Get excited for the terrificness that is Zwiehander (http://grimandperilous.com/), a retroclone of WFRP with lots of cool new-school mechanics. Also, it's awesome.
Quote from: PencilBoy99;842298Get excited for the terrificness that is Zwiehander (http://grimandperilous.com/), a retroclone of WFRP with lots of cool new-school mechanics. Also, it's awesome.
If I wanted to play a level-based game, Zwiehander looks like a lot of fun. But even though I don't, it still looks like there will be a lot of useful bits to take from it. The illustrations they've shown have been excellent for NPCs set in the Germanies. Combined with the excellent write up Blusponge did on Frankfurt (https://braceofpistols.wordpress.com/2015/03/20/a-witch-hunters-guide-to-frankfurt/), a tour of several of the principalities looks highly likely for the PCs.
I've been pretty excited about it for a while now.
Only happened upon this game about a week ago and it looks pretty good.
The obvious question is, can you use this to run WFRP 1ed adventures?
Quote from: PencilBoy99;842298a retroclone
I really wish people would stop using RETRO-clone. Retro meant "old". The term retro-clone was used because stuff like the clones created of the 1st Edition D&D games were not the current D&D being used.
Unless you are going back several revisions, there's nothing "retro" about it. It's just a clone. Start using clone. Using retro-clone for all clones is as bad as "literally" being used as its own antonym.
Quote from: PencilBoy99;842298lots of cool new-school mechanics.
For example?
Quote from: JRT;842426I really wish people would stop using RETRO-clone. Retro meant "old". The term retro-clone was used because stuff like the clones created of the 1st Edition D&D games were not the current D&D being used.
Unless you are going back several revisions, there's nothing "retro" about it. It's just a clone. Start using clone. Using retro-clone for all clones is as bad as "literally" being used as its own antonym.
Yeah because WRFP 1/2 are the latest current versions, easily available...or not.
I'm hoping to run Dark Albion with Zweihander
Quote from: JRT;842426I really wish people would stop using RETRO-clone. Retro meant "old". The term retro-clone was used because stuff like the clones created of the 1st Edition D&D games were not the current D&D being used.
Unless you are going back several revisions, there's nothing "retro" about it. It's just a clone. Start using clone. Using retro-clone for all clones is as bad as "literally" being used as its own antonym.
Since the "current" edition of WFRP is a boxed game with narrative dice mechanics and lots of fiddly board game-style counters, cards, and bits, and this game is clearly a callback to earlier editions of WFRP, published nearly 30 years ago, I'd say that the term "retro-clone" is perfectly appropriate in this case.
Quote from: Sean !;842439I'm hoping to run Dark Albion with Zweihander
Me too
They look a perfect fit
Quote from: Sean !;842439I'm hoping to run Dark Albion with Zweihander
Same here! I also though about using it in conjunction with Heroes of the Dark Age.
Quote from: Sean !;842439I'm hoping to run Dark Albion with Zweihander
I purposefully purchased a copy of Dark Albion for this very reason!
Quote from: Scutter;842401Only happened upon this game about a week ago and it looks pretty good.
The obvious question is, can you use this to run WFRP 1ed adventures?
Thanks for the feedback.
And the answer is a resolute
YES. It is written directly as an analogue to both editions, with a "new school" twist on mechanics.
Now that we've managed to tackle Magick in a major way, we're hoping to have an open Q&A with Dan Davenport.
In the meantime you can take a look here to download the GRIMDARK beta version (http://grimandperilous.com/?page_id=95).
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;842520It is written directly as an analogue to both editions, with a "new school" twist on mechanics.
What's this 'new school twist'?
If I've got most of the stuff from 1e and 2e WFRP what does Zwiehander have to offer me?
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;842520Thanks for the feedback.
And the answer is a resolute YES. It is written directly as an analogue to both editions, with a "new school" twist on mechanics.
Now that we've managed to tackle Magick in a major way, we're hoping to have an open Q&A with Dan Davenport.
In the meantime you can take a look here to download the GRIMDARK beta version (http://grimandperilous.com/?page_id=95).
Brilliant!
Quote from: Simlasa;842522What's this 'new school twist'?
If I've got most of the stuff from 1e and 2e WFRP what does Zwiehander have to offer me?
Great question!
Without having a complete view of the beta, here are the main takeaways -
System agnostic mechanics: it can be adapted for the Warhammer world, take place within the world of The Witcher, used with Dark Albion or a myriad of other homegrown rpgs that embrace a gritty set of mechanics. By divorcing the setting from the mechanics, we've developed a thematic approach to rules. Unlike OSR, the mechanics bake in the themes of a grim & perilous world, without introducing a default setting to potentially dissuade people from picking it up.
Universal system unification: no longer will you have to deal with disproportioned Talent and Skill distributions in Careers; one of the issues that riddled previous editions. Broken Career Paths have been addressed by open adoption, making any mix of Careers optimal. Although there are suggested paths, none are absolute. Want to become a Witch Hunter? You won't have to prepare the proper "path" of Careers to get there. What happens in the adventure and story drives the choice as to what Career you choose next.
Math rebalance: no longer will you have to worry about dealing with 'naked dwarf syndrome', imbalance of skill bonuses or the like. Everything has been arranged on a universal scale, appropriating numbers where they should be.
New dice mechanics: with the addition of Chaos Dice, flipping the results to succeed, simplistic chase mechanics and a host of other ways to use the dice, it brings an interesting - yet not gimmicky way - to use the dice to properly reflect the grim nature of ZWEIHANDER.
Your Career matters: every Career (called Professions) receives a unique Trait. Even if you share some of the same Skills or Talents as another person at the table, you're guaranteed to be the best at what you do. So, what does this mean? Your Coachman will be the best driver. Your Slayer will be the best at killing monsters. Your Diabolist will master Chaos Manifestations quicker. Your Jailer will be the best at interrogation. Your Knave will be the best at rubbing elbows with guttersnipes and the like. Your Peasant will be the best at dealing with fatigue and exhaustion. The list goes on, with 72 Professions (and 23 additional elite Professions) baked into the core book.
No more wound or hit points: ZWEIHANDER uses an abstract approach to recording Damage. You have a condition track that dictates when you are weak, when you suffer injuries and when you face death. The same goes for fatigue, stress, fear and poor weather effect; a condition track unifies these mechanics to reflect non-combat related "damage" you suffer (called Peril). It also takes under consideration when your insanities, maladies and addictions flare up.
Weapon output is unified: no more arguing whether a dagger is more dangerous than a pike. We eliminate corner cases by reclassifying weapons with Qualities. They distinguish each weapon from one another uniquely.
Traveling and chase rules: a simplistic approach, blended with mechanical and minor narrative elements, allows a Gamemaster to make the journey a special part of the adventure. Add in the chase rules, and you've got a number of great tools to play with.
Social intrigue events: yet again, a simple mechanics system using a semi-narrative approach helps resolve complex intrigues. It also takes under consideration social class, fame and infamy. This adds into the three types of challenges a Gamemaster can flex: combat time, travel time, social intrigue time.
