If you look at 5e's various Conjure [critter] spells, you'll notice many of them tell you to immediately roll initiative for the newly appeared critters and that they get their own turn. My friend noticed a peculiarity however: Unless the game intends for the critters to only start acting on the next round rolling high initiative for them is paradoxically bad. This is because you want the critters to act as soon as possible, but if they roll higher initiative than the caster who summoned them, they don't get to act during the current round.
Demonstration-
DM: Ok, it's initiative count 10, your turn druid.
Druid: I cast Conjure Animals. I get two dexterous animals and they roll initiative 15.
DM: Aww, too bad, since initiative count 15 has already elapsed they'll only act next round.
Druid: Wait, what!?
Rogue: Dude, you should have selected animals with terrible dexterity, that way they would have had better odds of acting this round and the next too.
Druid: This makes no sense.
What do you folks think of this situation? How would you rule?
Either
A) If they roll initiative higher than has already elapsed, they get to act on the next available initiative count in the current round and then revert to their rolled initiative next round for the duration.
or
B) rule that they only get to act on the following round and take the duration from that.
Within the game-world, it makes sense that faster creatures (those with higher initiative) should be able to act more quickly.
So I'd say that if their initiative is higher than the current initiative, they act immediately for this turn - and on following turns act on the initiative they rolled.
Essentially, treat this the same as if you accidentally forgot someone's turn.
Quote from: One Horse Town;855784B) rule that they only get to act on the following round and take the duration from that.
This has a significant effect on the spells' power. I wonder if this is in fact RAI and an intentional balancing factor.
Here's another question about that.
Who chooses the creatures? The GM or the player?
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;855805Here's another question about that.
Who chooses the creatures? The GM or the player?
The GM, in my games.
That is a bit odd yeah.
But think of it like this. If the initiative was higher then this turn count it as a held action and allow it to act. Or just treat it like the equivalent of a held action or 5es ready action which allows you to act later in the turn instead of right now.
Next turn go as normal.
Personally Id have just had the conjured critters initiative be the same as the casters. Saves bookkeeping.
It would make most sense for them to phase in at the top of the following round and roll init then. The only reasonable alternative would be they act immediately on the caster's init, but after seeing a Pathfinder Summoner in action I'm pretty sick of that. :)
Quote from: S'mon;855906It would make most sense for them to phase in at the top of the following round and roll init then. The only reasonable alternative would be they act immediately on the caster's init, but after seeing a Pathfinder Summoner in action I'm pretty sick of that. :)
If they dont act till the end of the next round then it would be in the casters best interest to hold casting till the last round that way the summons arent potentially vulnerable for longer than need be. Especially in 5e where a bad roll means that is their round for the rest of the combat.
Or you can take a chance and hope they roll equal or lower than the current.
A little tactical thinking in spellcasting is not a bad thing.
Quote from: Omega;855909If they dont act till the end of the next round then it would be in the casters best interest to hold casting till the last round that way the summons arent potentially vulnerable for longer than need be. Especially in 5e where a bad roll means that is their round for the rest of the combat.
Or you can take a chance and hope they roll equal or lower than the current.
A little tactical thinking in spellcasting is not a bad thing.
By 'phase in' I mean they appear at the start of the following round, no matter when in the previous round the caster cast the summoning spell. So no extra period of vulnerability.
Quote from: Omega;855909If they dont act till the end of the next round then it would be in the casters best interest to hold casting till the last round that way the summons arent potentially vulnerable for longer than need be. Especially in 5e where a bad roll means that is their round for the rest of the combat.
Or you can take a chance and hope they roll equal or lower than the current.
A little tactical thinking in spellcasting is not a bad thing.
There is no Hold action in 5e (except for Improvise an Action). I think you mean Ready action, but that uses up an Action and a Reaction, so that you can "hold a spell" through Concentration. Which just brings a chance for the opposition to disrupt the caster's concentration (if they could figure out (Arcana?) that that is what the caster is doing).
