Quote from: The Butcher;834155Hate to be That Guy, but has anyone had their fun cockblocked by Caster Supremacy, or are we spherical cowing again?

So far, in our 6th level game, casters have exhibited no supremacy.  Concentration mechanic seems to solve so many issues.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;834174My first (still playing it) campaign character was a Tempest Cleric (a spur of the moment alternative to my original concept), and I had similar visions for him. In the fray, laying down the smite, etc.  Like you, I was underwhelmed by that part of it, although I lay some of that at the feet of my less than average hit points. I intentionally avoided any combat cantrips with the idea that I'd not be a pew-pew-er.  Nothing wrong with a sharp bit of steel and a bow.  I'm not always in the front line, but am there often enough. I've quite enjoyed it despite it not being what I expected.

When my first character (Human Paladin) died and the guy playing the Cleric petered out, I decided to go with a Cleric. Since the Paladin was a somber, penitent Lawful Good type, I had this idea for a Half-Orc Cleric of Thor, a Chaotic Good bruiser and binge-drinker. But I was kind of unsure of a Cleric's ability to survive the front lines, given how close to death my Paladin was several times, so I went with a "laser Cleric" of Mitra.

I kind of regret choosing combat effectiveness over character concept, but I guess I'll have to roll with it now.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;834174My first (still playing it) campaign character was a Tempest Cleric (a spur of the moment alternative to my original concept), and I had similar visions for him. In the fray, laying down the smite, etc.  Like you, I was underwhelmed by that part of it, although I lay some of that at the feet of my less than average hit points. I intentionally avoided any combat cantrips with the idea that I'd not be a pew-pew-er.  Nothing wrong with a sharp bit of steel and a bow.  I'm not always in the front line, but am there often enough. I've quite enjoyed it despite it not being what I expected.

My tempest cleric is level 8 now. I'm only using breastplate and shield to preserve stealthiness (and swimming, in a sea-faring campaign), but that still gives me AC 18. I have Con 16 with Resilient and 67 hit points. With divine strike, 2nd-level spiritual weapon and 3rd-level spirit guardians up, I deal excellent persistent damage for an entire combat (3d8 plus mods to single target, plus 3d8 save for half to everyone within 15 feet of me) but I have no nova ability without blasting spells. I don't see that as a bug, because I also have considerable AoE, control, healing and buffing abilities that the nova guys don't enjoy.

Quote from: The Butcher;834155Hate to be That Guy, but has anyone had their fun cockblocked by Caster Supremacy, or are we spherical cowing again?

*Raises hand*

Quote from: The Butcher;834155Hate to be That Guy, but has anyone had their fun cockblocked by Caster Supremacy, or are we spherical cowing again?

Well, there really isn't caster supremacy in my campaign...because most everyone is a caster. Ok, not everyone, but I had 8 people at my table last night. 1 Fighter, 1 Barbarian, everyone else chucking spells, including 2 wizards.

Good lord, the poor dragon (it's the Tiamat campaign, players are level 9). First trapped in a sphere of force. The monsters finally get through Shield and force a failed concentration check.

Then dragon is banished, auto-fail saving roll (player ability). I counterspelled the Shield just to hit the AC 21 or so wizard to get a failed Concentration check. Then another Banish. Then another Banish, which finally stuck long enough for the other players to mop up. The other wizard is a blaster, did fireball, ice storm, fireball, etc.  Dragon un-Banishes and gets slaughtered.

Concentration does weaken spells...but so many of them, so hard to stop.

The other wizard was also tanking and blasting away fireball, ice storm, repeat, while the monsters scratch away.

Yes, the Fighter and Barbarian were there to pick off the little monsters, and certainly had fun riding their BMXes, so it's all good.

Quote from: Greg Benage;834193My tempest cleric is level 8 now. I'm only using breastplate and shield to preserve stealthiness (and swimming, in a sea-faring campaign), but that still gives me AC 18. I have Con 16 with Resilient and 67 hit points. With divine strike, 2nd-level spiritual weapon and 3rd-level spirit guardians up, I deal excellent persistent damage for an entire combat (3d8 plus mods to single target, plus 3d8 save for half to everyone within 15 feet of me) but I have no nova ability without blasting spells. I don't see that as a bug, because I also have considerable AoE, control, healing and buffing abilities that the nova guys don't enjoy.

You're a couple levels ahead of me, and certainly beefier. I lucked into a +1 breastplate so I've been sitting at AC 19, which has given me a false sense of security at times. I passed over Spiritual Weapon for flavor reasons, but Spirit Guardians is a gold in the fray. I'm in no danger of taking over front line duties from the Barbarian or the Paladin, but a really great part of that team.

Not what I initially had in mind, but plenty of fun to play.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;834084M rolls better initiative than all four level 4 PCs (effectively the players have failed one of the rolls that protect them from circumstances like this). He places his fireball in the hall behind the PCs so there is no chance of it hitting him. That's what the red squares represent.

