I was very surprised to see what had become the prevailing gamer culture in 3e.

In MY games (play or run), the GM shapes a game to be a certain thing. Input is often requested, but ultimately it's the GM's responsibility to select what is included, excluded, or changed.

The idea that the GM's rights to vet material is limited, and that people should have the right to use any book they bought... I still find that utterly absurd, but apparently a lot of folks feel that way.

Which explains why I like splatbooks and others feel less thrilled about it, and, come to think of it, explains why I saw OGL as an unvarnished positive and others saw it as horrible.

Quote from: Will;807100I was very surprised to see what had become the prevailing gamer culture in 3e.

In MY games (play or run), the GM shapes a game to be a certain thing. Input is often requested, but ultimately it's the GM's responsibility to select what is included, excluded, or changed.

The idea that the GM's rights to vet material is limited, and that people should have the right to use any book they bought... I still find that utterly absurd, but apparently a lot of folks feel that way.

Which explains why I like splatbooks and others feel less thrilled about it, and, come to think of it, explains why I saw OGL as an unvarnished positive and others saw it as horrible.

My biggest gripe about splatbooks isn't their content, rather it's the opportunity cost in creating them.  Every page of that they turn out is one page fewer they have put into GM support. I have this gut feeling that GM support (settings, modules, etc.) going forward will provide longevity for this edition, but splatbooks make the most money.  I don't have any evidence to back that up though.

Quote from: Armchair Gamer;807096While overly acerbic and dismissive, you do have a point. 5E seems like it's quite good at being D&D for D&D's sake, but does it have much to offer beyond that? It's not the 'what we've all been doing for years' of 2E, the 'bring the game up to date' of 3E, or the 'bold new direction' of 4E.

   I'm not saying it's a bad game--I haven't purchased the books or played it, so I'm relying on impressions from Basic and secondhand reports--but its primary purpose appears to be as an entry point for new players and a solid baseline or lingua franca for the 'core D&D experience'. For many, that's enough. It seems primarily focused for those who love D&D for its own sake, which appears to encompass many of the posters here. For those of us who are more on the fringe of the game (Ravenloft was pretty much the only thing keeping me in D&D's orbit through most of the 2E and 3E era, and one of the things that convinced me to give 4E a second look), it doesn't seem to have anything to hook us.

5e is the balance of all the things that I liked about previews editions of D&D, without all the things I didn't.

Its easier than AD&D, its got the customization of 3.x, it has a strong clean unified mechanic like 4e.

But it doesn't have the weird clutter of AD&D, it doesn't have the crazy minmax trap options and powergaming abuse of 3.x, it doesn't have the gameyness of 4e.

I like 5e because it strikes a balance of all the things I want out of D&D. Not because its "new", and definitely not because its D&D. Hell, I had stopped playing D&D for a long time because of how much 3.x turned me off, and how much the lack of a unified mechanic in AD&D had soured me.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;8071165e is the balance of all the things that I liked about previews editions of D&D, without all the things I didn't.

Its easier than AD&D, its got the customization of 3.x, it has a strong clean unified mechanic like 4e.

But it doesn't have the weird clutter of AD&D, it doesn't have the crazy minmax trap options and powergaming abuse of 3.x, it doesn't have the gameyness of 4e.

I like 5e because it strikes a balance of all the things I want out of D&D. Not because its "new", and definitely not because its D&D. Hell, I had stopped playing D&D for a long time because of how much 3.x turned me off, and how much the lack of a unified mechanic in AD&D had soured me.

  To clarify, when I say 'love D&D for its own sake', I don't mean attachment to the name or the brand, but rather that ambiance and collection of elements, tropes, and other factors that make the game (as least as presented in its 'glory days') something unique and different from just 'fantasy'--the spells as discrete units, the armor-wearing, mace-wielding clerics, the Tolkien races with some quirks, the color-coded dragons, and all the other ambiance. 5E appears to do all that very well, and takes the sort of 'common D&D experience' to a very polished, harmonious whole.

  Or I could be completely wrong about all this. But I do note that ever since they took over the game, WotC has been very big about getting to that core, unified experience. I think this time, they may have it--but D&D has been such a leviathan in this hobby that there are a few who preferred things that the game did sort of obliquely or by accident, so the polishing and refocusing has lost some of those.

I think game discussions would be a lot more productive if people spent less time trying to uncover the real motivation behind people's views and just discuss games.

Not just here, but everywhere, you get things like 'you like 4e because you feel angered by OGL' or 'the real reason you like BD&D is that you are frightened of change' or whatever.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;8071165e is the balance of all the things that I liked about previews editions of D&D, without all the things I didn't.

Its easier than AD&D, its got the customization of 3.x, it has a strong clean unified mechanic like 4e.

But it doesn't have the weird clutter of AD&D, it doesn't have the crazy minmax trap options and powergaming abuse of 3.x, it doesn't have the gameyness of 4e.

I like 5e because it strikes a balance of all the things I want out of D&D. Not because its "new", and definitely not because its D&D. Hell, I had stopped playing D&D for a long time because of how much 3.x turned me off, and how much the lack of a unified mechanic in AD&D had soured me.

I was gonna type a reply, but EN pretty much did it for me.

This.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;807124I was gonna type a reply, but EN pretty much did it for me.

This.

Yeah, I was DONE with D&D years ago, though I loved some settings (Ravenloft being one)...but 5e brought me back in a huge way, and pretty much for the reasons Emperor Norton described.

I stand corrected. Probably a result of extrapolating too much from my own tastes and general ambivalence/disinterest in 5E.

Quote from: Old One Eye;807052Failing to see how that is any different than a DM saying that PCs can only be humans and no magic users because that is how her world works.

If the DM has strong opinions and doesn't mind losing some players, then this is true. A player who has sunk money into a book they can't use at all can be a bit grumpy about it, and that this is different from just having preferences about race or class. I concede that DMs are probably scarcer than players and so can more easily enforce such decisions. But not always.

Quote from: Natty Bodak;807108I have this gut feeling that GM support (settings, modules, etc.) going forward will provide longevity for this edition, but splatbooks make the most money.  I don't have any evidence to back that up though.

I suspect that GM support sells to GMs; splatbooks might sell to several players for each GM, so that would support your gut, at least in my opinion.

Quote from: Wood Elf;804230My only issue is the same issue I have with most rpg's. Many of the damn weapon pictures are so ridiculous. I get it, it's fantasy, but I like a little more realism in my fantasy stuff. It's my own little idiosyncrasy.

It just drives me nuts. But I can ignore it easily enough.

I completely agree. Some of those "artists" deserve the electric chair.