Considering PF shenanigans I've seen, I'm perfectly OK with keeping this initiative peculiarity.
In fact, since I prefer Fog of War initiative, either by group or by individual depending on combat size, I don't have any strong desire to even bother "fixing" this. I am more interested in using a different initiative method entirely.
Creating an optional rule for this just seems more bookkeeping for player empowerment than GM convenience. I'd just label it "Summoning Sickness" and write it off.
I mentioned that 5es equivalent was the Ready action.
Personally I do not like 5es initiative lockdown. If you roll poorly then you are last to act every round thereafter to the end of the battle. But as is. That too is less bookkeeping.
If someone with high or mid initiative wants to hold a summons till late in then thats their call. The bad guys can do the same and take the same risks.
Quote from: Opaopajr;855980In fact, since I prefer Fog of War initiative
What is Fog of War initiative?
Somehow I am presuming that you as a GM keep the monster's scores secret until their turn comes up. What about the next rounds? Do you roll for initiative every round?
If one was to take this concept further, one could force their players to roll for initiative in secret each round and play from there. Of course this would lenghten the combat considerably, but at this point I am just confused by your terminology.
Current group I am in we do not know the enemy initiative till they act.
I don't like the solution of having the summoned creature with higher initiative act immediately and on its next turn at its usual initiative; the fast summoned creature is likely to get two actions before anyone who acted just before the caster gets their next action. That seems too big an advantage compared to the counter intuitive preference for a slower summoned creature.
In the normal course of 5e initiative, after everyone has acted, the "start of the next round" isn't meaningful; there's some order that everyone acts in, so the newly summoned creature acts at some point after the caster and before the caster next acts, and once everyone is in the combat they just take turns in the same order. The only objectionable part is that lower initiative bonus creatures may have a better chance of acting sooner than higher initiative bonus creatures. The simplest solution is not to give any initiative bonus at all for summoned creatures, which would avoid the counter intuitive advantage for the slower creature, although remove a tiny advantage that the faster creature would normally have.
If you still want an advantage for the faster creature with a +N modifier, you could let that creature have the most advantageous result in the range of its die roll minus N to its die roll plus N, and for the slower creature with a -N modifier, let that creature have the least advantageous result in the same range. Or you could scale the initiative rolled so that the highest roll possible would act just after the caster and the lowest roll possible would act just before the caster next acts. Generally 5e has avoided such tricky computations with such a small payoff.
Quote from: Moracai;856026What is Fog of War initiative?
Somehow I am presuming that you as a GM keep the monster's scores secret until their turn comes up. What about the next rounds? Do you roll for initiative every round?
If one was to take this concept further, one could force their players to roll for initiative in secret each round and play from there. Of course this would lenghten the combat considerably, but at this point I am just confused by your terminology.
It's as you say, roll every round. It can be done per group or per individual. For midsize to large combats I would use group. For small skirmishes you can get away with individual. People often burned out on individual initiative because they played that as the lone default from 2e and carried it over to 3e (which added more mod fun with feats and tricks and the like).
It's pretty easy, GM decides NPC action, next ask each player to declare their action, then you roll off dice, and finally resolve in order. Creates a useful sense of chaos and time tension, because any player dithering on declaring their actions can end up being passed. Speeds up combat
immensely.
You can keep initiatives hidden. But for the most part since it randomizes per round, and the players are theoretically a team, there is little to metagame with that oh-so-fleeting knowledge. Often plans to "game the board state" tend to collapse with open sequential declaration and random timing — those traffic jam situations are team enlightening.
When you start to hear players talk in-character on their downtime about how to create team tactics versus common battle situations, because there's little time to chat or ponder during combat, it warms your heart good.
Quote from: Opaopajr;856049It's as you say, roll every round. It can be done per group or per individual. For midsize to large combats I would use group. For small skirmishes you can get away with individual. People often burned out on individual initiative because they played that as the lone default from 2e and carried it over to 3e (which added more mod fun with feats and tricks and the like).