Group fortune pool: you're an adventuring group, brought together by unusual circumstances. Fortune favors the bold, and the mechanics behind the pool is shared among the group (and not bound to the individual). But, lady fate still has a part to play in each character's destiny.
Passions and personalities matter: we've thrown alignment out the door. Instead, you have an Order/Chaos axiom, wherein 48 individual personality traits (drawing from the grim & perilous thematic elements) that spell out how your character views the world. And depending on how they react to it as they gain corruption, they'll either resolve these morally grey areas within themselves (growing closer to their Order alignment) or fall prey to their own selfish needs (Chaos axiom). Both Fate Points and Afflictions are tied to this axiom.
Did I mention that the published version will be entirely free? Because it will be.
I stand by my opinion that ZWEIHANDER does Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay's (http://grimandperilous.com) mechanics better than Warhammer does. Give the GRIMDARK beta edition a look. We'd love to hear your feedback! http://grimsandperilous.com
*twitch*
Sorry, you've set my bullshit alarms off like no tomorrow.
QuoteSystem agnostic mechanics: it can be adapted for the Warhammer world, take place within the world of The Witcher, used with Dark Albion or a myriad of other homegrown rpgs that embrace a gritty set of mechanics. By divorcing the setting from the mechanics, we've developed a thematic approach to rules. Unlike OSR, the mechanics bake in the themes of a grim & perilous world, without introducing a default setting to potentially dissuade people from picking it up.
Which is different from other games how, exactly?
Fantastic Heroes and Witchery demands no particular setting from me, even having rules for sci-fi stuff. It's a pretty fucking excellent game.
LotFP asks a little more, but could run pretty much anything medieval. And if you're saying it doesn't encourage a grim and perilous world, well.
QuoteUniversal system unification: no longer will you have to deal with misproportioned Talent and Skill distributions in Careers. Broken Career Paths have been addressed by open adoption, making any mix of Careers optimal.
I have also recalibrated the Zorkulum to the Quara frequency (hint: I have no idea what this means either)
QuoteYour Career matters: every Career (called Professions) receives a unique Professional Trait. Even if you share some of the same Skills or Talents as another person at the table, you're guaranteed to be the best at what you do. So, what does this mean? Your Coachman will be the best driver. Your Slayer will be the best at killing monsters. Your Diabolist will master Chaos Manifestations quicker. Your Jailer will be the best at interrogation. Your Knave will be the best at rubbing elbows with guttersnipes and the like. Your Peasant will be the best at dealing with fatigue. The list goes on, with 72 Professions (and 23 additional elite Professions) baked into the core book.
So 95 different and separate professions. All unique.
Is this just a one paragraph unique thing grafted onto a classless system? I don't think fucking 3E hit 95 fucking classes.
I guess I'll check it out, but man am I super unexcited.
Quote from: GreyICE;842534snip
I think you don't like the idea of it at all because unlike 4e D&D, & 3e WFRP its not a skirmish war game disguised as an RPG. But thanks for shitting things up, that you haven't even looked at.
Man, I'm telling someone his presentation sucked, and you're telling me off for not tonguing his dickhole? Go blow it out your ear you sycophantic halfwit.
"Our system is universal" has been a shitty tagline since GURPS. Actually it was a shitty tagline for GURPS too.
I didn't say you had to suck his cock. I could give a shit less. You seem very negative in the majority of posts I've read of yours. About everything and anything. All I'm saying is why not channel some positive to what you do like. Because I'm not sure I've seen any of that from you. But then again what the fuck. Its the interwebs you do what you like.
Thanks for the advice Lucy, but you're not getting a nickel out of me.
Quote from: GreyICE;842546"Our system is universal" has been a shitty tagline since GURPS. Actually it was a shitty tagline for GURPS too.
Well, you may not be the target audience in that case. No less, I appreciate the feedback.
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;842560Well, you may not be the target audience in that case. No less, I appreciate the feedback.
Meh, I feel I should explain why it's a shitty tagline.
First, it's never been true. Ever. GURPS might be the closest, but no one has ever made a system that can be used for everything. At most you can be used with a lot of things.
So narrow it the fuck down. "Our system can be used with any dark fantasy or medieval setting" would be a good goal.
When someone shoots for making a system that can be good with any setting, they're making a game that isn't great with any setting. Like, you can do sci-fi with your system? Why would I play it over Traveler or Eclipse Phase or Stars Without Number? You really have a system that can support high heroic fantasy, westerns, dark fantasy, sci-fi, gonzo, and urban gang warfare? Really? All of those are good with the system, and it isn't so generic it makes my teeth ache?
All the keyword "universal" usually tells me is that someone failed to sit down and ask themselves "what would I like my system to do well?" Reminds me of when D20 was doing everything under the sun, D20 modern, D20 vampire, D20 Star Wars, D20 assmunching, and it was all crappy.
If your game is that, then how did you manage to equal GURPS? If your game isn't, don't use the word universal. Actually, I should just make this guide, if you're trying to sell an RPG, never use these words or phrases:
- Realistic
- Universal
- Action-packed
- Like X but better
- Narrative (please no)
Also stop saying "Simplistic" if you mean "streamlined" or "simple". "Simplistic" has really different connotations in English. You said it like 5 times, and I don't ever want to see it in a description. If your system is simplistic it is oversimplified, too simple: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/simplistic
You're not reclaiming the word, you're just misusing it.
And the words "Universal System Unification" are like... just... um...
Look, I'll still check out the system, but at best you REALLY need to work on your sales pitch.
GreyICE, is your real name Tim Kask?
Quote from: GreyICE;842534*twitch*
Sorry, you've set my bullshit alarms off like no tomorrow.
Which is different from other games how, exactly? Fantastic Heroes and Witchery demands no particular setting from me, even having rules for sci-fi stuff. It's a pretty fucking excellent game.
It's different from WFRP, which is tied to a setting. It's like WFRP, but not tied to the Old World.
QuoteLotFP asks a little more, but could run pretty much anything medieval. And if you're saying it doesn't encourage a grim and perilous world, well.
How do you read "the mechanics bake in the themes of a grim & perilous world" and get "the mechanics DO NOT bake in the themes of a grim & perilous world"?
QuoteI have also recalibrated the Zorkulum to the Quara frequency (hint: I have no idea what this means either)
Are you familiar with WFRP, because this looks like you aren't. It means the problem some people (not me) had with some careers being clearly better than others has been addressed by evening out skills. It also means that if you have a certain career in mind you don't have to plan some complex route to get to it, especially given that some careers can't get to others.
QuoteSo 95 different and separate professions. All unique.
Is this just a one paragraph unique thing grafted onto a classless system? I don't think fucking 3E hit 95 fucking classes.
My guess, since I haven't looked yet, is that each career has one thing they have a higher limit on than any other career. So while many careers might have drive, Coachman will have the highest potential skill with drive.
QuoteI guess I'll check it out, but man am I super unexcited.
"This looks like it sucks, but I'll get it anyway"?
Quote from: GreyICE;842546"Our system is universal" has been a shitty tagline since GURPS. Actually it was a shitty tagline for GURPS too.
