If you look at 5e's various Conjure [critter] spells, you'll notice many of them tell you to immediately roll initiative for the newly appeared critters and that they get their own turn. My friend noticed a peculiarity however: Unless the game intends for the critters to only start acting on the next round rolling high initiative for them is paradoxically bad. This is because you want the critters to act as soon as possible, but if they roll higher initiative than the caster who summoned them, they don't get to act during the current round.

Demonstration-

DM: Ok, it's initiative count 10, your turn druid.

Druid: I cast Conjure Animals. I get two dexterous animals and they roll initiative 15.

DM: Aww, too bad, since initiative count 15 has already elapsed they'll only act next round.

Druid: Wait, what!?

Rogue: Dude, you should have selected animals with terrible dexterity, that way they would have had better odds of acting this round and the next too.

Druid: This makes no sense.

What do you folks think of this situation? How would you rule?

Either

A) If they roll initiative higher than has already elapsed, they get to act on the next available initiative count in the current round and then revert to their rolled initiative next round for the duration.

or

B) rule that they only get to act on the following round and take the duration from that.

Within the game-world, it makes sense that faster creatures (those with higher initiative) should be able to act more quickly.

So I'd say that if their initiative is higher than the current initiative, they act immediately for this turn - and on following turns act on the initiative they rolled.

Essentially, treat this the same as if you accidentally forgot someone's turn.

Quote from: One Horse Town;855784B) rule that they only get to act on the following round and take the duration from that.

This has a significant effect on the spells' power. I wonder if this is in fact RAI and an intentional balancing factor.

Here's another question about that.

Who chooses the creatures? The GM or the player?

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;855805Here's another question about that.

Who chooses the creatures? The GM or the player?

The GM, in my games.

That is a bit odd yeah.

But think of it like this. If the initiative was higher then this turn count it as a held action and allow it to act. Or just treat it like the equivalent of a held action or 5es ready action which allows you to act later in the turn instead of right now.

Next turn go as normal.

Personally Id have just had the conjured critters initiative be the same as the casters. Saves bookkeeping.

It would make most sense for them to phase in at the top of the following round and roll init then. The only reasonable alternative would be they act immediately on the caster's init, but after seeing a Pathfinder Summoner in action I'm pretty sick of that.

Quote from: S'mon;855906It would make most sense for them to phase in at the top of the following round and roll init then. The only reasonable alternative would be they act immediately on the caster's init, but after seeing a Pathfinder Summoner in action I'm pretty sick of that.

If they dont act till the end of the next round then it would be in the casters best interest to hold casting till the last round that way the summons arent potentially vulnerable for longer than need be. Especially in 5e where a bad roll means that is their round for the rest of the combat.

Or you can take a chance and hope they roll equal or lower than the current.

A little tactical thinking in spellcasting is not a bad thing.

Quote from: Omega;855909If they dont act till the end of the next round then it would be in the casters best interest to hold casting till the last round that way the summons arent potentially vulnerable for longer than need be. Especially in 5e where a bad roll means that is their round for the rest of the combat.

Or you can take a chance and hope they roll equal or lower than the current.

A little tactical thinking in spellcasting is not a bad thing.

By 'phase in' I mean they appear at the start of the following round, no matter when in the previous round the caster cast the summoning spell. So no extra period of vulnerability.

Quote from: Omega;855909If they dont act till the end of the next round then it would be in the casters best interest to hold casting till the last round that way the summons arent potentially vulnerable for longer than need be. Especially in 5e where a bad roll means that is their round for the rest of the combat.

Or you can take a chance and hope they roll equal or lower than the current.

A little tactical thinking in spellcasting is not a bad thing.

There is no Hold action in 5e (except for Improvise an Action). I think you mean Ready action, but that uses up an Action and a Reaction, so that you can "hold a spell" through Concentration. Which just brings a chance for the opposition to disrupt the caster's concentration (if they could figure out (Arcana?) that that is what the caster is doing).

Considering PF shenanigans I've seen, I'm perfectly OK with keeping this initiative peculiarity.

In fact, since I prefer Fog of War initiative, either by group or by individual depending on combat size, I don't have any strong desire to even bother "fixing" this. I am more interested in using a different initiative method entirely.

Creating an optional rule for this just seems more bookkeeping for player empowerment than GM convenience. I'd just label it "Summoning Sickness" and write it off.

I mentioned that 5es equivalent was the Ready action.

Personally I do not like 5es initiative lockdown. If you roll poorly then you are last to act every round thereafter to the end of the battle. But as is. That too is less bookkeeping.

If someone with high or mid initiative wants to hold a summons till late in then thats their call. The bad guys can do the same and take the same risks.

Quote from: Opaopajr;855980In fact, since I prefer Fog of War initiative

What is Fog of War initiative?

Somehow I am presuming that you as a GM keep the monster's scores secret until their turn comes up. What about the next rounds? Do you roll for initiative every round?

If one was to take this concept further, one could force their players to roll for initiative in secret each round and play from there. Of course this would lenghten the combat considerably, but at this point I am just confused by your terminology.

Current group I am in we do not know the enemy initiative till they act.

I don't like the solution of having the summoned creature with higher initiative act immediately and on its next turn at its usual initiative; the fast summoned creature is likely to get two actions before anyone who acted just before the caster gets their next action. That seems too big an advantage compared to the counter intuitive preference for a slower summoned creature.

In the normal course of 5e initiative, after everyone has acted, the "start of the next round" isn't meaningful; there's some order that everyone acts in, so the newly summoned creature acts at some point after the caster and before the caster next acts, and once everyone is in the combat they just take turns in the same order. The only objectionable part is that lower initiative bonus creatures may have a better chance of acting sooner than higher initiative bonus creatures. The simplest solution is not to give any initiative bonus at all for summoned creatures, which would avoid the counter intuitive advantage for the slower creature, although remove a tiny advantage that the faster creature would normally have.

If you still want an advantage for the faster creature with a +N modifier, you could let that creature have the most advantageous result in the range of its die roll minus N to its die roll plus N, and for the slower creature with a -N modifier, let that creature have the least advantageous result in the same range. Or you could scale the initiative rolled so that the highest roll possible would act just after the caster and the lowest roll possible would act just before the caster next acts. Generally 5e has avoided such tricky computations with such a small payoff.