Quote from: TristramEvans;800394I've seen tons & tons of references to Lovecraft's monsters, but veryvery few examples of Lovecraftian horror in RPGs. Even Call of Cthulhu adventures are almost never actually "Lovecraftian".

There's a lot of form over substance out there, I agree. There are gems out there, however, dealing with the subtext, the "why this shit should be scary beyond grisly death." The terror, as misterguignol puts it, if you will. (I notice a lot of the better ones focus less on the how from the antagonist side. Uncertainty works better, I think.) Oddly for as much as Ravenloft gets teased, it too (at least the old box sets) tried to tackle the idea of subtext as best it could, touching upon the romanticized friction between highs and lows.

There's a tortured aesthetic underlying it all, and far too often the material available seems pleased to gloss over it. Maybe there's a challenge in published adventures nailing down and transmitting values to GMs as a component to run mood. Perhaps it sacrifices the open-endedness of published material, or strays too close to formulaic railroad, when that idea is trying to be communicated.

It all reminds me of someone's lament (I forget the name now) that 'one of the hardest feats' in literature is a 'good ghost story'. There's an ephemeral something that is as delicate as a soufflé. Miss it, everyone knows it as it collapses upon itself; hit it, everyone swoons haunted by its majesty.

Quote from: misterguignol;799604The Gothic is largely defined by conventions. More so that sculpting the system with house rules, I think you can make a game feel more "Gothic" by fostering the right sort of atmosphere by including at least some of the following in the game:

• an imperiled heroine (whose life and/or virginity is often at stake)
• a "Catholic" setting where religion is a major temporal and spiritual power
• a focus on terror (psychological fear) or horror (disgust) or both as affect
• a long-buried secret from the past that can no longer be repressed
• monstrosity (whether human or inhuman) or villainy (often a male figure of power, but you can flip the script here)
• violence and sexuality that passes beyond the border of the socially acceptable (sexual monstrosity)
• doubling (doppelgangers, mistaken identities, etc.)
• a decrepit castle, monastery, fortress, dungeon, or other medieval structure as part of the setting
• the Inquisition (misuse of religious authority)
• specters, ghosts, or phantasmal visions (remnants of the past that cannot be repressed)
• mysterious veiled women
• fragmentary narratives that slowly come to light (investigation, mystery-adventure, etc.)
• enclosure, premature burial, imprisonment

This is so weird, but as you talk about in Tales of the Grotesque and Dungeonesque about Gothic being more mode than genre it got me to think about a recent... an OK, so-so movie I recently watched:

Space Station 76

Part of it was parody of the 1970s, not just in technology and sci-fi assumptions, but in half-hearted lampooning of 1970s aesthetics and ideals in an almost-serious manner. Its self-reflective criticism in what looks like a screwball comedy served as a total depressant to the lush setting effort. It touches upon so many of the atmospheric effects you listed, it's bizarre.

It's not great cinema, or at least not from my first impression, but it is absolutely haunting. And looking at that list it really struck home, it might be actual 1970s retro-sci-fi Gothic (produced in the 2010s). It's like mind blowing to even write such a contrasting string of descriptors.

I'm wondering if anyone else saw this film and how weirded out they are by this list and how much it corresponds to that movie.

... and could modern decades (70s, 80s, 90s, etc.) and their artifacts be rendered Gothic for gaming in modern settings.

Quote from: Opaopajr;800399... and could modern decades (70s, 80s, 90s, etc.) and their artifacts be rendered Gothic for gaming in modern settings.

I could see something centered on a huge old corporation, falling into corruption and obsolescence... in a dying urban setting... Usher Corp. (whatever the company produces should remain vague... folks always change the conversation).

The 'catholics' and 'inquisitors' of the setting are the money-minded people, the banks and shadowy investors who are lurking in the wings. Also, the 'efficiency experts'.
The 'terror' comes to the employees (PCs) who are fearful of what might become of them if the company fails or they lose their jobs. The 'horror' comes from what the company asks them to do to avert that fate.

There are buried secrets of the company's past actions that are being dug up by the competition or other adversaries to the company. Constant vigilance is mandatory... but the weight of such dark secrets on the minds of those involved in covering them up grows heavier with each revelation.