Where does he claim it's a universal system? Hint: nowhere. He clearly says it's for WFRP like play in grim and perilous settings. All he means is it isn't tied to the Old World like WFRP was.
People with sticks up their butt and low reading comprehension skills aside, looking forward to checkingthis out. A few of the things described make me a bit iffy just from the perspective of my personal tastes, but whatever the case, love to see what you've done with this. It's always great to see that something that has been a source of so much love and inspiration for me throughout the years (WFRP) has been the same for others so much that its inspired an undertaking of this sort.
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;842528Great question!
Without having a complete view of the beta, here are the main takeaways -
System agnostic mechanics: it can be adapted for the Warhammer world, take place within the world of The Witcher, used with Dark Albion or a myriad of other homegrown rpgs that embrace a gritty set of mechanics. By divorcing the setting from the mechanics, we've developed a thematic approach to rules. Unlike OSR, the mechanics bake in the themes of a grim & perilous world, without introducing a default setting to potentially dissuade people from picking it up.
Universal system unification: no longer will you have to deal with disproportioned Talent and Skill distributions in Careers; one of the issues that riddled previous editions. Broken Career Paths have been addressed by open adoption, making any mix of Careers optimal. Although there are suggested paths, none are absolute. Want to become a Witch Hunter? You won't have to prepare the proper "path" of Careers to get there. What happens in the adventure and story drives the choice as to what Career you choose next.
Math rebalance: no longer will you have to worry about dealing with 'naked dwarf syndrome', imbalance of skill bonuses or the like. Everything has been arranged on a universal scale, appropriating numbers where they should be.
New dice mechanics: with the addition of Chaos Dice, flipping the results to succeed, simplistic chase mechanics and a host of other ways to use the dice, it brings an interesting - yet not gimmicky way - to use the dice to properly reflect the grim nature of ZWEIHANDER.
Your Career matters: every Career (called Professions) receives a unique Trait. Even if you share some of the same Skills or Talents as another person at the table, you're guaranteed to be the best at what you do. So, what does this mean? Your Coachman will be the best driver. Your Slayer will be the best at killing monsters. Your Diabolist will master Chaos Manifestations quicker. Your Jailer will be the best at interrogation. Your Knave will be the best at rubbing elbows with guttersnipes and the like. Your Peasant will be the best at dealing with fatigue and exhaustion. The list goes on, with 72 Professions (and 23 additional elite Professions) baked into the core book.
No more wound or hit points: ZWEIHANDER uses an abstract approach to recording Damage. You have a condition track that dictates when you are weak, when you suffer injuries and when you face death. The same goes for fatigue, stress, fear and poor weather effect; a condition track unifies these mechanics to reflect non-combat related "damage" you suffer (called Peril). It also takes under consideration when your insanities, maladies and addictions flare up.
Weapon output is unified: no more arguing whether a dagger is more dangerous than a pike. We eliminate corner cases by reclassifying weapons with Qualities. They distinguish each weapon from one another uniquely.
Traveling and chase rules: a simplistic approach, blended with mechanical and minor narrative elements, allows a Gamemaster to make the journey a special part of the adventure. Add in the chase rules, and you've got a number of great tools to play with.
Social intrigue events: yet again, a simple mechanics system using a semi-narrative approach helps resolve complex intrigues. It also takes under consideration social class, fame and infamy. This adds into the three types of challenges a Gamemaster can flex: combat time, travel time, social intrigue time.
Group fortune pool: you're an adventuring group, brought together by unusual circumstances. Fortune favors the bold, and the mechanics behind the pool is shared among the group (and not bound to the individual). But, lady fate still has a part to play in each character's destiny.
Passions and personalities matter: we've thrown alignment out the door. Instead, you have an Order/Chaos axiom, wherein 48 individual personality traits (drawing from the grim & perilous thematic elements) that spell out how your character views the world. And depending on how they react to it as they gain corruption, they'll either resolve these morally grey areas within themselves (growing closer to their Order alignment) or fall prey to their own selfish needs (Chaos axiom). Both Fate Points and Afflictions are tied to this axiom.
Did I mention that the published version will be entirely free? Because it will be.
I stand by my opinion that ZWEIHANDER does Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay's (http://grimandperilous.com) mechanics better than Warhammer does. Give the GRIMDARK beta edition a look. We'd love to hear your feedback! http://grimsandperilous.com
Sounds fantastic
Will this be available in print?
Quote from: Scutter;842613Sounds fantastic
Will this be available in print?
Indeed. We are using Drive thru RPG, Lulu and Amazon print on demand.
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;842528Great question!
Without having a complete view of the beta, here are the main takeaways -
System agnostic mechanics: it can be adapted for the Warhammer world, take place within the world of The Witcher, used with Dark Albion or a myriad of other homegrown rpgs that embrace a gritty set of mechanics. By divorcing the setting from the mechanics, we've developed a thematic approach to rules. Unlike OSR, the mechanics bake in the themes of a grim & perilous world, without introducing a default setting to potentially dissuade people from picking it up.
Universal system unification: no longer will you have to deal with disproportioned Talent and Skill distributions in Careers; one of the issues that riddled previous editions. Broken Career Paths have been addressed by open adoption, making any mix of Careers optimal. Although there are suggested paths, none are absolute. Want to become a Witch Hunter? You won't have to prepare the proper "path" of Careers to get there. What happens in the adventure and story drives the choice as to what Career you choose next.
Math rebalance: no longer will you have to worry about dealing with 'naked dwarf syndrome', imbalance of skill bonuses or the like. Everything has been arranged on a universal scale, appropriating numbers where they should be.
New dice mechanics: with the addition of Chaos Dice, flipping the results to succeed, simplistic chase mechanics and a host of other ways to use the dice, it brings an interesting - yet not gimmicky way - to use the dice to properly reflect the grim nature of ZWEIHANDER.
Your Career matters: every Career (called Professions) receives a unique Trait. Even if you share some of the same Skills or Talents as another person at the table, you're guaranteed to be the best at what you do. So, what does this mean? Your Coachman will be the best driver. Your Slayer will be the best at killing monsters. Your Diabolist will master Chaos Manifestations quicker. Your Jailer will be the best at interrogation. Your Knave will be the best at rubbing elbows with guttersnipes and the like. Your Peasant will be the best at dealing with fatigue and exhaustion. The list goes on, with 72 Professions (and 23 additional elite Professions) baked into the core book.
No more wound or hit points: ZWEIHANDER uses an abstract approach to recording Damage. You have a condition track that dictates when you are weak, when you suffer injuries and when you face death. The same goes for fatigue, stress, fear and poor weather effect; a condition track unifies these mechanics to reflect non-combat related "damage" you suffer (called Peril). It also takes under consideration when your insanities, maladies and addictions flare up.
Weapon output is unified: no more arguing whether a dagger is more dangerous than a pike. We eliminate corner cases by reclassifying weapons with Qualities. They distinguish each weapon from one another uniquely.
Traveling and chase rules: a simplistic approach, blended with mechanical and minor narrative elements, allows a Gamemaster to make the journey a special part of the adventure. Add in the chase rules, and you've got a number of great tools to play with.
