Quote from: Omega;8340741: Definitly no. Casters are down signifigantly from AD&D levels. An AD&D MU had 37 spells at level 20 and a total of 58 at the top end. A 5 e Wizard has 21. Cantrips dont count.

OK, Cantrips don't count. Don't know why, but sure, why not. How about recharged slots, an infinite 1st lvl and 2nd lvl spell (adjustable per 8-hr study), and 2x free 3rd lvl spells for each Short Rest? You can theoretically Short Rest 23 times a day...

Arcane Recovery
You have learned to regain some of your magical energy by studying your spellbook. Once per day when you finish a short rest, you can choose expended spell slots to recover. The spell slots can have a combined level that is equal to or less than half your wizard level (rounded up), and none of the slots can be 6th level or higher.
For example, if you're a 4th-level wizard, you can recover up to two levels worth of spell slots. You can recover either a 2nd-level spell slot or two 1st-level spell slots.

Spell Mastery
At 18th level, you have achieved such mastery over certain spells that you can cast them at will. Choose a 1st-level wizard spell and a 2nd-level wizard spell that are in your spellbook. You can cast those spells at their lowest level without expending a spell slot when you have them prepared. If you want to cast either spell at a higher level, you must expend a spell slot as normal.
By spending 8 hours in study, you can exchange one or both of the spells you chose for different spells of the same levels.

Signature Spells
When you reach 20th level, you gain mastery over two powerful spells and can cast them with little effort. Choose two 3rd-level wizard spells in your spellbook
as your signature spells. You always have these spells prepared, they don't count against the number of spells you have prepared, and you can cast each of them once at 3rd level without expending a spell slot. When you do so, you can't do so again until you finish a short or long rest.
If you want to cast either spell at a higher level, you must expend a spell slot as normal.

(D&D 5e Basic .pdf, August 2014. p. 31.)

Quote from: Omega;834074

Quote from: Doom;8340121) spellcasters can objectively cast more spells, at any given level, between long rests than in previous editions?

1: Definitly no. Casters are down signifigantly from AD&D levels. An AD&D MU had 37 spells at level 20 and a total of 58 at the top end. A 5 e Wizard has 21. Cantrips dont count.

In addition, even if we *did* count cantrips, it seems like 4E had casters at an infinite number of combat castings per long rest with at-wills.  If you disallow cantrips & at-wills in the calculation, 4E allows for your full boat of encounter powers essentially every 6 minutes, which takes all 1st level casters to at least 240 non-cantrip/non-at-will castings per long rest. If you take the optional tweak to 5E down to 5 minute short rests, then warlocks and wizards can approach or beat this at 1st level, but the other casters are still way behind I think.  EDIT: Wizards don't approach that at all, actually, right?

At any rate, this point seems murky at best to me.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;834087Awesome, I love stuff like this. But what I mean about everybody going at once, don't the players still have to actually tell me IRL their turn actions one at a time?

So Player A says what he's going to do, then Player B, then Player C. Even if all of this is resolved at the same time, the players would know what the others are doing and thus can game it out anyway right? There would be no danger of Player B running into Player A because he already knows what Player A is doing before he declares his own move.

And since the entire side is going at once, but has to tell me their actions in order, how do you decide which order they go in? Is it the same every time? Random?

Depends on your table desires and tools.

For Simultaneous:
With laptops, there's no problem at all with modern programs, except for other app distraction.

With paper, it can be secret notes. You can handle this many ways. You could have them Theater of the Mind it, scribbling quick description. You can also print up copies of the dungeon and do all sorts of tricks: a) pencil in movement and then hand it in and compare, b) place it in a plastic sleeve protector and cover with dry erase, revealing as they go along, etc.

With cards & dice, such as D&D 5e Magic Cards, and player-made general actions written on extra card stock. Movement done by d6s as 5' squares leading away from a d4 as their PC. Work behind a screen and reveal, a la Robo Rally.

For Sequencing:

Anything really. Clockwise, counterclockwise, alternating clock and counterclockwise, birthdays, eye color, favoritism, etc.

If you worry about secrecy, have them whisper it to you, or pass notes.

If they are colluding a little too long in deciding their action declaration, egg timer them. Anyone after the timer means they froze up and lost their turn.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;834084So, how might this scenario play out?
What likely actions could the PCs take? Where will they go?

Are the PCs 4th level? Does M have 23 hit points?

It's reasonable to assume the cleric and wizard are down before getting to act. The fighter has 22 hit points left. He uses second wind as a bonus action for 10 hp, putting him at 32. He moves into melee and attacks, using precision attack when appropriate. With 18 Str, he's at +6 to hit, so he needs a 13 or better to hit AC 19. With an average roll on precision attack, he hits on 8-9. He deals [8.33+4=12.33] damage on a hit. If he did not need precision attack, he uses distracting strike. This deals 4.5 more damage total (16.83) and the rogue will have advantage on his attack.

