So I've been putting together a gothic horror setting. So, obviously I've been thinking about it a lot. I was wondering what you out there think are essential things that it needs? Rules? Setting pieces? Something else? I have my ideas/thoughts, but I'm looking for your opinions/ideas.
I prefer some unified cosmology for the horrors going on... some shared mythology/history... some old event that opened up a doorway to whatever... vs. it just being a completely random collection of whatever monsters/ghosts seem to fit.
That might not be very 'gothic'... and I don't need the setting to wear its rationale on its sleeve. Just some suggestion that there is a reason behind these things will keep my brain quiet, usually.
Then again I suppose it could be an Otranto/Poe-world... without many overtly supernatural events/creatures... but lots of mysteries, subtle curses and malignancies of the mind. A landscape of looming shadows and crumbling estates inhabited by madmen. In which case I'd wonder what/who the PCs were and what they might do except observe... could they, should they, save the House of Usher?
The Gothic is largely defined by conventions. More so that sculpting the system with house rules, I think you can make a game feel more "Gothic" by fostering the right sort of atmosphere by including at least some of the following in the game:
- an imperiled heroine (whose life and/or virginity is often at stake)
- a "Catholic" setting where religion is a major temporal and spiritual power
- a focus on terror (psychological fear) or horror (disgust) or both as affect
- a long-buried secret from the past that can no longer be repressed
- monstrosity (whether human or inhuman) or villainy (often a male figure of power, but you can flip the script here)
- violence and sexuality that passes beyond the border of the socially acceptable (sexual monstrosity)
- doubling (doppelgangers, mistaken identities, etc.)
- a decrepit castle, monastery, fortress, dungeon, or other medieval structure as part of the setting
- the Inquisition (misuse of religious authority)
- specters, ghosts, or phantasmal visions (remnants of the past that cannot be repressed)
- mysterious veiled women
- fragmentary narratives that slowly come to light (investigation, mystery-adventure, etc.)
- enclosure, premature burial, imprisonment
Quote from: misterguignol;799604The Gothic is largely defined by conventions. More so that sculpting the system with house rules, I think you can make a game feel more "Gothic" by fostering the right sort of atmosphere by including at least some of the following in the game:
- an imperiled heroine (whose life and/or virginity is often at stake)
- a "Catholic" setting where religion is a major temporal and spiritual power
- a focus on terror (psychological fear) or horror (disgust) or both as affect
- a long-buried secret from the past that can no longer be repressed
- monstrosity (whether human or inhuman) or villainy (often a male figure of power, but you can flip the script here)
- violence and sexuality that passes beyond the border of the socially acceptable (sexual monstrosity)
- doubling (doppelgangers, mistaken identities, etc.)
- a decrepit castle, monastery, fortress, dungeon, or other medieval structure as part of the setting
- the Inquisition (misuse of religious authority)
- specters, ghosts, or phantasmal visions (remnants of the past that cannot be repressed)
- mysterious veiled women
- fragmentary narratives that slowly come to light (investigation, mystery-adventure, etc.)
- enclosure, premature burial, imprisonment
I think I'm doing good. Ive covered the majority of those.:) Thanks I appreciate the input.:)
Quote from: Ronin;799578So I've been putting together a gothic horror setting. So, obviously I've been thinking about it a lot. I was wondering what you out there think are essential things that it needs? Rules? Setting pieces? Something else? I have my ideas/thoughts, but I'm looking for your opinions/ideas.
A mundane baseline to offset the extremity of horror.
When Ive run Ravenloft for example, every day life has to have a certain amount of ordinary - or the "beauty" that gets mentioned in some of the various rulebooks but somehow gets lost in some interpretations.
This is something which to me is a bit too oppressive in WOD games with many, many different monster clans, groups, organizations ruling everything.
This list, a hundred times this list. The only thing I'll add is corruption of the bloodline somehow. Family curses and the like. But basically, Mr Guignol nails it.
