TheRPGSite

Quote from: Skywalker;833280I find DMing 5e to be more pain than I want these days TBH and the playstyle still less freewheeling than I prefer.

Quote from: Omega;833283Much the same, a 9 out of 10. The MM and one tiny element from the DMG for me drag it down from a 10.

Quote from: danskmacabre;833288when the MM2 comes out.

Quote from: Doom;833337Well, I'm liking it, but the magic/spell system has real issues.

I find the cleric is casting cantrips every round (Sacred Flame ftw!), along with bonus action healing spells, except when he starts firing off some pretty amazing damaging spells. The cleric is basically an armor-wearing wizard with healing now.

I find the real issue is the deadly combo:

1) Extra, extra, spells for spellcasters.
2) Absolutely no way to stop spellcasting.
3) Easy to cast multiple spells per round.
4) Higher damage on spell output.

We're back in "pretty stupid not to be a spellcaster" territory again, and broken spells (polymorph, wizard eye, some cantrips and many rituals) are pretty problematic, starting around level 7.

Quote from: Doom;833337And that's a single level 5 wizard, probably not a CR 5 encounter by the rules....and he'll even have enough spells to make a getaway.

Quote from: Omega;8333633: er? since When? My Warlock cant?, the Wizard cant?

Quote from: Panjumanju;833403Honestly, I'm enjoying it less and less. The day after tomorrow I'm running the last game of a 20 session campaign, and what seemed like minor quibbles with the system have become full-blown holes in the system.

It all comes down to: The PCs have too many fiddly bits. There is too much magic; spellcasters each get an armoury of cantrips, and everyone even still has a preposterous bag of special little exception powers of which they can hardly keep track.

The reward of roleplaying should be the experience, not fiddly bits.

//Panjumanju

Quote from: Doom;833337I find the cleric is casting cantrips every round (Sacred Flame ftw!), along with bonus action healing spells, except when he starts firing off some pretty amazing damaging spells. The cleric is basically an armor-wearing wizard with healing now.

Quote from: Doom;833337I find the real issue is the deadly combo:

1) Extra, extra, spells for spellcasters.
2) Absolutely no way to stop spellcasting.
3) Easy to cast multiple spells per round.
4) Higher damage on spell output.

Quote from: Doom;833337"pretty stupid not to be a spellcaster"

Quote from: Doom;833337only an idiot makes a 5e character without a good Dex bonus

Quote from: Doom;833337Well, I'm liking it, but the magic/spell system has real issues.

I find the cleric is casting cantrips every round (Sacred Flame ftw!), along with bonus action healing spells, except when he starts firing off some pretty amazing damaging spells. The cleric is basically an armor-wearing wizard with healing now.

I find the real issue is the deadly combo:

1) Extra, extra, spells for spellcasters.
2) Absolutely no way to stop spellcasting.
3) Easy to cast multiple spells per round.
4) Higher damage on spell output.

We're back in "pretty stupid not to be a spellcaster" territory again, and broken spells (polymorph, wizard eye, some cantrips and many rituals) are pretty problematic, starting around level 7.

Quote from: Doom;833337Consider the devastation when a party of level 5 characters meets a level 5 wizard, with no special abilities.

The wizard's effective AC can easily be 19 (shield, mage armor, dex bonus), so he's almost certainly going to live 2 rounds. There's basically no way to prevent the wizard from casting two, 8d6, fireballs. Now, only an idiot makes a 5e character without a good Dex bonus, so it's quite reasonable to make one of those saving throws, but both is unlikely.

So, the whole party is pretty much guaranteed to take 12d6 damage (yes, there may be one character with evasion). That's enough to bring most characters to 0, and kill any character that is a little unlucky enough to fail both saving throws (around 25% chance, so that's a death for a typical 4-character party). Give the wizard any special abilities like a PC wizard would have, and we're talking real trouble here.

• Command (1st level Cleric spell)
• Silence (2nd level Cleric spell)
• Counterspell (3rd level Wizard spell)
• Sleep (1st level Wizard spell, cast as a second level spell in my particular case)
• A 5th level Rogue with Assasinate

Quote from: Doom;833337And that's a single level 5 wizard, probably not a CR 5 encounter by the rules....and he'll even have enough spells to make a getaway.

And that's just if the wizard lives 2 rounds, toss in a few extra rounds and multiple PC deaths are likely.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;8334043E/PF/4E have even more though. Did you not run games with those?

Quote from: Doom;833337Well, I'm liking it, but the magic/spell system has real issues.

I find the cleric is casting cantrips every round (Sacred Flame ftw!), along with bonus action healing spells, except when he starts firing off some pretty amazing damaging spells. The cleric is basically an armor-wearing wizard with healing now.

I find the real issue is the deadly combo:

1) Extra, extra, spells for spellcasters.
2) Absolutely no way to stop spellcasting.
3) Easy to cast multiple spells per round.
4) Higher damage on spell output.

We're back in "pretty stupid not to be a spellcaster" territory again, and broken spells (polymorph, wizard eye, some cantrips and many rituals) are pretty problematic, starting around level 7.

Consider the devastation when a party of level 5 characters meets a level 5 wizard, with no special abilities.

The wizard's effective AC can easily be 19 (shield, mage armor, dex bonus), so he's almost certainly going to live 2 rounds. There's basically no way to prevent the wizard from casting two, 8d6, fireballs. Now, only an idiot makes a 5e character without a good Dex bonus, so it's quite reasonable to make one of those saving throws, but both is unlikely.

So, the whole party is pretty much guaranteed to take 12d6 damage (yes, there may be one character with evasion). That's enough to bring most characters to 0, and kill any character that is a little unlucky enough to fail both saving throws (around 25% chance, so that's a death for a typical 4-character party). Give the wizard any special abilities like a PC wizard would have, and we're talking real trouble here.

And that's a single level 5 wizard, probably not a CR 5 encounter by the rules....and he'll even have enough spells to make a getaway.

And that's just if the wizard lives 2 rounds, toss in a few extra rounds and multiple PC deaths are likely.

So, yeah, the magic system has some real cracks in it. I'm thinking about simply removing "enemy wizard" as a foe, and tossing in alot more magic-type resistances to monsters (is anything in the game resistant to sonic damage?).

Quote from: Doom;833337Now, only an idiot makes a 5e character without a good Dex bonus...

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;833420The PCs have rolled, like, two dex saves in twelve sessions of my campaign. Your mileage will vary.

Quote from: snooggums;833436There's initiative and AC bonuses from Dex as well.

Quote from: danskmacabre;833282That's interesting, as I find it really comfortable to run and really smooth.
If anything, it seems easier to run than ever.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;833394I think he's talking about the case where you can cast a spell as a bonus action (e.g. Healing Word), and then you are allowed to cast another spell with your remaining action if that additional spell is a cantrip and has a castng time of one action.

Quote from: Omega;833458I  glanced through the classes and not even the cleric has that? The only thing close is the Eldritch Knight who can make a weapon attack as a bonus after using a cantrip, and the War Priest who can make a weapon attack after using an attack action. There are others others but they seem fairly situational.

The closest to multiple spells a round might be the Eldritch Knight again. But only if you read the extra attacks as meaning extra spells. That is debatable due to the wording. But about all I can think of that might fit.

QuoteCasting Time

Most spells require a single action to cast, but some
spells require a bonus action, a reaction, or much more
time to cast.

Bonus Action

A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You
must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell,
provided that you haven’t already taken a bonus action
this turn. You can’t cast another spell during the same
turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.

Quote from: Omega;833458His whole post comes across weird. Almost like he never actually even read the rules and was just cut-n-pasting someones trolling.

Back on topic.
Another thing I am still liking about 5e is that they have not (yet) started the whole expansion book routine. They havent overwhelmed with setting books, player expansions, yadda-yadda. Its been confined to the modules and the player option PDFs.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;833479Is it just me or are the Warlock cantrips super strong?

Quote from: Opaopajr;833493From the start you can Healing Word bonus action heal spell at a distance (only bother using it to wake a downed ally from 0) and throw out Sacred Flame cantrip for the action.

Quote from: Opaopajr;833493Natty Bodak & Doom are right, you can do some crazy things with casting... If you know what you're doing you can overwhelm GMs with fiddly bits.

Quote from: Opaopajr;8334934e did better to reference stat material on sheet, thus less looking up keywords and the like, but got into maintenance counter hell. 5e simplified a lot of the chit maintenance, but it is still a challenge to remember what every PC can do.

Quote from: Omega;833498Where are you getting this healing word bonus action for the cleric from? I assume I am missing it somewhere. But where? I am not seeing it in the cleric entry? None of the domains mention healing word as a bonus action at level 1?

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;833515D&D in its current paradigm needs more monsters with the built-in ability to dispell and counterspell.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;833394I think he's talking about the case where you can cast a spell as a bonus action (e.g. Healing Word), and then you are allowed to cast another spell with your remaining action if that additional spell is a cantrip and has a castng time of one action.

Quote from: Omega;833458His whole post comes across weird. Almost like he never actually even read the rules and was just cut-n-pasting someones trolling.

.

Quote from: Necrozius;833529Something that I've done to slightly mitigate the constant lobbing of arcane destruction is to explain what happens to the surrounding environment (on misses and area of effect spells). My players nearly burnt down their own home base, destroyed valuable artifacts and caused a cave-in.

Quote from: Doom;833526PLUS you also get reaction spells (eg, Shield).

And as far as extra spells, you get more spells now than you used to. For example, a level 5 mage used to have the ability to cast 1 3rd level spell a day, now it's 2 (not counting special abilities),

Quote from: Doom;833527And the fact remains, the "CR 3" level 5 wizard, no special abilities, is a near certain TPK for a party below level 5. There's also some really goofy stuff you can do with druids (mephit massive explosion damage, for example).

Quote from: Opaopajr;833553Counterspell is always über. It is literally the definition of über -- beyond the most obvious, Wish. You always prep Counterspell. You always reserve excess, and preferably higher, slots for Counterspell. It is the permission slip spell. Look at MtG, the lesson of Counterspell is etched in stone for an entire generation.

Shield is extremely solid, as it lasts all the way until the start of your next turn. Fantastic 1st lvl spell to get stuff off and get away.

Quote from: Opaopajr;833553Sleep is solid, but people forget that it's indiscriminate targeting of lowest HP. Target wrong and your 20' radius hits your allies. Also, it just takes an action to shake awake someone. And further still, there's no such thing as coup de grace in this game. Sure, you get Advantage and Critical to hit a prone, unconscious opponent from 5' away, but you better go through all their HP. I think a lot of people have been playing this one wrong at tables -- 5e has very different assumptions about Sleep (note the lack of the bolded rule above).

Quote from: Necrozius;833529My players nearly burnt down their own home base, destroyed valuable artifacts and caused a cave-in. ......
To be clear, not punishing, just making things interesting.

Quote from: zarathustra;833534I gave 5e a good long go as a player.

I do not like it. Combat, while swingy, is interminable with a group of 6 players. By the time everyone gets done with bonus actions, reactions, calculating if this square can/can not do XYZ, blah blah I am bored stiff and is it my turn soon, 15 mins later?

Way too much magic for mine. How is a spellcaster never running out of spells more exciting than harnessing your dwindling supply then turning to missiles (roughly equally effective) as a last resort?

Every time I want to do, see or hear something I seem to be required to make a check. I realise this may be campaign dependent but this is two wholly seperate campaigns with only one crossover player (me). By virtue of spelling their need and interaction out so exactly, it makes rolling the dice over rping the assumed path it seems to me.

Quote from: Necrozius;833529Something that I've done to slightly mitigate the constant lobbing of arcane destruction is to explain what happens to the surrounding environment (on misses and area of effect spells). My players nearly burnt down their own home base, destroyed valuable artifacts and caused a cave-in.

Also, the Warlock's free-wheeling use of Thaumaturgy to intimidate superstitious folks with "divine punishment" has gotten him unwanted attention: a new, troublesome and interfering cult forming around him and investigators from the local temples gauging how much of threat he is (or if he's a heretic).

Just because the spell targets a living creature it doesn't mean that everything else around them is unaffected.

To be clear, not punishing, just making things interesting.

Quote from: Sommerjon;833564Wonder what punishing would look like.
.

Quote from: Necrozius;833573Oh I'm sure that I'll get quoted on grognards.txt for being an evil, sadistic and overly-pedantic GM. But my reasoning is the whole fail-forward concept. Sure, you can miss with your spells, but something still happens if the spell's effects are interesting.

Quote from: Necrozius;833573Fireball in an enclosed, wooden room full of dusty old tapestries? What the fuck would one THINK would happen?

Quote from: Necrozius;833573EDIT: I suppose that a progressive, super nice, cooperative GM would have changed the room's (randomly determined) details as they considered the party's daily choice of spells. I don't always have the time or energy to keep track of all those variables in the heat of the moment.

Quote from: Sommerjon;833577

Quote from: Necrozius;833573Sure, you can miss with your spells, but something still happens if the spell's effects are interesting.

You allow the players to do something extra "if the spell's effects are interesting"?

Quote from: Sommerjon;833577

Quote from: Necrozius;833573Fireball in an enclosed, wooden room full of dusty old tapestries? What the fuck would one THINK would happen?

Truthfully?  Not a whole helluvalot.
If you are wanting some real world logic with that description.  Not enough oxygen to ignite the room.  The fireball doesn't last long enough to ignite the room/contents.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;833590How do you guys represent the flavorful real world effect of the spells? Like a spell that shoots fire, do you make it light things it hits on fire even if it doesn't say it specifically in the rules?

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;833594Well there's some spells that are ambiguous. I can't remember the name, but it was a cleric spell that brings down a bolt of fire from above, or something.

But the player used it inside; 5E had nothing to say about this, so I was stuck wondering if it would even work inside a building (is it coming from the sky?) or if it just appeared directly above the target, or what. That kind of thing.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;833594Well there's some spells that are ambiguous. I can't remember the name, but it was a cleric spell that brings down a bolt of fire from above, or something.

But the player used it inside; 5E had nothing to say about this, so I was stuck wondering if it would even work inside a building (is it coming from the sky?) or if it just appeared directly above the target, or what. That kind of thing.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;833580Because a fireball can kill a man five times over, with fire, but not burn a tapestry? If anything is suffering from a lack of oxygen in the room, it's the "real world logic" of your response.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;833622Actually...  It's the explosive force. A fireball is only half 'fire' the other half explodes with enough kinetic energy to rip apart a small hut.

You want a pure fire attack, get Flaming Sphere.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;833580It's quite the stretch to get from "something still happens" to "allow the players to do something extra." Be sure to limber up first.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;833580Because a fireball can kill a man five times over, with fire, but not burn a tapestry? If anything is suffering from a lack of oxygen in the room, it's the "real world logic" of your response.

Quote from: Sommerjon;833627Only a Dm can have interesting things happen?
How lovely. :rolleyes:

Quote from: Sommerjon;833627Nearly everything will burn given enough time and heat.
The duration of the spell is instant.  What will burn with such little time?  Very very fucking little.  A Tapestry sure the shit ain't one of them.  Neither is wood.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;833625That's not what the spell says, but if that's how you want it to be in your game, go for it.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;833630Fireball

A bright streak flashes from your pointing finger to a point you choose within range and the blossoms with a low roar into an EXPLOSION of flame.  Each creature within a 20 foot sphere centered on that point must make a Dexterity saving throw.  

QuoteA target takes 8d6 fire damage on a failed save, or half as much on a successful save.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;833630Are willing to sit there and tell me that the explosive force does nothing to people?  Not a single thing?  It's just a pretty light show?