Now the fighter attacks again, using Action Surge. He uses precision attack again if needed, and trip attack if he doesn't. If the fighter hits with both attacks, M is dead. If he hits with one attack, M has 6-11 hp remaining. The rogue will have advantage if either distracting strike or trip attack was successful.

Next the rogue attacks with his main hand at +6 to hit, dealing [3.5+4=7.5] damage. If he hits, he uses sneak attack for 7 damage (if needed). He then uses his bonus action to attack with his off-hand at +6 to hit, dealing 3.5 damage. If he hits  with the second and missed with the first attack, he uses sneak attack for 7 damage (if needed).

The rogue doesn't have precision attack, so he needs a 13 to hit the shielded M. He may have advantage, but even if he doesn't, he's at 64% to hit at least once. If he does, M is dead.

TL;DR If the fighter and rogue each land one attack, M is dead Round 1.

QuoteWhere will M move to, and how many opportunity attacks will he take on the way?
How will he position his next fireball so as to hit EVERY post-move PC and not himself?

How will he deal with disabling or negating effects like healing (spells / potions), blindness, silence, command, darkness, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, sleep, menacing attack, rally, etc.

In the unlikely event he survives, M presumably surrenders on Round 2. He's below half his already meager hit points (unless the fighter and rogue missed with all four attacks) and would need to expose himself to opportunity attacks from both the fighter and the rogue to move away and cast another fireball. If he tries, any one hit drops him.

Too many variables left open from Shipyard's example for me to say. The PC attributes, skills, spells, and gear are not even fleshed out. However a lone potion of healing (the only readily available magic item in AL), often on the highest HP character (because, duh), throws this in the players' favor. Once the cleric "undo button" gets up and the party spreads out, with one or two blocking the door, it's all over for M.

Also, the fireball is incorrect. It goes around corners. By spilling out into the room that means that distance is within fireball's radius. Therefore it should fill the adjacent squares on the sides.

Quote from: Opaopajr;834117Once the cleric "undo button" gets up and the party spreads out, with one or two blocking the door, it's all over for M.

If the cleric is one of the two characters to save, there's not much chance at all for M to survive the first round.

Say the cleric and rogue save. That means the fighter, cleric and rogue are all up. The fighter and rogue act as specified in my previous post. The cleric casts healing word on the wizard, moves into melee, and attacks. The wizard gets up and casts a spell to finish M off, if necessary.

Quote from: Opaopajr;834088OK, Cantrips don't count.

Arcane Recovery

Spell Mastery

Signature Spells

1: because the combat ones are functionally not much different from a ranged weapon. Heavy crossbow. Though a fast one to be sure.

2: Um... Arcane recovery is once per day.

3: Spell mastery is at 18th level, late game.

4: Level 20. Endgame.

Yes, M has 23 hit points.

The PCs have whatever features, abilities, and gear that seems most typical for their class and level. The intent was to let others fiddle with them like dials on a simulator. I didn't really have time to lay it all out yesterday.

You're right about the fireball radius, there should be a little bit of spillover. Again, I was in a hurry.

Quote from: Omega;8341271: because the combat ones are functionally not much different from a ranged weapon. Heavy crossbow. Though a fast one to be sure.

2: Um... Arcane recovery is once per day.

3: Spell mastery is at 18th level, late game.

4: Level 20. Endgame.

@ Cantrips:
Yeah, I am just going to outright disagree. Cantrips are incredibly useful. The utility ones are grotesque for exploration and social.

And the majority of combat ones either circumvent normal rules for ranged weapons (i.e. Sacred Flame works off of DEX save -- and ignores Cover!), or drop on a status/environment effect. They further ignore ammo, loading, and long range Disadv (besting most thrown weapons). Their damage throughput is not the same as a maximized ranged weapon, but they are "functionally different" from a "heavy crossbow."

As for the other comments, I'm going to pull your own words on you for attempting to change the goalposts:

Quote from: Omega;8340741: Definitly no. Casters are down signifigantly from AD&D levels. An AD&D MU had 37 spells at level 20 and a total of 58 at the top end. A 5 e Wizard {at lvl 20} has 21. Cantrips dont count.

(It's 22 by the way. 5e Wizard lvl 20 slot readout is: cantrips 5; 4/3/3/3/3/2/2/1/1.)

Arcane Recovery:
Yeah it's once per day. That's 2x 5th lvl or up to 10x 1st lvl. That brings 5e lvl 20 wizard from 22 slots up to 24~32 slots.

Spell Mastery & Signature Spells:
I am going to ignore your goalpost shift and reiterate your comparison of AD&D lvl 20 wizard to D&D 5e lvl 20 wizard. Infinite 1st lvl and 2nd lvl spell. Atop two free specific 3rd lvl spells, which may be recharged up to 23 times a day.