Social intrigue events: yet again, a simple mechanics system using a semi-narrative approach helps resolve complex intrigues. It also takes under consideration social class, fame and infamy. This adds into the three types of challenges a Gamemaster can flex: combat time, travel time, social intrigue time.
Group fortune pool: you're an adventuring group, brought together by unusual circumstances. Fortune favors the bold, and the mechanics behind the pool is shared among the group (and not bound to the individual). But, lady fate still has a part to play in each character's destiny.
Passions and personalities matter: we've thrown alignment out the door. Instead, you have an Order/Chaos axiom, wherein 48 individual personality traits (drawing from the grim & perilous thematic elements) that spell out how your character views the world. And depending on how they react to it as they gain corruption, they'll either resolve these morally grey areas within themselves (growing closer to their Order alignment) or fall prey to their own selfish needs (Chaos axiom). Both Fate Points and Afflictions are tied to this axiom.
Did I mention that the published version will be entirely free? Because it will be.
I stand by my opinion that ZWEIHANDER does Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay's (http://grimandperilous.com) mechanics better than Warhammer does. Give the GRIMDARK beta edition a look. We'd love to hear your feedback! http://grimsandperilous.com
Sounds great, actually!
Quote from: GreyICE;842546"Our system is universal" has been a shitty tagline since GURPS. Actually it was a shitty tagline for GURPS too.
No, it was a great tagline with GURPS, and still is. That you don't like it is either irrelevant, or might be an actual bonus to some of the people in this thread. Say one thing about you, say you are antagonistic.
Besides, the system is clearly meant for dark and perilous settings similar to Warhammer. I just felt like mentioning it to make my position on universal systems clear.
Quote from: apparition13;842574It's different from WFRP, which is tied to a setting. It's like WFRP, but not tied to the Old World.
How do you read "the mechanics bake in the themes of a grim & perilous world" and get "the mechanics DO NOT bake in the themes of a grim & perilous world"?
Are you familiar with WFRP, because this looks like you aren't. It means the problem some people (not me) had with some careers being clearly better than others has been addressed by evening out skills. It also means that if you have a certain career in mind you don't have to plan some complex route to get to it, especially given that some careers can't get to others.
My guess, since I haven't looked yet, is that each career has one thing they have a higher limit on than any other career. So while many careers might have drive, Coachman will have the highest potential skill with drive.
"This looks like it sucks, but I'll get it anyway"?
Where does he claim it's a universal system? Hint: nowhere. He clearly says it's for WFRP like play in grim and perilous settings. All he means is it isn't tied to the Old World like WFRP was.
Pretty much what I was going to say (but probably not as well ad he did). Zwei is comparing and contrasting the game to whfrp, on which it is based
Seems like others covered it.
I'm unfamiliar with WFRP. Don't own it. Never played it.
Quote from: apparition13;842574Are you familiar with WFRP, because this looks like you aren't. It means the problem some people (not me) had with some careers being clearly better than others has been addressed by evening out skills. It also means that if you have a certain career in mind you don't have to plan some complex route to get to it, especially given that some careers can't get to others.
Knowing nothing about the career system in WFRP I made the same interpretation as you did. To me that is the natural, straightforward, and obvious reading.
Quote from: Bren;842756Seems like others covered it.
I'm unfamiliar with WFRP. Don't own it. Never played it. Knowing nothing about the career system in WFRP I made the same interpretation as you did. To me that is the natural, straightforward, and obvious reading.
WFRP has four classes, the standard warrior, wizard, rogue and priest. From there your character randomly rolls their starting career, which is a specific occupation of the Old World, defined by a collection of skills a character can learn and some bonuses to attributes they can earn. There are natural career progressions you can follow, with one career leading to the next, like apprentice to wizard or seam to ships captain to buccaneer etc, or you can simply start at another basic career as dictated within the course of the game. It's not much like the classes of wotc D&D, rather closer in idea to 2e's kits
Quote from: TristramEvans;842782WFRP has four classes, the standard warrior, wizard, rogue and priest. From there your character randomly rolls their starting career, which is a specific occupation of the Old World, defined by a collection of skills a character can learn and some bonuses to attributes they can earn. There are natural career progressions you can follow, with one career leading to the next, like apprentice to wizard or seam to ships captain to buccaneer etc, or you can simply start at another basic career as dictated within the course of the game. It's not much like the classes of wotc D&D, rather closer in idea to 2e's kits
Almost never played wotc D&D (maybe twice a around 2000?) I never played 2e unless the game run by the guy who had his dungeon completely mapped out at 25mm scale so he could pull out every room or passage for actual play was 2e. It was some kind of AD&D. I just meant that it isn't hard to grasp that a game might have careers that were uneven in the benefits they provided.
Certainly Honor+Intrigue careers do that. but since the PCs get 4 careers that the player selects it doesn't much matter if Farmboy kind of sucks as a career compared to Alchemist. Besides who wants their dashing swashbuckler fussing around alembics and retorts and smelling like rotten eggs all the time? Far better to get a Trusted Companion and let them be the Alchemist.
Quote from: Bren;842797Almost never played wotc D&D (maybe twice a around 2000?) I never played 2e unless the game run by the guy who had his dungeon completely mapped out at 25mm scale so he could pull out every room or passage for actual play was 2e. It was some kind of AD&D. I just meant that it isn't hard to grasp that a game might have careers that were uneven in the benefits they provided.
Certainly Honor+Intrigue careers do that. but since the PCs get 4 careers that the player selects it doesn't much matter if Farmboy kind of sucks as a career compared to Alchemist. Besides who wants their dashing swashbuckler fussing around alembics and retorts and smelling like rotten eggs all the time? Far better to get a Trusted Companion and let them be the Alchemist.
The careers were uneven, but it was kinda the philosophy behind the game. It was more focused on "this is logically what the career would have" than trying to maintain some sort of balance. However, since career progression was meant to line up with what was actually happening in the game, instead of following a level/bonus structure, and most of the advance careers required in-game activities dependant on the GM, like finding a teacher or master to apprentice to, I never thought there was really a problem with it, as long as the Gm applied a bit of common sense. There also was the option in the game like what you've described with Honor+Intrigue, of creating characters with multiple careers, which was quite common in the games I played in.
However, there was something awesome about starting the game with a group consisting of a street charlatan, a bawd, a scribe, and a ratcatcher (with a small but vicious dog). WFRP wasnt a game about playing "big damn heroes", though. It was more like Discworld meets Gilliam's Jabberwocky. It had nothing to do with dungeon-exploring adventurers, more like a Renaissance Call of Cthulhu.
I can see the appeal of playing a ratcatcher in a game where being a mage is powerful and that sort of power literally corrupts you.
Quote from: TristramEvans;842782WFRP has four classes, the standard warrior, wizard, rogue and priest.
I'm going from memory, but I think those were more like: Ranger, Academic, Warrior, Rogue.
The academic category holds both initiate and wizard's apprentice, but also many others such as scribe or seer.
This is WFRP1 we're speaking of. WFRP2 did away with those and used a fully random table instead. Or rather, roll twice and choose. Many GMs, including myself allowed to pick a career instead of determining it randomly.