Monstrosity and villainy are supplied by other employees and the PCs' bosses. The CEO suffered horrible burns in a fire during his youth. This had led to many ambitious young fellows to burn themselves, carry obvious scars... in an attempt to gain his sympathy.
Violence and sexuality beyond the pale also come from the PCs' fellow employees and their attempts to lessen competition or gain favor (though I'm thinking it should all remain subtle and seldom enter outright combat).

Doubles and dopplegangers might be other employees who seek favor by having plastic surgery to closer resemble the corporate founders (long dead)... the 'Employees of the Month' always seem to look a bit alike. (this from a news story I heard about ballerinas getting plastic surgery to resemble an ex-dancer the ballet director idolized).
Also, sometimes a newly promoted executive will suddenly seem 'not himself'... and will use out of date business jargon for a few weeks... then settle in and seem 'much better'.

The 'castle' is the corporate building itself... huge, looming over the urban wastes surrounding it. As the company fortunes have sunk entire floors have been consolidated... leaving large sections empty. Attempts to rent those spaces have failed... OR... those spaces are rented to various odd start-ups of questionable product that come and go like tumors in the great beast's structure.

There are lots of traditions and legends within the corporate culture. Tall tales and fables of warning. Lots of variations of these... but all seek to implant a healthy fear of upper management... and the janitors.

The ghosts are subtle and generally unseen.

• A certain office that hasn't been assigned to anyone in decades.
• A coffee cart lady who seems to have always been there... never getting older.
• Something weird about that area of the basement where the chief of maintenance died 20yrs ago.
• A large architect's model of the building up on the jr. executive floor that some people claim to have seen lights inside at night when they thought they were alone, working late.

Premature burial/imprisonment comes from disfavoring the bosses and being demoted back to 'the cubes'... or being assigned to some remote 'branch office'.
Being fired is just plain death as far as the PC's place in the game is concerned.

Not sure what to do with the 'mysterious veiled women'... though it has me thinking of executives wives having lots of Botox injections... to where their faces become immobile veils that hide their thoughts and emotions and fear.

So, PCs clamor to prove themselves and move up the ranks... taking on a series of assignments that are obviously leading them down a path of moral decay... towards being successful psychopaths or insane washouts.
There should be some baroque sumptuary laws in the dress code relating to corporate hierarchy... "Congratulations, you managed to kill the vice president of marketing and his homunculus... you can now wear a red tie!" (that might be crossing too close to Paranoia territory).

Quote from: TristramEvans;800360I'm not certain my not being emotionally outraged by something actually impedes my ability to appreciate or enjoy it.

I know not finding something funny impedes my ability to laugh at it.

Quote from: apparition13;800471I know not finding something funny impedes my ability to laugh at it.

Not finding Voltaire's Candide or Swift's Gulliver particularly humorous did not impede my ability to appreciate their social commentary however, nor beauty of prose. Author intention is not the sole judgment of value for a work, let alone an audience.

Quote from: Simlasa;800414I could see something centered on a huge old corporation, falling into corruption and obsolescence... in a dying urban setting... Usher Corp. (whatever the company produces should remain vague... folks always change the conversation).

The 'catholics' and 'inquisitors' of the setting are the money-minded people, the banks and shadowy investors who are lurking in the wings. Also, the 'efficiency experts'.
The 'terror' comes to the employees (PCs) who are fearful of what might become of them if the company fails or they lose their jobs. The 'horror' comes from what the company asks them to do to avert that fate.

There are buried secrets of the company's past actions that are being dug up by the competition or other adversaries to the company. Constant vigilance is mandatory... but the weight of such dark secrets on the minds of those involved in covering them up grows heavier with each revelation.

Monstrosity and villainy are supplied by other employees and the PCs' bosses. The CEO suffered horrible burns in a fire during his youth. This had led to many ambitious young fellows to burn themselves, carry obvious scars... in an attempt to gain his sympathy.
Violence and sexuality beyond the pale also come from the PCs' fellow employees and their attempts to lessen competition or gain favor (though I'm thinking it should all remain subtle and seldom enter outright combat).