Quote from: misterguignol;799604The Gothic is largely defined by conventions. More so that sculpting the system with house rules, I think you can make a game feel more "Gothic" by fostering the right sort of atmosphere by including at least some of the following in the game:
- an imperiled heroine (whose life and/or virginity is often at stake)
- a "Catholic" setting where religion is a major temporal and spiritual power
- a focus on terror (psychological fear) or horror (disgust) or both as affect
- a long-buried secret from the past that can no longer be repressed
- monstrosity (whether human or inhuman) or villainy (often a male figure of power, but you can flip the script here)
- violence and sexuality that passes beyond the border of the socially acceptable (sexual monstrosity)
- doubling (doppelgangers, mistaken identities, etc.)
- a decrepit castle, monastery, fortress, dungeon, or other medieval structure as part of the setting
- the Inquisition (misuse of religious authority)
- specters, ghosts, or phantasmal visions (remnants of the past that cannot be repressed)
- mysterious veiled women
- fragmentary narratives that slowly come to light (investigation, mystery-adventure, etc.)
- enclosure, premature burial, imprisonment
Quote from: Future Villain Band;799859This list, a hundred times this list. The only thing I'll add is corruption of the bloodline somehow. Family curses and the like. But basically, Mr Guignol nails it.
Heh, thanks. I cribbed the list from my lecture notes.
-An atmosphere of dread, loss and despair.
-The main characters are often tragic.
-No hope or redemption.
-The discovery of something dark inside you when you become farther removed from society.
Quote from: Ronin;799578So I've been putting together a gothic horror setting. So, obviously I've been thinking about it a lot. I was wondering what you out there think are essential things that it needs? Rules? Setting pieces? Something else? I have my ideas/thoughts, but I'm looking for your opinions/ideas.
Guillermo Del Toro's Dierctor's commentary for The Devil's Backbone is basically a crash course/masterclass in the Gothic Horror genre. Seriously one of the best commentaries ever; felt like attending a very awesome class at university.
Other than that, I'd say start with Castle of Otranto and/or Melmoth and make your way forward from there.
Mr. G's list is very good.
I am curious what you think. I have heard Horror described as "helplessness" or helplessness being an important part of evoking the feeling of horror. You mention it as disgust. Do you think helplessness is an important aspect of horror or maybe it's just part of a sub-genre?
Quote from: trechriron;799941Mr. G's list is very good.
I am curious what you think. I have heard Horror described as "helplessness" or helplessness being an important part of evoking the feeling of horror. You mention it as disgust. Do you think helplessness is an important aspect of horror or maybe it's just part of a sub-genre?
I can't really speak about horror in general--and I'm thinking it might be such a broad category that there isn't much that can be honestly said about it in general--but the degree of "helplessness" is all over the map in the Gothic. There are a lot of protagonists in Gothic literature that are actually pretty competent and decidedly not helpless against their circumstances: Theodore in Otranto, the characters assembled against Dracula, etc. And then there are characters who are overwhelmed by their circumstances: the narrator in Turn of the Screw, for example.
Similarly, the degree of "hopelessness" is all over the shop. Things turn out pretty well in Dracula, things go fairly badly in Frankenstein, and Otranto has a very ambivalent ending all 'round.
Quote from: trechriron;799941Mr. G's list is very good.
I am curious what you think. I have heard Horror described as "helplessness" or helplessness being an important part of evoking the feeling of horror. You mention it as disgust. Do you think helplessness is an important aspect of horror or maybe it's just part of a sub-genre?
I think the horror-from-disgust genre is distinct from the horror-from-fear genre. Its the difference between an Alfred Hitchcock film vs a torture-porn film. Horroris just too broad a term. When I say I like hoor films, I mean I like films like The Ring, Suspira, The Changeling, etc. I can't stand films like Hostel, Last House on the Left, or Cannibal Holocaust. In other words, I don't mind a bit of blood, but I get no enjoyment from
gore. I'd place the Gothic genre far removed from the horror-as-disgust genre.