I have no idea what WFRP3 did as I didn't buy any of its ridiculously overpriced products. I have not followed Zweihänder either, as I don't like some of the design choices that have been made. And like GreyICE, I don't like the presentation language used. Phrases like "world-agnostic" and "we divorced system from setting" rub me the wrong way. I used to give snippets of feedback here and there, but found it frustrating. I'm glad that peasants are not mechanically equivalent to ninjas anymore, so that's a plus, I guess.
Quote from: Moracai;842824I'm going from memory, but I think those were more like: Ranger, Academic, Warrior, Rogue.
I believe you are correct. Its been a while for me.
Quote from: TristramEvans;842782WFRP has four classes, the standard warrior, wizard, rogue and priest.
Actually, it has multiple careers, from what I remember.
Quote from: AsenRG;842839Actually, it has multiple careers, from what I remember.
In WFRP 1st edition there were these career classes where you had to qualify for. WS 35+ for warriors, BS 35+ for rangers and so forth. Or something similar. After you determined your career class, you rolled for the specific starting career from the relevant table.
Quote from: Moracai;842841In WFRP 1st edition there were these career classes where you had to qualify for. WS 35+ for warriors, BS 35+ for rangers and so forth. Or something similar. After you determined your career class, you rolled for the specific starting career from the relevant table.
I was just joking, really. The post just means that for me, WFRP2 is the best Warhammer edition. And it doesn't have classes.
Quote from: AsenRG;842847The post just means that for me, WFRP2 is the best Warhammer edition.
Rage! RAGE! Blasphemy! (Just kidding as well)
But the original had an inexplicable and wacky soulshard that WFRP2 lacked.
I've not followed the later developments of Zweihänder. I did in the beginning, and it looked pretty cool. Will definitively check it out.
Quote from: Moracai;842824WFRP2 did away with those and used a fully random table instead.
The Career Compendium had a variety of alternate tables for generating career, including those for basically determining by 1st edition class.
Quote from: Moracai;842824I have no idea what WFRP3 did
You shuffled the Career cards, picked three, decided to stick or twist, then stabbed yourself in the face repeatedly... or something like that.
Hi jadrax! :)
Quote from: jadrax;842861The Career Compendium had a variety of alternate tables for generating career, including those for basically determining by 1st edition class.
I didn't even remember that as I didn't use that splatbook. Fanmade supplements gave even more similar options.
Quote from: jadrax;842861You shuffled the Career cards, picked three, decided to stick or twist, then stabbed yourself in the face repeatedly... or something like that.
From what I've gathered from internet discussions, that sounds about right :D
Quote from: AsenRG;842847I was just joking, really. The post just means that for me, WFRP2 is the best Warhammer edition. And it doesn't have classes.
Its a shame 2e tried to price-gauge its customers by releasing a core rulebook that had maybe 25% of the stuff the original game did, and then tried to do the whole supplement mill thing.
Quote from: baragei;842853Rage! RAGE! Blasphemy! (Just kidding as well)
But the original had an inexplicable and wacky soulshard that WFRP2 lacked.
I've not followed the later developments of Zweihänder. I did in the beginning, and it looked pretty cool. Will definitively check it out.
Maybe, I just don't remember it well.
Will also be checking on the Two-Hander RPG, though!
Quote from: TristramEvans;842871Its a shame 2e tried to price-gauge its customers by releasing a core rulebook that had maybe 25% of the stuff the original game did, and then tried to do the whole supplement mill thing.
I can't blame the system for such stunts, though.
Quote from: TristramEvans;842871Its a shame 2e tried to price-gauge its customers by releasing a core rulebook that had maybe 25% of the stuff the original game did, and then tried to do the whole supplement mill thing.
To be fair (meh), some of the 1e books are incredibly expensive and/or hard to find. The 2e rules book was full color and on decent paper. Most of the splats were pretty good (thought there were some stinkers). I enjoyed it. At least it's all on pdf now.
The current iteration can die in a fire, though.
Regardless of how I feel about 1-3e, the game isn't supported any longer, and Zwiehander is a really terrific Free OSR-style take on it (I think). I love the idea of OSR-infecting all sorts of old settings and systems! It's a great idea! I think that's kind of my bigger point .
I admit to not understanding the hate for WFRP 3e. I mean, it doesn't fit my style, but that's because it's hard to play without cards and counters, and shipping to my location sucks.
The actual rules determining stuff in addition to pass or fail is a neat idea, though, and not a new one for RPG systems.
Quote from: AsenRG;843125I admit to not understanding the hate for WFRP 3e. I mean, it doesn't fit my style, but that's because it's hard to play without cards and counters, and shipping to my location sucks.
The actual rules determining stuff in addition to pass or fail is a neat idea, though, and not a new one for RPG systems.
The criticisms largely come from people who never read, let alone played the game.
Quote from: AsenRG;843125I admit to not understanding the hate for WFRP 3e. I mean, it doesn't fit my style, but that's because it's hard to play without cards and counters, and shipping to my location sucks.
The actual rules determining stuff in addition to pass or fail is a neat idea, though, and not a new one for RPG systems.
Indeed. One of the main takeaways from Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 3E was the idea of "pass, but this", "fail, but that". It's an interesting concept, which we address in ZWEIHÄNDER. The addition of Chaos Dice for Magick (and other situations) really hits the "pass, but this; fail, but that" approach.
Additionally, we address it in a binary way. While not a universally new concept, we've created distinctions within the rules to explain precisely how this works. We look at "pass, or pass exceptionally well" and "fail, or fail disastrously". This breaks down into distinct mechanics for
Success/Critical Success or
Fail/Critically Fail. For example, here's a Magick spell from the Lore of Daemonology. Keep in mind this doesn't take under consideration whether Chaos Manifestations (the analogue to Tzeentch's Curse) occurs:
TWO SELVESLesser Magick
A mirror image is instantly produced, following a set of prescribed actions you think on your mind while you manage to slip away. Distance: Yourself
Reagents: Your pointer fingers brought together, and pulled away as the casting begins
Duration: 6 + your Willpower Bonus (WB) in minutes
Effect: Make an Incantation Test. After successfully casting, you produce a mirror image of yourself. This mirror image does whatever you command it to do, albeit not having the ability to physically manipulate anything. While the mirror image conducts its activity, you are rendered completely invisible. If you take any actions which may directly impact another (such as attacking them, lifting something off their person, etc…), they may immediately make a Scrutinize Test to see through this illusion before you take action. Regardless, the actual casting of Two Selves is never apparent to anyone, perfectly disguised.
Critical Success: As above, but double the duration.
Critical Failure: As your second self steps away from you, they take upon the same characteristics as you. Filled with rage, they must kill you - for there can only be one you. For the duration, this physical doppelganger attempts take your life, using whatever means or materials you have on-hand. Once destroyed, it dissipates as if it were never there.
Quote from: AsenRG;843125I admit to not understanding the hate for WFRP 3e. I mean, it doesn't fit my style, but that's because it's hard to play without cards and counters, and shipping to my location sucks.