Doubles and dopplegangers might be other employees who seek favor by having plastic surgery to closer resemble the corporate founders (long dead)... the 'Employees of the Month' always seem to look a bit alike. (this from a news story I heard about ballerinas getting plastic surgery to resemble an ex-dancer the ballet director idolized).
Also, sometimes a newly promoted executive will suddenly seem 'not himself'... and will use out of date business jargon for a few weeks... then settle in and seem 'much better'.

The 'castle' is the corporate building itself... huge, looming over the urban wastes surrounding it. As the company fortunes have sunk entire floors have been consolidated... leaving large sections empty. Attempts to rent those spaces have failed... OR... those spaces are rented to various odd start-ups of questionable product that come and go like tumors in the great beast's structure.

There are lots of traditions and legends within the corporate culture. Tall tales and fables of warning. Lots of variations of these... but all seek to implant a healthy fear of upper management... and the janitors.

The ghosts are subtle and generally unseen.

• A certain office that hasn't been assigned to anyone in decades.
• A coffee cart lady who seems to have always been there... never getting older.
• Something weird about that area of the basement where the chief of maintenance died 20yrs ago.
• A large architect's model of the building up on the jr. executive floor that some people claim to have seen lights inside at night when they thought they were alone, working late.

Premature burial/imprisonment comes from disfavoring the bosses and being demoted back to 'the cubes'... or being assigned to some remote 'branch office'.
Being fired is just plain death as far as the PC's place in the game is concerned.

Not sure what to do with the 'mysterious veiled women'... though it has me thinking of executives wives having lots of Botox injections... to where their faces become immobile veils that hide their thoughts and emotions and fear.

So, PCs clamor to prove themselves and move up the ranks... taking on a series of assignments that are obviously leading them down a path of moral decay... towards being successful psychopaths or insane washouts.
There should be some baroque sumptuary laws in the dress code relating to corporate hierarchy... "Congratulations, you managed to kill the vice president of marketing and his homunculus... you can now wear a red tie!" (that might be crossing too close to Paranoia territory).

That's great gaming fodder! Perhaps painfully close to home for some, but wonderful material.

I'm gonna dig up my "How to": Gothic Items topic and practice.

I already have in mind 1970s/80s youthful suburban wasteland. Old possessed Speak n Spells, abandoned arcades, infamous roller skates or skateboards. Might be a way to really maximize the mood for games like Little Fears or Changeling the Dreaming or something.

Quote from: TristramEvans;800473Not finding Voltaire's Candide or Swift's Gulliver particularly humorous did not impede my ability to appreciate their social commentary however, nor beauty of prose. Author intention is not the sole judgment of value for a work, let alone an audience.

The purpose of satire isn't humor, it's social commentary. One can appreciate that without ROFL. There's no point to Benny Hill, or for a personal example 'Arrested Development', if you (or in the latter case I) don't find it funny. I'm not the audience for Arrested Development, or Jazz, or Golf, or Horror as a Genre, or 'serious literature', or 'horrible people doing horrible things (GoT, The Wire, Dexter, Breaking Bad, etc., even nBSG). I don't feel bad, or superior, for 'not getting it' where these are concerned. It's just different strokes/different folks.

So if the 'horror' of a horror novel is a lust-crazed monk trying to corrupt a virginal innocent, and you feel about as much horror about that as you do looking at lolcats, you're not the audience. Likewise if your response to Harry Potter is horror at the glorification of satanism, you're not the audience for that.

Quote from: apparition13;800579The purpose of satire isn't humor, it's social commentary. One can appreciate that without ROFL. There's no point to Benny Hill, or for a personal example 'Arrested Development', if you (or in the latter case I) don't find it funny. I'm not the audience for Arrested Development, or Jazz, or Golf, or Horror as a Genre, or 'serious literature', or 'horrible people doing horrible things (GoT, The Wire, Dexter, Breaking Bad, etc., even nBSG). I don't feel bad, or superior, for 'not getting it' where these are concerned. It's just different strokes/different folks.

