Quote from: Simlasa;842522What's this 'new school twist'?
If I've got most of the stuff from 1e and 2e WFRP what does Zwiehander have to offer me?

Great question!

Without having a complete view of the beta, here are the main takeaways -

System agnostic mechanics: it can be adapted for the Warhammer world, take place within the world of The Witcher, used with Dark Albion or a myriad of other homegrown rpgs that embrace a gritty set of mechanics. By divorcing the setting from the mechanics, we've developed a thematic approach to rules. Unlike OSR, the mechanics bake in the themes of a grim & perilous world, without introducing a default setting to potentially dissuade people from picking it up.

Universal system unification: no longer will you have to deal with disproportioned Talent and Skill distributions in Careers; one of the issues that riddled previous editions. Broken Career Paths have been addressed by open adoption, making any mix of Careers optimal. Although there are suggested paths, none are absolute. Want to become a Witch Hunter? You won't have to prepare the proper "path" of Careers to get there. What happens in the adventure and story drives the choice as to what Career you choose next.

Math rebalance: no longer will you have to worry about dealing with 'naked dwarf syndrome', imbalance of skill bonuses or the like. Everything has been arranged on a universal scale, appropriating numbers where they should be.

New dice mechanics: with the addition of Chaos Dice, flipping the results to succeed, simplistic chase mechanics and a host of other ways to use the dice, it brings an interesting - yet not gimmicky way - to use the dice to properly reflect the grim nature of ZWEIHANDER.

Your Career matters: every Career (called Professions) receives a unique Trait. Even if you share some of the same Skills or Talents as another person at the table, you're guaranteed to be the best at what you do. So, what does this mean? Your Coachman will be the best driver. Your Slayer will be the best at killing monsters. Your Diabolist will master Chaos Manifestations quicker. Your Jailer will be the best at interrogation. Your Knave will be the best at rubbing elbows with guttersnipes and the like. Your Peasant will be the best at dealing with fatigue and exhaustion. The list goes on, with 72 Professions (and 23 additional elite Professions) baked into the core book.

No more wound or hit points: ZWEIHANDER uses an abstract approach to recording Damage. You have a condition track that dictates when you are weak, when you suffer injuries and when you face death. The same goes for fatigue, stress, fear and poor weather effect; a condition track unifies these mechanics to reflect non-combat related "damage" you suffer (called Peril). It also takes under consideration when your insanities, maladies and addictions flare up.

Weapon output is unified: no more arguing whether a dagger is more dangerous than a pike. We eliminate corner cases by reclassifying weapons with Qualities. They distinguish each weapon from one another uniquely.

Traveling and chase rules: a simplistic approach, blended with mechanical and minor narrative elements, allows a Gamemaster to make the journey a special part of the adventure. Add in the chase rules, and you've got a number of great tools to play with.

Social intrigue events: yet again, a simple mechanics system using a semi-narrative approach helps resolve complex intrigues. It also takes under consideration social class, fame and infamy. This adds into the three types of challenges a Gamemaster can flex: combat time, travel time, social intrigue time.

Group fortune pool: you're an adventuring group, brought together by unusual circumstances. Fortune favors the bold, and the mechanics behind the pool is shared among the group (and not bound to the individual). But, lady fate still has a part to play in each character's destiny.

Passions and personalities matter: we've thrown alignment out the door. Instead, you have an Order/Chaos axiom, wherein 48 individual personality traits (drawing from the grim & perilous thematic elements) that spell out how your character views the world. And depending on how they react to it as they gain corruption, they'll either resolve these morally grey areas  within themselves (growing closer to their Order alignment) or fall prey to their own selfish needs (Chaos axiom). Both Fate Points and Afflictions are tied to this axiom.

Did I mention that the published version will be entirely free? Because it will be.

I stand by my opinion that ZWEIHANDER does Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay's mechanics better than Warhammer does. Give the GRIMDARK beta edition a look. We'd love to hear your feedback! http://grimsandperilous.com

*twitch*

Sorry, you've set my bullshit alarms off like no tomorrow.

