To address the original topic: I'm really happy with 5e.

On the side topic brought up: I've only run part of Lost Mine of Phandelver, but I mostly like it.

On the subject of CR: a monster that dealt 112 points per round (albeit with a 14-15 DC save) and had AC19 and low hit points would be CR 9 by my computation; the wizard is much lower because the damage drops precipitously after 2 rounds and the armor class depends on advance warning (to cast mage armor) and can only last four rounds (if using a spell slot for attack every round). The note about challenge ratings on page 82 of the DMG seems apropos (even if the CR 3 is lower than the party's average level). CR isn't some sort of point buy for NPCs where the disadvantage of "wears out after 2-4 rounds" is worth -6 on CR.

Quote from: Doom;833337Consider the devastation when a party of level 4 characters meets a level 5 wizard, with no special abilities.

Kind of a cherry-picked example; the party is at the top of the first tier of play and the wizard is in the second tier. So the party is just short of doubling their attack abilities (cantrips increase damage and non-casters mosty get extra attack), getting 3rd level spells for some casters, +3 proficiency and enough hit points with minimal CON bonus to still be up after a missed save versus fireball. And fireball is probably the worst case: so much damage, so much area, so much range.

For true caster supremacy, go back to OD&D: 3rd level magic-user can probably TPK most 2nd level parties (probably started invisible; sleep, 2d6 creatures of 2nd level); the only defense was initiative or having a dwarf or hobbit (save as 4 levels higher). A lucky 1st level magic-user could possibly take out a 3rd level party.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;833408Here are the things that can, and actually did, prevent the wizard from casting fireball.

• Command (1st level Cleric spell)
• Silence (2nd level Cleric spell)
• Counterspell (3rd level Wizard spell)
• Sleep (1st level Wizard spell, cast as a second level spell in my particular case)
• A 5th level Rogue with Assasinate

From actual play experience, our third to fourth level party at Lance Rock, with obvious evidence of someone casting Animate Dead, proceeded cautiously expecting that there could be a wizard with fireball (bat familiar scouting, rogue hidden at some distance, party spread out) and could possibly have weathered the two fireball TPK (my third level hill dwarf already has 30 HP), although I expected that at least one 3rd level spell slot would be gone from refreshing control of the zombies. And at the last Expeditions, we had a party of seven: 2 tieflings, 3 dragon born (although only two breathed fire), my hill dwarf and a human wizard (I cast so much healing to keep that guy from dying; he went to 0 at least three times). In the past, we've also used illusions to draw area attacks (from dragon breath and mages).

So, my mage slaying feat is spreading out. And stealth.

My two mage slaying feats are spreading out and stealth. And hit points.

Among my mage slaying feats are spreading out, stealth, hit points, fire resistance and illusion.

Quote from: Doom;833527Uh, no. I've just been playing and DMing the game with a number of skilled players, so it becomes ever more obvious just how overwhelming the spellcasting can be.

Maybe you and your players are not so skilled, if there's so much clumping up for repeated fireballing.

Quote from: Opaopajr;833755My recommendation, don't play Adventure League (current expeditions are being written poorly, so little loss there now) and houserule your game with interrupt-able casting. Yes, I share your complaint here. Fighters looked scary at first, and then we got a chance to see what spells can really do later. If GMs don't starve out player resources by making Long Rests harder to get, there goes the game. Starve out the novas and reintroduce the 'martial counterspell'.

(Hey, Adventure League is not that bad.) The problem with no casting at all in melee is that parties don't tend to be big enough to always keep the wizard protected, and we don't get to hire NPC bodyguards. Consider a lesser approach: spells that don't target the caster require a spell slot of one level higher (but cantrips are still cantrips; the combat ones with attack rolls already are at disadvantage). A significant penalty for being in melee, but not completely unable to act.

Quote from: Doom;834012Weird. In my games we use a grid so the mage really isn't going to fireball himself under any reasonable circumstance.

If he wants to hit the characters who are within 5 feet, he'll probably have to take opportunity attacks to move away and maybe cut it really close; the latter is only reasonable if he's marked out distances in advance (in 6 seconds in an unfamiliar place, can you identify a point that's exactly 22.5 feet away? Or is the grid actually painted on the floor in the game world?).