Quote from: Christopher Brady;833630HOWEVER, the last line DOES say it sets things on fire, despite the speed and improbability of it.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;833633Don't forget what you cut off in the spell description.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;833633Notice how it doesn't say fire *and* explosion/thunder damage.   Again, work it that way if you like, but it ain't there by itself.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;833633The damaging aspect of a fireball could very well be more on the fire side than the  "exlosion" side.   Explosions can actually be quite tame while still being considered explosions.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;833633No, it says it sets flammable objects on fire, period.  The weasel words were yours.

Quote from: S'mon;833647Kind of weird reading an argument where somebody doesn't know how the fireball spell works (heat, sets things on fire, no overpressure) - it's been that way since 1974!

Quote from: Christopher Brady;833649Actually, they changed in 3.x explaining that half the damage was fire and the other half was explosive.  So no, it's not been that way since '74.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;833628

Quote from: Sommerjon;833627

Quote from: Natty Bodak;833580

Quote from: Sommerjon;833577

Quote from: Necrozius;833573Sure, you can miss with your spells, but something still happens if the spell's effects are interesting.

You allow the players to do something extra "if the spell's effects are interesting"?

It's quite the stretch to get from "something still happens" to "allow the players to do something extra." Be sure to limber up first.

Only a Dm can have interesting things happen?
How lovely. :rolleyes:

Interesting things can happen from intended or unintended consequences of actions.  But even trolls with poor reading comprehension should get that.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;833628I'll fix your post here.  Everything will burn given enough heat, period. Time is just a luxury for low temperatures.  What's more, items will often be scorched before they ignite, still having damage done to them.

Not only do you get the real world case wrong, but you also get the game case wrong, where the spell explicitly states that flammable objects will catch fire as a result of the spell. So, yeah, a tapestry sure as shit *is* one of them.

Keep trolling, though.  One day you might catch one that can't quite get away from you.

Quote from: Opaopajr;833517Healing Word
Casting Time: 1 bonus action

Quote from: Natty Bodak;833546But, back to the my point of contention. With a 5th level wizard fighting a 4th level party (greater numbers count in 5e), how is the wizard going to defend against the party rogue *and* the party caster?  Shield and counterspell are both reactions, of which you only get one a turn, so the wizard has to make a choice.  Does he shield against the barbarian that just hit him, and leave himself open to the sleep/command/silence?  This decision point/trap is what  

QuoteSeveral folks have posted how their experience is quite different. Either your players aren't as experienced as you think they are, or the enemy wizard is crafting an ambush for the party, or "near certain TPK" is pretty steep hyperbole.

QuoteWhat goofy druid/mephit stuff are you talking about, by the way?

Quote from: Omega;833654Thank you! That was what kept missing!

Still, one extra spell a round is not all that usefull when it limits you to cantrips as your main action. And is still a finite resource. So either way it is still playing pretty good over all and not overpowered.

Quote from: Doom;833655Seriously, I trashed a party of 8 characters with a level 5 wizard (granted, he had some zombies), then did it again (he had one mechanical golem, mostly as a distraction). Pick up a calculator and see, maybe?

Quote from: Sommerjon;833653So which is it?
A stretch to get from "something still happens" to "allow the players to do something extra"?
or
Interesting things can happen from intended or unintended consequences of actions?

Quote from: Sommerjon;833653Funny,  I say something and you just have to prove me wrong.

Quote from: Sommerjon;833653You're to dumb to realize when you are being set up.
Everything will not burn given enough heat.  Some compounds don't burn.  Like water.
But you go on with your bad self.

Quote from: Doom;833655Heh. Again, 12d6 drops most every level 4 character, and kills many of them. Yes, a party with a wizard will have counterspell. If no wizard then this is irrelevant theorycrafting, or are you proposing that all adventuring parties have wizard? I grant every wizard will take counterspell as soon as possible, because it's just that awesome (note that if the evil wizard can cast at an angle where counterspell won't work because of line of sight, it's irrelevant anyway).

Quote from: Doom;833655Shield gives AC 19, even if all players focus fire, not going to drop him in 1 round.

Quote from: Doom;833655Are you sure all parties have a wizard, barbarian AND rogue? The only assumption I'm making is all characters have hit points. Can you at least grant my assumptions are more reasonable than yours?

Quote from: Doom;833655Yes, maybe the party might get lucky with some other spell, but are you sure those spells are 100% effective I rather think you do, but mathematically a wizard has a good chance of making a saving throw.

Quote from: Doom;833655Seriously, I trashed a party of 8 characters with a level 5 wizard (granted, he had some zombies), then did it again (he had one mechanical golem, mostly as a distraction). Pick up a calculator and see, maybe?

Quote from: Doom;833655Eh, use a calculator. Or not. Your choice. Several folks have posted how theoretically their possible experience may be quite different, but I'm posting from actual game play experience with an actual enemy wizard trashing an actual party in an actual dungeon.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;833408High AC isn't anything near 2 round immortality. I have been in this exact situation (a party of 5th level meeting an enemy 5th level wizard) as a player twice.  Actually, the first time the party was a mix of 4th and 5th level characters.

Here are the things that can, and actually did, prevent the wizard from casting fireball.

• Command (1st level Cleric spell)
• Silence (2nd level Cleric spell)
• Counterspell (3rd level Wizard spell)
• Sleep (1st level Wizard spell, cast as a second level spell in my particular case)
• A 5th level Rogue with Assasinate

I'm not saying things can't go badly when faced with a fireball tossing wizard, but I don't think it's as bad as it seems to you.

Quote from: Doom;833655Seriously, there's no general way to stop a wizard from casting spells, and, as I've pointed out before, combining that with many spells, multiple spells a round, and high damage output, is problematic.

Quote from: Doom;833655It'll have to wait until I get home, since I reckon I'll have to quote the pages from the rulebook.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;833709Maybe I'm GMing the NPCs wrong, but every spellcaster the party has come across in my games gets killed in like one or two turns tops. Usually so quickly that the players remark on how unexpectedly easy it was.

Quote from: Natty BodakSpeaking of picking up a calculator, what are the numbers on a AC 19 5th wizard who has already cast Shield getting hit with a second level Sleep spell? Pretty grim.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;833709Maybe I'm GMing the NPCs wrong, but every spellcaster the party has come across in my games gets killed in like one or two turns tops. Usually so quickly that the players remark on how unexpectedly easy it was.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;833718Or one of those all-powerful fireballs that the 5th level party likely has :). What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;833697If I gave you the impression that I didn't think two back to back fireballs could drop a 4th level party, that was definitely not my intention. I do not disagree with that at all. My contention is/was that the wizard is nowhere near assured to get both fireballs off.  

QuoteDo you ask this question because of Counterspell? If so, wouldn't it be better to ask if I'm proposing that every party will have at least a wizard, warlock, or sorcerer? Because they all have access to Counterspell. I have not played with a party that hasn't had one of those three classes so far.

QuoteIf anything in this discussion seems like theorycrafyting to me, it's the bolded parenthetical statement above. That's very situational,

QuoteSpeaking of picking up a calculator, what are the numbers on a AC 19 5th wizard who has already cast Shield getting hit with a second level Sleep spell? Pretty grim.

QuoteI don't understand how you can make the bolded claim when we've talked so much about Counterspell, which is *the* general way to stop a wizard from casting spells and is available to at least three of the arcane classes. But if we're not going to agree on that, I guess I'll drop it.

QuoteI've agreed from the beginning on the rest of it, though.  It was only the "you can't stop a wizard from casting" part I had a beef with.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;833709Maybe I'm GMing the NPCs wrong, but every spellcaster the party has come across in my games gets killed in like one or two turns tops. Usually so quickly that the players remark on how unexpectedly easy it was.

Quote from: Opaopajr;833755I agree, TSR had it right when any hit that connects before casting "counterspells" the spellcaster. WotC has it wrong, still.

Quote from: Doom;833737Agreed, all parties would have at least one of those, and every wizard will take counterspell at first opportunity, since it's perfectly effective against level 3 or lower spells. Why bother having nonmagical characters, though, since they're basically helpless against magic, which works so reliably?

Quote from: Opaopajr;833763About breaking Concentration: That's not a Counterspell. That's a Dispel. There's a very big difference, as any MtG player would tell you after being aghast at the comparison.

I understand the desire to praise 5e for progress, and the introduction of a 'martial dispel' is one of them. It also prevents some spell stacking, too. But it is nowhere near the same as a 'martial counterspell'.

Sorry, your comparison does not work. XOXO, don't take it personal, still besties forever, kthxbai!
:p

Quote from: Opaopajr;833767Christopher Brady, you obviously must have forgotten your TSR past with that post. Wish and Teleport were notoriously unreliable pre-WotC. Teleport — until Teleport Without Error, a significantly higher lvl spell — was a wonderful way to die unintentionally back in the day. As were Fireball, Lightning Bolt, and on and on. So you're theory diagnostic falls apart upon contact.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;833778Did you even read my post completely?  I pointed that some spells, LIKE WISH AND TELEPORT, could go wrong.  But then again, the spells still HAPPENED.  They still went off, no chance of failure except when influenced from the outside, like being hit, in the older editions.  So no, my statement stands, D&D magic ALWAYS works, no chance of failure upon casting it, because the magic still happens.

Quote from: Omega;833772We disagree on what constitutes interrupting a spell here.[...]

But a concentration spell interrupted is just as down as one one that was never cast at all.

Fireball and a few other artillery level spells really should have a cast time of at least two or so rounds so there is a chance to directly break it.

Quote from: Opaopajr;833785I'd dump 5e's initiative system and just go back to 2e's spread of 3 options. It's just better in actual play. Especially combined with 'martial counterspell', where a hit wrecks the spell and loses the spell slot.

Quote from: Doom;8333372) Absolutely no way to stop spellcasting.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;833408Here are the things that can, and actually did, prevent the wizard from casting fireball.

• Command (1st level Cleric spell)
• Silence (2nd level Cleric spell)
• Counterspell (3rd level Wizard spell)
• Sleep (1st level Wizard spell, cast as a second level spell in my particular case)
• A 5th level Rogue with Assassinate

Quote from: Doom;833737Well, other than counterspell, there is...? Should the whole game revolve around this one spell? Again, I'm not sure this is a complete refutation of my claim about spellcasters being overpowering.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;833829See that list above?  The list with more things than Counterspell on it?

QuoteThis is all a refutation of "absolutely no way to stop spellcasting."

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;833869How do you know how many spell slots an enemy wizard has anyway when your'e GMing? I wasn't sure how to run them.

Quote from: Doom;833858I'm sorry, but can you show me where in your PHB "Command" is a reaction? Mine doesn't seem to indicate that.

I'm sorry, but can you show me where in your PHB "Sleep" is a reaction?

Are you house-ruling these spells as reactions? Do you notice nobody else thinks you're right?

I'm sorry, but can you show me where in your PHB "Silence" is a reaction? A 20' radius is almost meaningless, or are you also houseruling that most characters can't casually move 20' in a move? You can't even cast it on a coin anymore.

It really looks like you've houseruled your game to allow multiple ways to stop spellcasting (and by " stop spellcasting" I mean "stopping spells as they are being cast", since, yeah, if you kill the wizard, that does indeed stop his casting any further spells...or do you houserule that this would negate all effects of previous spells?).

And, of course, the whole "the reason why Doom is wrong about spellcasting being overpowerful is because spellcasting is overpowerful" argument really is problematic.

Assassinate? Heck, why don't you say all melee attacks prevent spellcasting, since, hey, death does work.




No, it's pure idiocy (beyond Counterspell). You may as well say "but I can cast Wish to retroactively have the wizard be miscarried, and thus never be born, and that would counter the wizard's spellcasting."

QuoteYou misunderstand.  What I meant by "Absolutely no way to stop spellcasting" was "Absolutely no way to interrupt spellcasting", not "Absolutely no way to prevent spellcasting."

Quote from: Natty Bodak;833896But if you think players are just going to sit there clustered up so you can fireball them twice, that does kind of smack of white room thinking about how effective fireball is without taking into account the practicalities of an actual location, or any of that actual play stuff that comes up in, you know, actual play.  

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;833902Does grappling do anything to somatic casting?

What about disarming material foci or components?

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;833902Fireball is really a tough call in a lot of average rooms and hallways. In my experience (admittedly from prior editions) even the most pyromaniacal players don't usually get to deploy it willy nilly. NPCs can face similar issues.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;833902Related thoughts:
- Where are this wizard's allies? How do they stay out of the fireball while still being useful? If the wizard is fighting alone, what's the plan when the party converges on him or spreads around him, making most AOE highly questionable?
- As soon as the wizard is identified some chunky melee player is going to park themselves right next to him, and since there are no opportunity attacks for circling around someone in 5e, he'll likely make sure he's behind the wizard and away from his party. What does the wizard do, move to a worse position? Take the opportunity attack?
- If we're generating a wizard based off of player class and MM assumptions, don't these fuckers have, like, 23 measly hit points at CR 3? Sure he might be burning spell slots on limited AC tricks, but four to five standard 5th level PCs can certainly deal that much damage to a single target in a round. Even a party of non-casters. Have you seen how much a rogue or barbarian can dish out?
- Dispel and counterspell are 3rd level, right? If the enemy wizard is casting those in self defense, he ain't casting double fireballs.
- Doom, where did you get that 12d6 number from earlier? Fireball is 8d6, and double fireball is 16d6.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;833801What was 2E's like?

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;833902Does grappling do anything to somatic casting?

What about disarming material foci or components?

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;833902Fireball is really a tough call in a lot of average rooms and hallways. In my experience (admittedly from prior editions) even the most pyromaniacal players don't usually get to deploy it willy nilly. NPCs can face similar issues.

Quote from: Haffrung;833838I thought casting Silence on a coin and tossing it into the room was standard-operating-practice for dealing with enemy spellcasters?

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;833869How do you know how many spell slots an enemy wizard has anyway when your'e GMing? I wasn't sure how to run them.

QuoteSpellcasting. The mage is a 9th-level spellcaster. Its
spellcasting ability is Intelligence (spell save DC 14, +6 to
hit with spell attacks). The mage has the following wizard
spells prepared:
Cantrips (at will): fire bolt, light, mage hand, prestidigitation
1st level (4 slots): detect magic, mage armor, magic
missile, shield
2nd level (3 slots): misty step, suggestion
3rd level (3 slots): counterspell, fireball, fly
4th level (3 slots): greater invisibility, ice storm
5th level (1 slot): cone of cold

Quote from: Natty Bodak;833907Grappling really only reduces the target's movement to zero according to a strict reading of the rules.  This along with Silence would put the wizard in a bind unless he's really been working out.

I haven't seen anything on disarming (as a mechanic), but removing their focus and components would do the trick.  This edition is pretty soft on components in that it allows a focus or "bag of things" as a replacement for the actual material components, but it's still a requirement..

Quote from: Opaopajr;833921Disarming material foci or components is doable, but it is under either a) Battle Master maneuver only, or b) Improvise an Action as per the tan box at the end of Actions in Combat section. "A" only is a very strict interpretation of the rules, not allowing others to attempt. "B" is a looser interpretation of the rules, but not really giving GM guidance on how do to so.

Quote from: Omega;833933Grappling Master feat turns the grapple into a restrained status.

Disarming is in the DMG page 271. Works to knock items held. Not just weapons. So spell focuses can be popped. A to hit attack with a weapon vs the targets STR (athletics) or DEX (acrobatics) check. No damage if it fails, and the attacker is at disadvantage if the item is being held 2-handed.

Quote from: Opaopajr;8339162e's Initiative core system was Group Initiative, Group Modifier, roll each round. So each group would roll a d10, and the group would be assessed if it qualified for a group modifier (usually not applicable). Very fast, one side go, then other side go. And it screwed with gamesmanship royally, because there was no guarantee the dice would favor you next round.

The first optional system was Group Initiative, Individual Modifier, roll each round. Same d10 is used for each group, so rolling and recording takes negligible time. Still very fast, though it shuffled some of the group's members in between depending on their attack methods. Was better for medium-sized battles. It also carried the fog of war.

