here is board game cafes, where people pay a $5 cover to get into a cafe with tables, tons of games you can play, and light snacks you can buy.  Go once a week and you're paying more than $20/month just for a place to play and a game to play there. And these places are doing booming business.

Maybe, just maybe, a bunch of crusty old grognards with mediocre incomes isn't a good general description of tabletop gamers.  It isn't the 1980's any more.

The typical adult model railroader is in his late 50s or early 60s, just like me.  The average spending is about $2000 a year.

I really don't count in the gamer demographic because I just don't spend money on games, I spend it on other things.

"Don't want to spend money" is not the same thing as "don't have money to spend."  I'll drop $80 for a digital control decoder with sound for a model locomotive without batting an eye, but I can't imagine a game that would get me to drop $80.

Actually, I dropped double that on Star Wars d20, and I dropped that much on the WoTC Star Wars starship miniatures until I discovered that the game for the miniatures is pure shit.

Quote from: daniel_ream;894059Maybe, just maybe, a bunch of crusty old grognards with mediocre incomes isn't a good general description of tabletop gamers.  It isn't the 1980's any more.

Maybe, just maybe, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.  Late 50s to retirement, the "Empty Nester" demographic, has a huge disposable income.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;894097Actually, I dropped double that on Star Wars d20, and I dropped that much on the WoTC Star Wars starship miniatures until I discovered that the game for the miniatures is pure shit.

No, I'm sorry, shit is still useful as fertilizer. It was worse than that.

Quote from: daniel_ream;894059One of the most rapidly expanding business models around here is board game cafes, where people pay a $5 cover to get into a cafe with tables, tons of games you can play, and light snacks you can buy.  Go once a week and you're paying more than $20/month just for a place to play and a game to play there. And these places are doing booming business.

Maybe, just maybe, a bunch of crusty old grognards with mediocre incomes isn't a good general description of tabletop gamers.  It isn't the 1980's any more.

Newflash for you Timmy. Gamers have been renting game space since probably before RPGs. For 5$ I could reserve a library meeting room for our weekly games for a month. And before that a previous local group had been doing the exact same for years before dispersing and I picked up.

Apparently that is how one or two conventions got started. Renting space to play.

Board gamers do the same and have been doing it quite a while as well. Used to be and still is that game stores had a gaming room in back. At least one D&D documentary shows that way back in the 80s and 90s.

Everyone pitch in for renting a meeting place? Sure.
Everyone pitch in for buying new supplements or modules? Sure. That goes way back.

Demanding every player everywhere to hand the DM 4-8$ a session because yours are mooching is asinine.

Though not as bad as a few designers who were demanding that the playtesters pay them for the honour of playtesting the game. Or publishers who make designers pay them for the wonderful privilege of having their game looked at. EVERY TIME THE GAME IS SUBMITTED IF REVISIONS ARE REQUESTED.

No. I am not joking. This has and is happening.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;893276What if it cost $15 a month to play D&D? The latest game rules could be read only electronically while logged into the D&D website. Would you pay to play the latest version? Or would you stay with 5e (or some other previous version) forever?

Absolutely zero interest in electronic access only for $15/month.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;894099Maybe, just maybe, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.  Late 50s to retirement, the "Empty Nester" demographic, has a huge disposable income.

Oh I wish.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;893276What if it cost $15 a month to play D&D? The latest game rules could be read only electronically while logged into the D&D website. Would you pay to play the latest version?

No, I would not.  Not a chance.

Eh, why the hell would I do that?  If it was to have an on call DM to run whenever I wanted, perhaps I'd give it a shot.  But if he/she was in a call center in India I'd probably cancel very quickly.  

I know some a guy over here in Asia who is trying to get an all English game started as a language class.  I think he is charging roughly $30 a 4 hour session per player, pricewise that is not too bad, but I am sure if it has caught on for him.

Quote from: AsenRG;894089I don't think Ravenswing has a mediocre income, though. I think he just has the system and setting he intends to play.

No, I see no reason not to be forthright: I'm pretty much broke.  I was when I started playing tabletop again in 2003, and a hobby for which I'd already owned thousands of dollars worth of gear (and had somewhat fortuitously let my fiancee talk me into not throwing it out) held attractions.

I do have the system and setting I intend to play, of course.  For those without Asen's superb memory (hell, he remembered in one thread that I had multiple cats, several months after I mentioned it offhand), I have been using just that setting and just that system for over 30 years, through good times and bad, from owning three houses to living in a shotgun flat to everything in between.  Expecting that to change is a mug's game.

Only a moron would imagine that income is all that much of a barrier against system-hopping.