This is one of the great problems with these types of "duel scenarios".  There are a lot of variables that are usually assumed.

For example, the wizards recognizes the PCs as the sort of threat that makes it worth immediately expending a scare resource (fireball).  The party either loses initiative (4 rolls lost versus 1) or the wizard gets surprise (ambushes are always extra deadly, even if it was a melee type).  The same assumptions that could lead the players to not lead with an alpha strike should apply to many Mages as well.  

But I think about the sorts of characters I have actually played at 4th level, and the actual experience with fireball ambushes, and I'm also not convinced that this would be as bad as suggested.  

At the time of the case I am thinking of, I played a Barbarian.  Unless the Mage has positional advantage, the AC 19 is not much versus a Barbarian (who at 4th level will have 16 or 18 strength, advantage on the Dex check, and Reckless attack).  That is going to be a +5 or +6 to hit (maybe one more) with perhaps another +1 from a magic weapon (I had one at level 4).  Every attack will be reckless (if the wizard is doing a melee attack then that isn't a fireball blasting everyone).  That makes a save likely with Danger Sense (an a +2 to Dex), and a hit (roll twice, at the time I was +7 to hit) versus AC 19 likely.  That character (raging) hit for 1d8 + 7 (that was a RP decision, it could well have been 2d6+7 as I turned down a +1 maul for a longsword with an eagle motif).  That particular character had wolfpack tactics (which didn't work so well much of the time as the other players were a circle of the moon druid, a life cleric and a necromancy wizard).  Bear totem would also have been bad news for the wizard, especially if the intial save with advantage was made.  

With the good saves and around 40 hit points (I had more but that involved a roll of "12" at second level), I was not noticeably slowed by a Flaming Skull. It had more hit points, it dropped the wizard and the cleric with a surprise fireball, and it was shredded by myself and the druid.  It had a lower AC (17 with Shield) but more hit points (40).  It'd have been more optimal for the Druid to have dropped out of animal form and brought the cleric back up, but that wasn't the way the encounter played out.

I mean it was a tough fight, but we were in absolutely no danger of a TPK.  Even if the Druid had been in gnome form, she would still have had a very good chance of being up (and she was often a bear or a tiger).  This was even more common when a warlock with telepathy joined the party later on.  Hitting wouldn't be an issue with wolfpack tactics. Frenzy would have been even worse for the wizard, though, had I gone that way (two attacks at +7 with advantage a round might well finish her off before she gets out a second spell).

At 5th level, where we ended up one session later, the Mage would need to have significant positional advantages to have a chance.  Fast movement means a better control of range is required and the extra attack is going to make it brutal.  

I also recall fighting some wizard who had a glass staff with mage armor and shield galore -- and it was still over in a mob scene of the druid and the barbarian rushing him.  

So these types of encounters seem to have been less deadly in my experience.  And our wizard still has neither dispel magic nor counter-spell, but was a dwarf and so had a surprising amount of hit points (he still dropped from the initial shot due to a failed save).  Maybe we over-optimized characters?  

I admit that adding one or two minions would have made things a LOT more deadly, as the charging of the mage would have been a less obvious tactic.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;834084Ok, I fully concede that doing this could prove me wrong, but I say we take this out of the abstract.

Here's an example of a reasonably ideal circumstance for our hypothetical NPC mage (M):

Reasonably ideal for the PCs.
The NPC Mage?  Is screwed.

Quote from: The Butcher;834155Hate to be That Guy, but has anyone had their fun cockblocked by Caster Supremacy, or are we spherical cowing again?

Seems mostly the cow. Yeah.

The big factor is how the DM an d the players are running things. Like any other game.

Mis-apply even one element like Opaopajr and Doom apparently did and it can skew things a little or a-lot. Or if either side just plain plays casters in some weird way and it all goes right out the window.

Same goes for any other class really. Jan and I sat down and did the math on the Ranger after she was a little bummed that it wasn't outputting as much damage with a bow as she could with a fighter archer. But we discovered that under the right circumstances a ranger can crank out a truly monstrous amount of damage in a single round at around midpoint of the class. 10d8+150 damage total taking into account a 50% hit rate. If the DM set up and allowed that every combat then one might just get the idea that the Ranger is a little overtorqued. The reality is that this sort of situation will not occur at that level of frequency or be sustainable very often.

Quote from: Sommerjon;834219Reasonably ideal for the PCs.
The NPC Mage?  Is screwed.

Assuming those are 5ft squares and some of the PCs get initiative. Then yeah. They can be right there flanking the caster if even just two gets initiative before he casts. Assuming hes level 5 then hed have the Doom example of 2 fireballs to cast. If he doesnt have shaped spell then hes in potentially a lot of  trouble. With it he can point blank fireball them.

Even if they all scatter east and west to the walls he can still blanket them all in the blast radius unless 1 and 2 move north some and might just get outside the range. If 3 and 4 back up some then it gets even more interesting.

