Well, Monte and bunch have had Numenera, and The Strange out for a while, they even came out with a book detailing the system for both, the Cypher System, but now Cypher is joining the club (Fate, Cortex, 2d20) of "New School Signature Narrative House Systems Used for Everything" with the latest Kickstarter. (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/montecookgames/worlds-of-the-cypher-system?ref=thanks)
This KS isn't for one game, it's for three different games, all using the Cypher System.
Gods of the Fall - You play gods. Now Exalted players will have a second sane option they can play (without having to take a shower afterward) besides Godbound.
Predation - You go back in Time. You're stuck in the past with Dinosaurs in the Cretaceous Period. You have super science to gengineer dinos and control them. Basically yeah, distilled awesome. Oh, and you know that asteroid is coming to end it all... Also if you care about this sort of thing, this one is written by Shanna Germain, the sex-positive feminist partner of Monte Cook that RPG.net actually silenced out of the thread of her own game by locking it the second she showed up.
Unmasked - Horror Supers. You suffer from a form of insanity, Dissociative Mask Disorder. You think that by placing a mask on, you gain super-powers...and you do...but the mask also unlocks the darker sides of yourself.
So, some seriously cool shit, if you like the Cypher system (I don't). Looks like the art is off the scale on this one thanks to KS. With 3 days to go, they've raised almost 200k.
With all the other KS's going, this one has kind of been under the radar here, so figured someone should point it out, especially since we have a lot of Exalted/Godbound fans.
$50 is the "PDF all in" Pledge Level.
After running (and occasionally playing) this for the past year, I don't believe that the Cypher System is a narrative game--as typified by Fate and PbtA games--at all. The spending of pool points is all about resource management, not about narrative editing. Narrative control is firmly in the GM's hands. I'll make the caveat that the optional Asset Deck that was funded by this kickstarter will add some minor player narrative control in almost exactly the way Torg's drama deck does. I'd say that Cypher is a traditional game in spite of it's creator's attempt to market it to new schoolers. But it's definitely not for everyone.
The KS has done well enough that everyone will get quite a bit of loot, though. I'd recommend it to people who like the idea of Fate, but don't like Fate itself.
Huh. I still want to run Cypher some day.
If Numenera didn't feel so meh, I already would have.
The narrative play aspect can easily be removed as it is only one rule. After that it is just gain xp to purchase things.
Quote from: The Butcher;888093Huh. I still want to run Cypher some day.
If Numenera didn't feel so meh, I already would have.
The settings sound cool I think, but the system, yeah, another convention game I'd run to take a break from roleplaying.
Quote from: CRKrueger;888025Well, Monte and bunch have had Numenera, and The Strange out for a while, they even came out with a book detailing the system for both, the Cypher System, but now Cypher is joining the club (Fate, Cortex, 2d20) of "New School Signature Narrative House Systems Used for Everything"
Cypher System is considered Narrative?
QuotePredation - You go back in Time. You're stuck in the past with Dinosaurs in the Cretaceous Period. You have super science to gengineer dinos and control them. Basically yeah, distilled awesome. Oh, and you know that asteroid is coming to end it all... Also if you care about this sort of thing, this one is written by Shanna Germain, the sex-positive feminist partner of Monte Cook that RPG.net actually silenced out of the thread of her own game by locking it the second she showed up.
What happened there?
Quote from: The Butcher;888093Huh. I still want to run Cypher some day.
If Numenera didn't feel so meh, I already would have.
My perspective is just about the opposite of this. I find the Numenera setting intriguing, but I find the Cypher system obnoxious.
Quote from: Snowman0147;888097The narrative play aspect can easily be removed as it is only one rule. After that it is just gain xp to purchase things.
I never really viewed the decline a GM Intrusion with an XP rule as being narrative, mainly because the player doesn't actually fill in what happens as a result of the refusal, but I can see how it might be interpreted in that way. But, as you said, even then it's easily removed. Kind of like removing cyphers themselves if you don't like the risk of gonzo in your game. It is really quite a modular system, even in areas where the creator didn't intend it to be.
I love Numenera and the Cypher System, so I naturally backed this. I only pledged for the Gods of the Fall PDF, since it's the only setting I have use for, but the others look cool.
Quote from: Caesar Slaad;888146My perspective is just about the opposite of this. I find the Numenera setting intriguing, but I find the Cypher system obnoxious.
I've expounded on my reservations about the setting in the past, so if you don't mind me quoting myself:
Quote from: The Butcher;860884Numenera: Monte: "Hey Butch, let's play a New Sun sort of science fantasy RPG." Me: "Fuck yeah, let's do this!" Monte: "I'l bring the super abstract, unintuitive newfangled game engine and the artwork that doesn't really fit the setting as described, and you can bring the New Sun science fantasy bits." Me: "..." Monte: "OK, OK, here's a weird megastructure that doesn't really do anything."
Maybe I've been spoiled rotten by the OSR, but I yearn for the not-in-Kansas-anymore feel in the vein of Clark Ashton Smith, Jack Vance and Gene Wolfe.
As for the system itself, we played it only once and barely rolled the dice. Based on what I've read, I'm not sure it's a storygame, even if it touts itself as a "narrative" centric game (see: Apocalypse World). My concern is that it may be a tad too abstract. But I really want to give it a fair shake.
Quote from: Nexus;888121Cypher System is considered Narrative?