QuoteSystem agnostic mechanics: it can be adapted for the Warhammer world, take place within the world of The Witcher, used with Dark Albion or a myriad of other homegrown rpgs that embrace a gritty set of mechanics. By divorcing the setting from the mechanics, we've developed a thematic approach to rules. Unlike OSR, the mechanics bake in the themes of a grim & perilous world, without introducing a default setting to potentially dissuade people from picking it up.

Which is different from other games how, exactly?  Fantastic Heroes and Witchery demands no particular setting from me, even having rules for sci-fi stuff.  It's a pretty fucking excellent game.  

LotFP asks a little more, but could run pretty much anything medieval.  And if you're saying it doesn't encourage a grim and perilous world, well.

QuoteUniversal system unification: no longer will you have to deal with misproportioned Talent and Skill distributions in Careers. Broken Career Paths have been addressed by open adoption, making any mix of Careers optimal.

I have also recalibrated the Zorkulum to the Quara frequency (hint: I have no idea what this means either)

QuoteYour Career matters: every Career (called Professions) receives a unique Professional Trait. Even if you share some of the same Skills or Talents as another person at the table, you're guaranteed to be the best at what you do. So, what does this mean? Your Coachman will be the best driver. Your Slayer will be the best at killing monsters. Your Diabolist will master Chaos Manifestations quicker. Your Jailer will be the best at interrogation. Your Knave will be the best at rubbing elbows with guttersnipes and the like. Your Peasant will be the best at dealing with fatigue. The list goes on, with 72 Professions (and 23 additional elite Professions) baked into the core book.

So 95 different and separate professions.  All unique.  

Is this just a one paragraph unique thing grafted onto a classless system?  I don't think fucking 3E hit 95 fucking classes.


I guess I'll check it out, but man am I super unexcited.

Quote from: GreyICE;842534snip

I think you don't like the idea of it at all because unlike 4e D&D, & 3e WFRP its not a skirmish war game disguised as an RPG. But thanks for shitting things up, that you haven't even looked at.

Man, I'm telling someone his presentation sucked, and you're telling me off for not tonguing his dickhole?  Go blow it out your ear you sycophantic halfwit.

"Our system is universal" has been a shitty tagline since GURPS.  Actually it was a shitty tagline for GURPS too.

I didn't say you had to suck his cock. I could give a shit less. You seem very negative in the majority of posts I've read of yours. About everything and anything. All I'm saying is why not channel some positive to what you do like. Because I'm not sure I've seen any of that from you. But then again what the fuck. Its the interwebs you do what you like.

Thanks for the advice Lucy, but you're not getting a nickel out of me.

Quote from: GreyICE;842546"Our system is universal" has been a shitty tagline since GURPS.  Actually it was a shitty tagline for GURPS too.

Well, you may not be the target audience in that case. No less, I appreciate the feedback.

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;842560Well, you may not be the target audience in that case. No less, I appreciate the feedback.

Meh, I feel I should explain why it's a shitty tagline.

First, it's never been true.  Ever.  GURPS might be the closest, but no one has ever made a system that can be used for everything.  At most you can be used with a lot of things.  

So narrow it the fuck down.  "Our system can be used with any dark fantasy or medieval setting" would be a good goal.

When someone shoots for making a system that can be good with any setting, they're making a game that isn't great with any setting.  Like, you can do sci-fi with your system?  Why would I play it over Traveler or Eclipse Phase or Stars Without Number?  You really have a system that can support high heroic fantasy, westerns, dark fantasy, sci-fi, gonzo, and urban gang warfare?  Really?  All of those are good with the system, and it isn't so generic it makes my teeth ache?  

All the keyword "universal" usually tells me is that someone failed to sit down and ask themselves "what would I like my system to do well?"  Reminds me of when D20 was doing everything under the sun, D20 modern, D20 vampire, D20 Star Wars, D20 assmunching, and it was all crappy.  

