Quote from: Doom;835501Fascinating, what on earth did you need the level 1 spell slots for?

Feather Fall. At low levels even a simple pit trap missed can be fatal. In 5e Feather Fall is a reaction spell.

The wizard and sorcerer in the group I am GMing for have not used Mage Armor either. The Sorcerer never picked it up. No idea why. And the Wizard has it. But reserves for Sleep spell.

Quote from: Omega;835497Was in the middle of a ritual to summon a succubus: Boy is he mad you guys spoiled his fun. Remember to loot his spell book!

People have invaded my tower, seems like a good time to start a ritual.

Quote from: Omega;835497Working in his lab: Why the hell would he deathtrap his own lab? He probably wouldn't want any minions poking around in there either. Remember to loot the level 5 fireball scroll he was working on.

No minions allowed!  Not even if we are being attacked.  I am working on my new biscuit recipe and shall not be disturbed!

Quote from: Omega;835497Having a nice quiet dinner: Being appropriately paranoid he wouldn't have anyone within a quarter mile when he eats. Remember to loot the Periapt of Proof against Poison off him.

What is those sounds I keep hearing?  I am supposed to be having a nice quiet diner.  Oh well it must be nothing.

Quote from: Omega;835497Enjoying a soothing bubble bath: Because even stark naked any spellcaster is still armed and dangerous. Remember to loot the Decanter of Endless Water.

Stay away minions! I am having bath time.  You deal with the problems.  Don't you dare get any blood or fluids on my shag carpets either, stupid minions.

Quote from: Omega;835497Just got done banging a succubus: See bubble bath above for details. Remember to loot the... er... nevermind.

As the blood slowly pools under the door, from all of the minions peeping a sneak through the keyhole, completely unawares that they have been systematically slaughtered by the murderhobos.

Quote from: Omega;835497You killed all his minions and defeated all his traps: He is cornered and this is it. Probably has nothing on him other than his spell focus. Jerk.

Because that's what the modules says.



Like I said before;
Stupid.

Quote from: Omega;835504Feather Fall. At low levels even a simple pit trap missed can be fatal. In 5e Feather Fall is a reaction spell.

The wizard and sorcerer in the group I am GMing for have not used Mage Armor either. The Sorcerer never picked it up. No idea why. And the Wizard has it. But reserves for Sleep spell.

But we're past level 3, so not low levels...and most every low level monster hits for more than a 10' deep pit anyway.  Were there lots of 50' deep pits in every dungeon? If so, why not do some scouting? Was your wizard doing all the scouting ahead? Do you know about arcane recovery? Do you know the wizard can have both memorized and prepared for use? If you were down to your last spell slot, it seems like the party would just take a short rest and you could get the slot back anyway...

That's part of what makes Mage Armor so awesome, mages basically get it for free, and it doesn't really cost a slot, unless you're in a situation where you never take a short rest, ever (and that's usually at pretty high level, where you have tons of slots anyway).

There's alot of spells where WotC really didn't think the duration through. Wizard Eye, for example, lets you get the map of most dungeons (an hour really is a long time...), and ritual casting of Water Breathing lasts 24 hours, so I don't imagine there are many drownings in DnD5e land.

Quote from: Sommerjon;835505Like I said before;
Stupid.

Just like every human being.  Hubris, ego, stupidity, whatever you ever want to call it, villains are not Ultimate Marvel Reed Richards or The Bat-God that manage to plan for every single contingency.

If you have your villains able to counter the plans of the PC's every single time, you might find players not trusting you as a DM.  Doesn't mean they won't play in your games, they just won't trust you to 'play fair'.

Personally, removing every chance the players have to surprise a Wizard is dull and boring, and frankly, not a game I'd ever want to be a part of.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;835399Unfortunately for that tactic, in 5e Silence is only targetable on an area, not on objects.

Still, Silence and Grapple (or any other speed limiting trick) are quite effective. And even by itself Silence has proven to be valuable in herding casters (e.g. making them step into a self-immolating spot or out of line of sight or just a little closer than they'd like).

