For anyone interested in this that hasn't chipped in yet. It's got about 30 minutes left. The print package includes three hardcover settings, a hardcover expansion rulebook, a hardcover novel and three card decks. The expanded rulebook is a pledge level short of being increased in size to 160 pp. from the  current 128pp.

Quote from: Paraguybrarian;888158I never really viewed the decline a GM Intrusion with an XP rule as being narrative, mainly because the player doesn't actually fill in what happens as a result of the refusal, but I can see how it might be interpreted in that way. But, as you said, even then it's easily removed. Kind of like removing cyphers themselves if you don't like the risk of gonzo in your game. It is really quite a modular system, even in areas where the creator didn't intend it to be.

The cool thing about GM Intrusions is that they're an amazingly versatile tool for the GM.

One of the many things you can do with them (if you want to) is to give your players any degree of narrative control that you want them to have. But if you don't like your players to have narrative control? Just don't use GM Instrusions in that way. Ta-da!

I walk about this at more length in the Art of GM Instrusions.

Quote from: CRKrueger;888297Read all the XP rules.  You provide mechanics to allow a player to make narrative declarations that become true in the setting, then yeah, you get the tag "narrative game" to differentiate you from games that do not do that.

I'll call it a nRPG if that will make it go down easier.

Are you referring to the ability to spend exp to refuse a GM intrusion*?

*I don't really like that name.

Quote from: Paraguybrarian;888158I never really viewed the decline a GM Intrusion with an XP rule as being narrative, mainly because the player doesn't actually fill in what happens as a result of the refusal, but I can see how it might be interpreted in that way.

I agree. I'd call it a Disassociated mechanic more than a Narrative one.

Quote from: Nexus;888963Are you referring to the ability to spend exp to refuse a GM intrusion*?

*I don't really like that name.

Heh, from an IC immersive perspective, that name is the most honestly described mechanic in RPG history.

In part, it's intrusions. I'm also referring to...page 111 Short and Medium Term Benefits.

Quote from: NumeneraMedium-term benefits are usually story based.
For example, a character can spend 2 XP while climbing through mountains and say that she has experience with climbing in regions like these, or perhaps she spends the XP after she's been in the mountains for a while and says that she's picked up the feel for climbing there. Either way, from now on, she is trained in climbing in those mountains. This helps her now and any time she returns to the area, but she's not trained in climbing everywhere.
This method allows a character to get immediate training in a skill for half the normal cost.

Ok, so I'm going through the mountains, I decide that I'm gonna need climbing skills, but I don't have it, nor do I have the amount of experience necessary to learn the skill (4xp).  So, as a player, I declare that my character came from a type of mountain just like these, spend 2xp, and now I have the skill (only for those mountains-and you could argue, the ones at home too).

Practically textbook Narrative Control mechanic.  The player states something about the world, makes a decision the character can not make...and the expenditure of a resource (in this case XP) allows the change to occur.  Now, this particular type of Narrative Control is limited to only things the character knows, but that doesn't change what it is...essentially a literary device.

Some previously unknown fact gets brought up about a character in order to conveniently get them out of the trouble or situation they are in.   It's a subtle form of Deus Ex Machina.

Quote from: CRKrueger;889175In part, I'm also referring to...page 111 Short and Medium Term Benefits.

Oh, okay, I haven't seen this in The Strange yet.

Quote from: Nexus;889178Oh, okay, I haven't seen this in The Strange yet.

Same section, pretty much word for word, page 123.
Cypher System has this on page 222.

Cypher System Rulebook also has another mechanic that isn't in the Strange, Gaining Insight.

Quote from: Cypher System RulebookIf a character is thinking about a plan, doing research, gathering information, casing a job, or scouting ahead, she can spend 3 Intellect points and one action to gain a single bit of special knowledge from the GM that she can count on with certainty. Insights are always presented as absolutes, and once established, they should never be changed, unless it is through the direct and deliberate intervention of the PCs.

But, it also says that...

Quote from: Cypher System RulebookUltimately, the GM decides each Insight's revelation, so there's no chance that the PCs will gain too much information (if such a thing is even possible).

So, you could argue that the character is just spending a whole lot of mental effort into figuring stuff out and their Insight is one of those sideways leaps of logic.  A couple of examples that they give in the book are not really of this type though, and more like "Buying a fact that helps".  In any case, the Immutable Truth of the Insight is the issue there from an immersive perspective.

Quote from: CRKrueger;889270Same section, pretty much word for word, page 123.

Thanks.The section with rules for refusing GM Intrusions is also earlier on in the opening section with basic game info.

Quote from: CRKrueger;889270Same section, pretty much word for word, page 123.
Cypher System has this on page 222.

Cypher System Rulebook also has another mechanic that isn't in the Strange, Gaining Insight.



But, it also says that...
So, you could argue that the character is just spending a whole lot of mental effort into figuring stuff out and their Insight is one of those sideways leaps of logic.  A couple of examples that they give in the book are not really of this type though, and more like "Buying a fact that helps".  In any case, the Immutable Truth of the Insight is the issue there from an immersive perspective.

But its the GM that comes up with Fact not the player?

Quote from: Nexus;889274I wasn't saying it wasn't there. I just haven't read it yet.

I didn't take that as a challenge, just giving you the page so you can read for yourself if you cared to.

Quote from: Nexus;889275But its the GM that comes up with Fact not the player?

For the Insight, yes. The GM provides the fact, so it's the perfect place to pass along those hints the GM thinks the characters would figure out even if the players didn't.  The "Absolute Truth" part is a little heavy handed though.

Quote from: CRKrueger;888025So, some seriously cool shit, if you like the Cypher system (I don't).

People tolerate the Cypher System because Monte's name is on the cover. See hero worship.

Quote from: CRKrueger;889277I didn't take that as a challenge, just giving you the page so you can read for yourself if you cared to.

On a second read I thought I may have been too defensive. Edited the post accordingly. These Narrative/Not Narrative threads blow up so fast I jumped the gun.

Quote from: CRKrueger;889175Practically textbook Narrative Control mechanic.  The player states something about the world, makes a decision the character can not make...and the expenditure of a resource (in this case XP) allows the change to occur.  Now, this particular type of Narrative Control is limited to only things the character knows, but that doesn't change what it is...essentially a literary device.

This is definitely dissociated, but I'm not really seeing it as a matter of narrative control. (For much the same reason that I don't interpret any character creation mechanics or systems in which you spend XP to improve your character as narrative control. Control over the creation, definition, and advancement of your character isn't exactly unusual.)

Even the mid-session aspect of it isn't particularly unusual. Lots of point-buy games have a "you can hold onto some of your points and then spend them later to reveal previously unknown abilities". I even recall GURPS having that as an option.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;889290This is definitely dissociated, but I'm not really seeing it as a matter of narrative control. (For much the same reason that I don't interpret any character creation mechanics or systems in which you spend XP to improve your character as narrative control. Control over the creation, definition, and advancement of your character isn't exactly unusual.)

Even the mid-session aspect of it isn't particularly unusual. Lots of point-buy games have a "you can hold onto some of your points and then spend them later to reveal previously unknown abilities". I even recall GURPS having that as an option.

It's the timing.  The retroactive application changes it from character advancement to literary device.  True, you're only declaring something about your character, and not the world at large, but you're instantaneously gaining a ret-conned skill.  I kind of doubt it's all that common in "lots of point-buy games", but even if it were, that wouldn't change what it's letting you do and why.