If your game is that, then how did you manage to equal GURPS?  If your game isn't, don't use the word universal.  Actually, I should just make this guide, if you're trying to sell an RPG, never use these words or phrases:

- Realistic
- Universal
- Action-packed
- Like X but better
- Narrative (please no)

Also stop saying "Simplistic" if you mean "streamlined" or "simple".  "Simplistic" has really different connotations in English.  You said it like 5 times, and I don't ever want to see it in a description.  If your system is simplistic it is oversimplified, too simple:  http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/simplistic

You're not reclaiming the word, you're just misusing it.

And the words "Universal System Unification" are like... just... um...

Look, I'll still check out the system, but at best you REALLY need to work on your sales pitch.

GreyICE, is your real name Tim Kask?

Quote from: GreyICE;842534*twitch*

Sorry, you've set my bullshit alarms off like no tomorrow.



Which is different from other games how, exactly?  Fantastic Heroes and Witchery demands no particular setting from me, even having rules for sci-fi stuff.  It's a pretty fucking excellent game.  

It's different from WFRP, which is tied to a setting. It's like WFRP, but not tied to the Old World.

QuoteLotFP asks a little more, but could run pretty much anything medieval.  And if you're saying it doesn't encourage a grim and perilous world, well.

How do you read "the mechanics bake in the themes of a grim & perilous world" and get "the mechanics DO NOT bake in the themes of a grim & perilous world"?

QuoteI have also recalibrated the Zorkulum to the Quara frequency (hint: I have no idea what this means either)

Are you familiar with WFRP, because this looks like you aren't. It means the problem some people (not me) had with some careers being clearly better than others has been addressed by evening out skills. It also means that if you have a certain career in mind you don't have to plan some complex route to get to it, especially given that some careers can't get to others.

QuoteSo 95 different and separate professions.  All unique.  

Is this just a one paragraph unique thing grafted onto a classless system?  I don't think fucking 3E hit 95 fucking classes.

My guess, since I haven't looked yet, is that each career has one thing they have a higher limit on than any other career. So while many careers might have drive, Coachman will have the highest potential skill with drive.

QuoteI guess I'll check it out, but man am I super unexcited.

"This looks like it sucks, but I'll get it anyway"?

Quote from: GreyICE;842546"Our system is universal" has been a shitty tagline since GURPS.  Actually it was a shitty tagline for GURPS too.

Where does he claim it's a universal system? Hint: nowhere. He clearly says it's for WFRP like play in grim and perilous settings. All he means is it isn't tied to the Old World like WFRP was.

People with sticks up their butt and low reading comprehension skills aside, looking forward to checkingthis out. A few of the things described make me a bit iffy just from the perspective of my personal tastes, but whatever the case, love to see what you've done with this. It's always great to see that something that has been a source of so much love and inspiration for me throughout the years (WFRP) has been the same for others so much that its inspired an undertaking of this sort.

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;842528Great question!

Without having a complete view of the beta, here are the main takeaways -

System agnostic mechanics: it can be adapted for the Warhammer world, take place within the world of The Witcher, used with Dark Albion or a myriad of other homegrown rpgs that embrace a gritty set of mechanics. By divorcing the setting from the mechanics, we've developed a thematic approach to rules. Unlike OSR, the mechanics bake in the themes of a grim & perilous world, without introducing a default setting to potentially dissuade people from picking it up.

Universal system unification: no longer will you have to deal with disproportioned Talent and Skill distributions in Careers; one of the issues that riddled previous editions. Broken Career Paths have been addressed by open adoption, making any mix of Careers optimal. Although there are suggested paths, none are absolute. Want to become a Witch Hunter? You won't have to prepare the proper "path" of Careers to get there. What happens in the adventure and story drives the choice as to what Career you choose next.

Math rebalance: no longer will you have to worry about dealing with 'naked dwarf syndrome', imbalance of skill bonuses or the like. Everything has been arranged on a universal scale, appropriating numbers where they should be.

New dice mechanics: with the addition of Chaos Dice, flipping the results to succeed, simplistic chase mechanics and a host of other ways to use the dice, it brings an interesting - yet not gimmicky way - to use the dice to properly reflect the grim nature of ZWEIHANDER.