Read all the XP rules. You provide mechanics to allow a player to make narrative declarations that become true in the setting, then yeah, you get the tag "narrative game" to differentiate you from games that
do not do that.
I'll call it a nRPG if that will make it go down easier. :D
Quote from: Nexus;888121What happened there?
The "WTF Monte!" thread about the Nibovian Wife.
Post#547 in that thread...
Quote from: Shanna GermainIt makes me incredibly sad that someone did that to her and I'm ashamed that the person who said those things seems to be a Numenera fan. Whether people like or hate the game that we created, whether they like or hate the creatures we designed -- that is of course their prerogative and they should feel safe giving their opinion, no matter what it might be.
Monte and I are very aware of the current sexism/gender/sexuality issues in the gaming industry. We tried to carefully think through every element of the game in that regard. It was very important to us to create a world that didn't ignore sex, gender or sexual orientation -- anyone who's familiar with my past work knows this about me already, and Monte and I had a lot of conversations about how to include these topics in a real way even in an unreal world. In the Ninth World, sexuality and gender are both celebrated and used for nefarious purposes, just like in today's world. Anyone looking through the art and setting material will find a wide range of genders, and sexualities represented and embraced.
On the other hand, the Ninth World isn't today's culture. The creatures of the Ninth World are supposed to be scary monsters who want to take everything we (and our characters) hold dear and crush it. To me, the Nibovian wives epitomize that. They SHOULD scare and freak the fuck out of characters, for a whole variety of reasons. Numenera isn't the kind of game where we make people feel safe and secure. It's the kind of game where horrible monsters do horrible things to people -- that's why they're monsters.
On the other hand, if you find the creatures boring instead of scary, don't use them in the game. Or don't play it. There are a thousand great games out there. And isn't that supposed to be the point of gaming anyway? To have fun? If you're not having fun, maybe it's time to play a game you like better.
Of course, completely sane response.
Prokopetz accuses her of "marginalizing him", she rightly corrects him. Critias of Catalyst throws some resistance to Prokopetz and Topher's ongoing narrative, and a couple other people agree, at which point Emprint shuts it down before the Doctors can take control of the Asylum and Ettin pops in to gloat and declare Zak S. permabanned. Good times.
So in a thread about the terrible things Numenera was doing to women, the female author of Numenera pops in and the thread is dead in less than 12 posts.
Quote from: The Butcher;888287I've expounded on my reservations about the setting in the past, so if you don't mind me quoting myself:
Maybe I've been spoiled rotten by the OSR, but I yearn for the not-in-Kansas-anymore feel in the vein of Clark Ashton Smith, Jack Vance and Gene Wolfe.
As for the system itself, we played it only once and barely rolled the dice. Based on what I've read, I'm not sure it's a storygame, even if it touts itself as a "narrative" centric game (see: Apocalypse World). My concern is that it may be a tad too abstract. But I really want to give it a fair shake.
The level of abstraction is my beef with it too. And how for being so abstract it seems strangely restrictive at the same time. Its a chore to work out some thing and concepts that have been easy in others games if an author hasn't included the idea. But my group isn't big on character classes and similar mechanics and Cypher's descriptors and foci feel allot like a version of that except more restrictive.
Quote from: CRKrueger;888297Read all the XP rules. You provide mechanics to allow a player to make narrative declarations that become true in the setting, then yeah, you get the tag "narrative game" to differentiate you from games that do not do that.
I'll call it a nRPG if that will make it go down easier.
It doesn't bother me either way I just hadn't heard Cypher put in that category. We've just scratched the surface of the system in play and barely rolled dice (mainly none of us seem to like it) so we really hadn't reach that point in the rules so so far play seemed pretty "traditional" if clunky so we where planning to switch to Hero or perhaps GURPs.
QuoteThe "WTF Monte!" thread about the Nibovian Wife.
Post#547 in that thread...
Of course, completely sane response.
Prokopetz accuses her of "marginalizing him", she rightly corrects him. Critias of Catalyst throws some resistance to Prokopetz and Topher's ongoing narrative, and a couple other people agree, at which point Emprint shuts it down before the Doctors can take control of the Asylum and Ettin pops in to gloat and declare Zak S. permabanned. Good times.
So in a thread about the terrible things Numenera was doing to women, the female author of Numenera pops in and the thread is dead in less than 12 posts.
Classic TBP.
Thanks for the rundown.
Quote from: The Butcher;888287I've expounded on my reservations about the setting in the past, so if you don't mind me quoting myself:
Whatever you need to do. I'm not here to sell you on what isn't working for you.
QuoteMaybe I've been spoiled rotten by the OSR, but I yearn for the not-in-Kansas-anymore feel in the vein of Clark Ashton Smith, Jack Vance and Gene Wolfe.
I'm an absurdly large CAS and Vance fan, which is why this appealed. But you do his one one point of interest here:
Quotehere's a weird megastructure that doesn't really do anything
:D
Heh. If there's one bit of philosophy I've parted with, it's the apparent philosophy of "just make some weird shit up and don't worry about where it comes from because is AAAALIEN..." To me, thinking about why this stuff got here and is doing this stuff is high octane campaign idea fuel. Heck, the dumb Nibovian wives thread got me thinking about why these creatures even exist (short version: a targeted bioweapon that, much like nexus 6's, decided it wanted to outlive its mandated EOL.) It that sort of campaign setting that gets my mind racing that gets me chuffed about running games in it.
