5E DMs/Players status check: Still liking it?

Natty Bodak · June 23, 2015, 11:51:56 AM

Quote from: Sommerjon;837787Not cherry-picking.
A CR3 arcane spellcaster in 5e is 5th lvl.
There is these 2 levels of uncertainty for groups if a DM uses them. How different would this be if the DM decides to allow the NPCs to have the PC side of the class as well, Spell points. Bam-Bam 2 fireballs one round.

Do you mean sorcery points for meta-magic? If so, you can only twin spells that target a single creature, so Fireball doesn't qualify.

Despite picking that nit, your point is very valid. If NPCs get PC stuff, it's s tougher world.

Sommerjon · June 23, 2015, 12:52:05 PM

Meant Quicken Spell.

Natty Bodak · June 23, 2015, 01:26:32 PM

Quote from: Sommerjon;837795Meant Quicken Spell.

Ah. I don't have the text of Quicken Spell handy, but in that case even though you can make fireball a bonus action, you can't then cast a non-cantrip with your remaining action due to the general spellcasting limitations under Casting Time.

Sommerjon · June 23, 2015, 04:13:19 PM

Quote from: Natty Bodak;837800Ah. I don't have the text of Quicken Spell handy, but in that case even though you can make fireball a bonus action, you can't then cast a non-cantrip with your remaining action due to the general spellcasting limitations under Casting Time.

Ah, that's true. Knew there was something about that. I'd play attention more if I really gave a shit about this edition.
Makes you wonder why even bother to play as a Sorcerer.

Natty Bodak · June 23, 2015, 04:27:09 PM

Quote from: Sommerjon;837830Ah, that's true. Knew there was something about that. I'd play attention more if I really gave a shit about this edition.
Makes you wonder why even bother to play as a Sorcerer.

I'm a fan of 5e so far, but I'm with you on the Sorcerer thing. Comparing the evocation Wizard's always-on Sculpt Spell to the Sorcerer's point-fueled Carefull Spel, you have to wonder whose girlfriend the Sorcerer stole. I'm sure there's great situational value in Sorcerer metamagic, but that sticks out to me like a sore thumb.

Also, they really should have invested a couple of extra words for a few reminders about these little rule cascades/references in the text of things like Quicken Spell and darkvision, etc.

cranebump · June 23, 2015, 04:32:24 PM

Can cast this, if X, which lets you Y, but only if Z...

That's it--I'm quitting 5E as of this moment.:-)

Omega · June 23, 2015, 04:50:36 PM

Quote from: Sommerjon;837795Meant Quicken Spell.

Quicken spell turns the spell into a bonus action spell. Which leaves you with either A: only a cantrip if you cast it first, or B: unable to quicken the fireball because you already cast a non-cantrip.

Natty Bodak · June 23, 2015, 04:52:44 PM

Quote from: cranebump;837837Can cast this, if X, which lets you Y, but only if Z...

That's it--I'm quitting 5E as of this moment.:-)

If you would have followed the PHB index redirections all the way through, you would have seen that quitting requires a free hand, which can also be the same hand you use for a rude somatic gesture, but is not hindered by the grapple condition.

But you can always house rule it!

Omega · June 23, 2015, 04:55:40 PM

Quote from: cranebump;837837Can cast this, if X, which lets you Y, but only if Z...

That's it--I'm quitting 5E as of this moment.:-)

Its only "Can cast Bonus spell if primary spell is cantrip.

Twinned spell just turns a spell into a bonus spell. In this case the rule wording is to prevent abuse and to curb some of the rules lawyers trying to game the system.

And someone still tried to claim they could cast fireball then cast a quickened fireball because its a bonus action came after.

Nice try. but sorry. No you aint. Next.

cranebump · June 23, 2015, 07:26:56 PM

Quote from: Natty Bodak;837839If you would have followed the PHB index redirections all the way through, you would have seen that quitting requires a free hand, which can also be the same hand you use for a rude somatic gesture, but is not hindered by the grapple condition.

But you can always house rule it!

I prefer THIS explanation.:-)

Opaopajr · June 23, 2015, 08:50:41 PM

Quote from: Natty Bodak;837839If you would have followed the PHB index redirections all the way through, you would have seen that quitting requires a free hand, which can also be the same hand you use for a rude somatic gesture, but is not hindered by the grapple condition.

But you can always house rule it!

It helps if you have an Aggravating Focus to ignore required additional material — and you can juggle it in the same hand doing the rude somatic gesture!

rawma · June 23, 2015, 11:48:37 PM

Quote from: Sommerjon;837787Not cherry-picking.
A CR3 arcane spellcaster in 5e is 5th lvl.

So it's cherry picking a party and an enemy that has a CR that doesn't match the challenge it presents to that party (with the advantage of bad tactics by the party and winning initiative). CR isn't an infallible indicator of how tough something is in all circumstances. The example is still cherry picking.