Because Gronan's right, and Daniel doesn't know what he's talking about.  I never said gamers were broke.  I said they were cheap, and threads screaming about the Awful Cost Of Gaming have been common enough over the years for me to be in a sticky folder all their own in the saved threads bit on my hard drive.  Like this one. (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?75724-On-Gaming-Pricing&)  Or this one. (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?182630-RPG-s-dropped-10-25-in-2004!)  Or this one. (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?145121-Gurps-4E-74-dollars)  Or this one. (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?459279-Price-of-games-What-s-Reasonable)  How about this one? (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?489354-RPG-stuff-is-expensive-%28-%29)  Or this one? (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?429067-Tabletop-RPGs-The-Economicable-Hobby) ...

Claiming that it isn't there because one prefers to make snide cracks?  Eeesh.

Just some info: 4e had the disaster of the virtual table, and the DDI in general.  Wotc is well known for being stingy in pay (about 1/3 of industry average IIRC) and somewhat shortsighted with their digital offerings, even with products that are a literal printing press like MTGO.  Their support is atrocious and they never got 4e Digital off the ground.  I recall an interview with some of the staff e-developers that lamented that they were always two steps back on platform selection: .net and a platform that was abandoned by MS half way through.  By about 2009 or so (or whenever the iPad was released), they stated they could not have tablet support as they were still tied to MS even after they switched development platforms right before mobile took over.   They even shut off access to the free portions of DDI right when the "evergreen" new player friendly 4e Red Box and Essentials line was released.  All the people involved in that decision should have been immediately fired.

Their bad practices go all the way back to the out of house developed 2e Tools collection that was generally functional and is still useful to lots of folks.  Of course, Wotc kicked that team to the curb with their 3e Tools and they have never gotten back up to speed.  IIRC MTGO was developed out of house, but Wotc folded it back in and it has never been as stable as it was before.  

Wotc seems to have spun off D&D digital development again so maybe there is hope yet.

At the moment? No way.

Now if they would want to pay me $15 a month to play it I would have to reconsider.

Quote from: Ravenswing;894199I never said gamers were broke.  I said they were cheap, and threads screaming about the Awful Cost Of Gaming have been common enough over the years for me to be in a sticky folder all their own in the saved threads bit on my hard drive.  Like this one. (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?75724-On-Gaming-Pricing&)  Or this one. (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?182630-RPG-s-dropped-10-25-in-2004!)  Or this one. (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?145121-Gurps-4E-74-dollars)  Or this one. (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?459279-Price-of-games-What-s-Reasonable)  How about this one? (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?489354-RPG-stuff-is-expensive-%28-%29)  Or this one? (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?429067-Tabletop-RPGs-The-Economicable-Hobby) ...

All you've demonstrated is that gamers like to complain about how expensive the hobby is.  You haven't demonstrated one way or another that they won't spend money on it, and the two are not correlated.

There's a another thread on this very site that indicates that many of the responders are spending multiple hundreds to multiple thousands of dollars per year on gaming, and this site self-selects against Pathfinder, 4E and miniatures gamers, groups which have a lot of overlap and IME trend towards the upper end of the annual expenditures histogram.

Quote from: Ravenswing;894199
  I never said gamers were broke.  I said they were cheap, and threads screaming about the Awful Cost Of Gaming have been common enough over the years for me to be in a sticky folder all their own in the saved threads bit on my hard drive.  Like this one. (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?75724-On-Gaming-Pricing&)  Or this one. (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?182630-RPG-s-dropped-10-25-in-2004!)  Or this one. (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?145121-Gurps-4E-74-dollars)  Or this one. (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?459279-Price-of-games-What-s-Reasonable)  How about this one? (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?489354-RPG-stuff-is-expensive-%28-%29)  Or this one? (https://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?429067-Tabletop-RPGs-The-Economicable-Hobby) ...

Why are all your examples only from one source, RPG.net?

What I have seen about 5e doesn´t look worth 15$ once for me...

Quote from: jeff37923;894376Why are all your examples only from one source, RPG.net?

Because (a) I was active on TBP for nearly a decade and several thousand posts, (b) I saved a lot more of my own posts to threads then than I have in the last couple years, so that (c) When I went Googling for pertinent threads, I had text strings to do it with, because (d) I wasn't going to spend hours hunting and pecking through entire site histories for an ephemeral Interwebz discussion that none of us will remember two weeks from now.

That being said ...

Quote from: daniel_ream;894355All you've demonstrated is that gamers like to complain about how expensive the hobby is.  You haven't demonstrated one way or another that they won't spend money on it, and the two are not correlated.

There's a another thread on this very site that indicates that many of the responders are spending multiple hundreds to multiple thousands of dollars per year on gaming, and this site self-selects against Pathfinder, 4E and miniatures gamers, groups which have a lot of overlap and IME trend towards the upper end of the annual expenditures histogram.