One of these days I'm going to do a demo that shows that Cyphers play their part in the system as a narrative speed control. In the hands of the players they can choose to expend the 3 tiers of cypher things. Powers/skills are auto refreshers that never go away, artifact are items that have lasting narrative power but will eventually be cycled out, and cyphers are the common one off narrative short cuts like power boosts, magic items, or even luck mechanics other games use.
A better title for all Cypher system games should be a narrative resource game. It's all about cost/reward with little system mastery beyond knowing how to play the story YOU like that matters.
It's why the Quadratic Wizard, Linear Fighter issues doesn't impact Cypher games as much, because the way the difficulty management works.
For anyone interested in this that hasn't chipped in yet. It's got about 30 minutes left. The print package includes three hardcover settings, a hardcover expansion rulebook, a hardcover novel and three card decks. The expanded rulebook is a pledge level short of being increased in size to 160 pp. from the current 128pp.
Quote from: Paraguybrarian;888158I never really viewed the decline a GM Intrusion with an XP rule as being narrative, mainly because the player doesn't actually fill in what happens as a result of the refusal, but I can see how it might be interpreted in that way. But, as you said, even then it's easily removed. Kind of like removing cyphers themselves if you don't like the risk of gonzo in your game. It is really quite a modular system, even in areas where the creator didn't intend it to be.
The cool thing about GM Intrusions is that they're an amazingly versatile tool for the GM.
One of the many things you can do with them (if you want to) is to give your players any degree of narrative control that you want them to have. But if you don't like your players to have narrative control? Just don't use GM Instrusions in that way. Ta-da!
I walk about this at more length in the Art of GM Instrusions (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/35499/roleplaying-games/numenera-the-art-of-gm-intrusions).
Quote from: CRKrueger;888297Read all the XP rules. You provide mechanics to allow a player to make narrative declarations that become true in the setting, then yeah, you get the tag "narrative game" to differentiate you from games that do not do that.
I'll call it a nRPG if that will make it go down easier. :D
Are you referring to the ability to spend exp to refuse a GM intrusion*?
*I don't really like that name.
Quote from: Paraguybrarian;888158I never really viewed the decline a GM Intrusion with an XP rule as being narrative, mainly because the player doesn't actually fill in what happens as a result of the refusal, but I can see how it might be interpreted in that way.
I agree. I'd call it a Disassociated mechanic more than a Narrative one.
Quote from: Nexus;888963Are you referring to the ability to spend exp to refuse a GM intrusion*?
*I don't really like that name.
Heh, from an IC immersive perspective, that name is the most honestly described mechanic in RPG history.
In part, it's intrusions. I'm also referring to...page 111 Short and Medium Term Benefits.
Quote from: NumeneraMedium-term benefits are usually story based.
For example, a character can spend 2 XP while climbing through mountains and say that she has experience with climbing in regions like these, or perhaps she spends the XP after she's been in the mountains for a while and says that she's picked up the feel for climbing there. Either way, from now on, she is trained in climbing in those mountains. This helps her now and any time she returns to the area, but she's not trained in climbing everywhere.
This method allows a character to get immediate training in a skill for half the normal cost.
Ok, so I'm going through the mountains, I decide that I'm gonna need climbing skills, but I don't have it, nor do I have the amount of experience necessary to learn the skill (4xp). So, as a player, I declare that my character came from a type of mountain just like these, spend 2xp, and now I have the skill (only for those mountains-and you could argue, the ones at home too).
Practically textbook Narrative Control mechanic. The player states something about the world, makes a decision the character can not make...and the expenditure of a resource (in this case XP) allows the change to occur. Now, this particular type of Narrative Control is limited to only things the character knows, but that doesn't change what it is...essentially a literary device.
Some previously unknown fact gets brought up about a character in order to conveniently get them out of the trouble or situation they are in. It's a subtle form of Deus Ex Machina.
Quote from: CRKrueger;889175In part, I'm also referring to...page 111 Short and Medium Term Benefits.
Oh, okay, I haven't seen this in The Strange yet.
Quote from: Nexus;889178Oh, okay, I haven't seen this in The Strange yet.
Same section, pretty much word for word, page 123.
Cypher System has this on page 222.
Cypher System Rulebook also has another mechanic that isn't in the Strange, Gaining Insight.
Quote from: Cypher System RulebookIf a character is thinking about a plan, doing research, gathering information, casing a job, or scouting ahead, she can spend 3 Intellect points and one action to gain a single bit of special knowledge from the GM that she can count on with certainty. Insights are always presented as absolutes, and once established, they should never be changed, unless it is through the direct and deliberate intervention of the PCs.
But, it also says that...
Quote from: Cypher System RulebookUltimately, the GM decides each Insight's revelation, so there's no chance that the PCs will gain too much information (if such a thing is even possible).
So, you could argue that the character is just spending a whole lot of mental effort into figuring stuff out and their Insight is one of those sideways leaps of logic. A couple of examples that they give in the book are not really of this type though, and more like "Buying a fact that helps". In any case, the Immutable Truth of the Insight is the issue there from an immersive perspective.
Quote from: CRKrueger;889270Same section, pretty much word for word, page 123.
Thanks.The section with rules for refusing GM Intrusions is also earlier on in the opening section with basic game info.
Quote from: CRKrueger;889270Same section, pretty much word for word, page 123.
Cypher System has this on page 222.
Cypher System Rulebook also has another mechanic that isn't in the Strange, Gaining Insight.
But, it also says that...
