Quote from: Shipyard Locked;834996It's... it's Shipyard...

(Heh, just kidding, I got this name from an online random word generator )

Oh my goodness! I'm sorry! Heh, oops! :eek:

Quote from: Opaopajr;834973You're not defining why M, the mage, has AC 19. Besides Shield, which is +5 AC, how is M getting AC 14? Because the second you say Mage Armor, then we open the can of worms of "spells before battle." And if you give me those two casters, Cleric and Wizard, and allow spells before battle, you know that's game, set, and match.

Wow, we're really going there? 8 hour duration, ridiculously good effect completely negating the whole "mages don't wear armor" weakness, when you have tons of spells. These protestations are getting pretty shrill.

Tell you what if a poster in good faith says "yeah, my level 3+ wizard never casts mage armor, he just can't spare the spell slot" I'll buy this as at least remotely possible.

QuoteAnd then we'll spill into "gear/feats/race before battle," and so on. You say fireball, I say Tiefling, or Diviner Wizard, or XYZ, et cetera. It's just not a fruitful path.

Oh, absolutely you can cherry pick things that will work perfectly in this white room example. An entire party of Bear totem barbarians will roll this encounter, and most other encounters (being resistant to damage is pretty strong...although I imagine my saying this will cause the peanut gallery to crap themselves with rage with some white room encounter filled with psychic damage monsters). Even better would be an entire party of Moon Druids. I really feel this points out classes that are broken in some sense more than that the spellcasters are so feebly weak.

QuoteLook, I know where you are coming from about spellcasters. I agreed with you on the points about hard to counter their first turn, especially once they get the initiative drop on you. But now we're approaching White Room Arena wankery.

Absolutely, the wankery of some folks here is ridiculous. I'm using parties with characters that have hit points, in dungeons with walls and corridors. Then comes the wankery of making 8 saving throws in a row...

Quote(And yes, the feats would be using their -5 for +10 dmg,

Actually, I used math to show that's not going to be useful here; I know, it's wankery to use logic here.

Quoteto 'just say no'.)

Agreed. Mathematics shows that it's quite possible to lose two characters by the second round, although it's quite possible the survivors could get lucky and score double crits for max damage, I totally concede.

But having sprained my eyeballs rolling them at now putting the minotaur up as a pinnacle of character-slaughtering power in general. I mean, that's some severe intellectual dishonestly to argue 22 points of damage on a single character is going to kill him, after pages of denial that 28 points of damage on every character won't kill anyone.

I'm totally ready to let this rest on mathematics.

Quote from: Doom;835022Tell you what if a poster in good faith says "yeah, my level 3+ wizard never casts mage armor, he just can't spare the spell slot" I'll buy this as at least remotely possible.

The Sorcerer in my group doesn't have the Mage Armor spell.  He runs around with an AC of 11.

Quote from: Doom;835022Agreed. Mathematics shows that it's quite possible to lose two characters by the second round, although it's quite possible the survivors could get lucky and score double crits for max damage, I totally concede.

I find that white room example to be really silly.  

One of the great benefit of a mage is range, why in the hell would he be in such an inclosed space for?

Quote from: Doom;835022Absolutely, the wankery of some folks here is ridiculous. I'm using parties with characters that have hit points, in dungeons with walls and corridors.

Jeez, maybe we should all cool it here. :eek:

I sent you some Warhammer Quest stuff basically free of charge didn't I Doom? I may have gotten a little testy, and for that I apologize, but it may be going a bit far to call me a wanker.

Quote from: Sommerjon;835028One of the great benefit of a mage is range, why in the hell would he be in such an inclosed space for?

When he's caught unawares in his throne room/arcane lab/ torture chamber/etc.  Pretty typical D&D scenario.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;835030When he's caught unawares in his throne room/arcane lab/ torture chamber/etc.  Pretty typical D&D scenario.

Why would he be caught unawares in his throne room/arcane lab/ torture chamber/etc.?  Was he blasting some heavy metal music?

Quote from: Sommerjon;835034Why would he be caught unawares in his throne room/arcane lab/ torture chamber/etc.?  Was he blasting some heavy metal music?

You run the kind of campaign where top assassins attack the PCs in their sleep, every orc in the warrens converges on the party at the first logical sign of trouble, and there are no silly secret entrances to the Fortress of Blood, don't you?

There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but in such a rigorously realistic simulation setup CR isn't really important, is it?