The actual rules determining stuff in addition to pass or fail is a neat idea, though, and not a new one for RPG systems.
I've played Warhammer Fantasy 3e and I can tell you the game is a mess. The party sheet is more of a hindrance than help, ranged opposition is near useless because players can easily bypass with burning resources and many other problems which were not playtested enough to see the light of day.
But the game has kernels of good ideas. The party sheet was a good idea, giving players small bonuses because of their affiliations and range bands does make the game easier to us for some players. The game needs a light brush of house ruling to be made more playable, but overall it is an impressive and game which feels and plays like the dark Warhammer setting.
The modules are fun though, and (with decent house rules to the core rules) the supplements are great additions.
Quote from: Crabbyapples;843134But the game has kernels of good ideas. The party sheet was a good idea, giving players small bonuses because of their affiliations and range bands does make the game easier to us for some players. The game needs a light brush of house ruling to be made more playable, but overall is an impressive and game which feels and plays like the dark Warhammer setting.
The modules are fun though, and (with decent house rules to the core rules) the supplements are great additions.
The Fortune Pool was one of our favorite takeaways from the system, once it was divorced from the Party Tension meter. We also loved the A-C-E pool, for when GMs wanted to "push" their opponents at critical moments. We managed to marry both together in ZWEIHÄNDER (http://grimandperilous.com):
THE FORTUNE POOLThe tides of order and chaos are in a constant tug of war. All are bound to the wheel of fortune as it turns, turning treacherously for both the villainous and the chivalrous alike. When these forces are pitted against one another, it can resonate acutely with their chosen emissaries. Protagonists in ZWEIHÄNDER often face unexpected twists of fate and misfortune. Whether it’s being outflanked by their foes, stumbling upon a creature’s den whilst heeding the call of nature, breaking a wagon axle while fording a river, making an offensive quip to a blue blooded lady of the court, accidentally dropping that handful of shillings you “found” in someone else’s purse or even just being at the wrong place at the wrong time, skill alone won’t necessarily remedy every situation. Even when you may be unaware that you’re in immediate danger, fortune’s wheel continues to spin as blind chance and dumb luck tends to favor the foolhardy and brave alike.
At the beginning of every Game Session, the Gamemaster places 1 token, plus a number of additional tokens equal to the number of players participating into a bowl. This means that if there are five players, a total of 6 tokens are contributed into the bowl at the beginning of the Game Session. The Gamemaster may use coins, marbles, wrapped caramel candies or any other sort of appropriate counter for players to remove from the bowl. These tokens are called “Fortune Points” and the bowl is referred to as the “Fortune Pool”. Each Fortune Point represents a currency in which the players can spend to change the outcome of events. As the session progresses, the Fortune Pool will dwindle as players tap into it.
Sometimes, the Fortune Pool will grow with the use of certain traits, given as a reward for playing to your Character’s eccentricities or foibles or other situations the Gamemaster feels it appropriate to reward the group for excellent role-play. Generally, they will be added to the pool whenever you employ your Character’s Order and Chaos Alignment at critical moments to drive the story forward. These sorts of rewards should not be routinely expected from the Gamemaster, but the more often you play to your Character’s personality, the better chance you have for the Gamemaster to grant bonus Fortune Points.
HOW TO USE THE FORTUNE POOLYou can use the Fortune Pool in a few distinct ways, moving the odds into your favor as fortune smiles upon you:
- Immediately after you fail (but not Critically Fail) a Skill Test, spend a Fortune Point to automatically succeed instead.
- During combat, spend a Fortune Point to temporarily gain 1 additional Action Point on your Turn.
- Immediately after you suffer Damage, spend a Fortune Point to ignore it entirely.
MISFORTUNE POOLWhenever you use a Fortune Point, it immediately turns into a Misfortune Point and is then contributed to the Gamemaster’s Misfortune Pool. The Gamemaster may employ the Misfortune Pool to take advantage of the same benefits as mentioned above for non-player Characters or other creatures they control. However, once Misfortune Points are spent by the Gamemaster, they are simply cast aside, expended permanently.
FINAL CONSIDERATIONIt is important to note that Fortune Points do not accrue between Game Sessions. The Fortune Pool always “refreshes” at the beginning of a Game Session, regardless of any leftover Fortune Points from a previous session. Players should feel encouraged to sacrifice Fortune Points as needed, but judiciously weigh each situation all the same. One never knows when misfortune may strike!
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;843135The Fortune Pool was one of our favorite takeaways from the system, once it was divorced from the Party Tension meter. We also loved the A-C-E pool, for when GMs wanted to "push" their opponents at critical moments. We managed to marry both together in
ZWEIHÄNDER (http://grimandperilous.com):
The Tension meter would have been a good idea if it was designed to represent morale instead of party strain. The players should have received bonuses when they do certain actions which increase the morale of the party, or decreases if the party has constant failures. Party bickering should have NEVER increased the tension meter as it discourages roleplaying.
QuoteTHE FORTUNE POOL
*snip*
I'm looking forward to seeing the final product of Zweihander. When the game is finally released, I will probably run through one of the 2e Warhammer modules I've never had a chance to run. Maybe I'll do The Thousand Thrones.
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;843127This breaks down into distinct mechanics for Success/Critical Success or Fail/Critically Fail.
Could you give us an insight how likely a critical failure/success is in this system, and do you have suggestions like you mentioned in that spell for skill use?
Quote from: Moracai;843181Could you give us an insight how likely a critical failure/success is in this system, and do you have suggestions like you mentioned in that spell for skill use?
Critical Failures and Successes for Skills are the province of the GM, but there are special guidelines to help shape the response for players.
Here's a snippet from the How To Play section describing the general approach with how Critical Success/Failure system works:
CRITICAL SUCCESS AND CRITICAL FAILUREIn certain cases, you may generate what is called a “Match” with your Percentile Dice. A Match is whenever you generate the same die result on each of the dice. These can have a dramatic impact on your successes and failures. If you succeed your Skill Test and the dice Match, you incur a Critical Success. This may mean you dole out a terrible injury to your foe, gain a temporary beneficial effect, add a bonus to your ally’s next roll or do a number of other things your Gamemaster will describe. These are generally contextual, and the Gamemaster will announce any additional benefits or penalties tied to a Match. Your Talents and Professional Traits may confer additional bonuses as well.
EXAMPLE
“Patches” has a 45% Total Chance for success. Rolling Percentile Dice, generates a 33% - a Match! Because it’s below the Total Chance for success, it qualifies as a Critical Success. The player announces that Patches has Critically Succeeded the Skill Test. However, should you fail your Skill Test and the dice Match, you incur a Critical Failure. The effects of Critical Failures are always terrible. Your Gamemaster will tell you what the effects of these sorts of Matches are as you play. Sometimes, they may not even describe the terrible effect until it really matters. Imagine what would happen if you attempted to use Guile on a local constable and you Critically Failed. They may just throw you into a dank cell for trying to “get smart” with them. These negative effects always dramatically enhance the story and your trials and tribulations.