The second optional system was Individual Initiative Individual Modifier, roll each round. Still d10, but would take more time. However the shuffling was much greater, and then you could do more finesse things, in exchange for a longer combat time. Still fog of war, but better for the small combats. This one is more reminiscent of 3e, except still d10, not d20, and no DEX mod.

Individual Modifier is where you get weapon speeds and spell casting times mattering.

Also, outlier DEX values only mattered for Surprise Checks, no bearing on initiative as per PHB, (suck that, god stat!).

That's a lot of words, but in practice it is waaaay easier. And compared to WotC iterations, far less game-able. Fog of war is a beautiful thing in play.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;833902Fireball is really a tough call in a lot of average rooms and hallways. In my experience (admittedly from prior editions) even the most pyromaniacal players don't usually get to deploy it willy nilly. NPCs can face similar issues.

QuoteRelated thoughts:
- Where are this wizard's allies? How do they stay out of the fireball while still being useful? If the wizard is fighting alone, what's the plan when the party converges on him or spreads around him, making most AOE highly questionable?

Quote- As soon as the wizard is identified some chunky melee player is going to park themselves right next to him, and since there are no opportunity attacks for circling around someone in 5e, he'll likely make sure he's behind the wizard and away from his party. What does the wizard do, move to a worse position? Take the opportunity attack?

Quote- If we're generating a wizard based off of player class and MM assumptions, don't these fuckers have, like, 23 measly hit points at CR 3? Sure he might be burning spell slots on limited AC tricks, but four to five standard 5th level PCs can certainly deal that much damage to a single target in a round. Even a party of non-casters. Have you seen how much a rogue or barbarian can dish out?

Quote- Dispel and counterspell are 3rd level, right? If the enemy wizard is casting those in self defense, he ain't casting double fireballs.

Quote- Doom, where did you get that 12d6 number from earlier? Fireball is 8d6, and double fireball is 16d6.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;833934You know, I haven't seen any one play Battle Master yet, and I swear I must have read Disarming Attack ten times, and forgotten it ten times.  Thanks for the reminder about it.

I think I kept discounting it because in my head I thought "well, they'll just pick it back up with their free environment interaction."  But the disarmer could obviously just do the same after they disarm it.  Just goes to show you the danger of writing something off without giving it a go.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;833948Wait, could you explain how group initiative / group modifier works? So you roll a d10, and it applies to the entire party? So if I rolled a 6, that's it for all the PCs. But then what's the group modifier if there's no DEX used?

Also what about the monster's side? Does every single monster all go on the same initiative? Or do they roll separately per kind of monster? (Aka, goblins, then hobgoblins, then owl bears, etc)

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;833963This is something I was wondering. Suppose that you get disarmed and the weapon falls between you and an enemy.

Can you just use your free action to pick it up, or do you have to contest the other creature for it somehow? It doesn't make sense that you'd be able to just drop your guard and pick something up when someone's right in your face. It would be a free action if nothing else was going on, but in the middle of life and death combat......

Quote from: Opaopajr;833966You can just walk up and pick it up with your free action. The only threat is being within reach and trying to leave it may trigger an Opportunity Attack. Otherwise, there is no penalty, contest, etc.

Remember, everyone's initiative is broken up individually, and ties are deliberately broken (there's a whole PHB follow-up paragraph on suggestions how). And every round is only 6 seconds, so every facet of one's turn is micro-managed into non-overlapping parts unless otherwise stated. Everyone moves discretely, so there's no collisions or unintentional contests.

Quote from: Opaopajr;833965Multi-faction Large-sized Battle
i.e. 2: 4x PCs (team hero) v. 1x Bugbear 3x Hobgoblins & 8x Goblins (team horde) v. 15x Zombies (team moan). Team Horde overbore team Hero and was holding them, but Team Moan suddenly appeared in the mid-distance, charging, and is a mutual threat. Team Moan declares Charge getting (-2 init) mod, Team Horde declares to Receive Charge getting (-2 init) mod, and Team Hero declares stuff but is held and first struggling out getting (+3 init) mod.

Rd 1, all 3 groups roll 1d10 each. Team Hero rolls 2 (+3) =5, Team Horde rolls 7 (-2) =5, and Team Moan 6 (-2) =4.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;833967That just seems so immersion breaking to me.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;833968What's this Charge and Receive setting? It just came out of nowhere in your explanation. So that's how they get a modifier?

Quote from: Doom;833956Grappling isn't quite as effective as one hopes; it won't stop spellcasting, and you can use Dex to escape a grapple (and it's not like the wizard will be putting alot of points into strength). Yeah, keeps the wizard from moving, but you give up an attack for damage to do it. That's a problem, since while you grab the wizard, he's killing your teammates because he can still cast freakin' spells.

Quote from: Weru;833975[...] Would being grappled limit casters solely to spells that are V, and stop any with the M and S requirements? [...]

Quote from: Doom;833956Actually, a pyromaniacal player will just take spell-shaping and not have to worry about hitting friends with fireballs...

Quote from: Doom;833956it's pretty brutal, and doesn't require retarded houseruling of "players can automatically run 40' in the instant between fireball being cast and it actually going off", which I think is a bit much.

Quote from: Doom;833956I grant that if players run in all directions, fireballing the whole party after the first round is unlikely, but now we have the "how do they all focus fire and remain in line of sight" issue.

Quote from: Doom;833956It's no biggie, I concede there are all sorts of marginal edge cases every bit as reliable as retroactively wishing for a miscarriage...

Quote from: Doom;833956but I encourage the curious player to simply whip out some of the dungeon maps for published 5e adventures and see that, yeah, most likely players will all be in 40' radius of each other...

Quote from: Doom;833956and won't be able to conveniently move out of that radius AND also all be relevant to the fight.

Quote from: Doom;833956Again, I was just pointing out how ridiculously deadly the CR 3 fight is...

Quote from: Doom;833956... where outside of marginal cases there's a real chance of a TPK.

Quote from: Doom;833956Toss in some allies, and it gets much more deadly...

Quote from: Doom;833956The wizard could also just stand in a 5' corridor, or otherwise put himself in a position where getting attacked on all sides is impossible.

Quote from: Doom;833956(but, again, it's best just to play the wizard stupidly, and then the encounter would be around CR 3).

Quote from: Doom;833956Of course, two such wizards is CR 4, and if you think that's a fair fight against four level 4 PCs...

Quote from: Doom;833956The wizard could just as easily circle around the chunky melee player, right?

Quote from: Doom;833956Well, assuming you don't play the wizard stupidly...and, again, with an AC of 19, the wizard could certainly afford to take an opportunity attack if necessary; it's only a 2 round fight anyway.

Quote from: Doom;833956Absolutely, if the players get lucky, they can take out the 23 hp, AC 19 mage in one round...

Quote from: Doom;833956... but otherwise, there will probably only be one fatality at most...

Quote from: Doom;833956and the party will win, but need a long rest afterwards. I know, CR has never worked well, but that's pretty wacky that it's falling down at "3"

Quote from: Doom;833956If he gets the fireball off first, the PC wizardly types will probably go down (the extra damage on the fireball is also problematic here). Even if they just barely survive, they'll get to choose between "hmm, should I try a 50% chance spell, or flee?".

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;833995Yes, that is extremely retarded. Have you encountered someone giving their players stuff on silver platters like that?

QuoteRanged attacks, ranged single target spells, the toughest characters will be right next to the puny NPC mage so he won't fireball himself (no NPC spell-shaping), etc.

QuoteIf you rule the PCs in the mage's face grant him cover from PC ranged attacks, then they also grant their allies cover from the mage (+2 on Dex saves).

QuoteI am thinking of maps like that, and I conclude from experience the NPC mage will more often than not be within 40' of most of them, so he has to make choices. Fireball himself? Place the fireball in sub-optimal areas so as to exclude himself but only hit two PCs?

QuoteThat's one option for some of the PCs, but really they just have to move so as to put the NPC mage and/or his allies within the fireball radius to stop him.

QuoteHave you looked at the 5e intellect devourer with its CR 2? There's a long thread about it on TBP or ENworld, forget which. This edition is consciously dangerous again.

QuoteI'll grant you that it's dangerous, especially for inexperienced players, but I don't think those "marginal cases" are anywhere near as marginal as your hyperbole and "wish for miscarriage" comparisons suggest.

QuoteSince the players appear to be quite stupid in your examples this is only fair.

QuoteAgain, how big and straight are these rooms and hallways of yours that he has so much room to maneuver and place perfect fireballs that hit all four PCs often enough that it doesn't count as "marginal cases"?

QuoteI mean, here's a sample 5e dungeon map. There's cover and corners and doorways and shit (remember, +2 to dex saves). I'm  just not seeing your scenario play out so perfectly for the mage often enough for it to count as more than a "marginal case" by your definition.

QuoteThat said, I notice that in your examples the PCs don't ever seem to have buffs, special abilities, healing spells and shield spells of their own.

QuoteWell since we're bringing luck into the equation, the NPC mage can get unlucky and roll terrible initiative (two rounds of PC actions before the second fireball), or roll terrible fireball damage, or have most of the PCs succeed both their saves, or find himself in a really shitty room for area effects, or get snuck up on by the rogue, or fail his save against a crippling spell (no help from mage armor or shield) or battlemaster maneuver, or get cornered and Silenced, etc.

Quote from: Doom;834012Weird. In my games we use a grid so the mage really isn't going to fireball himself under any reasonable circumstance.

Quote from: Doom;834012The mage doesn't have to be within 40' of the players, fireball has a range of 150'. You must be playing on pretty huge maps.

Quote from: Doom;834012Looking through Rise of Tiamat, the first dungeon (ice dragon lair) doesn't have a single room that isn't completely covered by Fireball...

Quote from: Doom;834012Or they could just retroactively Wish for a miscarriage...

Quote from: Doom;834012Again, we're getting so hung up at looking at edge cases in a specific example that the big picture of lots of spells, multiple spells a round, (nearly) uninterruptable spellcasting, and extra damage is the thing being discussed.

Quote from: Doom;834012Stupid enough to have hit points, stupid enough to go into dungeons with walls.

Quote from: Doom;834012Well, I cited an actual published adventure. Can you cite one where more than half the rooms grant the ability for the party to not sit within a 20' radius sphere?

Quote from: Doom;834012Even with this houserule...

Quote from: Doom;834012... you're still not going to make both saves with any level of reliability.

Quote from: Doom;834012Absolutely, all sorts of stuff can go wrong, we're only talking a 30% chance of a TPK here, tops, for an "easy" encounter. Are you positive that's the same as if the party goes up against a single CR 3 minotaur?

Quote from: Doom;834012Let's try it this way. So let's forget about this one specific example that I concede isn't very good if players don't have hit points or dungeons don't have walls.

Quote from: Doom;834012Which of these do you disagree with:

1) spellcasters can objectively cast more spells, at any given level, between long rests than in previous editions?

2) spellcasters can objectively cast more spells a full round, more easily than previous editions?

3) spells objectively do more expected damage per level, than previous editions?

4) spells are objectively harder to interrupt in previous editions?

Those are lots of improvements on spellcasting, which was already pretty dominating in, say 3.5.

Quote from: Greg Benage;834018I don't mind the swinginess -- in practice, it means that PCs had better come prepared and gain a tactical advantage if they want to mitigate the risk of fights against opponents with big AoEs. A DM certainly could run fireball ambushes that are essentially traps that can't be detected or disarmed, but I personally don't see the fun in that. And on the other hand, I understand people who prefer mechanics that slow things down, allow actions (including spellcasting) to be interrupted, etc.

ETA: Menacing attack wouldn't stop the spell. Not sure what I was thinking.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;834028But again, where are these mages casting from!? In a network of 40X40 rooms and hallways, how did we end up in a situation where all the PC were sitting clustered together, far away from a mage who has no chance of hitting himself with his own fireball? Even if the PCs are caught with their pants down and ALL roll below the mage's initiative in such a manner, how does that ideal fireball situation stay that way for two rounds!?

PCs move, PCs cast spells and use healing abilities, PCs make devastating melee attacks, PCs stand on either side of the mage and make movement for someone trying to position 40ft explosions over all these targets very, very difficult

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;834028We must be running dungeons differently. In my games players generally "catch" NPCs in specific rooms or chambers (rarely that much bigger than fireballs, and while this can sometimes grant home turf advantage, if I'm being realistic about the size and layouts of rooms this rarely makes for perfect fireball turf. If the complex has been 'alerted' and the players are being actively hunted then they also play accordingly, so if they get caught with their pants down then that's just the game.

You seem to have forewarned mages skulking throughout the dungeon and lining up perfect hit-entire-party shots from 150 feet away.

Quote from: Sommerjon;834038Always the problem when these issues pop up.
Encounters are not always in a dungeon*.

My group(currently 6[4th level]) going through PotA, had a night encounter against the Fire Cult[1 priest CR3(5th lvl caster fire mage) and 6 warriors(CR1/8)] along the road.  This is a medium encounter for them.
Results: 2 dead, 3 unconscious, 1 running away(because Tiefling)
That was from only 1 fireball and 2 Scorching Rays.


*I've never been a huge fan of dungeons.  I find most of them to be rather silly.

Quote from: Sommerjon;834038My group(currently 6[4th level]) going through PotA, had a night encounter against the Fire Cult[1 priest CR3(5th lvl caster fire mage) and 6 warriors(CR1/8)] along the road.  This is a medium encounter for them.
Results: 2 dead, 3 unconscious, 1 running away(because Tiefling)
That was from only 1 fireball and 2 Scorching Rays.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;834033You had me running back to my PHB with the Menacing Strike comment thinking "Yet another thing I missed with the Battle Master!"

Quote from: Sommerjon;834038Always the problem when these issues pop up.
Encounters are not always in a dungeon*.

My group(currently 6[4th level]) going through PotA, had a night encounter against the Fire Cult[1 priest CR3(5th lvl caster fire mage) and 6 warriors(CR1/8)] along the road.  This is a medium encounter for them.
Results: 2 dead, 3 unconscious, 1 running away(because Tiefling)
That was from only 1 fireball and 2 Scorching Rays.

Quote*I've never been a huge fan of dungeons.  I find most of them to be rather silly.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;833967That just seems so immersion breaking to me.

Quote from: Weru;833975I only just got my 5e books, and only finished reading the PHB yesterday, so forgive me if these questions are way off point, but . .

Would being grappled limit casters solely to spells that are V, and stop any with the M and S requirements?

Also, how much of a problem is being disadvantaged to a caster?

Quote from: Doom;834012That's an interesting house rule, I never thought about giving players "cover" from a fireball effect in general (though I did give characters advantage when they were standing in water).

Quote from: Doom;834012Let's try it this way. So let's forget about this one specific example that I concede isn't very good if players don't have hit points or dungeons don't have walls.

Which of these do you disagree with:

1) spellcasters can objectively cast more spells, at any given level, between long rests than in previous editions?

2) spellcasters can objectively cast more spells a full round, more easily than previous editions?

3) spells objectively do more expected damage per level, than previous editions?

4) spells are objectively harder to interrupt in previous editions?

Those are lots of improvements on spellcasting, which was already pretty dominating in, say 3.5.

Quote from: Doom;834012Which of these do you disagree with:

1) spellcasters can objectively cast more spells, at any given level, between long rests than in previous editions?

2) spellcasters can objectively cast more spells a full round, more easily than previous editions?

3) spells objectively do more expected damage per level, than previous editions?

4) spells are objectively harder to interrupt in previous editions?

Those are lots of improvements on spellcasting, which was already pretty dominating in, say 3.5.

Quote from: Doom;834056Don't you know as soon as you see a humanoid, you're supposed to scatter in all directions because it might be a spellcaster? :p

Quote from: Doom;834056I think next time I put together a Dwarven Forge dungeon, I'll see if I can make every room and hallway so that the party can always set up in such a way that no two characters can be hit with a fireball.