... let me get this straight.  You're inferring that this forum is more representative of the RPG base than TBP is?  I'm thinking myself that if I draw conclusions, I'm going to go with the site that has fifty times the traffic this one does, whatever TBP's other bumps and warts.

In any event, judging from the overwhelming hostility to the premise in this thread, I've got a whole lot more reason to think that tabletop gamers aren't going to pony up to a pay-for-play model than you have any evidence to the contrary.

Quote from: Ravenswing;894509... let me get this straight.  You're inferring that this forum is more representative of the RPG base than TBP is?  I'm thinking myself that if I draw conclusions, I'm going to go with the site that has fifty times the traffic this one does, whatever TBP's other bumps and warts.

No online forum is likely truly representative of the entire tabletop RPG player base as most tabletop RPG players are not active in any forum on the Internet. All you can really say is that some forums are more representative of those players who participate in online forums than other forums. The relatively low numbers of tabletop RPG players who actually participate in forums makes trying to base what tabletop RPG players as a whole want from online forum posts a pretty bad idea.  All you find out is what those willing to participate in internet forums think with no idea if that is also representative of the majority of players who do not read, let alone post, in online forums.

Quote from: Ravenswing;894509... let me get this straight.  You're inferring that this forum is more representative of the RPG base than TBP is?  I'm thinking myself that if I draw conclusions, I'm going to go with the site that has fifty times the traffic this one does, whatever TBP's other bumps and warts.

I inferred no such thing.  I outright stated that asking how much people spend on games in a year is going to be a much more effective way of establishing how "cheap" they are than how much they complain on forums.  Is basic logical argument that hard for you?

QuoteIn any event, judging from the overwhelming hostility to the premise in this thread, I've got a whole lot more reason to think that tabletop gamers aren't going to pony up to a pay-for-play model than you have any evidence to the contrary.

That may well be.  But since it's a boutique service that's being described (and let's be clear I'm talking about David Johansen's concierge GM model, not the pay-to-access-the-rules-text model), it really doesn't matter how many people on this board hate it.  It only matters that enough people out in the real world are willing to pay for it.  Based on my observations of the crowd down the local hobby shop, I think there's a potential market there.

I hear there are a few posters over at rpg.net who happen to play rpgs, but that's probably just a rumor.

Quote from: Teazia;894201Just some info: 4e had the disaster of the virtual table, and the DDI in general.  Wotc is well known for being stingy in pay (about 1/3 of industry average IIRC) and somewhat shortsighted with their digital offerings, even with products that are a literal printing press like MTGO.  Their support is atrocious and they never got 4e Digital off the ground.  I recall an interview with some of the staff e-developers that lamented that they were always two steps back on platform selection: .net and a platform that was abandoned by MS half way through.  By about 2009 or so (or whenever the iPad was released), they stated they could not have tablet support as they were still tied to MS even after they switched development platforms right before mobile took over.   They even shut off access to the free portions of DDI right when the "evergreen" new player friendly 4e Red Box and Essentials line was released.  All the people involved in that decision should have been immediately fired.

Their bad practices go all the way back to the out of house developed 2e Tools collection that was generally functional and is still useful to lots of folks.  Of course, Wotc kicked that team to the curb with their 3e Tools and they have never gotten back up to speed.  IIRC MTGO was developed out of house, but Wotc folded it back in and it has never been as stable as it was before.  

Wotc seems to have spun off D&D digital development again so maybe there is hope yet.

The mistake seems to be those who believe that there's got to be some way to make table top more like MMORPGs, with either a subscription or a microtransaction model to play. Which is a demonstration of a fundamental misunderstanding of what rpgs are.

Clubs, places to play, accessories, rulebooks, manuals, dice, etc, etc, etc, muh wallet! Are another thing entirely.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;894597I hear there are a few posters over at rpg.net who happen to play rpgs, but that's probably just a rumor.

Yes. The LARP supsection.

Quote from: Ratman_tf;894599The mistake seems to be those who believe that there's got to be some way to make table top more like MMORPGs, with either a subscription or a microtransaction model to play. Which is a demonstration of a fundamental misunderstanding of what rpgs are.

Clubs, places to play, accessories, rulebooks, manuals, dice, etc, etc, etc, muh wallet! Are another thing entirely.

And not just RPG as I noted somewhere above.

This is not new though. Also as noted somewhere above.

And yes everyone chipping in to rent a meeting room or buy new modules, dice etc is very different from the DM just charging the players some exorberant fee just to play the game or because the DM feels the players owe him him allowing them to mooch food.