Quote from: Doom;835406There's also the issue that you can't cast silence on a copper piece anymore. And even if you use Silence/Grapple, we've got the "only a spellcaster can stop a spellcaster" problem. Of course you were told that before, and most of your other page of text has also been dissected and shown invalid before also. Seriously, ouch, it's not even worth responding to the other things you say, you're just so far removed.

That's right, my mistake. 5e works on points of origin in space and is explicitly about which spells allow object or creature targeting. Silence is not one of them.

Areas of Effect
[...]
A spell's description specifies its area of effect, which typically has one of five different shapes: cone, cube, cylinder, line, or sphere. Every area of effect has
a point of origin, a location from which the spell's energy erupts. The rules for each shape specify how you position its point of origin. Typically, a point of origin is a point in space, but some spells have an area whose origin is a creature or an object.
(D&D 5e Basic .pdf, August 2014. p. 80.)

Silence
2nd-level illusion (ritual)
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 120 feet
Components: V, S
Duration: Concentration, up to 10 minutes
For the duration, no sound can be created within or pass through a 20-foot-radius sphere centered on a point you choose within range. Any creature or object entirely inside the sphere is immune to thunder damage, and creatures are deafened while entirely inside it. Casting a spell that includes a verbal component is impossible there.
(D&D 5e Basic .pdf, August 2014. p. 101.)

See, I can admit my mistakes.

However my other 'page of text' stands. Average HP to average dmg shows those PCs place M in one-shot range, one of many ways that render your initial assertion hyperbolic. Bless really messes with familiar tactics (1d4 to atk & save rolls). And high HP, Death Saves, and Conditions, screw over familiar TPK math.

Quote from: Sommerjon;835505People have invaded my tower, seems like a good time to start a ritual.

 No minions allowed!  Not even if we are being attacked.  I am working on my new biscuit recipe and shall not be disturbed!

 What is those sounds I keep hearing?  I am supposed to be having a nice quiet diner.  Oh well it must be nothing.

 Stay away minions! I am having bath time.  You deal with the problems.  Don't you dare get any blood or fluids on my shag carpets either, stupid minions.

 As the blood slowly pools under the door, from all of the minions peeping a sneak through the keyhole, completely unawares that they have been systematically slaughtered by the murderhobos.

Because that's what the modules says.

Like I said before;
Stupid.

Yes, you are stupid sometimes. Off those meds again?

1: Or how about the ritual was started and the mage didnt know the adventurers were there till they are right there? Or so absorbed in the ritual he never noticed?

2-6: Again. Who said he knows theres an attack. If he is working in his library or banging a demon or whatever does that not imply that golly gee No he does not know there is a raid in progress?

If the adventurers have this guy cornered and alone then that rather implies that he was either somehow unaware they were there. Such as the group being stealthy.

Or the more likely probability that the PCs have slaughtered everything else. There ARE NO MINIONS to back him up. Kinda like how some adventures do go down when the PCs are actually trying not to raise the alarm and are quietly taking out groups one by one until they find the guy in charge. Or totally bypassing the minions to get right to the point before anyone realizes they are there.

Try thinking outside your apparently tiny little box for a change?

Back on topic.

This whole thread de-railment brings up an interesting point good or ill depending on viewpoint. That being that lone characters or NPCs tend to be at a disadvantage, and not the mechanical one, when faced with opponents in numbers. Not sure where the threshold is. For me at least I like the idea that even strong characters may possibly be brought down by a pack of wolves or a group of bullywugs.

Quote from: Doom;835506But we're past level 3, so not low levels...and most every low level monster hits for more than a 10' deep pit anyway.

Early on we ran into a series of pit traps. Some shallow 10 foot deep ones. But several dropped down to the level below. Which was usually a fall of around 30+ feet. So 3d6 damage or more. Put some spikes at the bottom and that is 2d10 more potential damage. At level 5 my wizard had 21 HP I believe.