Your Career matters: every Career (called Professions) receives a unique Trait. Even if you share some of the same Skills or Talents as another person at the table, you're guaranteed to be the best at what you do. So, what does this mean? Your Coachman will be the best driver. Your Slayer will be the best at killing monsters. Your Diabolist will master Chaos Manifestations quicker. Your Jailer will be the best at interrogation. Your Knave will be the best at rubbing elbows with guttersnipes and the like. Your Peasant will be the best at dealing with fatigue and exhaustion. The list goes on, with 72 Professions (and 23 additional elite Professions) baked into the core book.

No more wound or hit points: ZWEIHANDER uses an abstract approach to recording Damage. You have a condition track that dictates when you are weak, when you suffer injuries and when you face death. The same goes for fatigue, stress, fear and poor weather effect; a condition track unifies these mechanics to reflect non-combat related "damage" you suffer (called Peril). It also takes under consideration when your insanities, maladies and addictions flare up.

Weapon output is unified: no more arguing whether a dagger is more dangerous than a pike. We eliminate corner cases by reclassifying weapons with Qualities. They distinguish each weapon from one another uniquely.

Traveling and chase rules: a simplistic approach, blended with mechanical and minor narrative elements, allows a Gamemaster to make the journey a special part of the adventure. Add in the chase rules, and you've got a number of great tools to play with.

Social intrigue events: yet again, a simple mechanics system using a semi-narrative approach helps resolve complex intrigues. It also takes under consideration social class, fame and infamy. This adds into the three types of challenges a Gamemaster can flex: combat time, travel time, social intrigue time.

Group fortune pool: you're an adventuring group, brought together by unusual circumstances. Fortune favors the bold, and the mechanics behind the pool is shared among the group (and not bound to the individual). But, lady fate still has a part to play in each character's destiny.

Passions and personalities matter: we've thrown alignment out the door. Instead, you have an Order/Chaos axiom, wherein 48 individual personality traits (drawing from the grim & perilous thematic elements) that spell out how your character views the world. And depending on how they react to it as they gain corruption, they'll either resolve these morally grey areas  within themselves (growing closer to their Order alignment) or fall prey to their own selfish needs (Chaos axiom). Both Fate Points and Afflictions are tied to this axiom.

Did I mention that the published version will be entirely free? Because it will be.

I stand by my opinion that ZWEIHANDER does Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay's mechanics better than Warhammer does. Give the GRIMDARK beta edition a look. We'd love to hear your feedback! http://grimsandperilous.com

Sounds fantastic

Will this be available in print?

Quote from: Scutter;842613Sounds fantastic

Will this be available in print?

Indeed. We are using Drive thru RPG, Lulu and Amazon print on demand.

Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;842528Great question!

Without having a complete view of the beta, here are the main takeaways -

System agnostic mechanics: it can be adapted for the Warhammer world, take place within the world of The Witcher, used with Dark Albion or a myriad of other homegrown rpgs that embrace a gritty set of mechanics. By divorcing the setting from the mechanics, we've developed a thematic approach to rules. Unlike OSR, the mechanics bake in the themes of a grim & perilous world, without introducing a default setting to potentially dissuade people from picking it up.

Universal system unification: no longer will you have to deal with disproportioned Talent and Skill distributions in Careers; one of the issues that riddled previous editions. Broken Career Paths have been addressed by open adoption, making any mix of Careers optimal. Although there are suggested paths, none are absolute. Want to become a Witch Hunter? You won't have to prepare the proper "path" of Careers to get there. What happens in the adventure and story drives the choice as to what Career you choose next.

Math rebalance: no longer will you have to worry about dealing with 'naked dwarf syndrome', imbalance of skill bonuses or the like. Everything has been arranged on a universal scale, appropriating numbers where they should be.

New dice mechanics: with the addition of Chaos Dice, flipping the results to succeed, simplistic chase mechanics and a host of other ways to use the dice, it brings an interesting - yet not gimmicky way - to use the dice to properly reflect the grim nature of ZWEIHANDER.