Quote from: TristramEvans;799954I think the horror-from-disgust genre is distinct from the horror-from-fear genre.
Sometimes a work will do both, at different times. Matthew Lewis's The Monk attempts to have gross-out moments and moments of psycholigized fear, for example.
QuoteI'd place the Gothic genre far removed from the horror-as-disgust genre.
Well, in the 18th century there was a whole wing of Gothic novels that were all about trying to give the reader a sense of disgust rather than fear. They're pretty mild by 21st century standards, but they caused a lot of moral disapproval at the time.
The way literary critics have tended to sort the Gothic is two place works in one of two camps: Gothic Horror (the stuff that is supposed to inspire disgust) and Gothic Terror (the stuff that is supposed to inspire psychological fear, mystery, etc.) The first is usually thought of as a bodily reaction, the second as a psychological one.
The problem is that the Gothic doesn't actually sort out that easily--you often find both strains at work within a given text.
Quote from: TristramEvans;799954I think the horror-from-disgust genre is distinct from the horror-from-fear genre. Its the difference between an Alfred Hitchcock film vs a torture-porn film.
A bigger difference, for me, is horror that makes a concerted attempt to build atmosphere, a larger mood vs. stuff that just throws out visuals and events hoping for a shock. Atmosphere requires more attention and patience from the author and audience.
I don't mind gore at all if it's serving a purpose beyond trying to shock me or gross me out. But gore on its own is hardly ever scary... it's more likely a release of whatever tensions came before.
Hitchcock wasn't above using shocking images or exciting events... but they generally always added to the larger effect.
There are some movies that got labeled 'torture porn' that I thought were quite good, like Martyrs. The Saw and Hostel movies failed for me because they pulled their punches (they're not nearly as gory/transgressive as they're rep implies) and weren't really about much of anything.
Quote from: misterguignol;799961Sometimes a work will do both, at different times. Matthew Lewis's The Monk attempts to have gross-out moments and moments of psycholigized fear, for example.
I didn't really notice any gross-out moments in The Monk, but its been a while.
QuoteWell, in the 18th century there was a whole wing of Gothic novels that were all about trying to give the reader a sense of disgust rather than fear. They're pretty mild by 21st century standards, but they caused a lot of moral disapproval at the time.
The way literary critics have tended to sort the Gothic is two place works in one of two camps: Gothic Horror (the stuff that is supposed to inspire disgust) and Gothic Terror (the stuff that is supposed to inspire psychological fear, mystery, etc.) The first is usually thought of as a bodily reaction, the second as a psychological one.
The problem is that the Gothic doesn't actually sort out that easily--you often find both strains at work within a given text.
I guess I shuold clarify, its not that gore or the sense of shock/disgust from violence is what distinguishes form, its...how do I put this? When I watched Hostel, and moreso a lot of unrated indy horror films from the 70s, I got the feeling from the really gory and violent scenes that they werent there to scare me, that I was watching the film-maker "get off" on those things. That disgusts me more than what I saw on the screen. I didn't mind the first Saw film, even the first sequel wasnt good, but I found it watchable. By around film 4 or 5 I got the feeling I was watching someone's version of porn (especially the last one that seemed particularly to be all about the director's issues with women more than anything). Violence alone isn't what engenders disgust in me.
But perhaps the distinction Im making isnt a genre one such as just my own tastes.
Quote from: TristramEvans;799994Quote from: misterguignol;799961When I watched Hostel, and moreso a lot of unrated indy horror films from the 70s, I got the feeling from the really gory and violent scenes that they werent there to scare me, that I was watching the film-maker "get off" on those things.
Some of the 70s stuff, like the Italian cannibal movies, was just exploitation... like a freakshow. Eli Roth's Green Inferno is a frat boy homage to those.