As for the others mentioned. I have no idea what their reasonings are past that the Sorcerer sure loves his Chromatic Orb, and the Wizard is murder with that damn Sleep spell.

As a player I do not put as much personal focus on a +3 AC bump and being a cookie-cutter loadout to every other cut-n-paste wizard. I might use Mage Armor on a later character. But probably not. In the end though its my call. My style.

Quote from: Omega;835523Early on we ran into a series of pit traps. Some shallow 10 foot deep ones. But several dropped down to the level below. Which was usually a fall of around 30+ feet. So 3d6 damage or more. Put some spikes at the bottom and that is 2d10 more potential damage. At level 5 my wizard had 21 HP I believe.

As for the others mentioned. I have no idea what their reasonings are past that the Sorcerer sure loves his Chromatic Orb, and the Wizard is murder with that damn Sleep spell.

As a player I do not put as much personal focus on a +3 AC bump and being a cookie-cutter loadout to every other cut-n-paste wizard. I might use Mage Armor on a later character. But probably not. In the end though its my call. My style.

Fair enough, and since you call it a "cookie cutter" build you agree that its what (most) every wizard player has. I grant that even when agreeing to something in your own words you will still deny that you've agreed but..your words are your words. The intellectual dishonesty here is pretty clear, as you sure didn't cry about the 2h weapon using and archers using the "cookie cutter" feats that they (almost always) will take (if they're trying to make the most efficient character).

I was just curious if there were any legitimate edge cases where it would make sense (apparently not), and I've certainly seen a player deliberately play his character badly for role-playing considerations before. Kudos! It's clear WotC just assumed that's what most people would do, rather than take the borked choices leading to cookie cutter builds.

You can spare the slot (because if you're party is constantly falling into more than 3, 30' deep spiked pits in a single session without being able to take a rest, you're playing in a ridiculously brutal level 4 game at the bare minimum, assuming, risibly, that you're arguing in good faith) , you just choose not to, which is fair enough.

Quote from: Opaopajr;835519However my other 'page of text' stands. Average HP to average dmg shows those PCs place M in one-shot range, one of many ways that render your initial assertion hyperbolic. Bless really messes with familiar tactics (1d4 to atk & save rolls).

Since you insist on repeating this yet again, I'll explain again, more slowly, why your Warding Bond/Bless maneuver  is a terrible tactic against a Fireball affecting the whole party. I've already explained the others as well before, but this one is so cosmically bad (and so well demonstrates my point about how easy it is to lose characters in this example, that with days of attempts it's still a struggle to come up with something).

Let's start from the beginning:


You assert that, and I am quoting you here,

QuoteWarding Bond (1 h, no conc) — often with simultaneous Bless (conc 1 minute) —alone destroys the Fireball example with its DEX saves and damage. Any party investigating a hostile area would have at least Warding Bond on, almost assuredly both if they are "accidentally running into" admage. IME Bless sends the team into 10 rounds of hyper-aggro rush.

So, you claim this strategy destroys the fireball example. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that Doom the Hopeless, and Op The Amazing Cleric are walking in the dungeon. They've been adventuring, and Op is down to 23 hits points from his max of 27--he doesn't want to waste a healing spell to bring him up a measly 4 points. Op says "I know we're getting hit with a Fireball in 72 seconds, and I have a brilliant plan! Warding Bond, and Bless will destroy the Fireball attack! I know it!"

Doom says "That is a foolish plan. Mathematically, you won't be preventing enough damage to matter, and you'll likely get yourself killed because you take all the damage you prevent. You're better off using a healing spell to give yourself more hit points."

Op says "No, I'm right, and I'll just keep repeating myself no matter what explanations are provided."

Realizing that Op is invulnerable to input, Doom stops trying to explain.



Now, let's pretend Op decides Doom's mathematics and logic are inferior to repetition. Having spent six seconds in discussion, Op now casts the two spells in question to take advantage of his psychic premonition. and let's assume the damage from the Fireball is 32 points (to really emphasize how badly this can go).