EXAMPLE
Mercutio Salvatore has a 45% Total Chance for success. Rolling Percentile Dice generates a 55% - a Match! Because it’s above his Total Chance for success and it’s a Match, it qualifies as a Critical Failure. The Gamesmaster notes that it is a Critically Failed Skill Test and considers the resulting complications. THE BENEFITS OF CRITICAL FAILURETo take the “sting” out of a potentially perilous result, any time you Critically Fails a Skill Test, you gain 25 Reward Points. We will talk more about how Reward Points are spent in Chapter Eight: Professions.
---------- edit ----------Here is a snippet from the Combat chapter on Critical Success and Critical Failure during attacks:
MATCH - CRITICAL SUCCESS!Some attacks allow an attacker to trigger a special effect whenever they roll a Critical Success with an Attack Action. In these cases, Talents, Professional and Racial Traits allow an attacker to incur a mechanical bonus or new effect, covered in its description. However, not all attackers gain these sort of abilities. In cases where the attacker doesn’t gain a special effect that triggers on a Match with an attack, they are left Defenseless to it. This means that they cannot Parry melee Damage, Dodge ranged Damage, Resist Perilous Stunts or the effects of Casted Magick.
MATCH - CRITICAL FAILURE?Rolling poorly with an attack has no immediate adverse effect. However, should an attacker roll a Critical Failure with any Attack Action or Perilous Stunt, it causes combat fatigue from overexertion. They automatically move down the Peril Condition Track by one step in these cases.
Thanks for the clarification :)
Quote from: TristramEvans;843126The criticisms largely come from people who never read, let alone played the game.
That's possible, but I'd have to wonder why anyone would do that.
Quote from: Crabbyapples;843134I've played Warhammer Fantasy 3e and I can tell you the game is a mess. The party sheet is more of a hindrance than help, ranged opposition is near useless because players can easily bypass with burning resources and many other problems which were not playtested enough to see the light of day.
But the game has kernels of good ideas. The party sheet was a good idea, giving players small bonuses because of their affiliations and range bands does make the game easier to us for some players. The game needs a light brush of house ruling to be made more playable, but overall it is an impressive and game which feels and plays like the dark Warhammer setting.
The modules are fun though, and (with decent house rules to the core rules) the supplements are great additions.
Well, that was my point. Seriously, I no longer remember what our GM houseruled, but I'm sure there was lots of houseruling in 2e, too.
Anyway, it doesn't actually matter. I just hope Zweihander takes a note from all editions of the game, and doesn't hesitate slaughtering the sacred cows to replace them with cows that give more milk:D!
Quote from: AsenRG;843200That's possible, but I'd have to wonder why anyone would do that.
lol, have you not met The Internet yet?
Quote from: TristramEvans;843208lol, have you not met The Internet yet?
I know there are people that do that. I still find it a poor use of their time, and even poorer use of my time.
I'm not discussing whether your conclusion is right, mind you, just my theoretical reaction if it happens to be right.
I was wistfully flipping through my copy of WFRP 1 just the other day and wishing it were available in a proper PDF so I could run it online. This, I suspect, may be the answer to that particular problem.
It might be fun to make up a modified career system based on the misunderstood version we used when I was at secondary school. The hard part was getting the necessary Trappings, which the GM used to spin out into a series of weird but still pretty perilous adventures around the city.
Quote from: Caudex;843260I was wistfully flipping through my copy of WFRP 1 just the other day and wishing it were available in a proper PDF so I could run it online.
*cough *scribd* cough*
Quote from: TristramEvans;843261*cough *scribd* cough*
Yeah, I know. Hence "proper". Thanks, though.
The Scribd copy is a massive image scan. It's kind of OK for me since I know where everything is but if you haven't played before it'd be a nightmare.
Quote from: Caudex;843266Yeah, I know. Hence "proper". Thanks, though.
The Scribd copy is a massive image scan. It's kind of OK for me since I know where everything is but if you haven't played before it'd be a nightmare.
Its not a scan, but this might help you: http://wfrp1e.wikia.com/wiki/Table_Of_Contents
Quote from: jadrax;843277Its not a scan, but this might help you: http://wfrp1e.wikia.com/wiki/Table_Of_Contents
Nice one, thanks.
Quote from: Sean !;842439I'm hoping to run Dark Albion with Zweihander
I imagine that would work, yes.
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;842519I purposefully purchased a copy of Dark Albion for this very reason!
Well there you go! Even endorsed by the designer himself.
Yea, Dark Albion with Zweihander would be awesome!
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;842528Great question!
Without having a complete view of the beta, here are the main takeaways -
System agnostic mechanics: it can be adapted for the Warhammer world, take place within the world of The Witcher, used with Dark Albion or a myriad of other homegrown rpgs that embrace a gritty set of mechanics. By divorcing the setting from the mechanics, we've developed a thematic approach to rules. Unlike OSR, the mechanics bake in the themes of a grim & perilous world, without introducing a default setting to potentially dissuade people from picking it up.
Universal system unification: no longer will you have to deal with disproportioned Talent and Skill distributions in Careers; one of the issues that riddled previous editions. Broken Career Paths have been addressed by open adoption, making any mix of Careers optimal. Although there are suggested paths, none are absolute. Want to become a Witch Hunter? You won't have to prepare the proper "path" of Careers to get there. What happens in the adventure and story drives the choice as to what Career you choose next.
Math rebalance: no longer will you have to worry about dealing with 'naked dwarf syndrome', imbalance of skill bonuses or the like. Everything has been arranged on a universal scale, appropriating numbers where they should be.
New dice mechanics: with the addition of Chaos Dice, flipping the results to succeed, simplistic chase mechanics and a host of other ways to use the dice, it brings an interesting - yet not gimmicky way - to use the dice to properly reflect the grim nature of ZWEIHANDER.
Your Career matters: every Career (called Professions) receives a unique Trait. Even if you share some of the same Skills or Talents as another person at the table, you're guaranteed to be the best at what you do. So, what does this mean? Your Coachman will be the best driver. Your Slayer will be the best at killing monsters. Your Diabolist will master Chaos Manifestations quicker. Your Jailer will be the best at interrogation. Your Knave will be the best at rubbing elbows with guttersnipes and the like. Your Peasant will be the best at dealing with fatigue and exhaustion. The list goes on, with 72 Professions (and 23 additional elite Professions) baked into the core book.
No more wound or hit points: ZWEIHANDER uses an abstract approach to recording Damage. You have a condition track that dictates when you are weak, when you suffer injuries and when you face death. The same goes for fatigue, stress, fear and poor weather effect; a condition track unifies these mechanics to reflect non-combat related "damage" you suffer (called Peril). It also takes under consideration when your insanities, maladies and addictions flare up.
Weapon output is unified: no more arguing whether a dagger is more dangerous than a pike. We eliminate corner cases by reclassifying weapons with Qualities. They distinguish each weapon from one another uniquely.
Traveling and chase rules: a simplistic approach, blended with mechanical and minor narrative elements, allows a Gamemaster to make the journey a special part of the adventure. Add in the chase rules, and you've got a number of great tools to play with.