So if the 'horror' of a horror novel is a lust-crazed monk trying to corrupt a virginal innocent, and you feel about as much horror about that as you do looking at lolcats, you're not the audience. Likewise if your response to Harry Potter is horror at the glorification of satanism, you're not the audience for that.

This conversation has gotten too stupid for me to continue with. Good look deciding for other people what they are the audience for.

Quote from: TristramEvans;800360I'm not certain my not being emotionally outraged by something actually impedes my ability to appreciate or enjoy it.

  Oh, you can certainly appreciate or enjoy it, but you won't be feeling the response the work was intended to evoke by the creator--not due to any flaw in the work or the recipient, but just because there's a certain disconnect there.

   It's like all the talk these days about enjoying things 'ironically', or about people who played OD&D looking for epic swashbuckling fantasy adventure instead of down-and-dirty logistical planning and dungeoncrawling.

Quote from: Simlasa;800414(snip awesome sauce) ...

Excellent stuff!! Considering where I spend the bulk of my day, I think you just made the hairs stand up on the back of my neck...

I found this interesting discussion by different authors about the differences between urban fantasy and gothic horror. They share the same tropes, but there are some differences. Both have angels, demons, vampires, dark magic etc. But gothic horror has a darker mood and more tragic main characters. They stuff they do and witness leaves a mark on them. In urban fantasy the main characters are unaffected by the stuff around them.

Link

I'd want to use something like UA's Madness Meter if I was going for the gothic mood... some measure of growing corruption, moral decay, doom.

I think "Decay" is a major theme of Gothic Horror.  Of the slow breaking down into shambles of things: ancient manors, people's bodies, people's minds, the city, the moral good,etc.

I think it was a major theme of concern in the period Gothic horror was at its peak.

I'm thinking of a modern inversion of Gothic conventions to create a One-Shot/Short Adventure for the coming Halloween. I think I could capture the Gothic mood in a tale involving the fall of a male high school quarterback. Reposting misterguignol's list of popular conventions for convenience:

Quote from: misterguignol;799604The Gothic is largely defined by conventions. More so that sculpting the system with house rules, I think you can make a game feel more "Gothic" by fostering the right sort of atmosphere by including at least some of the following in the game:

• an imperiled heroine (whose life and/or virginity is often at stake)
• a "Catholic" setting where religion is a major temporal and spiritual power
• a focus on terror (psychological fear) or horror (disgust) or both as affect
• a long-buried secret from the past that can no longer be repressed
• monstrosity (whether human or inhuman) or villainy (often a male figure of power, but you can flip the script here)
• violence and sexuality that passes beyond the border of the socially acceptable (sexual monstrosity)
• doubling (doppelgangers, mistaken identities, etc.)
• a decrepit castle, monastery, fortress, dungeon, or other medieval structure as part of the setting
• the Inquisition (misuse of religious authority)
• specters, ghosts, or phantasmal visions (remnants of the past that cannot be repressed)
• mysterious veiled women
• fragmentary narratives that slowly come to light (investigation, mystery-adventure, etc.)
• enclosure, premature burial, imprisonment

The q-back would be the imperiled hero. Maybe older and visiting his glory days.
Evangelical Christianity could be the Catholic stand in, but I am more interested in the 'cult of sports'.
Terror in the form of peaking early in life yet not good enough to go pro.
Terror in the systemic casual brutality that chews up youth's future for sport?
Horror in the overlooked sports injuries and casual rules bending to win.
Horror of encouraged & absolved bullying of those who don't 'dance for the circus'?
Exposé about the sports program's abuses and cover ups.
Perhaps an emasculating female group shutting down the program?
Socially unacceptable violence & sexuality... a lot to choose, from hazing and on.
Decaying High School Football Stadium in Texas as decrepit monument. Suspended program?
Haunted by memories, football helmeted (veiled) phantasmal players?
Imprisoned enclosure in the form of: actual prison for crimes?, inescapable small town?, bleak employment future/ life as prison/peaked at age 17?

Power comes at a great price. Angel from Buffy isn't very gothic, because he only drinks some pig's blood but never pays the price of being a vampire. Darkman, the superhero movie character, is very gothic imo. There has to be something tragic and not a lot of wishfulfillment.

Yes decay is gothic. And so it the absence of good.