Quote from: Omega;894662And yes everyone chipping in to rent a meeting room or buy new modules, dice etc is very different from the DM just charging the players some exorberant fee just to play the game or because the DM feels the players owe him him allowing them to mooch food.

Regardless of the merits or viability of table top pay-to-play, in the grand scheme of things in the Western world, $15/session is hardly exorbitant. Partner rates at the big four accounting firms on the other hand...

Quote from: David Johansen;893857Okay, sure, nice maps and character sheets and handouts and props, whatever.

But let's flip it around, would you like to be able to charge $15 a session per player?  People who want it monthly at that rate are being a bit silly.  The GM's probably spending $15 per session.

I wouldn't GM for people who'd pay me $15 a month, being that they are clearly missing the point of the hobby. This would be a killer to the social element of RPGs, brutal and swift, if someone tried to institute this as norm.

Quote from: daniel_ream;894059No, they aren't.  (You too, OG).  At least not as a universal.  You guys are clearly cheap, and I have no doubt that most of the people you play with are cheap.  But I live in an upper-middle-class, whitebread suburban city where the median gamer age is about mid-30's.  Spending multiple thousands of dollars a year on miniatures games, Pathfinder hardbacks, and board games is not unusual here for tabletop gamers.

One of the most rapidly expanding business models around here is board game cafes, where people pay a $5 cover to get into a cafe with tables, tons of games you can play, and light snacks you can buy.  Go once a week and you're paying more than $20/month just for a place to play and a game to play there. And these places are doing booming business.

Maybe, just maybe, a bunch of crusty old grognards with mediocre incomes isn't a good general description of tabletop gamers.  It isn't the 1980's any more.

Not cheap here, but I am still careful to make sure I get value for my buck.

Paying $5 for access to a comfortabe area for gaming is certainly doable (attempts to do so locally failed, but NM is a depressed market for this sort of stuff, and I couldn't be bothered when all the other FLGSs in town offered the same space for free). They are not, however, paying for the game, but for the space. That's very different, and has value to it. For a game to have value, it has to provide something that is more significant and impressive than what you can get with friends at home using the dinner table for free.

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;893276What if it cost $15 a month to play D&D? The latest game rules could be read only electronically while logged into the D&D website. Would you pay to play the latest version? Or would you stay with 5e (or some other previous version) forever?

Your thread title is misleading...I thought someone was offering to pay me $15/month to play D&D, to which my answer was "not enough unless that's for half an hour."

Quote from: David Johansen;893929I have just returned from GMing a roomful of screaming teenagers for six hours, I do this for free just about every week and have run a gaming store part time at a loss for four years.

What bothers me is the disproportionate expense and effort the GM puts in while the players often contribute nothing.

What I would like is not so much a financial return as the kind of player buy-in that creates a stable group.

And I find myself thinking about the old saw that people don't appreciate or respect anything they don't pay for.

I've been feeling that way a lot lately for some reason.

I want players who are invested I guess.

Oh I've thought about the usual methods, manacles, chains, cattle prods, and hot irons but in the end it's just more time and money out of the GM's pocket.

You must be doing it wrong. being a GM has never cost me a penny.

I just saw this thread and thought I'd chime in.

I don't have any sort of numbers or even guesses at the numbers, but I have been messaged or emailed by at least a few people who have suggested that we should offer an option to subscribe for a lower monthly fee to get access to all the D&D 5E content on Fantasy Grounds instead of only having the option to buy it at the listed price. I have so far assumed that it would probably only appeal to a small fraction of the market and would end up just causing confusion on the different options available.

I generally don't like subscriptions as a consumer and yet I find that I have a couple now for things like Adobe products. I would much rather have the option to buy it once, even if it meant that I might have to turn around and buy an upgrade at a later date. With that said, not everyone can afford to buy everything up front and a lower monthly cost lets them get into it sooner without having to save up a bunch of money first. It has an added benefit that you don't end up dropping $300 on something that you decide isn't for you 2 months later. With a subscription service, it would have only cost you 2 months worth of the sub.

From the business side, having a base of monthly subscribers is a big benefit and it helps with budgeting and projections. Even if all your subscribers could theoretically cancel their subs in one month, it's still much easier to look at that and decide that you can safely hire another person or invest in some new . Pricing a sub correctly can be tricky. For the Fantasy Grounds Ultimate license subscription, we decided to go with a 15 month comparison. If you subscribe for more than 15 months, you would have been better off buying it outright. We do see some people who stop and start their subs though, so they probably go longer. We have still more people that sub merely as a means to support a company that they like. They have plenty of money to buy whatever they need outright but they like the idea of providing us with money each month to ensure that we are still here working on making things better years down the road. I've been told this by a good number of our subscribers.

-Doug

I would not.