First, a quick calculation: with no spells up, and both saves failed, here's the damage these two characters take:

Doom: 32 points
Op: 32 points

Result: both knocked to zero, possibly (if unlikely) dead...but we've established around a 40% chance the rest of the party might save them, assuming they use the best possible tactics we could come up with over the course of days of planning.

With Warding Bond up, here's the damage if both fail the save:

Doom: 16 points
Op: 48 points

Result: Op is quite and very dead, and has wasted two spells (both end when Op goes to 0 hit points). Please note the total party damage (64) is the same as before, and this is true regardless of how the saves are made: Warding Bond is irrelevant for preventing damage, and can easily get the cleric killed. Yes, there are cases where it matters, but not against AoE spells.


"But what about Bless! Those saving throw bonuses really matter!" says Op as his spirit goes to the afterlife.

Bless is a great spell, but realize it only affects (outside of unusual edge cases, where it's less effective) 12.5% of all die rolls (I rather expect I'll have to explain this as well). For two saving throws, it's not a "sure thing to work" spell by any measure. I'll be looking at just saves/no saves anyway, so not a factor for the rest of the discussion in any event:

So, both fails is bad, let's take a look at other possibilities:

Let's see what happens if Doom saves, but Op doesn't:

Doom: 8 points.
Op: 40 points.

Result: Doom is fine, Op is still dead, two spells wasted. Op again goes to the afterlife insisting it was a great strategy.

Let's see what happens if Doom fails, but Op saves:

Doom: 16 points

Op: 32 points.

Result: Doom is fine, but Op is down. Both spells wasted (well, Doom is saved by the spell, but he'll still go down to the second Fireball if it goes off, and Op will still be dead, and going to afterlife still insisting his tactic destroyed the Fireball...). Note that like the previous two examples, this isn't noticeable better than if no spells were cast at all.

Let's see what happens if both save:

Doom: 8 points
Op: 24 points

Result: Doom fine, but Op is down. Two spells wasted if so, and even if Op isn't down, he'll need to roll a DC 24 concentration check to keep Bless up (this is unlikely)...in the unlikely event the second Fireball goes off, Op will likely die.

So, you're "destroys the Fireball" example in reality really just destroys two rather important healing spells your cleric could have cast instead, regardless of outcome of the saves. Only if both characters save is it not a disaster (although still a possible disaster), and do note: if both spells weren't cast, the party would be better off, as the party would have more healing spells afterwards.

Now I can go over your other tactics in similar detail, but I don't imagine explanations there will do any good. I predict you'll again disregard rational discussion, repeat the tactic is quite good in your experience (or something similar) and probably toss in Bless is more effective than mathematics says it is in this example, as well.

But, I at least tried.

Quote from: Omega;835498

Quote from: Doom;835022Tell you what if a poster in good faith says "yeah, my level 3+ wizard never casts mage armor, he just can't spare the spell slot" I'll buy this as at least remotely possible.

Been there, aint cast that. Next.
Irrelevant to my current Warlock. But was the case for the wizard before that.

Did you notice how quickly "if a poster in good faith says..." turned into an interrogation so he could turn his concession backhanded with the old " yeah, I guess it's true a retard might make that choice" gambit.

There's at least one other 1st spell slot you'll need to hold in reserve. One for Expeditious Retreat or Jump for when the goalposts make a run for it.

Quote from: Doom;835550Fair enough, and since you call it a "cookie cutter" build you agree that its what (most) every wizard player has...

Nice try to bring back the harping. But sorry. No. You fail again. I dont agree to that at all. Its what people tout on paper and on forum. But in actual play? If they cant think for themselves then there are likeky problems more than spell loadout going on. All it shows is that some players see only the 13 AC and nothing else. Same as they might see a high DEX as only more defense.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;835557Did you notice how quickly "if a poster in good faith says..." turned into an interrogation so he could turn his concession backhanded with the old " yeah, I guess it's true a retard might make that choice" gambit.

There's at least one other 1st spell slot you'll need to hold in reserve. One for Expeditious Retreat or Jump for when the goalposts make a run for it.