So, you could argue that the character is just spending a whole lot of mental effort into figuring stuff out and their Insight is one of those sideways leaps of logic. A couple of examples that they give in the book are not really of this type though, and more like "Buying a fact that helps". In any case, the Immutable Truth of the Insight is the issue there from an immersive perspective.
But its the GM that comes up with Fact not the player?
Quote from: Nexus;889274I wasn't saying it wasn't there. I just haven't read it yet.
I didn't take that as a challenge, just giving you the page so you can read for yourself if you cared to.
Quote from: Nexus;889275But its the GM that comes up with Fact not the player?
For the Insight, yes. The GM provides the fact, so it's the perfect place to pass along those hints the GM thinks the characters would figure out even if the players didn't. The "Absolute Truth" part is a little heavy handed though.
Quote from: CRKrueger;888025So, some seriously cool shit, if you like the Cypher system (I don't).
People tolerate the Cypher System because Monte's name is on the cover. See hero worship.
Quote from: CRKrueger;889277I didn't take that as a challenge, just giving you the page so you can read for yourself if you cared to.
On a second read I thought I may have been too defensive. Edited the post accordingly. These Narrative/Not Narrative threads blow up so fast I jumped the gun.
Quote from: CRKrueger;889175Practically textbook Narrative Control mechanic. The player states something about the world, makes a decision the character can not make...and the expenditure of a resource (in this case XP) allows the change to occur. Now, this particular type of Narrative Control is limited to only things the character knows, but that doesn't change what it is...essentially a literary device.
This is definitely dissociated, but I'm not really seeing it as a matter of narrative control. (For much the same reason that I don't interpret any character creation mechanics or systems in which you spend XP to improve your character as narrative control. Control over the creation, definition, and advancement of your character isn't exactly unusual.)
Even the mid-session aspect of it isn't particularly unusual. Lots of point-buy games have a "you can hold onto some of your points and then spend them later to reveal previously unknown abilities". I even recall GURPS having that as an option.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;889290This is definitely dissociated, but I'm not really seeing it as a matter of narrative control. (For much the same reason that I don't interpret any character creation mechanics or systems in which you spend XP to improve your character as narrative control. Control over the creation, definition, and advancement of your character isn't exactly unusual.)
Even the mid-session aspect of it isn't particularly unusual. Lots of point-buy games have a "you can hold onto some of your points and then spend them later to reveal previously unknown abilities". I even recall GURPS having that as an option.
It's the timing. The retroactive application changes it from character advancement to literary device. True, you're only declaring something about your character, and not the world at large, but you're instantaneously gaining a ret-conned skill. I kind of doubt it's all that common in "lots of point-buy games", but even if it were, that wouldn't change what it's letting you do and why.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;889290This is definitely dissociated, but I'm not really seeing it as a matter of narrative control. (For much the same reason that I don't interpret any character creation mechanics or systems in which you spend XP to improve your character as narrative control. Control over the creation, definition, and advancement of your character isn't exactly unusual.)
Even the mid-session aspect of it isn't particularly unusual. Lots of point-buy games have a "you can hold onto some of your points and then spend them later to reveal previously unknown abilities". I even recall GURPS having that as an option.
Hero System allows it too and I've seen it in some others. You can add new abilities with experience in mid play if here is a reason for it at the GM's discretion and having had it "all along" but its just never come up before is generally acceptable if it doesn't contradict established things about the character. It doesn't like Narrative Control just character advancement/development. The player can even explain it as the character just has a knack for this particular task and picks it up faster judging from example.
Basically you guys are saying...
GM: This small alley is a dead-end. There's a door on the left secured with a heavy lock.
Player: I spend {whatever} and my character finds a sewer grate.
...is somehow a completely different thing than...
GM: This small alley is a dead-end. There's a door on the left secured with a heavy lock.
Player: I spend 2XP, that lock looks like it's crafted by a locksmith that grew up in my village, it has her signature hasp. I apprenticed with her for a summer, let me see if I can open it.
Maybe you're missing the fact that you're actually declaring two things.
1. Whatever you're encountering that the player wants the character to succeed at is somehow relevant to the character's history. Editing the current world.
2. You're declaring that your character had that ability from their history connected to the current situation all along. Editing your character retroactively.
The authors themselves call the mechanic story-based. Whatever, you asked for the reasons for what I said, now you have them.
Quote from: CRKrueger;889316Basically you guys are saying...
GM: This small alley is a dead-end. There's a door on the left secured with a heavy lock.
Player: I spend {whatever} and my character finds a sewer grate.
...is somehow a completely different thing than...
GM: This small alley is a dead-end. There's a door on the left secured with a heavy lock.
Player: I spend 2XP, that lock looks like it's crafted by a locksmith that grew up in my village, it has her signature hasp. I apprenticed with her for a summer, let me see if I can open it.
Maybe you're missing the fact that you're actually declaring two things.
1. Whatever you're encountering that the player wants the character to succeed at is somehow relevant to the character's history. Editing the current world.
2. You're declaring that your character had that ability from their history connected to the current situation all along. Editing your character retroactively.
The authors themselves call the mechanic story-based. Whatever, you asked for the reasons for what I said, now you have them.