Other's 70s shockers, like The Texas Chainsaw Massacre, seemed pretty extreme and nihilistic when I first saw them but were going for more than just empty thrills.
See, I don't mind the original Texas Chainsaw Massacre as much as some other things. It was a brutal, bleak film that really leaves the viewer feeling raw and uncomfortable, but most of the violence is actually implied or pretty tame even. Its more about atmosphere and this horrible suggestion of brutality than lingering on special effects gore, plus there was some pretty clever subtext going on.
Not that I'd call TCM a gothic horror, but its the high end of splatter at least. Cant say the same for what I've seen of the sequels.
Quote from: TristramEvans;800031Not that I'd call TCM a gothic horror, but its the high end of splatter at least. Cant say the same for what I've seen of the sequels.
It might be squeaking up on 'southern gothic' a tiny bit... but I only mentioned it in regards to your mention of 70's horror... and yeah, the sequels/remakes are pretty much crap.
I'm thinking there must be a good example of a gothic set in modern era... to distinguish core elements from the decorations and costumes.
Quote from: Simlasa;800038It might be squeaking up on 'southern gothic' a tiny bit... but I only mentioned it in regards to your mention of 70's horror... and yeah, the sequels/remakes are pretty much crap.
I'm thinking there must be a good example of a gothic set in modern era... to distinguish core elements from the decorations and costumes.
Oh yeah, there was a really good British Gothic Horror series arouund the time Buffy was big...I know this because the 2nd season they ditched the gothic genre and turned the show into a Buffy pastiche, which was too bad. Cant think of the name of the top of my head
Hex! That was the name of it. With Michael Fassbender (Magneto) as a Demon in human form. Took place at a private British girl's school. Priests and teenage girls and ghosts and demons.
The first season was pure Gothic.
I would like to thank everyone that has posted. Definitely given me a lot to ponder about. Let me ask a question though. I'm using "Sabres and Witchery" as my rules set. I'm already going to be using Misterguiguol's tables for horror, terror, madness and below 0 hp. Any rule suggestions or ideas that you might suggest that I'm overlooking?
Quote from: Ronin;800217I would like to thank everyone that has posted. Definitely given me a lot to ponder about. Let me ask a question though. I'm using "Sabres and Witchery" as my rules set. I'm already going to be using Misterguiguol's tables for horror, terror, madness and below 0 hp. Any rule suggestions or ideas that you might suggest that I'm overlooking?
Looks good to me. Sabres & Witchery would be the rules I would use nowadays if I ran something like that with an OSR rule-set. (I just wish it had better editing...)
Quote from: TristramEvans;799954I think the horror-from-disgust genre is distinct from the horror-from-fear genre. Its the difference between an Alfred Hitchcock film vs a torture-porn film. Horroris just too broad a term. When I say I like hoor films, I mean I like films like The Ring, Suspira, The Changeling, etc. I can't stand films like Hostel, Last House on the Left, or Cannibal Holocaust. In other words, I don't mind a bit of blood, but I get no enjoyment from gore. I'd place the Gothic genre far removed from the horror-as-disgust genre.
There's more to disgust than gore. Think "moral disgust".
Quote from: apparition13;800304There's more to disgust than gore. Think "moral disgust".
Doesn't extend for me much further than pedophilia or rape. If I'm engaging horror fiction, I'm not doing so expecting moral activity.
Quote from: TristramEvans;800306Doesn't extend for me much further than pedophilia or rape. If I'm engaging horror fiction, I'm not doing so expecting moral activity.
Then you're arguably not the target for the Gothic--the idea of sins against God, man and the natural law, and the disgust and consequences they arouse, is at the very heart of the genre as I understand it.