Quote from: Doom;834056Confusion aside, spellcasters are just a bit overpowered...

Quote from: Doom;834056Even if it's not a TPK, it doesn't mean you are a suckass player (like folks around here believe)

Quote from: Opaopajr;833972Meh, I got used to it from 6 sec rounds from GURPS and 3e. But yeah, it can seem strange. Personally hated 3e AoO locking everyone together, with mages dancing around the edges, though.



That's from the small table of allowed Group Modifiers. There's only like 10 possible modifiers. I didn't post the table because I didn't think it critical. And a majority of the group needs to qualify before your group can get it. So if not all of Team Horde received charged, they would not get that group modifier. (And technically I didn't have to give Team Moan its charge modifier, but since they all did the same I gave it to them.)

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;834081Do the modifiers apply to teams or individuals? Right now it sounds like all the players would get the same initiative, so do they all go at once? How do you handle that? Does that mean the specific order doesn't matter and you can just make it whatever, between the players?

I GM a table of 8 players and initiative takes forever. I've been looking at other ways to run it.

Maybe seating them in order of highest DEX to lowest and just going by that in default order instead of rolling every time. Then I only have to roll for the monsters.

Quote from: Omega;8340741: Definitly no. Casters are down signifigantly from AD&D levels. An AD&D MU had 37 spells at level 20 and a total of 58 at the top end. A 5 e Wizard has 21. Cantrips dont count.

Quote from: Omega;834074

Quote from: Doom;8340121) spellcasters can objectively cast more spells, at any given level, between long rests than in previous editions?

1: Definitly no. Casters are down signifigantly from AD&D levels. An AD&D MU had 37 spells at level 20 and a total of 58 at the top end. A 5 e Wizard has 21. Cantrips dont count.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;834087Awesome, I love stuff like this. But what I mean about everybody going at once, don't the players still have to actually tell me IRL their turn actions one at a time?

So Player A says what he's going to do, then Player B, then Player C. Even if all of this is resolved at the same time, the players would know what the others are doing and thus can game it out anyway right? There would be no danger of Player B running into Player A because he already knows what Player A is doing before he declares his own move.

And since the entire side is going at once, but has to tell me their actions in order, how do you decide which order they go in? Is it the same every time? Random?

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;834084So, how might this scenario play out?
What likely actions could the PCs take? Where will they go?

QuoteWhere will M move to, and how many opportunity attacks will he take on the way?
How will he position his next fireball so as to hit EVERY post-move PC and not himself?

How will he deal with disabling or negating effects like healing (spells / potions), blindness, silence, command, darkness, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, sleep, menacing attack, rally, etc.

Quote from: Opaopajr;834117Once the cleric "undo button" gets up and the party spreads out, with one or two blocking the door, it's all over for M.

Quote from: Opaopajr;834088OK, Cantrips don't count.

Arcane Recovery

Spell Mastery

Signature Spells

Quote from: Omega;8341271: because the combat ones are functionally not much different from a ranged weapon. Heavy crossbow. Though a fast one to be sure.

2: Um... Arcane recovery is once per day.

3: Spell mastery is at 18th level, late game.

4: Level 20. Endgame.

Quote from: Omega;8340741: Definitly no. Casters are down signifigantly from AD&D levels. An AD&D MU had 37 spells at level 20 and a total of 58 at the top end. A 5 e Wizard {at lvl 20} has 21. Cantrips dont count.

Quote from: The Butcher;834155Hate to be That Guy, but has anyone had their fun cockblocked by Caster Supremacy, or are we spherical cowing again?

Quote from: Doom;833737As far as druids, I acknowledge some theory-crafting as the party druid just made level 5 (and is quitting after seeing what wizards can do, and already seen how nuts it was in PF), but his plan was just to start conjuring animals. 8 wolves are pretty strong with pack tactics, although admittedly not much chance they'd survive a fireball. Later, he was going to conjure swarms of beings that explode when they die (mephits, eg), but it's hard to tell how dominating that would be at higher levels.

Granted, that's not as amazing as Wizard Eye (auto-map all dungeons) and polymorph (free t-rex!), but those are level 4, where D&D normally starts to get kinda broken.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;834164Apparently at least one of Doom's players rage quit their Druid because of Other Caster Supremacy.

Quote from: The Butcher;834166Fair enough. If the player wanted to blow shit up he or she did roll the wrong class.

I can relate, actually. I wish Clerics had slightly better survivability (even with the Tempest and War domains) so I could duke it out in melee, like TSR D&D and even 3e, instead of hanging out in the back and pew-pewing those pesky orcs. If anything I wanted my Cleric to be less like a Wizard. :D But apparently Paladins have the close-range infidel-smiter niche cornered.

Generally speaking, I'm opposed to the idea of multiclassing, but maybe it's an answer to my conundrum? Fighter/Cleric or Barbarian/Cleric?

Quote from: The Butcher;834155Hate to be That Guy, but has anyone had their fun cockblocked by Caster Supremacy, or are we spherical cowing again?

Quote from: Natty Bodak;834174My first (still playing it) campaign character was a Tempest Cleric (a spur of the moment alternative to my original concept), and I had similar visions for him. In the fray, laying down the smite, etc.  Like you, I was underwhelmed by that part of it, although I lay some of that at the feet of my less than average hit points. I intentionally avoided any combat cantrips with the idea that I'd not be a pew-pew-er.  Nothing wrong with a sharp bit of steel and a bow.  I'm not always in the front line, but am there often enough. I've quite enjoyed it despite it not being what I expected.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;834174My first (still playing it) campaign character was a Tempest Cleric (a spur of the moment alternative to my original concept), and I had similar visions for him. In the fray, laying down the smite, etc.  Like you, I was underwhelmed by that part of it, although I lay some of that at the feet of my less than average hit points. I intentionally avoided any combat cantrips with the idea that I'd not be a pew-pew-er.  Nothing wrong with a sharp bit of steel and a bow.  I'm not always in the front line, but am there often enough. I've quite enjoyed it despite it not being what I expected.

Quote from: The Butcher;834155Hate to be That Guy, but has anyone had their fun cockblocked by Caster Supremacy, or are we spherical cowing again?

Quote from: The Butcher;834155Hate to be That Guy, but has anyone had their fun cockblocked by Caster Supremacy, or are we spherical cowing again?

Quote from: Greg Benage;834193My tempest cleric is level 8 now. I'm only using breastplate and shield to preserve stealthiness (and swimming, in a sea-faring campaign), but that still gives me AC 18. I have Con 16 with Resilient and 67 hit points. With divine strike, 2nd-level spiritual weapon and 3rd-level spirit guardians up, I deal excellent persistent damage for an entire combat (3d8 plus mods to single target, plus 3d8 save for half to everyone within 15 feet of me) but I have no nova ability without blasting spells. I don't see that as a bug, because I also have considerable AoE, control, healing and buffing abilities that the nova guys don't enjoy.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;834084M rolls better initiative than all four level 4 PCs (effectively the players have failed one of the rolls that protect them from circumstances like this). He places his fireball in the hall behind the PCs so there is no chance of it hitting him. That's what the red squares represent.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;834084Ok, I fully concede that doing this could prove me wrong, but I say we take this out of the abstract.

Here's an example of a reasonably ideal circumstance for our hypothetical NPC mage (M):

(http://i.imgur.com/YGnbCoD.png)

Quote from: The Butcher;834155Hate to be That Guy, but has anyone had their fun cockblocked by Caster Supremacy, or are we spherical cowing again?

Quote from: Sommerjon;834219Reasonably ideal for the PCs.
The NPC Mage?  Is screwed.

Quote from: Omega;834227Mis-apply even one element like Opaopajr and Doom apparently did

Quote from: danskmacabre;834264This thread has explored many facets of 5E and some of it has been quite interesting to read.
However the game balance thing doesn't bother me generally, as RPGs are not as simple as a list of combat stats.
RPG characters are so much more than that.
 
One thing I did find somewhat concerning though (if it's true), is grappling doesn't disrupt casting a spell.
That DOES seem pretty stupid to me.
If it comes up and it will eventually, I'll force some sort of concentration check vs a grapple roll or something to be able to get the spell off.
Isn't there some requirement to have a hand or something free to cast a spell?
There's the VSM requirement for spells, so it kind of infers that.
Perhaps I'll say something like:
If a Verbal component is required, then you can grapple to stick your hand or something over the mouth.
If a Material component (or spell focus) is required, again, a contested Grapple roll should be possible to stop the caster getting at the material components or focus.
If a Somatic component is required, then restraining arms via a grapple roll should be possible.

It's an easy thing to house-rule I think and overall I really like 5E.

Quote from: Doom;834273Exactly, there really needs to be a bit more that you can do against spellcasting...it's not like spellcasters only get a few spells or something, they get tons, and it's not like spells aren't particularly effective, they'd strong. So...why not have a way to at least *possibly* affect spellcasting.

Quote from: danskmacabre;834277In this case, if the Ranger hits at DISADVANTAGE (AND wins initiative) , the arrow hit's the Mage's hand that's grabbing or holding a focus or grabbing stuff..
Therefore the Mage can't fulfill the material component and the fireball fails.

Quote from: Omega;834278Disarm already does this though? Its in the DMG.

Quote from: Doom;834253I see I'm being misrepresented here again. What, pray tell, element, did I misapply?

Quote from: danskmacabre;834275Before this subject came up, I assumed there WAS a way to do that in the existing mechanics.
In a way there IS, you just need to expand it a bit.
A lot of spells have VSM Requirements, so as long as you can disable somehow the caster from fulfilling those requirements, then within the framework of the rules, you can stop the caster getting his spell off.

The only thing that's missing is the actual specific mechanic to handle this in the rules.
It seems to be an oversight to me, albeit a really big one.

The grappling rules seem like a way to do that. it's mostly there really, it just needs a bit of descriptive text added. You don't even need to add a new mechanic, just use the Grapple opposed dice roll to remove fulfilling one of the casting requirements as I described earlier.
 
5E is very moddable anyway and WotC seem to encourage the DM to wing it somewhat to reflect stuff that isn't covered, so it's not really a big thing.

I take the view in RPGs anyway that  if it seems like it's possible to do but the rules don't cover it, then the rules take a back seat to common sense.

Quote from: danskmacabre;834276To clarify a bit better...

A wizard is about to throw a fireball.
It has a VSM requirement.

Verbal: So he has to say stuff (Magical words to activate the spell)

Material: He has  a material component (or spell focus), so he has to grab some bat guano and Sulphur or hold onto his focus.

Somatic: He has to wave his hands about or throw the guano or whatever.

Lets say a fighter is in range to jump the mage and sees the Mage raising arms, chanting, grabbing stuff etc...
Or perhaps he knows he's a Mage and knows (or thinks he knows) the mage needs his arms free or to say stuff or grab stuff to get of a spell, which he assumes he's going to do.

The fighter decides he's going to grapple the mage and restrain his arms..

He assumes this will be enough to stop the spell getting off (It might not, if the spell doesn't have Somatic and Material components).
Normal Grapple test takes place..
If the fighter wins, the Mage's arms are restrained, stopping him doing stuff that requires use of arms.
In this case, he can't cast the fireball, as he needs his arms to get or hold onto the bat guano and Sulphur or hold onto/grab his focus.

The fighter might have chosen to cover his mouth instead or shove his face into the ground, stopping the mage fulfilling the Verbal requirement.
Again, same opposed grapple check, but the fighter is somehow covering the Mage's mouth.

No mechanics have been added. All that's been done here is flesh out the Grapple better and it really makes sense you should be able to do things things with a successful Grapple.

Quote from: danskmacabre;834277But wait! what if noone is in range to Grapple?

OK, so similar scenario..

Party rocks up, sees a Mage in the distance. It looks like he's about to throw a nasty spell... He has a glowing Orb in his hand or he's grabbing stuff from his robes..
Or the party is paranoid and assume he's up to something.

The party know they won't get to him in time...
The Ranger (or whoever might have a ranged weapon ready) states.
I take a ready action, as soon as he starts to grab stuff, I shoot at that hand, knocking it out of the hand or impaling it or something.

There's no specific rule for this, but there ARE rules to work with somewhat.

As I run RPGs in a pretty loose way I'd say the following:

The Ranger can do the called shot at the hand that's grabbing stuff and he'll have to take a ranged weapon attack as a readied action (assuming he beats the Mage at Initiative) at DISADVANTAGE, as it's a very specific location.
Damage will be applied normally however it'll disrupt whatever the Ranger was describing he wanted to stop..

In this case, if the Ranger hits at DISADVANTAGE (AND wins initiative) , the arrow hit's the Mage's hand that's grabbing or holding a focus or grabbing stuff..
Therefore the Mage can't fulfill the material component and the fireball fails.

I've only added one mechanic, which is the called shot Disadvantage ruling.

Maybe there's already called shot rules, in which case I'd use that, but if not, that makes sense to me.

Again, 5E is very easily moddable and IMO this doesn't break anything and a situation like this sounds reasonable to me.

Quote from: Opaopajr;834290The use of the Ready action to Disarm (DMG. Also not AL compliant, but fun nonetheless) is beautiful. However to use a Ready action means its already your turn, as you must a) not be Surprised, and b) use up your Action and Reaction to set up the trigger. And at that point you're sorta better off Moving out of the party cluster and just shooting the caster for massive amounts of damage as your party Dashes out into a dispersed anti-caster formation. Sharpshooter is disgusting by the way.

Too bad it is also nullified with the "One Free Interaction with the Environment" part that everyone gets on their turn. Which would be on the wizard's turn to, a) pick up the orb, or b) draw a new spell focus, and keep casting the spell's S and M components with the same, very dextrous, juggling, hand. Otherwise, fantastic design effort on your part — I was really feeling the moment there. (No, I'm not being sarcastic! It sounded like a fun old school game!)

Now if you had two ranged weapon fighters Readied... But then at that point you should have shot the caster dead or within an inch of its life, while also dispersing into anti-caster formation. Hey, Stabilizing the Dying isn't all that hard, and then you can gag and manacle the caster to interrogate at your leisure. :)

(I know, I'm no fun. :( )

Quote from: danskmacabre;834292I did assume you'd win initiative, it's your turn etc etc...
I agree it MIGHT be better to just pound the mage with lots of damage, but that's not necessarily an option at lower levels.
Once you get to higher levels, there's lots of special abilities, feats and so on that are probably better anyway.

AS to AL compatible, I have no interest whatsoever in AL, I only run games with friends, not in AL, which sounds awful.

Regarding using a free action to pick up the focus object.....   well who says it's gonna drop right at his feet? That depends on the environment. If it's a focus orb, it might roll off some distance..
If a caster has a focus object, it's likely they don't have components handy.

Still, we're stating very specific situations and circumstances.. I think in play it'd work, but analysing the minutae in extreme detail I agree can create awkward situations.

Quote from: Omega;834242Assuming those are 5ft squares and some of the PCs get initiative. Then yeah. They can be right there flanking the caster if even just two gets initiative before he casts. Assuming hes level 5 then hed have the Doom example of 2 fireballs to cast. If he doesnt have shaped spell then hes in potentially a lot of  trouble. With it he can point blank fireball them.

Even if they all scatter east and west to the walls he can still blanket them all in the blast radius unless 1 and 2 move north some and might just get outside the range. If 3 and 4 back up some then it gets even more interesting.

Which is a great example of how tactics and/or lack thereof can swing a battle far more than the dice ever could.

Quote from: Opaopajr;834295I understand and sympathize with the lack of desire for Organized Play. That said, of Organized Play formats, AL is really making an effort to include GM flexibility to enliven the game. I may criticize it, but I give tremendous credit to WotC's progress amid the current Organized Play environments.