But yes it does feel different to me. The player didn't pull the sewer grate out of his ass. He's spending some experience to add a skill to the character sheet, specialized to a specific type of lock. In some games you can just spend the points and buy the skill outright mid session. This seems like the same thing just that a reason has to be attached to it. I add details about my characters all the timer to flesh out their backgrounds, as things are revealed about them (say from social interaction) and because its fun. I like developed backgrounds but I don't think I can capture everything about a PCs in a few paragraphs (or the couple of sentences some people on this site advocate)
When I think Narrative Control it means altering the setting not adding details to my character. I'm going to be doing that anyway at some point so it feels different and not intrusive, more like a way to encourage developing a PCs background and some ties to the world. And as the GM I can always say no or set the bounds as I see fit so it not really giving the Player much authority.
Using the padlock example if I as the GM had detailed that pad lock was special or unique I'm not obligated (as far as I can tell from the rule) to change that. I can refuse the expenditure or request a different justification which can be something like "My PC has a knack for jiggering pad locks. Here's 2 experience to be trained in it).
So yes, its does feel very different spending some points and changing the world around the character. I understand you feel differently and as I'm not trying to convince you otherwise I didn't question your opinion.
Quote from: Nexus;889319When I think Narrative Control it means altering the setting not adding details to my character.
You
are altering the setting.
When you say "these types of mountains are just like the mountains back home" you are altering the mountains to make them just like the mountains back home.
When you say "that lock looks like it was made by the locksmith your character interned with", you are altering the lock to make it just like the locks made by locksmith you interned with.
You can't do the "half spend experience retcon thing that I can rationalize" without
first editing the world to make it relevant to your character, thus allowing the retcon.
The "oh I always knew that" part
requires the "I just changed the world to make it relevant to the character in just the way I want" part.
That's why it's effectively a Deus Ex Machina literary device. A subtle one, yes, but one nonetheless. It's why the authors themselves refer to it as story-based because you are declaring something true about the world
first and
then declaring something about your character that didn't
really exist before the second you needed it to.
Compared to the "make a sewer grate" it's not a Difference of Kind, it's a Difference of Degree.
Quote from: CRKrueger;889323You are altering the setting.
When you say "these types of mountains are just like the mountains back home" you are altering the mountains to make them just like the mountains back home.
When you say "that lock looks like it was made by the locksmith your character interned with", you are altering the lock to make it just like the locks made by locksmith you interned with.
You can't do the "half spend experience retcon thing that I can rationalize" without first editing the world to make it relevant to your character, thus allowing the retcon.
The "oh I always knew that" part requires the "I just changed the world to make it relevant to the character in just the way I want" part.
That's why it's effectively a Deus Ex Machina literary device. A subtle one, yes, but one nonetheless. It's why the authors themselves refer to it as story-based because you are declaring something true about the world first and then declaring something about your character that didn't really exist before the second you needed it to.
Compared to the "make a sewer grate" it's not a Difference of Kind, it's a Difference of Degree.
I understand you feel its a narrative mechanic but I don't share your perspective and opinion for the reasons I outlined previously. But I'm not trying to argue with you about. Two adults can disagree about something, particularly something this trivial.
Hell, Most of this jargon we use to draw lines between different preferences will get you four different answers if you ask three different gamers anyway.
Whatever Dude.
You want to claim that you're not editing the world, cool.
You're objectively, provably wrong, but cool.
Liking Pepperoni is subjective.
Whether or not this pizza has Pepperoni on it, is objective.
"Feeling" like you're editing the world is subjective.
The fact that you're actually editing the world in order to relate it to your character so you can take a minor bonus through retconned character advancement is objective.
Having a metal spike piercing my flesh is objective.
The fact that it's a needle and not a piece of rebar is a level of degree. If you have to choose between a needle and a piece of rebar, then you take the needle, but that doesn't mean you don't have a metal spike piercing your flesh. There's a difference between the states of
1. Having a spike of metal in your flesh.
and
2. Not having a spike of metal in your flesh.
The fact that you might wear an earring and like it, doesn't change that fact that you exist in state 1.
Yep. I'm completely wrong and you're completely right. Someone was WRONG and you showed them. Another victory won for the forces of Justice on the Internet.
:rolleyes:
You take this shit way to personally, man.
Are you saying that claiming "these mountains are just like the mountains back home" is not declaring something about the setting that was not true until you said it?
I'm not asking if you like it.
or if it breaks immersion...
or if you think it's major or minor...
Just asking if you think you are editing the world when you say
"these mountains are just like the mountains back home" and spend 2XP to make that true.
Because that HAS to come before you say "I never really was that great a climber, but I did climb those mountains back home a lot, maybe it will help here."
Quote from: CRKrueger;889328Are you saying that claiming "these mountains are just like the mountains back home" is not declaring something about the setting that was not true until you said it?
I'm not asking if you like it.
or if it breaks immersion...
or if you think it's major or minor...
Just asking if you think you are editing the world when you say
"these mountains are just like the mountains back home" and spend 2XP to make that true.
Because that HAS to come before you say "I never really was that great a climber, but I did climb those mountains back home a lot, maybe it will help here."
I've already answered this question in detail earlier.
So at this point we're left with you not wanting to call an apple an apple because for some reason you don't want to be associated with apples or don't like the "apple" tag.
You say I care too much about this, but you didn't say
"Holy Shit, Dinosaurs!"
"Psycho SuperHero Kids"
or anything about the three new games, you led with...
Numenera is narrative?
We got down this side-thread because you're calling minor world-editing NOT world-editing.
Too much of this damn hobby is people arguing opinions as facts, the last thing we need to do is give all of game theory the postmodern relativist treatment.