Social intrigue events: yet again, a simple mechanics system using a semi-narrative approach helps resolve complex intrigues. It also takes under consideration social class, fame and infamy. This adds into the three types of challenges a Gamemaster can flex: combat time, travel time, social intrigue time.
Group fortune pool: you're an adventuring group, brought together by unusual circumstances. Fortune favors the bold, and the mechanics behind the pool is shared among the group (and not bound to the individual). But, lady fate still has a part to play in each character's destiny.
Passions and personalities matter: we've thrown alignment out the door. Instead, you have an Order/Chaos axiom, wherein 48 individual personality traits (drawing from the grim & perilous thematic elements) that spell out how your character views the world. And depending on how they react to it as they gain corruption, they'll either resolve these morally grey areas within themselves (growing closer to their Order alignment) or fall prey to their own selfish needs (Chaos axiom). Both Fate Points and Afflictions are tied to this axiom.
Did I mention that the published version will be entirely free? Because it will be.
I stand by my opinion that ZWEIHANDER does Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay's (http://grimandperilous.com) mechanics better than Warhammer does. Give the GRIMDARK beta edition a look. We'd love to hear your feedback! http://grimsandperilous.com
Sounds awesome!
I am not a big fan of WFRPs system (I like the setting, tough), but your version seems to have a lot of the solutions I have adopted to my own "gritty" system (which is 2d10 instead of d%, but also uses a "Chaos Die" - maybe with different effects - wounds and corruption, very inspired by WH).
The way you seem to be doing carrers, something which I usually dislike, also seems to be very cool. And the critical failures for spells seem a lot of fun...
Good luck! I will surely check it out!
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;842520Now that we've managed to tackle Magick in a major way, we're hoping to have an open Q&A with Dan Davenport.
Just let me know when you'd like to schedule it. Follow the link in my signature to see the schedule and to contact me. :)
Quote from: Dan Davenport;848564Just let me know when you'd like to schedule it. Follow the link in my signature to see the schedule and to contact me. :)
Now that we have our hands around magic, I am totally on board with getting this scheduled.
Thanks!
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;843127...
Critical Failure: As your second self steps away from you, they take upon the same characteristics as you. Filled with rage, they must kill you - for there can only be one you. For the duration, this physical doppelganger attempts take your life, using whatever means or materials you have on-hand. Once destroyed, it dissipates as if it were never there.
So... on crit fail, are you still invisible, so others see you suddenly chasing and attacking something invisible, until you somehow break the invisibility by messing with someone else?
If your invisibility breaks, is it broken for everyone, or only the person you mess with? What if you mess with something that makes an obvious motion or sound with a phsyical object, like opening a door or drawbridge or pushing a cart or bursting a bag of flour?
Also, can your usual twin self do things to people, and to the real world? Do they have your equipment and magic items and abilities? So could you use this to double your abilities, for example by telling your fake self to attack someone while you cast buff spells on your fake self?
Quote from: Skarg;848569So could you use this to double your abilities, for example by telling your fake self to attack someone while you cast buff spells on your fake self?
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;843127Critical Failure: As your second self steps away from you, they take upon the same characteristics as you. Filled with rage, they must kill you - for there can only be one you. For the duration, this physical doppelganger attempts take your life, using whatever means or materials you have on-hand. Once destroyed, it dissipates as if it were never there.
I got the impression the doppelganger isn't going to listen to anything his evil twin (i.e. your PC) tells him to do. In the end, there can be only one.
Quote from: Skarg;848569So... on crit fail, are you still invisible, so others see you suddenly chasing and attacking something invisible, until you somehow break the invisibility by messing with someone else?
If your invisibility breaks, is it broken for everyone, or only the person you mess with? What if you mess with something that makes an obvious motion or sound with a phsyical object, like opening a door or drawbridge or pushing a cart or bursting a bag of flour?
Also, can your usual twin self do things to people, and to the real world? Do they have your equipment and magic items and abilities? So could you use this to double your abilities, for example by telling your fake self to attack someone while you cast buff spells on your fake self?
Good question!
Firstly, failed magick never takes effect. Critical Failure means that it doesn't take effect, and grows significantly worse.
Critical Failures for Magick have purposefully been let ambiguous, so that the Gamemaster can use them as a guide to figure out what happens. Although some do have raw mechanics lain before them, they have a relatively narrative attitude.
Were it me in this situation, I'd say that the doppelganger is perfect in every way - trappings, equipment, personality, abilities (but leaning on their Chaos Alignment). As the doppelganger is destroyed, so is the chaos-stuff that they're made from.
Quote from: PencilBoy99;842298cool new-school mechanics.
No such thing.
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;848602Good question!
Firstly, failed magick never takes effect. Critical Failure means that it doesn't take effect, and grows significantly worse.
Critical Failures for Magick have purposefully been let ambiguous, so that the Gamemaster can use them as a guide to figure out what happens. Although some do have raw mechanics lain before them, they have a relatively narrative attitude.
Were it me in this situation, I'd say that the doppelganger is perfect in every way - trappings, equipment, personality, abilities (but leaning on their Chaos Alignment). As the doppelganger is destroyed, so is the chaos-stuff that they're made from.
I see. That's cool, and makes sense for a chaotic failure result. It also avoids people trying to game failures by knowing exactly how they work.
For the doubling effects though, I was wondering about successes. Does it have to be used to make an escape? Can you instruct your double to attack the enemy, so essentially this gets you a disposable suicide copy of yourself? Can your double cast spells?
Quote from: Skarg;848819I see. That's cool, and makes sense for a chaotic failure result. It also avoids people trying to game failures by knowing exactly how they work.
For the doubling effects though, I was wondering about successes. Does it have to be used to make an escape? Can you instruct your double to attack the enemy, so essentially this gets you a disposable suicide copy of yourself? Can your double cast spells?
It specifically says "double the duration", so no. You'd only extend the duration by x2.
Quote from: ZWEIHÄNDER;848824It specifically says "double the duration", so no. You'd only extend the duration by x2.
Ok, but that's not what I meant by doubling. I meant, it says you can tell your double to do something, and run. What if you also know other spells, including something you could cast without directly affecting others so you won't lose the invisibility. Can you tell your double to cast obvious spells, or stay and fight, while you, instead of running away, stick around and cast spells that won't get you discovered? Or even, say you know this spell and fireball - can you cast this spell, tell the double to cast fireball, and then not care about your invisibility and cast fireball yourself. i.e. Can you use it not to run away, but to create a friendly doppleganger and so double your own fighting power?
Quote from: Skarg;849028Ok, but that's not what I meant by doubling. I meant, it says you can tell your double to do something, and run. What if you also know other spells, including something you could cast without directly affecting others so you won't lose the invisibility. Can you tell your double to cast obvious spells, or stay and fight, while you, instead of running away, stick around and cast spells that won't get you discovered? Or even, say you know this spell and fireball - can you cast this spell, tell the double to cast fireball, and then not care about your invisibility and cast fireball yourself. i.e. Can you use it not to run away, but to create a friendly doppleganger and so double your own fighting power?
Ah, yes - I see now.
It is an illusion, and cannot physically manipulate anything. It otherwise works as a mirror image, albeit under your control, while you are invisible.