Quote from: Opaopajr;834295As for your comments, I hope you don't mind as I comment on them explaining why it doesn't work like you think it does. Most of this comes from actual play experience, much of it from AL's rather competitive and rules exacting crucible. Enjoy! :)

Quote from: Opaopajr;834295As to the spell focus not dropping at their feet? You are allowed to break up your Move however much you want amid your Action/s and Bonus Action. It would have to fly away further than 30‘, and a wizard in a world with Disarm well known choosing to not drop extra gp for a spare focus/component pouch. Let's just say that example is vanishing unlikely. :)

Quote from: Sommerjon;834372Seem to be 5' squares according to the room size.

Greg nailed it.  No matter what the NPCMage does, he is doomed.

If I am running that encounter the NPCMage will instantly surrender, hopefully to live and fight another day.

Quote from: Omega;834550Yeah. A single fireball might not drop them, depends on their HP. I'd have to do the math on the chances of that. But assuming some survive if they all charge in its not going to be pretty for the mage. And a single fireball probably will not drop anyone unless someone gets lucky or unlucky.

If they arent all melee types then all some have to do is back up and plink away with arrows while the others engage.

If it were the current group I adventure with then Kefra and I would charge in to melee, Kefra in bear form or variant thereof as its pretty combat effective. Jannet would fall back and let fly the arrows. We might be able to drop him before round 2. But more likely would take longer than that. The second fireball would be worrysome if we were all level 5. I'll ask the others what they think.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;834552Ceding to the Mage both initiative and position for a no-collateral-damage fireball that hits every opponent, it looks pretty bad for the Mage. And all without a Wish spell for the Mage's retroactive miscarriage, no less.

Quote from: Opaopajr;834714Interesting mechanical introductions, such as with partially using your turn and then holding some for later, and flanking. Are you using houserules or DMG additions? Did Kefra use the Ready action with your arrival as a trigger?

Quote from: Natty Bodak;834552Ceding to the Mage both initiative and position for a no-collateral-damage fireball that hits every opponent, it looks pretty bad for the Mage. And all without a Wish spell for the Mage's retroactive miscarriage, no less.

Quote from: Doom;834869Absolutely, worst case scenario, mage doesn't go to a corner, cherry-picked classes (we all know Moon Druid is screwy, right?), everyone makes the save, give everyone an extra level, and damage roll is low, and it's a cakewalk.

Quote from: Omega;834700. We all make our saves again. .

Quote from: Opaopajr;834899In my actual play experience, a Great Weapon Master Barbarian should one-shot that mage, and a Sharpshooter Rogue should one-shot that same mage within low single digits, and we're not even getting into grittier details.

As long as we are allowed at least one healing potion, (as readily available in PHB equipment list, and supposedly in major cities,) and as expected among a party of four 4th lvls, that mage is toast.

:)

Quote from: Doom;834869So, just for fun, let's assume the barbarian rages, and has the movement to go to the mage in the corner; the rogue can just barely get a shot off and move to where a fireball won't get him and the barbarian at the same time (I'm assuming neither is a dwarf/halfling/slow mover). I'll let someone else do the math to see if the AC 19 wizard expects to die in one round from this, but I suspect it'll be a near thing at best (the barbarian might get lucky with a crit, I concede).

Quote from: Greg Benage;834946If the barbarian misses, what does M do? Did you say he tosses a magic missile? Let's make it 2nd level: That does 7 points of damage (bear totem again...). So the barbarian gets another 64% chance to drop the mage.
e.

Quote from: Opaopajr;834973That's why I said to Shipwreck's introduction of the example there's too many variables to say.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;834996It's... it's Shipyard... :(

(Heh, just kidding, I got this name from an online random word generator :p)

Quote from: Opaopajr;834973You're not defining why M, the mage, has AC 19. Besides Shield, which is +5 AC, how is M getting AC 14? Because the second you say Mage Armor, then we open the can of worms of "spells before battle." And if you give me those two casters, Cleric and Wizard, and allow spells before battle, you know that's game, set, and match.

QuoteAnd then we'll spill into "gear/feats/race before battle," and so on. You say fireball, I say Tiefling, or Diviner Wizard, or XYZ, et cetera. It's just not a fruitful path.

QuoteLook, I know where you are coming from about spellcasters. I agreed with you on the points about hard to counter their first turn, especially once they get the initiative drop on you. But now we're approaching White Room Arena wankery.

Quote(And yes, the feats would be using their -5 for +10 dmg,

Quoteto 'just say no'.)

Quote from: Doom;835022Tell you what if a poster in good faith says "yeah, my level 3+ wizard never casts mage armor, he just can't spare the spell slot" I'll buy this as at least remotely possible.

Quote from: Doom;835022Agreed. Mathematics shows that it's quite possible to lose two characters by the second round, although it's quite possible the survivors could get lucky and score double crits for max damage, I totally concede.

Quote from: Doom;835022Absolutely, the wankery of some folks here is ridiculous. I'm using parties with characters that have hit points, in dungeons with walls and corridors.

Quote from: Sommerjon;835028One of the great benefit of a mage is range, why in the hell would he be in such an inclosed space for?

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;835030When he's caught unawares in his throne room/arcane lab/ torture chamber/etc.  Pretty typical D&D scenario.

Quote from: Sommerjon;835034Why would he be caught unawares in his throne room/arcane lab/ torture chamber/etc.?  Was he blasting some heavy metal music?

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;835041You run the kind of campaign where top assassins attack the PCs in their sleep, every orc in the warrens converges on the party at the first logical sign of trouble, and there are no silly secret entrances to the Fortress of Blood, don't you? ;)

There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but in such a rigorously realistic simulation setup CR isn't really important, is it?

Often, in a game, the mage is caught in a non-PC-deathtrap room because it's a useful trope to many.

Quote from: Sommerjon;835034Why would he be caught unawares in his throne room/arcane lab/ torture chamber/etc.?  Was he blasting some heavy metal music?

Quote from: Doom;834968You've got the rules wrong here a bit though: only the first attack is reckless (p49, phb), and you don't get two attacks a round as a bear totem barbarian in any event.

QuoteI'm not even seeing Action Surge on the rogue, so he only gets one attack (making your "at least one attack" line confusing) and sneak attack damage also only applies once a round (p96).

QuoteSo the mage isn't going down on one round of survivor attacks...that second fireball is going off.

QuoteQuestion: how does the bear totem keep the two downed party members alive? I still feel 2 characters dead by round 1.5 if anything at all goes wrong is a bit much for an "easy" encounter, but I concede this is just my opinion.

QuoteI again maintain: are you ABSOLUTELY POSITIVE the level 5 wizard represents just as minimal risk to the party as a minotaur? Both are CR 3, but one doesn't rely on particular race/class/type combos in any way to avoid multiple deaths, and one takes very little (5' hallway, the ability to kite the party, minor hazards in the way) to put some real harm on the party.

Quote from: Doom;835022Absolutely, the wankery of some folks here is ridiculous. I'm using parties with characters that have hit points, in dungeons with walls and corridors. Then comes the wankery of making 8 saving throws in a row...[...]

Actually, I used math to show that's not going to be useful here; I know, it's wankery to use logic here. [...]

Agreed. Mathematics shows that it's quite possible to lose two characters by the second round, although it's quite possible the survivors could get lucky and score double crits for max damage, I totally concede.[...]

But having sprained my eyeballs rolling them at now putting the minotaur up as a pinnacle of character-slaughtering power in general. I mean, that's some severe intellectual dishonestly to argue 22 points of damage on a single character is going to kill him, after pages of denial that 28 points of damage on every character won't kill anyone.

I'm totally ready to let this rest on mathematics.

Quote from: Omega;834923How is anyone who has played with the official modules found them?

I have been DMing the much derided Tyrrany of Dragons and actually enjoyed it quite a bit. At first it seemed a little odd. But once I had a good handle on the cult, things started to click and it really rolled along well.

Quote from: Opaopajr;835098Point buy Barbarian caps at 16-17 STR, thus standard +5 atk and +3 dmg that almost everyone chooses. Add 2d6 great weapon average of 7. Add Great Weapon Master feat +10 dmg. Add Barbarian Rage dmg (STR melee only) that starts at +2 dmg from 1st lvl. 3+7+10+2= 22 HP.

22 HP - 22 HP. That's a one-shot average.

QuoteI don't understand why your math is not working according to basic citation and core rules? What are you changing or missing?

Quote from: Greg Benage;835089ETA: Ah! he needs a bonus action to Dash, which means he wouldn't be able to take two attacks Round 1. So as long as M runs over into the northwest corner where the rogue has to Dash to reach him, the rogue can take only one attack (so 40% to hit). I'll give my barbarian Shield Master and drop his damage a couple so he can knock M down with a bonus action and give the rogue advantage (back to 64%). ;)

QuoteNo, as I said, even after beating all four characters on initiative, there's still a 41% chance he goes down in Round 1 if the survivors act as I described.

QuoteThe rules keep them alive. They go to 0 hp on Round 1, and it takes at least three rounds to die assuming they fail all their death saves. Once M is dead, he can stabilize one per round automatically with a healer's kit.

Quote. In that case, the PCs have resolved the encounter at the cost of one rage, in terms of expendable resources.

Quote from: Opaopajr;835090Warding Bond (1 h, no conc) — often with simultaneous Bless (conc 1 minute) —alone destroys the Fireball example with its DEX saves and damage.

QuoteAny party investigating a hostile area would have at least Warding Bond on,

Quote from: Christopher Brady;835070You've never been caught unawares?  Ever?

Villains are 'human' too.  They make mistakes, get overconfident or are otherwise flawed.  That's what makes them interesting, even if they're meant to die like dogs.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;835030Jeez, maybe we should all cool it here. :eek:

I sent you some Warhammer Quest stuff basically free of charge didn't I Doom? I may have gotten a little testy, and for that I apologize, but it may be going a bit far to call me a wanker.

QuoteWhen he's caught unawares in his throne room/arcane lab/ torture chamber/etc.  Pretty typical D&D scenario.

Quote from: Doom;835121And the DM doesn't catch you on bad rules, and you swap around tactics to optimize when errors are pointed out. ;)

QuoteAbsolutely, it's quite possible the mage will get double critted in the first round and not do a point of damage, I've never disputed this.

QuoteBut, it's also quite possible the mage will kill two players on the second round, and that's in a worst-case-for-the-mage white room scenario.

Quote...in real scenarios, this is a dangerous encounter.

Quote from: Greg Benage;835132Well, hey! Back in post #47, you said it was a fact this was a "near-certain TPK." Now it's "dangerous." I guess it would have been a different thread if you'd managed to restrain the hyperbole.

Quote from: Doom;835125Oh yeah, the white room isn't too far from the mark (under the assumption of a single level 5 mage)--although many villains give themselves some sort of escape hatch. I really don't see the point of this, all the examples have shown quite clearly that even in the worst case scenario, simply winning initiative has a very reasonable chance of killing multiple characters, because of the objective issues I've raised.

Quote from: Greg Benage;835132At least I caught and corrected my own error. You seem incapable of conceding yours, even when others point them out for you.



To restate: It's not "quite possible" but highly probable that at least two PCs will beat M on initiative. In that event, there's a decent chance they take him down before he gets off a spell.



LOL. It seemed to me the fireball trap that the PCs can't prepare for and that automatically springs on them before even one of them can act was pretty bad for them! I didn't realize it was a "worst-case-for-the-mage scenario."



Well, hey! Back in post #47, you said it was a fact this was a "near-certain TPK." Now it's "dangerous." I guess it would have been a different thread if you'd managed to restrain the hyperbole.

Quote from: Doom;835182... although your namecalling isn't appreciated.

Quote from: Doom;835182Yes, absolutely, these guys all made good contributions to my point...after 15 pages of attempts, there still isn't any decent way to stop that second fireball from going off, which, hey, is my original point.

Quote from: Doom;835182and note that I didn't propose the white room scenario, that was someone else shifting the goalposts, which, since I am discussing in good faith, I addressed as well to further illustrate the point.

Quote from: Doom;835182Now, I'll try once again to pull back to the point of the thread: still playing 5e, and while there are some objective issues in spellcasting that are starting to cause problems, there's plenty of fun to be had here.

Quote from: Doom;835182Now, I'll try once again to pull back to the point of the thread: still playing 5e, and while there are some objective issues in spellcasting that are starting to cause problems, there's plenty of fun to be had here.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;835262I believe we actually demonstrated pretty well that your point was overstated and it isn't necessary to have a clear cut "universal spellcasting cock-block maneuver" (players love being on the receiving end of those :rolleyes:) for this scenario to be "fair enough" by 5e's rough* standards.

Quote from: Doom;8351822) no decent way (except for "counterspell") to stop spellcasting

Quote from: Mistwell;835323The mage slayer feat deals with this just fine.  And it's a good feat in general, and works well with your general grappler builds, which also work well and are fun and flavorful and not boring.

Quote from: Doom;835331That's funny, all the experts here spending pages trying to come up with something so that a non-counterspell player can reliably save his friends when an evil wizard is casting a spell, and there's a frickin' feat right there...for some reason I thought mage slayer was from an older version of the game.

Quote from: Doom;835118Ah, there's your problem right there: you're assuming a 100% chance to hit. My experience with the game is most characters don't hit AC 19 with 100% probability.

It's  a mathematical concept called "expected value". If you on average hit for 10 points of damage, and hit 50% of the time, then you expect to deal 5 damage a round. Granted, in a single round battle, expectation is pretty iffy, but when the chance to hit is 50% or so, it's good enough for a sketch (and if you're under 50%, like we are here because you're taking a -5 to hit, expectation is generous in a one round fight). I totally grant this particular barbarian could theoretically one shot the wizard, but he doesn't expect (there's that word again) to do so.

Yes, given the barbarian hits, he expects to kill the mage...but the example you cited gives only a 10% chance of doing so...that's somewhat less than reliable, in my opinion (and, apparently, only my opinion).

Quote from: Doom;835123It certainly does, but only if the cleric is immune to fire damage. Otherwise, the cleric could well die (and likely goes to 0) in the first round, as he takes fireball damage, AND takes half fireball damage on top of that. Ouch! Bless is pretty good, but I'm not convinced you're going to cast a 1 minute duration spell "just in case" something happens in the next minute...and I'm also not convinced the cleric is likely to make what could be a DC 27 concentration check...and if he goes to 0, it's a moot point.


 Neat, never had a character cast that...probably because of the old "crap, the cleric can die from this" drawback.

Again, you may as well just assume an entire party of Moon Druids...Teifling Moon Duids.

Quote from: Mistwell;835323Here is -ktkenshinx-'s Mage Slayer build from his excellent Grappler's Guide. (http://community.wizards.com/comment/51293186#comment-51293186)  You don't need most of this, but it's a fun character to play.

Spoiler

The Mage Slayer (Bard/Fighter/Rogue)
Some players just hate Wizards. You don't know what it is about Wizards that you hate, but boy do you hate them. Probably those pointy hats or their scrawny arms. Whatever the reason, when it comes to massacring mages at all levels of the game, accept nothing less than the Mage Slayer grappler. This is an extremely narrow build that, although useful against a variety of enemy types and classes, is at its best against those pesky magic users. There are tons of ways to build an antimage grappler (Wizard with Antimagic Field is another route), but this build will be the most relevant at all levels of the game, and is most likely to give your DMs magic practitioners a serious head/neck/throat ache.
 
The build functions around the almighty Silence spell, a no-save-allowed way to stop most magic cold. Your main class is College of Lore Bard, which gets you access to an arsenal of mage-murdering spells and gives you the highest possible single grapple checks of any class. It is critical to have high single grapple checks as a Mage Slayer because that initial grapple in the area of Silence is the most important. Once they are stuck there, they just can't do anything. Setting up that Silence will require a few different combinations of features, actions, and spells. As wizards scale up their power, your combos will scale with them. But because each engagement is so resource intensive, the build is heavily dependent on rests in between engagements, That play style might not suit everyone, but for those who want to give mages (and your DM) nightmares, this is the build for you.
 