QuoteYou must be playing on pretty huge maps. Looking through Rise of Tiamat, the first dungeon (ice dragon lair) doesn't have a single room that isn't completely covered by Fireball, except for the final room, which does have one crack where a player might stand. The second dungeon (mummy tomb) doesn't have a single room that isn't completely covered by Fireball. The third dungeon (green dragon lair) has one room that isn't completely covered by Fireball, again with just barely enough space for 2 players. The fourth dungeon has two rooms out of two dozen, but the players would have to run to all four corners. All these maps have places a mage could stand where he wouldn't be surrounded, including 5' corridors.

The first and third map have 1 square = 15 feet, and the second has 1 square = 10 feet.

QuoteWell, I cited an actual published adventure. Can you cite one where more than half the rooms grant the ability for the party to not sit within a 20' radius sphere?

The Rise of Tiamat, with a DM who actually reads the scale on each map.

Quote from: Opaopajr;835789That wipes out all pt. buy 4th lvls but a Hill Dwarf Barbarian with max pt. buy CON. (12+(7x3) +4x(+3CON +1 race))= 49 HP.

A 4th level human variant Barbarian with the Tough feat and 16 CON at first level, and who increases CON to 18 at 4th level, would have 57 HPs.

Quote from: rawma;837482For true caster supremacy, go back to OD&D: 3rd level magic-user can probably TPK most 2nd level parties (probably started invisible; sleep, 2d6 creatures of 2nd level); the only defense was initiative or having a dwarf or hobbit (save as 4 levels higher).

You count that as giving +4 hit dice for the purpose of Sleep spells? Or you give everyone a save vs spell to not get Sleeped?

In Classic D&D AFAICT a Sleep spell takes out 2d8 hit dice, no saves, no resistance. IMC I give Elves 90% Resistance to Sleep & Charm as per 1e AD&D.

Sleep is one of those weird changes in this edition (similarly how Color Spray has been neutered to 1 round). Coup de Grace rules existed about sleeping subjects for AD&D 2e and D&D 3e. IIRC, similar rules for slumbering opponents were present in 0D&D, 1e, and 4e. 5e Sleep, though solid, is nowhere the lethality of old due to the spells own rules on how to be shaken out of it and the Unconscious condition (lack of Coup de Grace) rules.

Played yesterday. Decided to get out of my fighter/rogue comfort zone. Ended up making a 5th level halfling sorcerer draconic bloodline who was a criminal enforcer. His "enforcement" includes a lot of single target damage.  What I realized after finally getting all the info down--dude will never use the daggers he carries. Casters have little use for weapons. Took way too long to make and grok this guy, as I happened to get the "tactical" spellcaster with all the meta magic add ons and spell points. Not sure how much I'll like it, but if I don't it's likely because I so seldom play casters of any kind.

Beyond that, I'm finding I really don't care for easy, near-ubiquitous Magic. I like it rare and dangerous. This means I'll likely run a completely different fantasy system next time I reboot a campaign. Barbarians of Lemuria it is!

Quote from: rawma;837482From actual play experience, our third to fourth level party at Lance Rock, with obvious evidence of someone casting Animate Dead, proceeded cautiously expecting that there could be a wizard with fireball (bat familiar scouting, rogue hidden at some distance, party spread out) and could possibly have weathered the two fireball TPK (my third level hill dwarf already has 30 HP), although I expected that at least one 3rd level spell slot would be gone from refreshing control of the zombies. And at the last Expeditions, we had a party of seven: 2 tieflings, 3 dragon born (although only two breathed fire), my hill dwarf and a human wizard (I cast so much healing to keep that guy from dying; he went to 0 at least three times). In the past, we've also used illusions to draw area attacks (from dragon breath and mages).

So, my mage slaying feat is spreading out. And stealth.

My two mage slaying feats are spreading out and stealth. And hit points.

Among my mage slaying feats are spreading out, stealth, hit points, fire resistance and illusion.