Quote from: CRKrueger;889333So at this point we're left with you not wanting to call an apple an apple because for some reason you don't want to be associated with apples or don't like the "apple" tag.
You say I care too much about this, but you didn't say
"Holy Shit, Dinosaurs!"
"Psycho SuperHero Kids"
or anything about the three new games, you led with...
Numenera is narrative?
.
It wasn't if Cypher was narrative or not that I was referring too when I said you care to much. It was about if people agree with you about narrative vs whatever.
But if we're going to be pedantic here, I asked if
Cypher System was considered narrative because I hadn't heard that anywhere else. It was like someone calling GURPS narrative from my end. I couldn't care less about the setting if I tried but that was a curious statement so I asked for clarification.
You described the rules that you felt made it narrative and why. Then I agreed with another person that they didn't seem like narrative control to me. I didn't try to argue you out of your opinion.
But apparently that was enough to set you off and you can't seem to let it go. Personally, I don't care that much about whether they're considered "narrative" or not. Like I said, they don't match up to what I consider "narrative control" rules. Others may have different opinions. I'm an adult so I can deal with complete strangers thinking something different than I do without some urge to prove myself "right" especially little shit like RPG jargon that might mean something different in a few months.
Whether I like rules or not doesn't come into play and I don't have any issue with being associated with dreaded Narrative rules. I like Fiasco and Capes, for instance.
I'm not sure what your hang up is or why you can't just let it go and keep trying to pick a fight. But I'm not interested in having one. I'm not the one dragging this out and poking at it. So yeah, I'd say you take this stuff too personally.
Edit: And, just FYI, I don't like the Cypher System very much to begin with. I like The Strange as a setting but I want to switch to a different set of mechanics but that has nothing to do with how "narrative" it is or isn't.
We can agree to disagree on subjective things, and...
whether any mechanic bothers you or not
whether any mechanic breaks whatever you term immersion for you or not
whether any mechanic is, in the end useful for your table or not
...can't be argued.
Whether a game system should address the physical differences between a pen knife and a great axe is arguable.
That a great axe is capable of delivering more force than a pen knife is not arguable.
Whether you think saying "these mountains are just like the mountains of home" feels like an OOC statement giving you as a player control over the setting or not is immaterial, because it is.
Why do I care?
Because if we accept that tiny amounts of OOC world editing aren't *really* world editing or OOC, then the terms have no meaning.
If the terms have no meaning, then there is no way to communicate effectively about OOC world-editing, because now we've turned the definition of OOC world-editing (ie. editing the world as a player choice outside of the character) to be something completely different.
The end of this road is where there is no language we can use to effectively talk about game design or why we like certain types of games because it's all just "I hate strawberry". That helps no one.
and, FYI, all these narrative mechanics I'm caring too much about, are completely optional, so you can just not use them. The XP spends aren't the entirety of the reason I don't like the system.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;889279People tolerate the Cypher System because Monte's name is on the cover. See hero worship.
Wow, that's dismissive. I enjoy the system because I grok what Monte was trying to do with it. It's not perfect, but it's damn easier to play with than most I've dealt with. And Monte and Bruce have been producing fun and good quality support for their lines.
But hey, that's me.
I for one didn't like Monte's take on WOD. And this was when I was desperate for anything that felt different.
I didn't know who Monte Cook was before Numenera, so I don't think that me liking the Cypher System has anything to do with hero worship.
For many the game is good, and that's why we play it, there isn't much to it than that really.
Yeah, not a tolerate thing for me; I like the system. It isn't for everyone, but it works better for me and those with my tastes than anything else so far.
Monte Cook didn't really factor into it for me. I think he's living the dream and all, with that whole never had a non-game writing job business, but I wouldn't call it worship of any sort. I remembered him more from his Hero System days than anything else. I do know that a lot of fourth edition fans (especially closeted fans) have a hate-on for him because of comments he made about the failings of that edition, though, so I'm never surprised by those kind of Big Purple-ish comments no matter where I see them.
Quote from: Nexus;889311Hero System allows it too and I've seen it in some others. You can add new abilities with experience in mid play if here is a reason for it at the GM's discretion and having had it "all along" but its just never come up before is generally acceptable if it doesn't contradict established things about the character. It doesn't like Narrative Control just character advancement/development. The player can even explain it as the character just has a knack for this particular task and picks it up faster judging from example.
Back with my gaming collection now. Doing some quick spot checks, I find that this mechanic is found in:
- GURPS
- Hero
- Gumshoe
- Feng Shui
- Shadowrun (for certain abilities)
It's not universal. (The 20th Anniversary edition of Vampire, for example, specifies that you can only spend points between sessions.) But it seems to be common enough that it would be odd to consider it unusual.
Quote from: CRKrueger;889316GM: This small alley is a dead-end. There's a door on the left secured with a heavy lock.
Player: I spend 2XP, that lock looks like it's crafted by a locksmith that grew up in my village, it has her signature hasp. I apprenticed with her for a summer, let me see if I can open it.
You've pulled a fast one here. Both of the examples in
Numenera feature the character noticing something about the game world ("these locks are all from my home town" or "I'm currently climbing in mountains") and then the player spending XP to declare that they have previous experience with the thing in question.
You've shifted it so that the player is spending XP to both declare the thing their character is noticing their previous experience with it.
QuoteThe authors themselves call the mechanic story-based.