As a final note, I emphasize this again: the build really is a single target, mage killing optimization. It's narrow, it's a nightmare for wizards, and it's a bit...strange, as far as grapplers go...
 
Starting Race: Human
Although you can go Mountain Dwarf in this build, Human is a better option because of how feat intensive the build is, especially at early levels.
 
Ability Scores: Here's your 27 point buy array assuming shameless optimization choices.
Str: 15 (Human +1 - Show those wimpy Wizards how it's done)
Dex 13 (Required for the Rogue multiclass)
Con 10 (This is a single-target, glass-cannon build. We can't afford to max out HP at the expense of other stas)
Int 8 (Int saves just aren't all that common, and those you do have to worry about shouldn't even work in an area of Silence)
Wis 10 (Never dump this; Wisdom saves tend to govern fear, and you do not want to be frightened as a grappler)
Cha 15 (Human +1 - More Charisma means more Cutting Words attempts)
 
Fighter 1
Human level 1 feat: Tavern Brawler
As with many grappling builds, start in Fighter to get the Heavy Armor Proficiency without spending a Feat. We get Warcaster both to concentrate on our spells in the fight, and to cast spells while wielding. We are also going to get the Dueling fighting style, and Tavern Brawler so we can grapple after making an attack (we will need that attack eventually to cause damage to trigger Mage Slayer).
Fighter 1 / Bard 1
With Heavy Armor acquired, we go straight for our Bard features/spells at level 3.
Fighter 1 / Bard 2
Fighter 1 / Bard 3
Expertise? Check. Cutting Words? Check. Silence? Check. Enhance Ability? Check. You now have access to your most basic combo. Cast Enhance Ability on yourself before the fight. At the beginning of the fight, walk over to the target and grapple them with advantage. Next turn, cast Silence on the area. We will defnitely do better than that later, but it's only level 4.
Fighter 1 / Bard 4
Level 4 Feat: Mage Slayer
Here's our next piece of the combo. Starting at level 5, you will encounter more situations where enemies have preexisting concentration-based spells before you grapple them. Those often need to go away if you are to win the fight, and Mage Slayer is going to get that done.
Fighter 1 / Bard 4 / Rogue 1
To break concentration, we need big damage rolls on a single attack at the start of the fight. Rogue is going to get that done. Level 1 gets you Sneak Attack; you already have Expertise from Bard..
Fighter 1 / Bard 4 / Rogue 2
Cunning Action normally rocks at this level, but you generally won't use it because of Tavern Brawler. We are really going into Rogue to get the next class feature.
Fighter 1 / Bard 4 / Rogue 3
Assassinate plus Mage Slayer plus surprise equals impossible concentration saves. Now that we have finished out the Mage Slayer feature tree, we can change our combo to really ruin a mage's day. For your pre-fight buff, you have two options from the Bard 2 spell list. You can either stick with Enhance Ability and use Stealth to approach a target, or you can use Invisibility. Either way, you just want to make sure your target is surprised. Walk up to them and stab them with your improvised weapon short sword; it shouldn't take too much DM convincing to improvise a short sword. The attack will automatically score a critical hit for 6d6+5 damage (2d6 short sword, 4d6 sneak attack, 3 strength, 2 dueling). That assumes no magical buffs that add damage die, and you are already at an expected DC 13 Concentration save that they must make with disadvantage. Then grapple them and hold them in place until next turn when you can Silence.
Fighter 2 / Bard 4 / Rogue 3
Action Surge. What an imbalanced ability. Now you can do the same combo as above but ALSO cast Silence in the same turn you stab and grapple.
Fighter 3 / Bard 4 / Rogue 3
Getting to Fighter 3 gets you Battle Master, which will almost always be a Trip Attack applied to your opening stab. It's also an added 2d8 damage (1d8 doubled) on your automatic critical hit, which ups that Con save to DC 17 with disadvantage on the roll. Now your combo looks like this: Sneak up and stab to force a concentration save. As part of that sneak, apply a trip attack to get them prone. Then take a bonus action to grapple off Tavern Brawler. Now Action Surge, drop your improvised Short Sword, and cast Silence.
Fighter 4 / Bard 4 / Rogue 3
Level 4 Feat: Warcaster, Lucky, Magic Initiate
Bunch of different feat options here. Go Warcaster to guarantee that Silence doesn't get cracked. Go Lucky for an added guarantee on the initial grapple check. Or go Magic Initiate to gain Find Familiar, which you can use to take the Help action on that initial grapple (freeing up your pre-battle spell for Invisibility).
Fighter 5 / Bard 4 / Rogue 3
Extra Attack is the next evolution of your mage-murdering combo. Now that you have two attacks, you can replace one with a shove attempt, and modify the opening stab with Menacing Attack instead of Trip Attack. Stalk up to your target and take the attack action. Apply Menacing Attack to the stab and force a DC 17 (average) save with dsiadvantage. If they fail the wisdom save on the Menacing Attack, now they have disadvantage for the rest of the turn. Use shove in place of your second extra attack, and grapple with Tavern Brawler as a bonus action. Drop the sword, action surge, cast Silence, and watch your DM and his wizard cry.
Fighter 5 / Bard 5 / Rogue 3
Fighter 5 / Bard 6 / Rogue 3
The big bonus here is Magical Secrets through College of Lore. And boy, there are a lot of options to pick from, so this is a great way to round out your skillset. Two standout options I want to discuss are Blinding Smite and Counterspell. Counterspell is a somatic-only spell that will work even with Silence, and it's the best way to guarantee that your caster is totally locked down. Blinding Smite is a Paladin spell that requires concentration (so no invisibility), but adds 3d8 damage to your attack roll and forces a save to avoid blindness. If you connect with Assassinate on that opening hit and auto crit, your save will be basically impossible to match: an AVERAGE save of DC 31 made with disadvantage. Even if you don't automatically crit, it's still a DC 17 average save with disadvantage. Those are just two options you can take at this level.
From Level 14 onward, I recommend that you continue progressing in Bard to get that level 10 Magical Secrets feature. Then you can paly with those last two levels wherever you want.
 
One key to this build is beating the scariest spell of them all: Freedom of Movement. It's actually not that hard, but it just requires a combo modification. You will still open with your massive damage spike, still grapple the target with Tavern Brawler, and still shove them with your attack. But instead of casting Silence, you will cast Dispel Magic and try to strip the buff away. The DC is 14, and your bonus will be 3 + 1/2 of your proficency bonus (thanks Jack of all Trades). If you have the presence of mind to Enhance Ability (Charisma) yourself beforehand, you will have advantage on that check. After you remove it, just have a Counterspell ready for the intervening turn to stop anything your opponent tries. Then just Silence at the beginning of your second round.
 
That description should give you some idea of how narrow this build is, but also how powerful it is at shutting down a single spellcasting target. Despite this narrowness, there are lots of ways to increase your flexibility; Bards have so many useful spells in that regard, and you definitely aren't a shabby grappler even your target isn't a Mage. Just figure out ways to adapt your combo and you will be ready for grappling anyone, whether scrawny-armed and pointed-hatted or not.

Quote from: Opaopajr;835359Oh my, that's a lot of effort. Or you could cast Silence on a copper, Sneak up and Sleight of Hand it onto their person. Drop it down their shirt, place it in their components pouch, tuck it in their belt or hat...

Who said Bards aren't fun! :D

Quote from: Opaopajr;835359Oh my, that's a lot of effort. Or you could cast Silence on a copper, Sneak up and Sleight of Hand it onto their person. Drop it down their shirt, place it in their components pouch, tuck it in their belt or hat...

Who said Bards aren't fun! :D

Quote from: Opaopajr;835359Oh my, that's a lot of effort. Or you could cast Silence on a copper, Sneak up and Sleight of Hand it onto their person. Drop it down their shirt, place it in their components pouch, tuck it in their belt or hat...

Who said Bards aren't fun! :D

Quote from: Greg Benage;835336LOL. I mentioned it on Page 14. But you were so offended about people "cherry-picking" character abilities, I thought we'd game out the scenario without feats.

You're a piece of work.

Quotein a world of carrot supremacy, no one ever has, or ever will, take the carrot slayer feat.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;835325Assuming the DM allows feats, not all do.  And if I remember correctly, are an optional choice for the game.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;835041Often, in a game, the mage is caught in a non-PC-deathtrap room because it's a useful trope to many.

Quote from: Doom;835022Tell you what if a poster in good faith says "yeah, my level 3+ wizard never casts mage armor, he just can't spare the spell slot" I'll buy this as at least remotely possible.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;835322I've been tempted to try a home game with this house rule I just came up.

What if we remove Counterspell, but any wizard/caster can burn a spell to Counter any incoming one as a Reaction at a percentage chance.

So an incoming 3rd level one, for example, could be countered with any 3rd, but at say...  a 95% success chance, so anything but a 1 on a D20.  You throw a Level 2 spell at a level 3, your success chance drops to 90% (failure on a 1-2), so on and so forth.

However, on the flip side, if you want to burn a higher level spell than the one incoming, then you get a 100% success rate.

Yes, it's an extra die roll, but it feels to like in the spirit of D&D magic, which is resource management.

Quote from: Omega;835498Been there, aint cast that. Next.
Irrelevant to my current Warlock. But was the case for the wizard before that.

Quote from: Doom;835501Fascinating, what on earth did you need the level 1 spell slots for?

Quote from: Omega;835497Was in the middle of a ritual to summon a succubus: Boy is he mad you guys spoiled his fun. Remember to loot his spell book!

Quote from: Omega;835497Working in his lab: Why the hell would he deathtrap his own lab? He probably wouldn't want any minions poking around in there either. Remember to loot the level 5 fireball scroll he was working on.

Quote from: Omega;835497Having a nice quiet dinner: Being appropriately paranoid he wouldn't have anyone within a quarter mile when he eats. Remember to loot the Periapt of Proof against Poison off him.

Quote from: Omega;835497Enjoying a soothing bubble bath: Because even stark naked any spellcaster is still armed and dangerous. Remember to loot the Decanter of Endless Water.

Quote from: Omega;835497Just got done banging a succubus: See bubble bath above for details. Remember to loot the... er... nevermind.

Quote from: Omega;835497You killed all his minions and defeated all his traps: He is cornered and this is it. Probably has nothing on him other than his spell focus. Jerk.

Quote from: Omega;835504Feather Fall. At low levels even a simple pit trap missed can be fatal. In 5e Feather Fall is a reaction spell.

The wizard and sorcerer in the group I am GMing for have not used Mage Armor either. The Sorcerer never picked it up. No idea why. And the Wizard has it. But reserves for Sleep spell.

Quote from: Sommerjon;835505Like I said before;
Stupid.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;835399Unfortunately for that tactic, in 5e Silence is only targetable on an area, not on objects.

Still, Silence and Grapple (or any other speed limiting trick) are quite effective. And even by itself Silence has proven to be valuable in herding casters (e.g. making them step into a self-immolating spot or out of line of sight or just a little closer than they'd like).

Quote from: Doom;835406There's also the issue that you can't cast silence on a copper piece anymore. And even if you use Silence/Grapple, we've got the "only a spellcaster can stop a spellcaster" problem. Of course you were told that before, and most of your other page of text has also been dissected and shown invalid before also. Seriously, ouch, it's not even worth responding to the other things you say, you're just so far removed.

Quote from: Sommerjon;835505People have invaded my tower, seems like a good time to start a ritual.

 No minions allowed!  Not even if we are being attacked.  I am working on my new biscuit recipe and shall not be disturbed!

 What is those sounds I keep hearing?  I am supposed to be having a nice quiet diner.  Oh well it must be nothing.

 Stay away minions! I am having bath time.  You deal with the problems.  Don't you dare get any blood or fluids on my shag carpets either, stupid minions.

 As the blood slowly pools under the door, from all of the minions peeping a sneak through the keyhole, completely unawares that they have been systematically slaughtered by the murderhobos.

Because that's what the modules says.

Like I said before;
Stupid.

Quote from: Doom;835506But we're past level 3, so not low levels...and most every low level monster hits for more than a 10' deep pit anyway.

Quote from: Omega;835523Early on we ran into a series of pit traps. Some shallow 10 foot deep ones. But several dropped down to the level below. Which was usually a fall of around 30+ feet. So 3d6 damage or more. Put some spikes at the bottom and that is 2d10 more potential damage. At level 5 my wizard had 21 HP I believe.

As for the others mentioned. I have no idea what their reasonings are past that the Sorcerer sure loves his Chromatic Orb, and the Wizard is murder with that damn Sleep spell.

As a player I do not put as much personal focus on a +3 AC bump and being a cookie-cutter loadout to every other cut-n-paste wizard. I might use Mage Armor on a later character. But probably not. In the end though its my call. My style.

Quote from: Opaopajr;835519However my other 'page of text' stands. Average HP to average dmg shows those PCs place M in one-shot range, one of many ways that render your initial assertion hyperbolic. Bless really messes with familiar tactics (1d4 to atk & save rolls).

QuoteWarding Bond (1 h, no conc) — often with simultaneous Bless (conc 1 minute) —alone destroys the Fireball example with its DEX saves and damage. Any party investigating a hostile area would have at least Warding Bond on, almost assuredly both if they are "accidentally running into" admage. IME Bless sends the team into 10 rounds of hyper-aggro rush.

Quote from: Omega;835498

Quote from: Doom;835022Tell you what if a poster in good faith says "yeah, my level 3+ wizard never casts mage armor, he just can't spare the spell slot" I'll buy this as at least remotely possible.

Been there, aint cast that. Next.
Irrelevant to my current Warlock. But was the case for the wizard before that.

Quote from: Doom;835550Fair enough, and since you call it a "cookie cutter" build you agree that its what (most) every wizard player has...

Quote from: Natty Bodak;835557Did you notice how quickly "if a poster in good faith says..." turned into an interrogation so he could turn his concession backhanded with the old " yeah, I guess it's true a retard might make that choice" gambit.

There's at least one other 1st spell slot you'll need to hold in reserve. One for Expeditious Retreat or Jump for when the goalposts make a run for it.

QuoteI was just curious if there were any legitimate edge cases where it would make sense (apparently not)

Quote from: Christopher Brady;835516If you have your villains able to counter the plans of the PC's every single time, you might find players not trusting you as a DM.  Doesn't mean they won't play in your games, they just won't trust you to 'play fair'.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;835516Personally, removing every chance the players have to surprise a Wizard is dull and boring, and frankly, not a game I'd ever want to be a part of.

Quote from: Omega;835520Yes, you are stupid sometimes. Off those meds again?

Quote from: Doom;835831Absolutely, if you don't like the rules of the game you should change the rules of the game, no doubt about that. On the other hand, isn't there a name for this sort of counter-argument to a possible issue with the rules?

QuoteDarn my eyes, I can't find vitality in the index of the PHB or DMG. Can you help me out?

Quote from: Doom;835831Absolutely, if you don't like the rules of the game you should change the rules of the game, no doubt about that. On the other hand, isn't there a name for this sort of counter-argument to a possible issue with the rules?

Darn my eyes, I can't find vitality in the index of the PHB or DMG. Can you help me out?

Quote from: Mistwell;835859Have you considered being less of a douchebag on the internet?

Quote from: Doom;835831Absolutely, if you don't like the rules of the game you should change the rules of the game, no doubt about that. On the other hand, isn't there a name for this sort of counter-argument to a possible issue with the rules?

Darn my eyes, I can't find vitality in the index of the PHB or DMG. Can you help me out?

Quote from: tenbones;835998I didn't take your response as snarky (and if you intended it as such - I don't care.) I'm just honestly trying to downplay something I think you're right about. And I'm also interested in showing how it's not a dealbreaker to the degree you "seem" to be making it to be. But I'm certainly not dismissing your claim.