Often, in a game, the mage is caught in a non-PC-deathtrap room because it's a useful trope to many.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;835041You run the kind of campaign where top assassins attack the PCs in their sleep, every orc in the warrens converges on the party at the first logical sign of trouble, and there are no silly secret entrances to the Fortress of Blood, don't you?

There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but in such a rigorously realistic simulation setup CR isn't really important, is it?

Often, in a game, the mage is caught in a non-PC-deathtrap room because it's a useful trope to many.

Isn't that why players always do watches for?

Why wouldn't orcs or any other creature converge on something invading their territory?

A secret entrance is only secret if one maybe two know about it?

According to the Wizards forum, GM has final rule but players can ask all the time, no limit on what is advantage/disadvantage. Hence why I don't like the mechanic.

http://community.wizards.com/forum/rules-questions/threads/4106756?page=126

Quote from: Sommerjon;835034Why would he be caught unawares in his throne room/arcane lab/ torture chamber/etc.?  Was he blasting some heavy metal music?

You've never been caught unawares?  Ever?

Villains are 'human' too.  They make mistakes, get overconfident or are otherwise flawed.  That's what makes them interesting, even if they're meant to die like dogs.

Quote from: Doom;834968You've got the rules wrong here a bit though: only the first attack is reckless (p49, phb), and you don't get two attacks a round as a bear totem barbarian in any event.

He doesn't take two attacks: he takes one attack with advantage. The percentages I list are for one of those two attack rolls to hit.

QuoteI'm not even seeing Action Surge on the rogue, so he only gets one attack (making your "at least one attack" line confusing) and sneak attack damage also only applies once a round (p96).

He's two-weapon fighting, of course. If he hits with one of the two attacks, he applies sneak attack. Even if he's "built for ranged combat," he's presumably not dumb enough to engage a wizard with no bodyguards in ranged combat. Any rogue can pull a couple daggers or shortswords and engage in melee, giving him two chances per round to apply sneak attack. He suffers no penalty for doing so: he doesn't need any special abilities or feats, and he makes both attacks with his full melee attack bonus.

ETA: Ah! he needs a bonus action to Dash, which means he wouldn't be able to take two attacks Round 1. So as long as M runs over into the northwest corner where the rogue has to Dash to reach him, the rogue can take only one attack (so 40% to hit). I'll give my barbarian Shield Master and drop his damage a couple so he can knock M down with a bonus action and give the rogue advantage (back to 64%).

QuoteSo the mage isn't going down on one round of survivor attacks...that second fireball is going off.

No, as I said, even after beating all four characters on initiative, there's still a 41% chance he goes down in Round 1 if the survivors act as I described.

QuoteQuestion: how does the bear totem keep the two downed party members alive? I still feel 2 characters dead by round 1.5 if anything at all goes wrong is a bit much for an "easy" encounter, but I concede this is just my opinion.

The rules keep them alive. They go to 0 hp on Round 1, and it takes at least three rounds to die assuming they fail all their death saves. Once M is dead, he can stabilize one per round automatically with a healer's kit.

QuoteI again maintain: are you ABSOLUTELY POSITIVE the level 5 wizard represents just as minimal risk to the party as a minotaur? Both are CR 3, but one doesn't rely on particular race/class/type combos in any way to avoid multiple deaths, and one takes very little (5' hallway, the ability to kite the party, minor hazards in the way) to put some real harm on the party.

I think CR is at best a guideline. Like I said in my first response, big AoEs are swingy, and how difficult they are in play is often determined by initiative. In a real game situation, of course, M is going to beat two of the PCs, maybe, and lose to two (probably the same barbarian and rogue in your example). Then there's the same chance we've been discussing that he dies before he gets one spell off. In that case, the PCs have resolved the encounter at the cost of one rage, in terms of expendable resources.

Warding Bond (1 h, no conc) — often with simultaneous Bless (conc 1 minute) —alone destroys the Fireball example with its DEX saves and damage. Any party investigating a hostile area would have at least Warding Bond on, almost assuredly both if they are "accidentally running into" a mage. IME Bless sends the team into 10 rounds of hyper-aggro rush.

Saw Starter Set manor house mage and entourage collapse utterly in the face of a Bless blitz alone. Saw similar happen in Hoard of the Dragon Queen Warding +Bless blitz (& Spirit Guardians... {shudder}) with tier 2 PCs in the cultists' trophy/tapestry manor, and in the flying castle versus red wizards, etc. You can destroy disgusting amounts of things with normal pre-battle buffs.