It's pretty easy, GM decides NPC action, next ask each player to declare their action, then you roll off dice, and finally resolve in order. Creates a useful sense of chaos and time tension, because any player dithering on declaring their actions can end up being passed. Speeds up combat immensely.
You can keep initiatives hidden. But for the most part since it randomizes per round, and the players are theoretically a team, there is little to metagame with that oh-so-fleeting knowledge. Often plans to "game the board state" tend to collapse with open sequential declaration and random timing — those traffic jam situations are team enlightening.
When you start to hear players talk in-character on their downtime about how to create team tactics versus common battle situations, because there's little time to chat or ponder during combat, it warms your heart good.
How do you handle movement? Do you use a grid? Like, if I want to move my guy 6 squares, do I spell out where I'm moving and what I'm doing beforehand as if it was my initiative?
What if I'm going to run into someone else while moving or staying in a path that gets blocked once initiative shakes out?
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;856078How do you handle movement? Do you use a grid? Like, if I want to move my guy 6 squares, do I spell out where I'm moving and what I'm doing beforehand as if it was my initiative?
What if I'm going to run into someone else while moving or staying in a path that gets blocked once initiative shakes out?
I'll be interested to hear how Opa does it, but we basically use the Speed Factor option from the DMG, but without the Speed Factors.
The players declare their Action (cast firebolt at the goblin, attack the mad wizard), but take their Move (grid for us) and any Bonus action as normal so there is latitude for adjusting to position changes.
Alright, thanks for the clarification Opaopajr.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;856078How do you handle movement? Do you use a grid? Like, if I want to move my guy 6 squares, do I spell out where I'm moving and what I'm doing beforehand as if it was my initiative?
What if I'm going to run into someone else while moving or staying in a path that gets blocked once initiative shakes out?
I won't lie, grids make things significantly more complicated because which squares you choose will eventually matter. I generally use theater of the mind or direct measurement (tape measure) upon the table. For the most part we assume logically walking around others, so that group movement and individual movement saves the most amount of movement through difficult terrain, allies, etc.
However bottlenecks will occur in tighter spaces. Rank and file starts to make excellent sense after awhile in such environs. This is a good thing, as it emphasizes coordinating as a team with imperfect knowledge under stress.
Since it is group or individual movement, with logical assumptions like "walk around others" or "avoid unnecessary engagements and Opportunity Attacks," for the most part grids work roughly the same. Which square you move on becomes more important in tighter spaces again, naturally, so you'll get into situations where taking a few OAs is necessary to finish your declared movement. However this becomes a descriptive opportunity for players to describe other logical movement behavior.
For example, perhaps the fighter wants to close in on the mage, and wants to close in as fast as possible regardless of the danger. They would say "I move towards that mage, heedless of other opponents, and willing to break formation." Then regardless of going before or after the mage the fighter will beeline for that mage, willing to take OAs, and willing to break off from the party main.
Now that can end up seriously differently depending on who goes first in initiative. With Fog of War who knows what OAs the board state's will end up present when the fighter finally makes their move. Further, who knows whether the fighter will beeline in the past expected direction, or end up deviating due to the mage going elsewhere first by their planned prerogative.
I will reiterate this:
Decide NPC actions first, then ask PCs their declarations. This is good practice to avoid metagaming and maintain a sense of GM impartiality.
What do you base making OAs on? Usually since it's one move at a time, the other enemies are stationary while one character moves past them. You can clearly see when the OA occurs. But if they're all moving at the same time when does that happen.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;856078How do you handle movement? Do you use a grid? Like, if I want to move my guy 6 squares, do I spell out where I'm moving and what I'm doing beforehand as if it was my initiative?
What if I'm going to run into someone else while moving or staying in a path that gets blocked once initiative shakes out?
I have used it.