I don't think my suggestions are "hard" Rule Zeroes either. I'm not talking about changing spellcasting at all. I prefer to raise the bar from the ground up - not lower from the top down. Adding Vitality is not Rule Zero, for instance. Creating custom in-game campaign reactions and counter-reactions and cultural context to the existence of casters in *whatever* form you choose to allow in games, is likewise not Rule Zero per se.

It's just good GMing.

Quote from: Doom;836012I honestly wasn't trying to snark, and at no point, in no way, do I mean to imply that the issues I've identified are a dealbreaker. 5e is a good game. Some folks are just so emotionally invested (the most polite interpretation) that they just can't handle a possible criticism.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;836019I think it's slowly dawning on you. You're saying it loud, but you just can't quite admit that you're talking about yourself yet.

Quite a few people have agreed with your overall thesis, but have criticized your hyperbole and unrealistic white roominess. Your inability to handle that  criticism has driven you to insults and condescension of people who otherwise largely agree with you.

This is going to be great material for an after school special once you're able to reel yourself back in a bit.

Quote from: Omega;836032No. Hes just backhanding again.

I call dibs on the book rights.

And since there is no topic because of this half-wits harping.

Fuck off. Im going back on topic for the umpteenth time.

Asked both the players I game with and the ones I GM with and the results were.

Kefra: Likes it overall. Likes the new magic system. Which is saying alot since she usually plays fighter types. Then again shes playing the druid like a figher...
Jannet: Likes it, but dissatisfied with the Ranger. Needs more arrows! Liking the Battle Master and the chance to be the tactical one for once.
Dev: Neutral, hasnt gotten to play much yet due to scheduling problems.
--
Daern: Bitch, piss, moan. The wizard is too weak. Not enough spells. yadda-yadda.
Nox: Really enjoying it.
James: Neutral, seems to be liking it. First time playing in 15 years and he keeps coming back so there must be something.

Quote from: Omega;836001Keep in mind that you can cast your Fireball, the opposing mage can use a reaction to cast counterspell. THEN you can use YOUR reaction to cast Counterspell to counter their Counterspell so the fireball still hits.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;836033Damn, there was an "on" topic at one point, wasn't there?

A week doesn't go by without someone breaking out into profanity about the PHB index.

Actual play-wise, everyone seems generally good with this edition.  There are two people I can think of that haven't liked the way their class is playing out relative to their expectations, but at least one of those is prone to sad-sacking all the time anyway.

Quote from: S'mon;836053I thought you can't use Reactions on your own turn? Did they change this in 5e?

Quote from: S'mon;836053I thought you can't use Reactions on your own turn? Did they change this in 5e?

Quote from: Omega;836058We will enjoy this lull in the shelling while we can comrade.

God the tiny font! Not as bad as the near microfiche White Wolf used on one of their sideline games but for fucks sake people! Then there is the numerous "see XYX"
IE: Snake: Poisonous: see Creature Statistics. > Creature Statistics: 304-311 > go leaf through all of Appendix D: Creature Statistics till you find it! arrrgh! Why did they even clutter the index with the entry then?

Having a class or widget not play out as you expected is probably fairly common. Though a tiny bit silly to carry over into a new game. Some of the feat changed from Next to 5e seem a little... odd... for example. But easily fixed or lived with. Going into it and expecting the Feats to be 3 or 4e feats though... Personally I still think they should not have been called feats. eh. Such is. I still like how the 5e feats play out as class personalization in 5e and are few and far between. If you even want them.

Kef hasnt taken any, opting for the stat points. Jan took one and is using the rest as stat points. So far I've used all mine for feats building on the theme. Daern and Nox have taken I believe 1 feat and the rest to stats. James went for stats only.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;836078Also of note: nobody has even vaguely considered multi-classing.

Quote from: tenbones;836075The Tiny Font! No kidding!! First time I actually got eyestrain looking at a book.

My group concensus is that 5e isn't fully fleshed out. We want more archetypes, more backgrounds, more optional sub-systems. Sure we could Rule Zero it all...

Or we could just play with a different ruleset. We've chosen the latter. Still like 5e, just want WotC to cook up a little more to go with it.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;836078In my groups, I think only one , or two at most, took feats at 4th. The one I'm sure of is the Paladin who took Sentinel. I kind of expect this to change at 8th, though. We'll see. Also of note: nobody has even vaguely considered multi-classing.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;836093I hate multiclassing, always have.  But I've always had one player always want to multiclass.  5e has not been different for me.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;836078In my groups, I think only one , or two at most, took feats at 4th. The one I'm sure of is the Paladin who took Sentinel. I kind of expect this to change at 8th, though. We'll see. Also of note: nobody has even vaguely considered multi-classing.

Quote from: Sommerjon;836153Of the 6 players in our PotA campaign.
Multiclass:  Paladin/Barbarian, Rogue/Druid, Warlock/Fighter*, Rogue/Fighter**.
Versus: Ranger, Ranger*, Bard**, Sorcerer.

red text = dead '*' indicates new character

Quote from: Natty Bodak;836156Interesting! How would you characterize their various reasons for multiclassing? A character concept that didn't quite fit a single class, mechanical reasons, or in game development (e.g. in game mentor or what have you), or something else entirely?

Use 5d6(instead of 4d6) arrange to taste.
Have a feat/stat bump at level 1.
Start at level 4.

Quote from: Matt;836166What ever happened to fighter, magic-user, cleric, thief? Not sexy enough compared to Doomslayer, Spellsworder, Dragonburglar, and Beastlover?

Quote from: Matt;836166What ever happened to fighter, magic-user, cleric, thief? Not sexy enough compared to Doomslayer, Spellsworder, Dragonburglar, and Beastlover?

Quote from: Sommerjon;836165I could say it is for 'story' reasons for a couple, but I'll call it what it actually is 99.99999% of the time; Munchkinism

I made it super duper easy fun time for them

Use 5d6(instead of 4d6) arrange to taste.
Have a feat/stat bump at level 1.
Start at level 4.

And they* are still not satisfied.
The Paladin/Barbarian player wants to run around with no armor and have a high AC. Also wants a high movement to catch fleeing creatures more easily.

The Rogue/Druid is Don from another thread.  And Don ALWAYS plays rogue and something else, no matter the system.  He made it 5 days with a cleric/warlock character before calling me and changing it to rogue/druid.  Also needs high movement to run down fleeers.

The Warlock/Fighter* is the new guy in the group.  He's played a bit and from what we can gather (he said it was "D&D") but sure sounds more like a freeform roleplay thing to us.  Anywhits, he pointed to a cardboard cutout of some M:tG character the store has and wanted to play that.  So I suggested Warlock/Fighter.  He wanted to wear armor and cast magic.

The Rogue/Fighter is doing it because duel wielding Fighter.  He is actually going Arcane Trickster.



Truthfully?  They would have a much better time with other game systems(read skilled based ones) then they do with D&D, but D&D is their Binky  

*is the exception.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;836184This is the point where a couple of people jump into the thread to tell you you need better players and should lay down a bunch of ultimatums and tabletop players just grow on trees and who cares if it's your friends and etc... :rolleyes:

Quote from: Matt;836166What ever happened to fighter, magic-user, cleric, thief? Not sexy enough compared to Doomslayer, Spellsworder, Dragonburglar, and Beastlover?

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;836202Is multi classing in 5e too good? Like I know powergamers will try to squeeze blood from a stone regardless of what sense it makes but will it produce OP characters in 5e?

Quote from: Matt;836166What ever happened to fighter, magic-user, cleric, thief? Not sexy enough compared to Doomslayer, Spellsworder, Dragonburglar, and Beastlover?

Quote from: Omega;836192On the other hand I will observe that  all of the examples he sited sound pretty weak or could have been done better with one of the class tracks, actually you know role playing, or feats, or backgrounds.

The Paladin/Barbarian. Just play a paladin with oath of vengance, not wear armour, maybe carry over the barbarians fight unarmoured skill as a feat they have to buy. The Fighter/Warlock could be done with the Eldritch Knight for example. The Thief/Druid is the only one that would make sense. A stealth spy in animal form. Though even that could be done with a straight up Druid and some creative use of backgrounds, feats, or carrying over some thief skills as feats or whatever.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;836202Is multi classing in 5e too good? Like I know powergamers will try to squeeze blood from a stone regardless of what sense it makes but will it produce OP characters in 5e?

Quote from: Omega;836235Its pretty awful in 5e. Which was the point apparently. But some seem to cling to the mindset of 3e. In 5e any sort of multiclassing is going to hose your character at later levels. Sure you might get some sort of perk early on. But later you may be more a liability. That and its both optional and some effects can be had by less detrimental means like I described in the previous post.

Quote from: Matt;836247When I hear it said that playing fighter, thief, etc. (the original classes) means one can't play one's concept due to the limited options to differentiate Fighter A from Fighter B and Magic-user A from Magic-user B, I always wonder: isn't that what the roleplaying part is for? Otherwise you're just playing statistical games with numbers and bell curves, no? One can play the same set of stats any number of ways. Don't blame the game for failure of your imagination.

Quote from: Sommerjon;836249It amuses me when this is trotted out.

People play the same shit over and over and over again.  Some acknowledge it others refuse to admit to it.

Sure in your mind there is no correlation at all between "vainglorious duelist" and "cynical mercenary" they're completely 'different' concepts.
What everyone at the table sees in reality is Matt playing the arrogant ass as usual.

Quote from: Matt;836250Sad about your embarassment over the failure of your imagination making you lash out that way.

Quote from: cranebump;836254C'mon now, this is therpgsite--there's enough arrogant douche-baggery for everybody here (sports "I've got mine!" pin).

Quote from: Matt;836166What ever happened to fighter, magic-user, cleric, thief?

Quote from: Sommerjon;836165I could say it is for 'story' reasons for a couple, but I'll call it what it actually is 99.99999% of the time; Munchkinism

I made it super duper easy fun time for them

Use 5d6(instead of 4d6) arrange to taste.
Have a feat/stat bump at level 1.
Start at level 4.

And they* are still not satisfied.
The Paladin/Barbarian player wants to run around with no armor and have a high AC. Also wants a high movement to catch fleeing creatures more easily.

The Rogue/Druid is Don from another thread.  And Don ALWAYS plays rogue and something else, no matter the system.  He made it 5 days with a cleric/warlock character before calling me and changing it to rogue/druid.  Also needs high movement to run down fleeers.

The Warlock/Fighter* is the new guy in the group.  He's played a bit and from what we can gather (he said it was "D&D") but sure sounds more like a freeform roleplay thing to us.  Anywhits, he pointed to a cardboard cutout of some M:tG character the store has and wanted to play that.  So I suggested Warlock/Fighter.  He wanted to wear armor and cast magic.

The Rogue/Fighter is doing it because duel wielding Fighter.  He is actually going Arcane Trickster.



Truthfully?  They would have a much better time with other game systems(read skilled based ones) then they do with D&D, but D&D is their Binky  

*is the exception.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;836282I have a friend I've known since college who simply cannot tolerate *not* playing a thief in some form for any length of time. We may all have a Don or two.

Well, more power to them if that's their thing.

Is this the group that's doing PotA? How are the they faring, and are the multi classers getting what they wanted out of it?

Quote from: Doom;833337Consider the devastation when a party of level 4 characters meets a level 5 wizard, with no special abilities.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;833408Here are the things that can, and actually did, prevent the wizard from casting fireball.

• Command (1st level Cleric spell)
• Silence (2nd level Cleric spell)
• Counterspell (3rd level Wizard spell)
• Sleep (1st level Wizard spell, cast as a second level spell in my particular case)
• A 5th level Rogue with Assasinate

Quote from: Doom;833527Uh, no. I've just been playing and DMing the game with a number of skilled players, so it becomes ever more obvious just how overwhelming the spellcasting can be.

Quote from: Opaopajr;833755My recommendation, don't play Adventure League (current expeditions are being written poorly, so little loss there now) and houserule your game with interrupt-able casting. Yes, I share your complaint here. Fighters looked scary at first, and then we got a chance to see what spells can really do later. If GMs don't starve out player resources by making Long Rests harder to get, there goes the game. Starve out the novas and reintroduce the 'martial counterspell'.

Quote from: Doom;834012Weird. In my games we use a grid so the mage really isn't going to fireball himself under any reasonable circumstance.

QuoteYou must be playing on pretty huge maps. Looking through Rise of Tiamat, the first dungeon (ice dragon lair) doesn't have a single room that isn't completely covered by Fireball, except for the final room, which does have one crack where a player might stand. The second dungeon (mummy tomb) doesn't have a single room that isn't completely covered by Fireball. The third dungeon (green dragon lair) has one room that isn't completely covered by Fireball, again with just barely enough space for 2 players. The fourth dungeon has two rooms out of two dozen, but the players would have to run to all four corners. All these maps have places a mage could stand where he wouldn't be surrounded, including 5' corridors.

QuoteWell, I cited an actual published adventure. Can you cite one where more than half the rooms grant the ability for the party to not sit within a 20' radius sphere?

Quote from: Opaopajr;835789That wipes out all pt. buy 4th lvls but a Hill Dwarf Barbarian with max pt. buy CON. (12+(7x3) +4x(+3CON +1 race))= 49 HP.

Quote from: rawma;837482For true caster supremacy, go back to OD&D: 3rd level magic-user can probably TPK most 2nd level parties (probably started invisible; sleep, 2d6 creatures of 2nd level); the only defense was initiative or having a dwarf or hobbit (save as 4 levels higher).

Quote from: rawma;837482From actual play experience, our third to fourth level party at Lance Rock, with obvious evidence of someone casting Animate Dead, proceeded cautiously expecting that there could be a wizard with fireball (bat familiar scouting, rogue hidden at some distance, party spread out) and could possibly have weathered the two fireball TPK (my third level hill dwarf already has 30 HP), although I expected that at least one 3rd level spell slot would be gone from refreshing control of the zombies. And at the last Expeditions, we had a party of seven: 2 tieflings, 3 dragon born (although only two breathed fire), my hill dwarf and a human wizard (I cast so much healing to keep that guy from dying; he went to 0 at least three times). In the past, we've also used illusions to draw area attacks (from dragon breath and mages).

So, my mage slaying feat is spreading out. And stealth.

My two mage slaying feats are spreading out and stealth. And hit points.

Among my mage slaying feats are spreading out, stealth, hit points, fire resistance and illusion.

Quote from: Opaopajr;837487Sleep is one of those weird changes in this edition (similarly how Color Spray has been neutered to 1 round). Coup de Grace rules existed about sleeping subjects for AD&D 2e and D&D 3e. IIRC, similar rules for slumbering opponents were present in 0D&D, 1e, and 4e. 5e Sleep, though solid, is nowhere the lethality of old due to the spells own rules on how to be shaken out of it and the Unconscious condition (lack of Coup de Grace) rules.

Quote from: cranebump;837497Beyond that, I'm finding I really don't care for easy, near-ubiquitous Magic. I like it rare and dangerous. This means I'll likely run a completely different fantasy system next time I reboot a campaign. Barbarians of Lemuria it is!

Quote from: Omega;837532Pretty much since their introduction in Dragon Magazine Cantrips have been a thorn in the side once they officially appeared in Unearthed Arcana. 2e dropped them (Well aside from the 1st level spell Cantrip.) Later editions brought them back and even more powerful.

Quote from: cranebump;837539Of course, I don't generally run casters. If I did, I *guess* I might get miffed about the whole "out of spells, I'm useless" thing. I think, though, if you consider the Wiz the "educated" member of the party, their contributions skill-wise, would be immense, particularly if they're the acknowledged "Lore Master" of the party.

Quote from: Sommerjon;833577Truthfully?  Not a whole helluvalot.
If you are wanting some real world logic with that description.  Not enough oxygen to ignite the room.  The fireball doesn't last long enough to ignite the room/contents.