You counter with your example of mage slaying featy tactics at one particular spot.
Talk about Kind of a cherry-picked example  :rolleyes:

Quote from: Opaopajr;837487Sleep is one of those weird changes in this edition (similarly how Color Spray has been neutered to 1 round). Coup de Grace rules existed about sleeping subjects for AD&D 2e and D&D 3e. IIRC, similar rules for slumbering opponents were present in 0D&D, 1e, and 4e. 5e Sleep, though solid, is nowhere the lethality of old due to the spells own rules on how to be shaken out of it and the Unconscious condition (lack of Coup de Grace) rules.

Coup de Grace was in the playtest. Target had to be unconcious. Attacker had advantage to hit.  And if it did it was an automatic crit. And if the target was at 0 HP then it was an instant kill.

Seems like they removed that in 5e though and rolled it into the basic being attacked at 0HP rules.

Quote from: cranebump;837497Beyond that, I'm finding I really don't care for easy, near-ubiquitous Magic. I like it rare and dangerous. This means I'll likely run a completely different fantasy system next time I reboot a campaign. Barbarians of Lemuria it is!

Pretty much since their introduction in Dragon Magazine Cantrips have been a thorn in the side once they officially appeared in Unearthed Arcana. 2e dropped them (Well aside from the 1st level spell Cantrip.) Later editions brought them back and even more powerful.

Quote from: Omega;837532Pretty much since their introduction in Dragon Magazine Cantrips have been a thorn in the side once they officially appeared in Unearthed Arcana. 2e dropped them (Well aside from the 1st level spell Cantrip.) Later editions brought them back and even more powerful.

True. I'm not sure the reasoning behind that, save that it feels like no one believes any longer that playing a caster means accepting some limitations. I realize there are plenty of limits to #/actual spells you can cast in 5E. But cantripping means you're NEVER out.

Of course, I don't generally run casters. If I did, I *guess* I might get miffed about the whole "out of spells, I'm useless" thing. I think, though, if you consider the Wiz the "educated" member of the party, their contributions skill-wise, would be immense, particularly if they're the acknowledged "Lore Master" of the party. We've been running, on and off, a BFRPG campaign. Since it's basically no sills, I've been completely free as a DM to get away "roll for" and simply say, "In your scholarly studies, you ran across...." etc. Same with other classes--the cleric recognizes the dead cultist's tattoo as similar to two obscure faiths (but which one IS it, actually? [players investigate]). The warrior recognizes the monument and remembers the legends surrounding the battle that took place here (and the curse associated with it) and so on.

Of course, you can play any version of D&D this way.

Quote from: cranebump;837539Of course, I don't generally run casters. If I did, I *guess* I might get miffed about the whole "out of spells, I'm useless" thing. I think, though, if you consider the Wiz the "educated" member of the party, their contributions skill-wise, would be immense, particularly if they're the acknowledged "Lore Master" of the party.

I play mostly wizard types. I run out of spells then theres still my darts or staff to poke or wack things with. Or better yet I (hopefully still) have my trusty fighter friend to poke or wack things for me. Early on when I was first playing magic-users I'd have the fighters specifically tell me not to waste my spells early on and to save them for later emergencies. Work as a group. Pick your targets when you can.

Quote from: Sommerjon;833577Truthfully?  Not a whole helluvalot.
If you are wanting some real world logic with that description.  Not enough oxygen to ignite the room.  The fireball doesn't last long enough to ignite the room/contents.


:rolleyes:

Seems to me the necessary time depends in part on the energy density of the fireball. I'm pretty sure a fraction of a second at ground zero of an h-bomb tends to different results than the same time exposed to a kitchen match's flame.

Quote from: S'mon;837485You count that as giving +4 hit dice for the purpose of Sleep spells? Or you give everyone a save vs spell to not get Sleeped?

In Classic D&D AFAICT a Sleep spell takes out 2d8 hit dice, no saves, no resistance. IMC I give Elves 90% Resistance to Sleep & Charm as per 1e AD&D.

Hmm, I see the interpretation that it's only actual saving throws and not things where level determines susceptibility, although I never played with any group that took it that way. And for my example of old school caster supremacy it just makes the magic-user more likely to TPK.