Sommerjon · June 24, 2015, 05:04:44 AM

Quote from: rawma;837892So it's cherry picking a party and an enemy that has a CR that doesn't match the challenge it presents to that party (with the advantage of bad tactics by the party and winning initiative). CR isn't an infallible indicator of how tough something is in all circumstances. The example is still cherry picking.

Who cares about "tactics" this is rpgsite no matter what is said another has already gone through that very thing with a completely different outcome dozens of times already.

I don't care what people are doing in their home games.

I am looking at their published products. PotA is silly about it. 1d4 CR3 spellcasters on flying mounts no less. That is an encounter a 3rd lvl group can go up against. Luckily they don't have fireball, they gots lightning bolts. If played the way they suggest, they ain't stopping to parley. They be killing you and taking your stuff.

rawma · June 25, 2015, 12:17:45 AM

Quote from: Sommerjon;837911Who cares about "tactics"

Those of us whose characters are still alive care. Others can carve those four words onto their characters' tombstones.

QuoteI am looking at their published products. PotA is silly about it. 1d4 CR3 spellcasters on flying mounts no less. That is an encounter a 3rd lvl group can go up against. Luckily they don't have fireball, they gots lightning bolts. If played the way they suggest, they ain't stopping to parley. They be killing you and taking your stuff.

Do you and Doom ever read the published products?

Spoiler

I believe you're referencing the Air Cult Skyriders, page 30: They don't appear in the "Early Travels" table; the "Later Travels" table is for chapter 5, when the PCs should be 10th level, if you follow the various Character Advancement sidebars (pages 41, 75, 113). But they could appear via the River Travels table, although the river is at least 40 miles away (map, page 32) and they are led by a Feathergale Knight who "survey the land around Feathergale Spire, guarding the entrance to the air cult's hidden temple" and their cult "relies upon deception and trickery to ... defeat its enemies" (page 189) - all giving little motivation to attack as you suggest. (The player characters can approach Feathergale Spire and be invited inside if they're friendly - "Peaceful visitors who approach openly are welcome", page 46.). And 3rd level PCs have probably not brought much attention to themselves, except perhaps by giving the Cult of the Black Earth a black eye in Red Larch, which will probably endear them to the air cult. Players with 3rd level characters who do attack people on hippogriffs and giant vultures without knowing what's going on should be killed (this is "bad strategy" rather than "bad tactics"), although the DM can rescue them with friendly aarakocra (as on page 50).

The very bad organization of that book is much more annoying than the encounter you complain of.

Sommerjon · June 25, 2015, 06:34:49 PM

Quote from: rawma;838015Those of us whose characters are still alive care. Others can carve those four words onto their characters' tombstones.

You forgot this is rpgsite no matter what is said another has already gone through that very thing with a completely different outcome dozens of times already.

See that's the problem with "tactics" on the internet.

Quote from: rawma;838015Do you and Doom ever read the published products?

Yes.

Quote from: rawma;838015I believe you're referencing the Air Cult Skyriders, page 30: They don't appear in the "Early Travels" table; the "Later Travels" table is for chapter 5, when the PCs should be 10th level, if you follow the various Character Advancement sidebars (pages 41, 75, 113). But they could appear via the River Travels table, although the river is at least 40 miles away (map, page 32) and they are led by a Feathergale Knight who "survey the land around Feathergale Spire, guarding the entrance to the air cult's hidden temple" and their cult "relies upon deception and trickery to ... defeat its enemies" (page 189) - all giving little motivation to attack as you suggest.

Strange how you are only quoting part of their description. Them there other parts ain't making them look so nice. How convenient for you.

Quote from: rawma;838015(The player characters can approach Feathergale Spire and be invited inside if they're friendly - "Peaceful visitors who approach openly are welcome", page 46.).

Has squat to do with a random river travels encounters.

Oh look. All of them have deception as a way to gain entrance. Your point?

Quote from: rawma;838015And 3rd level PCs have probably not brought much attention to themselves,

Random encounter is random?

Quote from: rawma;838015except perhaps by giving the Cult of the Black Earth a black eye in Red Larch, which will probably endear them to the air cult.

If you follow the choo-choo? What happens if the group doesn't want to follow the choo-choo?

Quote from: rawma;838015Players with 3rd level characters who do attack people on hippogriffs and giant vultures without knowing what's going on should be killed (this is "bad strategy" rather than "bad tactics"),

Oh, I see. NPCs have to parley How unimaginative.

Quote from: rawma;838015although the DM can rescue them with friendly aarakocra (as on page 50).

Sorry the aarakocra are over 50 miles away from the river travels. I guess you could have aarakcocra always shadow air cultists, just in case.

Quote from: rawma;838015The very bad organization of that book is much more annoying than the encounter you complain of.

Not complaining about the encounter. It is an encounter that a group can go against.