:rolleyes:

Quote from: S'mon;837485You count that as giving +4 hit dice for the purpose of Sleep spells? Or you give everyone a save vs spell to not get Sleeped?

In Classic D&D AFAICT a Sleep spell takes out 2d8 hit dice, no saves, no resistance. IMC I give Elves 90% Resistance to Sleep & Charm as per 1e AD&D.

Quote from: cranebump;837497Ended up making a 5th level halfling sorcerer draconic bloodline who was a criminal enforcer. His "enforcement" includes a lot of single target damage.  What I realized after finally getting all the info down--dude will never use the daggers he carries.

Quote from: Sommerjon;837503You counter with your example of mage slaying featy tactics at one particular spot.
Talk about Kind of a cherry-picked example  :rolleyes:

Quote from: rawma;837574Hmm, I see the interpretation that it's only actual saving throws and not things where level determines susceptibility, although I never played with any group that took it that way. And for my example of old school caster supremacy it just makes the magic-user more likely to TPK.

The interpretation we used was no saving throw for sleep, but we treated the Nth level dwarf or hobbit as (N+4)th level versus magic.

Quote from: rawma;837581I said cherry picking because it was 5th level wizard (just gotten two fireballs) versus 4th level characters (just short of all the increases that come with fifth level: extra attack, extra cantrip damage, 3rd level spells especially counterspell, and so on). Doom wanted to argue that, generally, spell casters blow everyone out of the water but chose a hypothetical that was heavily biased his way.

Quote from: Sommerjon;837787Not cherry-picking.  
A CR3 arcane spellcaster in 5e is 5th lvl.
There is these 2 levels of uncertainty for groups if a DM uses them.  How different would this be if the DM decides to allow the NPCs to have the PC side of the class as well, Spell points.  Bam-Bam 2 fireballs one round.

Quote from: Sommerjon;837795Meant Quicken Spell.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;837800Ah. I don't have the text of Quicken Spell handy, but in that case even though you can make fireball a bonus action, you can't then cast a non-cantrip with your remaining action due to the general spellcasting limitations under Casting Time.

Quote from: Sommerjon;837830Ah, that's true.   Knew there was something about that.  I'd play attention more if I really gave a shit about this edition.
Makes you wonder why even bother to play as a Sorcerer.

Quote from: Sommerjon;837795Meant Quicken Spell.

Quote from: cranebump;837837Can cast this, if X, which lets you Y, but only if Z...

That's it--I'm quitting 5E as of this moment.:-)

Quote from: cranebump;837837Can cast this, if X, which lets you Y, but only if Z...

That's it--I'm quitting 5E as of this moment.:-)

Quote from: Natty Bodak;837839If you would have followed the PHB index redirections all the way through, you would have seen that quitting requires a free hand, which can also be the same hand you use for a rude somatic gesture, but is not hindered by the grapple condition.

But you can always house rule it!

Quote from: Natty Bodak;837839If you would have followed the PHB index redirections all the way through, you would have seen that quitting requires a free hand, which can also be the same hand you use for a rude somatic gesture, but is not hindered by the grapple condition.

But you can always house rule it!

Quote from: Sommerjon;837787Not cherry-picking.  
A CR3 arcane spellcaster in 5e is 5th lvl.

Quote from: rawma;837892So it's cherry picking a party and an enemy that has a CR that doesn't match the challenge it presents to that party (with the advantage of bad tactics by the party and winning initiative). CR isn't an infallible indicator of how tough something is in all circumstances. The example is still cherry picking.

Quote from: Sommerjon;837911Who cares about "tactics"

QuoteI am looking at their published products.  PotA is silly about it.  1d4 CR3 spellcasters on flying mounts no less.  That is an encounter a 3rd lvl group can go up against.  Luckily they don't have fireball, they gots lightning bolts.  If played the way they suggest, they ain't stopping to parley.  They be killing you and taking your stuff.

Quote from: rawma;838015Those of us whose characters are still alive care. Others can carve those four words onto their characters' tombstones.

Quote from: rawma;838015Do you and Doom ever read the published products?

Quote from: rawma;838015I believe you're referencing the Air Cult Skyriders, page 30: They don't appear in the "Early Travels" table; the "Later Travels" table is for chapter 5, when the PCs should be 10th level, if you follow the various Character Advancement sidebars (pages 41, 75, 113). But they could appear via the River Travels table, although the river is at least 40 miles away (map, page 32) and they are led by a Feathergale Knight who "survey the land around Feathergale Spire, guarding the entrance to the air cult's hidden temple" and their cult "relies upon deception and trickery to ... defeat its enemies" (page 189) - all giving little motivation to attack as you suggest.

Quote from: rawma;838015(The player characters can approach Feathergale Spire and be invited inside if they're friendly - "Peaceful visitors who approach openly are welcome", page 46.).

Quote from: rawma;838015And 3rd level PCs have probably not brought much attention to themselves,

Quote from: rawma;838015except perhaps by giving the Cult of the Black Earth a black eye in Red Larch, which will probably endear them to the air cult.

Quote from: rawma;838015Players with 3rd level characters who do attack people on hippogriffs and giant vultures without knowing what's going on should be killed (this is "bad strategy" rather than "bad tactics"),

Quote from: rawma;838015although the DM can rescue them with friendly aarakocra (as on page 50).

Quote from: rawma;838015The very bad organization of that book is much more annoying than the encounter you complain of.

Quote from: Sommerjon;838088You forgot this is rpgsite no matter what is said another has already gone through that very thing with a completely different outcome dozens of times already.

See that's the problem with "tactics" on the internet.

Quote from: rawma;838015Do you and Doom ever read the published products?

Quote from: Sommerjon;838088Yes.

Quote from: rawma;838113So ... your argument is that the only possible result is a TPK by the CR3 caster against the 4th level party, because here on the forum every possible different outcome exists, and therefore only one outcome is possible.

Quote from: rawma;838113Evidently not.

Quote from: rawma;838113If you mean the description of the Skyweavers specifically ("Skyweavers brim with rage and desire" and "thrill with the rush of releasing raw elemental energy"), I didn't view it as relevant for a group whose leader is a Feathergale Knight, a fop who is in denial about his degree of decadence and corruption; you did read the part where initiates to the cult gain what they seek but lose their free will? And the Feathergale Society is secretly dedicated to Yan-C-Bin; attacking rampantly kind of blows their cover and their self-image as "aerial enthusiasts". With no indication that the air cult is in disarray, I don't expect a mutiny, so the attitude of the non-leaders is unimportant. But if they were that violent, I would expect that after flying 40 miles in a non-barren region, the attack-anyone-on-sight skyweavers would be out of lightning bolts.

Quote from: rawma;838113I'm quoting for the attitude of the air cultists. If they're not instantly murderous in their own stronghold, why would they be, near a river 40 miles away?

Quote from: rawma;838113Obviously way, way over your head.

Quote from: rawma;838113Where did that come from? My point was that 3rd level characters faced with unknown humanoids on hippogriffs and vultures probably shouldn't start the fight. I would be unhappy if my DM gave no indication that the river area is more dangerous to the 3rd level party than the nearby hills. But your attitude that NPCs have to attack is really the gold standard for unimaginative.

Quote from: rawma;838113Yeah, you didn't read it.  Aarakocra scouts are one line above the air cult skyriders in the River Travels encounter chart, and are described on the same page: they "attack those who appear to be elemental cultists. Otherwise the aarakocra might be helpful." So obviously some can be in the vicinity. Unless it's also your unimaginative opinion that one and only one random encounter is allowed at a time and that you'll be arrested if you soften the nastiest random encounter on the table by throwing in some potential allies.

Quote from: rawma;838113"I am looking at their published products. PotA is silly about it. 1d4 CR3 spellcasters on flying mounts no less. That is an encounter a 3rd lvl group can go up against. Luckily they don't have fireball, they gots lightning bolts. If played the way they suggest, they ain't stopping to parley. They be killing you and taking your stuff." isn't complaining?

Quote from: rawma;838113DMs have a lot of latitude. "Place an encounter in the range that fits the story you want. Every encounter need not be a confrontation." (page 30) - so explicit permission to make it what you want is given. Rigging it for the benefit of the story you want is too much for me, but I'm OK with non-confrontation or sub-optimal tactics for over-powered encounters if the role-playing justifies it. With your style, nobody should make it through Thundertree in the Starter Set: that's a 3rd level party meeting a Young Green Dragon.

QuoteThe eagle-eyed Sam Simpson, a member of our customer service team, noticed that the document released on June 10 missed a few details that appear in the third printing of the Player's Handbook. As a result, we've updated the document to version 1.1 to be truly comprehensive.

Quote from: Sommerjon;838143No. Possible different outcome exists, therefore I gives a fuck about your "tactics".

QuoteI'm talking about the whole Feathergale Knight Entry + the entry on the Howling Hatred Cultists.  I'm not cherry picking certain parts.

QuoteThe attitude of, we are trying to hide our true selves behind a mask of civility?
The concept that the elemental cults are batshit crazy fuckers?
The whole goddamn book is about the elemental cults attacking the valley.
Yet for some dumb reason you full stop at they're not instantly murderous in their own stronghold and apply that to everywhere.

QuoteTerrain dictates.

QuoteThey have multiple encounters like that for 3&4 lvl groups in PotA

QuoteIDK, we 3 manned that Dragon encounter.
The group is currently lvl 5 just got done taking out Riverguard Keep.  Gained entry by subterfuge, btw.  They spent almost a month inside the Keep before attacking.  On the way to the Keep at lvl5 rolled that skyweaver encounter, ignored it.

Quote from: rawma;838284The point of tactics is not certainty but to improve the odds. Carry on with your tactic of complaining that encounters are too hard.

Quote from: rawma;838284Quoting relevant parts is not cherry picking; the additional parts don't override the parts I quoted.

Quote from: rawma;838284The attacks are not openly made (at the point where the PCs are 3rd level). And 40 miles away is not far away, and any witness is going to associate attacks from giant vulture riders with the aerial enthusiasts who train them.

If you want to play a game where everybody, PC and NPC, attacks instantly without any tactics, that's up to you. The published adventure does not force anyone else to do so.

Quote from: rawma;838284Dictates what? That the player characters must attack? That the Feathergale Knight must attack? Both sides? All without using any tactics? :rolleyes:

Quote from: rawma;838284Where? The skyweavers are the only such random encounter, and only in the river vicinity, and I don't see any other instances before the party should have leveled up.

Quote from: rawma;838284You seem to have no point except inconsistent gotchas that collapse at the first scrutiny. The adventure specifically authorizes the DM powers that your group used; not every encounter need be a confrontation.

Quote from: Sommerjon;838313I am agreeing with Doom that according to WotC a 5lvl spellcaster is a CR3.

Quote from: rawma;838317I guess I shouldn't expect you to read my posts when you haven't read a book that you might even have paid money for.

Quote from: Sommerjon;838347You accuse others of cherry picking, then to suit your narrative you cherry pick.

Quote from: cranebump;838349When this thread started I sorta liked 5E. Not anymore...

Quote from: rawma;838354When Doom makes absolute statements about caster supremacy, it's a universal statement; choosing the most favorable situation to support it is cherry picking. What level party would do as badly against the CR6 level 9 mage in the Monster Manual? In all of the N+epsilon level caster versus Nth level party, 5 versus 4 is the best for the caster. And then he adds other favorable assumptions, like initiative. So, cherry picking.

Quote from: rawma;838354With regards to your statements, I still have no idea what you're trying to say, since you contradict yourself constantly.

Quote from: rawma;838354When Doom makes absolute statements about caster supremacy, it's a universal statement; choosing the most favorable situation to support it is cherry picking. What level party would do as badly against the CR6 level 9 mage in the Monster Manual? In all of the N+epsilon level caster versus Nth level party, 5 versus 4 is the best for the caster. And then he adds other favorable assumptions, like initiative. So, cherry picking.

Quote from: Omega;838365I think what rubs some the wrong way, even me, is that the handling of the balance was a little heavy handed. Cantrips being the most glaring. Even with their various limiters. They still so a fair amount of damage depending on the situation and what you have loaded. But aside from the various perks of some of the cantrips like slowing. They match up overall to what a fighter can output with judicious weapon selection. And the fighter can outperform a cantrip if they really focus on pure assault.

But we have overall gone from Gandalf or Merlin to Doctor Strange or Zatanna.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;838372Gandalf wasn't very wizard-like in the first place, but at higher levels in AD&D 2e, casters became Dr. Strange anyway, so I'm not sure why starting earlier is any more odd.

Quote from: Omega;838365But we have overall gone from Gandalf or Merlin to Doctor Strange or Zatanna.

Quote from: Votan;838432This is a very good point.  It isn't necessarily bad: Doctor Strange can adventure quite nicely with Wolverine and Spider Man.  But it isn't to everyone's taste.

Quote from: Opaopajr;838559Sword 'n sorcery/sandal it is not. I'm still working on how I want to parse my 5e campaign edits to get closer to a low/no magic setting. Just porting over my Birthright game has its challenges because of infinite cantrips, no martial spell counter, and V,S,M changes.

A pity because there's lots of little rules that simplify other things, like exhaustion, suffocation, riding, and travel rules.

Quote from: Opaopajr;838559Sword 'n sorcery/sandal it is not.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;838615It never was.  It was meant to be for a war game, you had your Hero unit and your minion units and they all went on an adventure, involving resource management.

Quote from: Opaopajr;838617Oh, you're joking about my Birthright example? Heh, ok. :p

Quote from: Opaopajr;838559Sword 'n sorcery/sandal it is not. I'm still working on how I want to parse my 5e campaign edits to get closer to a low/no magic setting. Just porting over my Birthright game has its challenges because of infinite cantrips, no martial spell counter, and V,S,M changes.

A pity because there's lots of little rules that simplify other things, like exhaustion, suffocation, riding, and travel rules.

Quote from: S'mon;838650Strange - I'm finding 5e fantastic for my swords & sorcery campaign. It might be a player-side issue. One thing I did was incentivise playing humans by providing variant humans with different attribute modifier arrays:

Altanian: +2 STR +1 DEX +2 CON +0 INT +1 WIS +0 CHA
Amazon: +1 STR +1 DEX +0 CON +0 INT +2 WIS +2 CHA

Another bigger thing I did was have all the Pregens be human non-caster: Fighter, Barbarian, Rogue, which players could then tweak as desired. My current group is Barbarian, Rogue, Warlock, all human, with another occasional Barbarian.

You could take it further by limiting class options to Barbarian Fighter Rogue and Warlock, that should feel very S&S. Or eliminate Warlock in a no-magic campaign.

Quote from: Votan;838432This is a very good point.  It isn't necessarily bad: Doctor Strange can adventure quite nicely with Wolverine and Spider Man.  But it isn't to everyone's taste.

Quote from: Necrozius;839344The only thing that I'm not sure of handling is weapon and armor proficiency allotment by class: in different settings (eg, in Ancient Greece) it gets tricky to adjust that stuff, especially if the weapon lists get shrunk down a great deal. Frankly I'd like to ditch those or re-work them somehow while still giving the martial classes some kind of benefit.

Quote from: Votan;839554I would generally see weapons as a much smaller issue than armor.  Any likely setting will have some martial weapons and the loss of a few points of damage isn't going to sink a class (which is about the worst outcome if the best weapon drops fro 2d6 to 1d8).  

Armor is trickier, as it really does play a big role for classes like Fighter and Paladin.  But then you can always decide full Hoplite gear is really Plate armor -- it isn't all that different than practical battle plate.

Quote from: RPGPundit;839301How is everyone liking its adaptability?

Quote from: Omega;839595One of the nice things about 5e is that you can adapt it without having to even house rule. Classes and races can be omitted and the DMG even suggests it. Not to mention Basic does it heavily.