Quote from: Doom;835022Absolutely, the wankery of some folks here is ridiculous. I'm using parties with characters that have hit points, in dungeons with walls and corridors. Then comes the wankery of making 8 saving throws in a row...[...]

Actually, I used math to show that's not going to be useful here; I know, it's wankery to use logic here. [...]

Agreed. Mathematics shows that it's quite possible to lose two characters by the second round, although it's quite possible the survivors could get lucky and score double crits for max damage, I totally concede.[...]

But having sprained my eyeballs rolling them at now putting the minotaur up as a pinnacle of character-slaughtering power in general. I mean, that's some severe intellectual dishonestly to argue 22 points of damage on a single character is going to kill him, after pages of denial that 28 points of damage on every character won't kill anyone.

I'm totally ready to let this rest on mathematics.

You used a Mage that has an assumed +1 AC from DEX and Mage Armor on, and +X CON for unknown HP buff.

I already showed you the math of a standard PC 5th lvl mage's HP without char-build extras, 6 HP at 1st +4 HP (half hit die plus one) for the next 4 lvls= 6+16= 22 HP.

Point buy Barbarian caps at 16-17 STR, thus standard +5 atk and +3 dmg that almost everyone chooses. Add 2d6 great weapon average of 7. Add Great Weapon Master feat +10 dmg. Add Barbarian Rage dmg (STR melee only) that starts at +2 dmg from 1st lvl. 3+7+10+2= 22 HP.

22 HP - 22 HP. That's a one-shot average.

From average to average, that's the HP math. I don't need your 18-20 STR. I don't need your critical hit. What I don't get is your AC 14 base (for +5 Shield to get to AC 19), and greater than 22 HP numbers for that "standard mage." Where are you getting your attribute numbers? What sort of build is this? Is this a home game NPC build?

If you take the standard NPC Mage, as provided by DM/MM Basic .pdf, HotDQ .pdf, and MM, you get a mage who runs off of a d8. But you round everything down, unless explicitly told otherwise.

So the average they are getting from a 9th lvl 9d8 mage is 9x4.5=40.5, round down to 40 HP. A 5th lvl of the same standard MM. build would be 5x4.5=22.5, round down to 22 HP.

Here's the DM/MM Basic .pdf on a standard 9th Mage, btw:

Mage
Medium humanoid (any race), any alignment
Armor Class 12 (15 with mage armor), Hit Points 40 (9d8), Speed 30 ft.

STR 9 (−1); DEX 14 (+2); CON 11 (+0); INT 17 (+3); WIS 12 (+1); CHA 11 (+0)

Saving Throws Int +6, Wis +4
Skills Arcana +6, History +6
Senses passive Perception 11
Languages any four languages
Challenge 6 (2,300 XP)

Spellcasting. The mage is a 9th-level spellcaster. Its spellcasting ability is Intelligence (spell save DC 14, +6 to hit with spell attacks). The mage has the following wizard spells prepared:
Senses passive Perception 10
Cantrips (at will): fire bolt, light, mage hand, prestidigitation Languages any one language (usually Common)
1st level (4 slots): detect magic, mage armor, magic missile, shield
2nd level (3 slots): misty step, suggestion
3rd level (3 slots): counterspell, fireball, fly
4th level (3 slots): greater invisibility, ice storm 5th level (1 slot): cone of cold
Actions
Dagger. Melee or Ranged Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft. or range 20/60 ft., one target. Hit: 4 (1d4 + 2) piercing damage.
Mages spend their lives in the study and practice of magic.

(DM/MM Basic .pdf, November 2014. p. 55.) (Also referenced in print MM and HotDQ .pdf.)

I don't understand why your math is not working according to basic citation and core rules? What are you changing or missing?

Quote from: Omega;834923How is anyone who has played with the official modules found them?

I have been DMing the much derided Tyrrany of Dragons and actually enjoyed it quite a bit. At first it seemed a little odd. But once I had a good handle on the cult, things started to click and it really rolled along well.

I found Lost Mines of Phandelver to be a great into with examples of how to use skills and add to creatures (like the Ash Zombies) along with a decent amount of material for a starter kit. My group ended up completing all of the content although a lot of NPC and setting names were changed to fit my sandbox world instead of FR.