This is true. But it's also obvious that Cook isn't using "[these] benefits are usually story-based" to mean "this is a narrative control mechanic". On the same page, for example, we find this quote: "Some things that a PC can acquire as a long-term benefit are story based. For example, in the course of play, the character might gain a friend (a contact) or build a log cabin (a home)." Cook is using the phrase "story based" to mean "stuff that originates from the events happening in the game world".
In the case of the short-term mountain climbing benefit, the story based benefit they're talking about is "...she spends the XP after she's been in the mountains awhile and says that she's picked up a feel for climbing there."
Quote from: CRKrueger;889323When you say "these types of mountains are just like the mountains back home" you are altering the mountains to make them just like the mountains back home.
Not really, though. You're defining the mountains back home to be like these mountains.
The ability to continue developing your character's history after play begins is also not unusual in RPGs. If you didn't happen to name your character's parents and then one day you mention that your father's name is Stephen, no one is going to claim that you've "altered the game world". Same is true if you name the village you grew up in. Or mention that the inn you've just arrived at reminds you of the one in your home town.
In some cases, your character creation declarations might conflict with the GM's known facts about the world (and this is true whether those declarations are made before or after play begins). In those situations, we discover that ultimate authority still resides with the GM because their permission is required.
Which brings us back to the Cypher system, where the short-, medium-, and long-term benefits
all require GM approval.
You complain about people trying to redefine the language until words don't mean anything, but trying to make the term narrative control mechanics apply to character creation and advancement options that require GM approval is to render the term meaningless.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;889455Not really, though. You're defining the mountains back home to be like these mountains.
Ok, that's another way of looking at it, but I don't subscribe to the notion of "characters allowed to fill in their backstory" to reach the level of plate tectonics of the world and continental geology :D
The "it's all about the character" you're throwing up is just a smokescreen to cover the fact that there are two mountain ranges that may or may not have actually been similar beforehand, but now they are.
Also the fact that the Home Range is like the Current Range may be established once through the use of the term. You find yourself in the New Range and another use of the mechanic (because you still haven't actually bought climbing) now makes this New Range like the other two.
"Anything
even remotely connected to the character, including true facts about the places they've ever been" aren't part of character advancement no matter how many times you keep saying it. The names of the character's parents are not the same type of fact as whether there is a marsh outside Phoenix, Arizona. The name of their stuffed toy doesn't have the same impact as declaring the forests outside Uppsala are the same as those outside Rio De Janeiro.
GM approval allowing the player to edit the world means that after approval is given, the player edits the world. GM approval doesn't mean you're not editing the world. It means the world-editing mechanic doesn't happen whether the GM allows it or not.
You want to argue that if the player doesn't have true Authority and if the change can be denied then it's not really Authority, I can accept that argument of the term but control doesn't have to be absolute control.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;889455You complain about people trying to redefine the language until words don't mean anything, but trying to make the term narrative control mechanics apply to character creation and advancement options that require GM approval is to render the term meaningless.
Narrative Control can be minor or major, it can be with GM or table approval, or it can be absolute. It still is what it is.
You're the one who's stretching character advancement and character creation to ridiculous levels. Three years after chargen and we're still finding out new things about the character that conveniently keep getting them out of situations, just like the specific subtype (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SuddenlyAlwaysKnewThat) of literary device (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DeusExMachina) the mechanic was meant to imitate.
When a mechanic is almost a perfect translation of a literary device into game mechanics, it's kind of amazing you can refer to it as not a narrative mechanic. It's actually a very well-constructed mechanic, which does exactly what it sets out to do.
You agree it's a dissociated mechanic, so when you choose to have a mechanic be dissociated, what is your purpose for doing so?
Retroactive chargen is not the purpose of the mechanic, it's the effect of the mechanic.
Why are you retroactively chargenning? Because the character has encountered a situation they currently do not have a skill for and the player wants a greater chance of success, so they author the fact that they had the skill all along (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SuddenlyAlwaysKnewThat)(classic Deus Ex Machina) and the character now has a greater chance to pass the test.
If using a classic literary device expressed into game mechanics for the purpose of allowing the player to alter the history of the character and/or edit the world to affect the outcome of what the character is going to do isn't a narrative control mechanic, then what is?
BTW - You mischaracterized my argument. I'll give you that the lock scenario does say the character notices the locks are a particular design, although you could argue whether that was actual info given by the GM or all part of the same mechanic. If you think I'm misinterpreting the text of the lock section, fine. However, the mountain example DOES NOT say the character finds themselves in mountains similar to the ones at home. So I'm not misquoting the text or pulling anything with the mountain example, I quoted it as is, and in that example, there is the geological transformation.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;889455Back with my gaming collection now. Doing some quick spot checks, I find that this mechanic is found in:
- GURPS
- Hero
- Gumshoe
- Feng Shui
- Shadowrun (for certain abilities)
It's not universal. (The 20th Anniversary edition of Vampire, for example, specifies that you can only spend points between sessions.) But it seems to be common enough that it would be odd to consider it unusual.
That sounds right. I'd bet that its an option in other point based systems but I can't verify as well or at least not explicitly forbidden. but I can't verify that.
QuoteNot really, though. You're defining the mountains back home to be like these mountains.
The ability to continue developing your character's history after play begins is also not unusual in RPGs. If you didn't happen to name your character's parents and then one day you mention that your father's name is Stephen, no one is going to claim that you've "altered the game world". Same is true if you name the village you grew up in. Or mention that the inn you've just arrived at reminds you of the one in your home town.