Which is a great example of how tactics and/or lack thereof can swing a battle far more than the dice ever could.

Quote from: Omega;834227Mis-apply even one element like Opaopajr and Doom apparently did

I see I'm being misrepresented here again. What, pray tell, element, did I misapply?

This thread has explored many facets of 5E and some of it has been quite interesting to read.
However the game balance thing doesn't bother me generally, as RPGs are not as simple as a list of combat stats.
RPG characters are so much more than that.
 
One thing I did find somewhat concerning though (if it's true), is grappling doesn't disrupt casting a spell.
That DOES seem pretty stupid to me.
If it comes up and it will eventually, I'll force some sort of concentration check vs a grapple roll or something to be able to get the spell off.
Isn't there some requirement to have a hand or something free to cast a spell?
There's the VSM requirement for spells, so it kind of infers that.
Perhaps I'll say something like:
If a Verbal component is required, then you can grapple to stick your hand or something over the mouth.
If a Material component (or spell focus) is required, again, a contested Grapple roll should be possible to stop the caster getting at the material components or focus.
If a Somatic component is required, then restraining arms via a grapple roll should be possible.

It's an easy thing to house-rule I think and overall I really like 5E.

Quote from: danskmacabre;834264This thread has explored many facets of 5E and some of it has been quite interesting to read.
However the game balance thing doesn't bother me generally, as RPGs are not as simple as a list of combat stats.
RPG characters are so much more than that.
 
One thing I did find somewhat concerning though (if it's true), is grappling doesn't disrupt casting a spell.
That DOES seem pretty stupid to me.
If it comes up and it will eventually, I'll force some sort of concentration check vs a grapple roll or something to be able to get the spell off.
Isn't there some requirement to have a hand or something free to cast a spell?
There's the VSM requirement for spells, so it kind of infers that.
Perhaps I'll say something like:
If a Verbal component is required, then you can grapple to stick your hand or something over the mouth.
If a Material component (or spell focus) is required, again, a contested Grapple roll should be possible to stop the caster getting at the material components or focus.
If a Somatic component is required, then restraining arms via a grapple roll should be possible.

It's an easy thing to house-rule I think and overall I really like 5E.

Exactly, there really needs to be a bit more that you can do against spellcasting...it's not like spellcasters only get a few spells or something, they get tons, and it's not like spells aren't particularly effective, they'd strong. So...why not have a way to at least *possibly* affect spellcasting.

Quote from: Doom;834273Exactly, there really needs to be a bit more that you can do against spellcasting...it's not like spellcasters only get a few spells or something, they get tons, and it's not like spells aren't particularly effective, they'd strong. So...why not have a way to at least *possibly* affect spellcasting.

Before this subject came up, I assumed there WAS a way to do that in the existing mechanics.
In a way there IS, you just need to expand it a bit.
A lot of spells have VSM Requirements, so as long as you can disable somehow the caster from fulfilling those requirements, then within the framework of the rules, you can stop the caster getting his spell off.

The only thing that's missing is the actual specific mechanic to handle this in the rules.
It seems to be an oversight to me, albeit a really big one.

The grappling rules seem like a way to do that. it's mostly there really, it just needs a bit of descriptive text added. You don't even need to add a new mechanic, just use the Grapple opposed dice roll to remove fulfilling one of the casting requirements as I described earlier.
 
5E is very moddable anyway and WotC seem to encourage the DM to wing it somewhat to reflect stuff that isn't covered, so it's not really a big thing.

I take the view in RPGs anyway that  if it seems like it's possible to do but the rules don't cover it, then the rules take a back seat to common sense.

To clarify a bit better...

A wizard is about to throw a fireball.
It has a VSM requirement.

Verbal: So he has to say stuff (Magical words to activate the spell)

Material: He has  a material component (or spell focus), so he has to grab some bat guano and Sulphur or hold onto his focus.

Somatic: He has to wave his hands about or throw the guano or whatever.

Lets say a fighter is in range to jump the mage and sees the Mage raising arms, chanting, grabbing stuff etc...
Or perhaps he knows he's a Mage and knows (or thinks he knows) the mage needs his arms free or to say stuff or grab stuff to get of a spell, which he assumes he's going to do.

The fighter decides he's going to grapple the mage and restrain his arms..

He assumes this will be enough to stop the spell getting off (It might not, if the spell doesn't have Somatic and Material components).
Normal Grapple test takes place..
If the fighter wins, the Mage's arms are restrained, stopping him doing stuff that requires use of arms.
In this case, he can't cast the fireball, as he needs his arms to get or hold onto the bat guano and Sulphur or hold onto/grab his focus.

The fighter might have chosen to cover his mouth instead or shove his face into the ground, stopping the mage fulfilling the Verbal requirement.
Again, same opposed grapple check, but the fighter is somehow covering the Mage's mouth.

No mechanics have been added. All that's been done here is flesh out the Grapple better and it really makes sense you should be able to do things things with a successful Grapple.