And I am going to end this discussion definitively with by the book reading of spell memorization times. 5e blows AD&D out of the water how fast it is. Read for yourself:

Preparing and Casting Spells
[...]
You can change your list of prepared spells when
you finish a long rest. Preparing a new list of wizard
spells requires time spent studying your spellbook and
memorizing the incantations and gestures you must
make to cast the spell: at least 1 minute per spell level
for each spell on your list.

Which is a tenth of the time from AD&D (10 minutes/spell lvl) from sheer raw mechanics. And it is further reduced because you only need to memorize spells Prepared -- you don't memorize for each and every spell slot. At lvl 20, an INT 20 wizard only needs 25 minutes for the minimum list of 25 1st lvl spells, (equal to your Intelligence modifier + your wizard level (minimum of one spell)), which is less than the time to memorize a 3rd lvl AD&D spell. Reasonable maximum would be 116 minutes (9, 8, 7, 7, 6, 6, 5, 5, 5, 4, 4, 4, 3, 3, 3, 2, 2, 2, 1, 1, 1, 1 = 89. That's only 22 Prepped spells. Add 3x more 9th lvl spells Prepped = +27 min. 89 +27 = 116 minutes).

(Absolute max of 25 Prepped only 9th lvl spells, which is dysfunctional given only one 9th lvl slot, is 225 minutes, or 3 3/4 hours. And I don't think there's even 25 9th lvl spells out yet. But yeah, there that is, and not even 3x greater than memorizing one AD&D 9th lvl slot at 90 minutes.)

Oh, and that's only if you want to Prepare a new list. You are perfectly able to keep your old one and skip merrily along into adventure. In that respect there can be no comparison.

Objectively Doom is 100% right by his comment that 5e casters "objectively cast more spells, at any given level, between long rests than in previous editions," as long as we stick to TSR D&D. As for WotC... Fourth edition is an obvious exception, and 3rd had infinite cantrips and orisons parity (and likely prestige class craziness that I can't be bothered to double check).

Hey, I like 5e, but those comments are correct. They are a bit begging the question, though. I do see some 5e caster strengths over old TSR D&D, but I wouldn't say that leaves old AD&D casters like chopped liver. So, though those comments are objectively correct, I still do not agree with the initial assumption.

Keep struggling there. You'll get it eventually.

Hate to be That Guy, but has anyone had their fun cockblocked by Caster Supremacy, or are we spherical cowing again?

Quote from: The Butcher;834155Hate to be That Guy, but has anyone had their fun cockblocked by Caster Supremacy, or are we spherical cowing again?

Quote from: Doom;833737As far as druids, I acknowledge some theory-crafting as the party druid just made level 5 (and is quitting after seeing what wizards can do, and already seen how nuts it was in PF), but his plan was just to start conjuring animals. 8 wolves are pretty strong with pack tactics, although admittedly not much chance they'd survive a fireball. Later, he was going to conjure swarms of beings that explode when they die (mephits, eg), but it's hard to tell how dominating that would be at higher levels.

Granted, that's not as amazing as Wizard Eye (auto-map all dungeons) and polymorph (free t-rex!), but those are level 4, where D&D normally starts to get kinda broken.

Apparently at least one of Doom's players rage quit their Druid because of Other Caster Supremacy.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;834164Apparently at least one of Doom's players rage quit their Druid because of Other Caster Supremacy.

Fair enough. If the player wanted to blow shit up he or she did roll the wrong class.

I can relate, actually. I wish Clerics had slightly better survivability (even with the Tempest and War domains) so I could duke it out in melee, like TSR D&D and even 3e, instead of hanging out in the back and pew-pewing those pesky orcs. If anything I wanted my Cleric to be less like a Wizard. But apparently Paladins have the close-range infidel-smiter niche cornered.

Generally speaking, I'm opposed to the idea of multiclassing, but maybe it's an answer to my conundrum? Fighter/Cleric or Barbarian/Cleric?

Quote from: The Butcher;834166Fair enough. If the player wanted to blow shit up he or she did roll the wrong class.

I can relate, actually. I wish Clerics had slightly better survivability (even with the Tempest and War domains) so I could duke it out in melee, like TSR D&D and even 3e, instead of hanging out in the back and pew-pewing those pesky orcs. If anything I wanted my Cleric to be less like a Wizard. But apparently Paladins have the close-range infidel-smiter niche cornered.

Generally speaking, I'm opposed to the idea of multiclassing, but maybe it's an answer to my conundrum? Fighter/Cleric or Barbarian/Cleric?

My first (still playing it) campaign character was a Tempest Cleric (a spur of the moment alternative to my original concept), and I had similar visions for him. In the fray, laying down the smite, etc.  Like you, I was underwhelmed by that part of it, although I lay some of that at the feet of my less than average hit points. I intentionally avoided any combat cantrips with the idea that I'd not be a pew-pew-er.  Nothing wrong with a sharp bit of steel and a bow.  I'm not always in the front line, but am there often enough. I've quite enjoyed it despite it not being what I expected.

Still really liking 5e.  Running two games now, one of which is a public encounters session at a local game store, which I sometimes play in as well.