In some cases, your character creation declarations might conflict with the GM's known facts about the world (and this is true whether those declarations are made before or after play begins). In those situations, we discover that ultimate authority still resides with the GM because their permission is required.
Which brings us back to the Cypher system, where the short-, medium-, and long-term benefits all require GM approval.
You complain about people trying to redefine the language until words don't mean anything, but trying to make the term narrative control mechanics apply to character creation and advancement options that require GM approval is to render the term meaningless.
Agreed.
Quote from: Nexus;889734That sounds right. I'd bet that its an option in other point based systems but I can't verify as well or at least not explicitly forbidden. but I can't verify that.
Can't verify any of the others either, because there are no page cites given. Wonder if tracking them down we'll find they just might not be as close as claimed? :hmm:
Quote from: CRKrueger;889504"Anything even remotely connected to the character, including true facts about the places they've ever been" aren't part of character advancement no matter how many times you keep saying it.
I'm comfortable in my statement that most RPG players simply wouldn't find anything remarkable about players naming the village they grew up in or describing events that happened to them before the campaign started. Nor would they find it unusual that, in some cases, the GM would say, "Actually, that doesn't quite work."
YMMV.
QuoteHowever, the mountain example DOES NOT say the character finds themselves in mountains similar to the ones at home. So I'm not misquoting the text or pulling anything with the mountain example, I quoted it as is, and in that example, there is the geological transformation.
Actually, the reason the example doesn't say that the character finds themselves in mountains similar to the ones back home before the player uses their ability is because the example from the book NEVER features mountains that are like the ones back home. That was something that you made up.
The actual example from the book is the player saying "she has experience with climbing in regions like these".
So, yes, you were (and are) misquoting the text. I went along with it when I assumed it was just an irrelevant alteration, but you've now pinned your entire argument on the very specific semantics of the quote that you made up.
Quote from: Justin Alexander;889869I'm comfortable in my statement that most RPG players simply wouldn't find anything remarkable about players naming the village they grew up in or describing events that happened to them before the campaign started. Nor would they find it unusual that, in some cases, the GM would say, "Actually, that doesn't quite work."
YMMV.
Actually, the reason the example doesn't say that the character finds themselves in mountains similar to the ones back home before the player uses their ability is because the example from the book NEVER features mountains that are like the ones back home. That was something that you made up.
The actual example from the book is the player saying "she has experience with climbing in regions like these".
So, yes, you were (and are) misquoting the text. I went along with it when I assumed it was just an irrelevant alteration, but you've now pinned your entire argument on the very specific semantics of the quote that you made up.
Actually, no I haven't and will deal with that BS later, after work, but for now, still feel like ignoring the whole "mechanic that is a literary device in rule form" somehow not being a narrative mechanic?
Quote from: CRKrueger;889893Actually, no I haven't and will deal with that BS later, after work, but for now, still feel like ignoring the whole "mechanic that is a literary device in rule form" somehow not being a narrative mechanic?
I categorically reject your assertion that any game which includes character creation and advancement mechanics which grant a player the ability to make up details about their character's skill set and/or background is a "narrative game".
Your argument that anything which looks superficially like a "literary device" is a narrative mechanic is also
prima facie absurd. This is primarily because that term is apparently much broader than you think it is. (For example, anthropomorphism (http://literary-devices.com/content/anthropomorphism) is a literary device. So is bildungsroman (http://literary-devices.com/content/bildungsroman). I'm unconvinced that
animate object spells and "zero to hero" experience point systems are, therefore, narrative mechanics.)
In the specific case of "deus ex machina", you similarly appear to be applying the term in an overly broad fashion. But even if we accept the overly broad definition of "I happen to have a skill which is relevant to the situation I currently find myself in, although that in no way guarantees my success at this particular task" as being a deus ex machina, I'd still be unconvinced that the mechanic is a narrative mechanic as a result.
Is there any game at all, that you like and play, that you consider an RPG, that does have a mechanic you call narrative?
Quote from: CRKrueger;890159Is there any game at all, that you like and play, that you consider an RPG, that does have a mechanic you call narrative?
Well, there's
Numenera. As I said in Post #17 of this thread, GM Intrusions can be used as a narrative control mechanic:
Quote from: Justin Alexander;888958The cool thing about GM Intrusions is that they're an amazingly versatile tool for the GM.
One of the many things you can do with them (if you want to) is to give your players any degree of narrative control that you want them to have. But if you don't like your players to have narrative control? Just don't use GM Instrusions in that way. Ta-da!
I walk about this at more length in the Art of GM Instrusions (http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/35499/roleplaying-games/numenera-the-art-of-gm-intrusions).
And action point mechanics (like
Numenera's "spend 1 XP for a reroll" mechanic) are a pretty ubiquitous example of a narrative control mechanic that can be found in many games that I would classify as an RPG.
Quote from: CRKrueger;890159Is there any game at all, that you like and play, that you consider an RPG, that does have a mechanic you call narrative?
For me, the answer is obviously no.
Quote from: Caesar Slaad;888146My perspective is just about the opposite of this. I find the Numenera setting intriguing, but I find the Cypher system obnoxious.
This is how I feel.
Gonna pass on this one unless my players really get a serious radioactive bug up their collective asses and press me on it. And I seriously doubt that will happen considering all the other juicy stuff out there.
I backed The Strange and spent way more on the end product than I expected to, so no more purchases from Money Cook. That said I like the fluff of the setting and the fact I can probably adapt some of it to D&D.