The interpretation we used was no saving throw for sleep, but we treated the Nth level dwarf or hobbit as (N+4)th level versus magic. (You could view it as a different saving throw table with "No" in the column for 1st to 4th level and "Yes" in the column for 5th level and above, or your (non-random) saving throw equals 10+your level and you need a "15" versus sleep -- like passive perception scores.)

Further, our house rule was that the caster chose a level to attempt to affect and rolled the corresponding dice, so if you chose 2nd level you got 2d6 creatures up to 2+1 hit dice but no 3rd level and up) - this spares the DM nasty computation/judgement when there are multiple levels of enemy to be slept, and gives a potentially challenging decision to the player.

OD&D Men & Magic says it affects 2-16 1st level types, 2-12 2nd level types, 1-6 3rd level types and 1 4th level type. It doesn't really say what "sleep" means (no action but broken when a hostile creature approaches, or only at first damage attack, or out until woken or many turns if undisturbed? We used the latter and coup de grace) and it even includes the quotes around the word ('determine which "sleep" by random selection').

Quote from: cranebump;837497Ended up making a 5th level halfling sorcerer draconic bloodline who was a criminal enforcer. His "enforcement" includes a lot of single target damage.  What I realized after finally getting all the info down--dude will never use the daggers he carries.

My draconic bloodline sorcerer uses his daggers in melee, because his attack cantrip Fire Bolt would have disadvantage if an enemy is that close (and he has a good DEX). I should probably add a short-range saving-throw-based attack cantrip at the next opportunity.

Quote from: Sommerjon;837503You counter with your example of mage slaying featy tactics at one particular spot.
Talk about Kind of a cherry-picked example  :rolleyes:

I said cherry picking because it was 5th level wizard (just gotten two fireballs) versus 4th level characters (just short of all the increases that come with fifth level: extra attack, extra cantrip damage, 3rd level spells especially counterspell, and so on). Doom wanted to argue that, generally, spell casters blow everyone out of the water but chose a hypothetical that was heavily biased his way.

My example is the only one I can offer from actual play experience (where an enemy mage was expected to have fireball); you can call it "selection bias" (I might not have posted anything if I had had a different experience) but it's not cherry picking. My example is fairly representative of my experience, although some dungeons might force a party closer together. His statement was universal (caster supremacy throughout 5e!) and mine was not (there exists [STRIKE]a sheep in Scotland that is black on one side[/STRIKE] a set of tactics by which a <=4th level party has a good chance against the two-fireball TPK). Those are the tactics we use, pretty consistently (well, not the illusion one, and the fire resistance one is more by chance - we don't try to recruit a Tiefling if we don't have one); sometimes a melee character is farther away than we would like, if attack comes from an unexpected direction, but mostly it works out well.

It's possible that as I play higher levels I will agree more with Doom on 5e casters, but right now I think there's less caster supremacy than in some of the earlier editions.  A lot hinges on the frequency of long rests, as Opaopajr has told us and likely will again.

Quote from: rawma;837574Hmm, I see the interpretation that it's only actual saving throws and not things where level determines susceptibility, although I never played with any group that took it that way. And for my example of old school caster supremacy it just makes the magic-user more likely to TPK.

The interpretation we used was no saving throw for sleep, but we treated the Nth level dwarf or hobbit as (N+4)th level versus magic.

Interesting - in Classic BX-BECM they just rolled the dwarf/hobbit improved saves into their charts, no "save at +4 Levels", so there's no basis for giving them any resistance to Sleep.

Quote from: rawma;837581I said cherry picking because it was 5th level wizard (just gotten two fireballs) versus 4th level characters (just short of all the increases that come with fifth level: extra attack, extra cantrip damage, 3rd level spells especially counterspell, and so on). Doom wanted to argue that, generally, spell casters blow everyone out of the water but chose a hypothetical that was heavily biased his way.

Not cherry-picking.  
A CR3 arcane spellcaster in 5e is 5th lvl.
There is these 2 levels of uncertainty for groups if a DM uses them.  How different would this be if the DM decides to allow the NPCs to have the PC side of the class as well, Spell points.  Bam-Bam 2 fireballs one round.