It wasnt even a concession in this case. He shot it down as a lie right out the gate.

QuoteI was just curious if there were any legitimate edge cases where it would make sense (apparently not)

The trick here to his screed against casters is that there are no goalposts and nothing anyone says has the remotest chance unless they agree with his blind idiot god harping.

Speaking of Expedious Retreat. I was a little vexed that I cannot combine the spell with the Charger feat for more shield bashing. Expedious Retreats Dash uses your bonus, while chargers only activates on an action Dash. Oh well. Such is fate.

We're obviously going down the rabbit hole.

Now the Fireball is 32 dmg, cleric is previously damaged 4 HP, down to 23 HP (:idunno: and thus had +1 CON? 4th Cleric unbuilt is 8 +15 = 23 HP, that should be 19 if subtracting 4 HP. If you're using DM/MM Priest, that's 5th lvl, does have +1 CON, but is readjusted from 5d8+5 HP to 4d8+4, and thus 22 HP), there's only two PCs now (?), and both fail DEX saves. Anything else you'd like to add to the white room arena while we're here?

PC death has always been on table, this is not new or worrisome. This is D&D, the game with Raise Dead. As long as TPK is mitigated, there's always a chance.

Warding Bond sings in formation and I readily admitted Shipyard's example is bad formation, extremely so for combat ready exploration. That said my clerics have in actual play survived Fireballs with Warding Bond on because the team's composition worked even better with it. In that white room situation, that cleric still has a fair chance to ensure the party survives the averages, especially if there's +HP (CON or race).

Fireball averages 28 dmg. If both Warding Bond targets fail that's 28+14=42 ave. dmg. PC 4th lvl cleric with no CON is 23 HP and -- if not damaged previously :rolleyes: -- thus 46 dmg to Instant Death. At +1 CON that's 27 HP, 54 dmg Instant Death; +2 CON, 31 HP, 62 dmg Instant Death, +3 CON (Pt Buy cap), 35 HP, 70 dmg Instant Death (Hill Dwarf can push that +1 HP to 39 HP, 78 dmg Instant Death).

That's before targeting the (logically assumed) high DEX of the Rogue (or Barbarian), who gets another 1d4+1 their DEX save. Let alone the cleric, plus one PC, who also gets 1d4 to their DEX save. It's a practical risk because the likelihood of reducing dmg through resistance and outright saves cripples the average of the two Fireball strategy as it buys time. A non-TPK party has a chance to Raise Dead, a TPK'ed party does not.

Is Instant Death on the table? Of course, it's always been, from the very beginning. It is possible to roll max (8d6) 48 dmg and have everyone fail their save. That wipes out all pt. buy 4th lvls but a Hill Dwarf Barbarian with max pt. buy CON. (12+(7x3) +4x(+3CON +1 race))= 49 HP. (It would super-wipe out all Warding Bond clerics, except for the max CON Hill Dwarf, at 72 dmg (48+24)! But Warding Bond and Bless would help ensure against the worst case scenario. The remaining party would have a chance depending on how many healing potions are on the Rogue/Barbarian. )

That's why we don't bother going down the rabbit hole into white room arenas. We work with averages for calculating risk. Want to ensure party mitigation of TPK risks, buff, bloat HP, and hedge AC/saves. After that there's too many variables between PC builds and situational context.

Wow, I *nailed* it. That...amazing. Good luck, dude.

As a courtesy to Op and Om, if you two really want further assistance, we can continue this via PM.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;835516If you have your villains able to counter the plans of the PC's every single time, you might find players not trusting you as a DM.  Doesn't mean they won't play in your games, they just won't trust you to 'play fair'.

I don't.

Quote from: Christopher Brady;835516Personally, removing every chance the players have to surprise a Wizard is dull and boring, and frankly, not a game I'd ever want to be a part of.

I don't.

Quote from: Omega;835520Yes, you are stupid sometimes. Off those meds again?

Was never on them.  Perhaps that is the difference between us.  I don't play around with buffoonery.