I picked up Princes of the Apocalypse and it looks to be similar, with lots of branches for how to complete the content and multiple side quests. I'm not planning on running through it as written, but I'll be snagging some pieces here and there while using the rest for inspiration.

Quote from: Opaopajr;835098Point buy Barbarian caps at 16-17 STR, thus standard +5 atk and +3 dmg that almost everyone chooses. Add 2d6 great weapon average of 7. Add Great Weapon Master feat +10 dmg. Add Barbarian Rage dmg (STR melee only) that starts at +2 dmg from 1st lvl. 3+7+10+2= 22 HP.

22 HP - 22 HP. That's a one-shot average.

Ah, there's your problem right there: you're assuming a 100% chance to hit. My experience with the game is most characters don't hit AC 19 with 100% probability.

QuoteI don't understand why your math is not working according to basic citation and core rules? What are you changing or missing?

It's  a mathematical concept called "expected value". If you on average hit for 10 points of damage, and hit 50% of the time, then you expect to deal 5 damage a round. Granted, in a single round battle, expectation is pretty iffy, but when the chance to hit is 50% or so, it's good enough for a sketch (and if you're under 50%, like we are here because you're taking a -5 to hit, expectation is generous in a one round fight). I totally grant this particular barbarian could theoretically one shot the wizard, but he doesn't expect (there's that word again) to do so.

Yes, given the barbarian hits, he expects to kill the mage...but the example you cited gives only a 10% chance of doing so...that's somewhat less than reliable, in my opinion (and, apparently, only my opinion).

Quote from: Greg Benage;835089ETA: Ah! he needs a bonus action to Dash, which means he wouldn't be able to take two attacks Round 1. So as long as M runs over into the northwest corner where the rogue has to Dash to reach him, the rogue can take only one attack (so 40% to hit). I'll give my barbarian Shield Master and drop his damage a couple so he can knock M down with a bonus action and give the rogue advantage (back to 64%).

If you shield bash the mage down (I'll certainly grant that), you reduced the expected damage of the barbarian, while increasing the expected damage of the rogue attack. Bit of a wash, I'm afraid, and considering the kind of damage a 2h barbarian can deal, you'll have to show me the math on how that actually improves your case.

QuoteNo, as I said, even after beating all four characters on initiative, there's still a 41% chance he goes down in Round 1 if the survivors act as I described.

And the DM doesn't catch you on bad rules, and you swap around tactics to optimize when errors are pointed out.

QuoteThe rules keep them alive. They go to 0 hp on Round 1, and it takes at least three rounds to die assuming they fail all their death saves. Once M is dead, he can stabilize one per round automatically with a healer's kit.

Absolutely, but when you're at 0 hp, surviving an 8d6 fireball is rather iffy. You've conceded only a 41% chance of stopping that second fireball which has an excellent chance to kill the two downed players. That's less than reliable for an "easy" encounter.

Quote. In that case, the PCs have resolved the encounter at the cost of one rage, in terms of expendable resources.

Absolutely, it's quite possible the mage will get double critted in the first round and not do a point of damage, I've never disputed this. But, it's also quite possible the mage will kill two players on the second round, and that's in a worst-case-for-the-mage white room scenario. In more credible scenarios where the mage doesn't put himself in a close quarters dead-end room, or has a few hazards, or can simply run and gun his spells, it's nuts. And don't forget, sometimes characters take damage in other parts of the dungeon, making them that much more susceptible to that first fireball (although, as you've shown, it's the second that's the real problem)...in real scenarios, this is a dangerous encounter.

Totem barbarian (and Moon Druid) are both pretty funny in this scenario. They can literally not attack (if enraged/in animal form, and assume the enraged attack is something minor to demonstrate the point), and the mage can empty out his damage-dealing spells, all of them, and still have a chance of surviving (yes, I know the mage would switch to Phantasmal Force or something against high hp characters, but keeping it simple highlights the problem). I find this more an indication of a problem with these classes/archetypes, that they can be "AFK" while the rest of the party is literally going down in flames.

It was kind of funny, in the Tiamat campaign, the moon druid character (the only one not to die in the first half dozen adventures) was surrounded by bullywugs for several rounds. I finally just had them collapse, their hearts exploded from exhaustion, because while they could hit repeatedly, there was just no way to get through all the hit points/bonus healing.