Your Career matters: every Career (called Professions) receives a unique Trait. Even if you share some of the same Skills or Talents as another person at the table, you're guaranteed to be the best at what you do. So, what does this mean? Your Coachman will be the best driver. Your Slayer will be the best at killing monsters. Your Diabolist will master Chaos Manifestations quicker. Your Jailer will be the best at interrogation. Your Knave will be the best at rubbing elbows with guttersnipes and the like. Your Peasant will be the best at dealing with fatigue and exhaustion. The list goes on, with 72 Professions (and 23 additional elite Professions) baked into the core book.

No more wound or hit points: ZWEIHANDER uses an abstract approach to recording Damage. You have a condition track that dictates when you are weak, when you suffer injuries and when you face death. The same goes for fatigue, stress, fear and poor weather effect; a condition track unifies these mechanics to reflect non-combat related "damage" you suffer (called Peril). It also takes under consideration when your insanities, maladies and addictions flare up.

Weapon output is unified: no more arguing whether a dagger is more dangerous than a pike. We eliminate corner cases by reclassifying weapons with Qualities. They distinguish each weapon from one another uniquely.

Traveling and chase rules: a simplistic approach, blended with mechanical and minor narrative elements, allows a Gamemaster to make the journey a special part of the adventure. Add in the chase rules, and you've got a number of great tools to play with.

Social intrigue events: yet again, a simple mechanics system using a semi-narrative approach helps resolve complex intrigues. It also takes under consideration social class, fame and infamy. This adds into the three types of challenges a Gamemaster can flex: combat time, travel time, social intrigue time.

Group fortune pool: you're an adventuring group, brought together by unusual circumstances. Fortune favors the bold, and the mechanics behind the pool is shared among the group (and not bound to the individual). But, lady fate still has a part to play in each character's destiny.

Passions and personalities matter: we've thrown alignment out the door. Instead, you have an Order/Chaos axiom, wherein 48 individual personality traits (drawing from the grim & perilous thematic elements) that spell out how your character views the world. And depending on how they react to it as they gain corruption, they'll either resolve these morally grey areas  within themselves (growing closer to their Order alignment) or fall prey to their own selfish needs (Chaos axiom). Both Fate Points and Afflictions are tied to this axiom.

Did I mention that the published version will be entirely free? Because it will be.

I stand by my opinion that ZWEIHANDER does Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay's mechanics better than Warhammer does. Give the GRIMDARK beta edition a look. We'd love to hear your feedback! http://grimsandperilous.com

Sounds great, actually!

Quote from: GreyICE;842546"Our system is universal" has been a shitty tagline since GURPS.  Actually it was a shitty tagline for GURPS too.

No, it was a great tagline with GURPS, and still is. That you don't like it is either irrelevant, or might be an actual bonus to some of the people in this thread. Say one thing about you, say you are antagonistic.
Besides, the system is clearly meant for dark and perilous settings similar to Warhammer. I just felt like mentioning it to make my position on universal systems clear.

Quote from: apparition13;842574It's different from WFRP, which is tied to a setting. It's like WFRP, but not tied to the Old World.


How do you read "the mechanics bake in the themes of a grim & perilous world" and get "the mechanics DO NOT bake in the themes of a grim & perilous world"?


Are you familiar with WFRP, because this looks like you aren't. It means the problem some people (not me) had with some careers being clearly better than others has been addressed by evening out skills. It also means that if you have a certain career in mind you don't have to plan some complex route to get to it, especially given that some careers can't get to others.

My guess, since I haven't looked yet, is that each career has one thing they have a higher limit on than any other career. So while many careers might have drive, Coachman will have the highest potential skill with drive.

"This looks like it sucks, but I'll get it anyway"?

Where does he claim it's a universal system? Hint: nowhere. He clearly says it's for WFRP like play in grim and perilous settings. All he means is it isn't tied to the Old World like WFRP was.

Pretty much what I was going to say (but probably not as well ad he did). Zwei is comparing and contrasting the game to whfrp, on which it is based