What I did was to keep movement abstract. Rather than "I move to grid 4F to attack the orc at 5F" its "I move to get up close and flank on the left the orc with the horned helmet." and another player might say "And I wait until the warrior is in place to move up to flank the orc in the horned helmet from the right."
But one of my absolute best was an adventure with total fog of war. No one knew what anyone else was doing. A few tried to co-ordinate. But overall it was a free-for-all of about a dozen PCs and more NPCs vs a slaver ship crew and an unexpected visitor. On one side were adventurers PCs who had been in the slave hold and just escaped. On the other was a military liberation force of PCs adventurers.
At the climax one of the PCs sees a big woman in plant armour strangling a smaller boy in simmilar armour and opts to help by focusing hir magic into speed and strength then grabbing a broken mast piece to lay into the larger assailant. Meanwhile the knight, who trying to co-ordinate ranged fire on an obviously mostly melee type, ordered everyone to let fly on his command. This included a pair of twin archers, and a little mage who also used strength focus to swing around a ballistia to fire.
So at the same time he said "Fire!" the enchanced PC whips in and lands a great hit on the foe which bats her out into the ocean. And then finds hirself at ground zero of a hail of arrows, a dagger, a spell, and a ballistia bolt. Some of which landed too.
Everyone loved it.
Thus ends todays anecdote.
Back on topic. I agree that having the summons pop in and act even if their initiative was allready over is not what I'd want. But others will have their own ideas or just save time and have the summons act on the casters initiative or the one right after for example. Or something else.
Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;856098What do you base making OAs on? Usually since it's one move at a time, the other enemies are stationary while one character moves past them. You can clearly see when the OA occurs. But if they're all moving at the same time when does that happen.
Spacing amid board state matters.
Board state changes during movement, yes? So if the monsters went first, their position would no longer be what it was. Doesn't matter much on a wide open plaza, matters immensely amid difficult terrain, hazards, and walls.
If there is a defendable area, like a rock and a hard place, it would make sense to cover as much of it as you can. And monsters with any sort of cunning would react similarly. Thus if the monster's took better defensive positions, such as front line tries to threat as much territory (if they cannot otherwise create a defensive wall) while squishy ranged uses distance and cover, between the mage and the fighter will be OAs (or ideally a defensive wall formation, if possible).
This is where coordinated reach weapons really shine, by the way. You threat more squares and really screw with easy mobility.
e.g. Fifteen foot hallway exits a larger room. An opposing mage and a fighter were met in this larger room, and combat begins. Mob mage plans to use distance as defense while safely lobbing spells yet maintaining line of sight. Mob fighter plans to move to the hallway mouth and plant himself at the center. Both plan to take ranged attacks while they can.
Party fighter inside room wants to beeline to the mage, not caring about OAs or formation. Party mages inside room want to use distance as defense while also retaining line of sight. Both want to take ranged attacks while they can.
One mage wants to choose a corner of the room for greatest room visibility, another wants to align themselves to cover the hallway just in case. This way if the enemy stays in the room they have two mages spread out and threatening. If the enemy leaves the room at least one mage threatens hallway, while other holds the room for positioning. This would be ideal if party wins initiative.
Declarations done, roll initiative. Party loses initiative.
Mob mage lobs spell inside room and then moves deeper into hallway. Mob fighter moves into position and lobs javelin inside room as well, readying melee weapon with their 'free interact'. Party's turn in initiative order.
Now there is a mob fighter OA in between mob mage and party fighter. Due to the hallway's walls there is no way to circle around mob fighter's OA. Further, due to declarations, the party fighter will likely have to dash to try to close with the mage, thus sacrificing an action. Also, due to declarations, one of the mages will be deep in the room's corner while another gets to cover the hallway.
Suddenly this 'easy' scenario got more complicated due to having to declare first. Without such foreknowledge within the round of what others do it becomes harder to micromanage the board state. And thus, if the party survives this, there may be a talk amongst themselves about how and when to prioritize targets versus taking advantage of spacial positions.