(I'm not the expert on the genre misterguignol is, but I do have twenty years of Ravenloft fandom and a hobbyist's engagement with the genre--including four different annotated copies of
Dracula. :) )
Part of the issue with doing Gothic in gaming may be the way Lovecraftian premises and underpinnings have influenced so much of our hobby, and the fact that Gothic is very much anti-Lovecraftian in its core themes and concepts.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;800333Then you're arguably not the target for the Gothic--the idea of sins against God, man and the natural law, and the disgust and consequences they arouse, is at the very heart of the genre as I understand it.
(I'm not the expert on the genre misterguignol is, but I do have twenty years of Ravenloft fandom and a hobbyist's engagement with the genre--including four different annotated copies of Dracula. :) )
I think you've got the right of it. While it's fine to not read with a moral angle in mind, it's worth noting that the original 18th and 19th century audiences for the Gothic did tend to respond to the idea of moral disgust.
(I think we're about tied on the number of annotated Draculas.)
QuotePart of the issue with doing Gothic in gaming may be the way Lovecraftian premises and underpinnings have influenced so much of our hobby, and the fact that Gothic is very much anti-Lovecraftian in its core themes and concepts.
I think that Lovecraftiana has definitely infiltrated ideas about horror in general, yeah. I do see some similarity between Lovecraft's cosmic horrors and Burke's theory of the sublime, but yeah, Lovecraft's horror is probably best seen as a variant later strain of the Gothic rather than its direct continuation.
Quote from: Armchair Gamer;800333Then you're arguably not the target for the Gothic--the idea of sins against God, man and the natural law, and the disgust and consequences they arouse, is at the very heart of the genre as I understand it.
I'm not certain my not being emotionally outraged by something actually impedes my ability to appreciate or enjoy it.
A lot of horror is fairly moral... at least horror movies seem to be.
There's a general sense of things going wrong, but then being set right before the end of the picture... or operating on some karmic code of who 'deserves' to die.
Films that step outside of those expectations are always more shocking... upsetting to people. Taboo things like killing children or pets.
Our reading group recently finished The Little Stranger... which has some gothic elements despite being set after WWII. It's a very mild story but the one thing that upset everyone was when a dog is killed. It just struck people as being 'wrong'.
Our morals have changed... but we still have them and are upset to see them confronted/assaulted.
I'm not sure if that's the same thing as 'moral disgust' though.
Quote from: misterguignol;800335I think that Lovecraftiana has definitely infiltrated ideas about horror in general, yeah. I do see some similarity between Lovecraft's cosmic horrors and Burke's theory of the sublime, but yeah, Lovecraft's horror is probably best seen as a variant later strain of the Gothic rather than its direct continuation.
I find that Lovecraft is very much a man out of time. He quite well traces to the tradition of moral disgust, but he is hearkening to an envisioned order (
Progress!) already being abandoned in his time. So yes, the strain is very much there, but it is almost a personal Gothic; his culture shock against modern life, perhaps in subconscious reflection.
It becomes sublime when he transmits his "rage unto the abyss" to us with a prophetic condemnation: Listen!, one day too you and your beliefs will be anachronistic, irrelevant, and 'all wrong'... and no one will hear you scream.
Basically one of ways I would approach CoC nowadays, so that it is more than a hollow pastiche, is take any reactionary or revolutionary outré idea to our contemporary life and emblazon it as The Truth. That gutting of the audience's core stability, that shock and rejection as 'Purity and Institution is Transgressed and Violated by Forces That Cannot Be Denied', is a total nod to the Gothic. But you're going to need players willing to be metaphorically punched in the gut.
I've seen tons & tons of references to Lovecraft's monsters, but veryvery few examples of Lovecraftian horror in RPGs. Even Call of Cthulhu adventures are almost never actually "Lovecraftian".
Quote from: TristramEvans;800394I've seen tons & tons of references to Lovecraft's monsters, but veryvery few examples of Lovecraftian horror in RPGs. Even Call of Cthulhu adventures are almost never actually "Lovecraftian".
There's a lot of form over substance out there, I agree. There are gems out there, however, dealing with the subtext, the "why this shit should be scary beyond grisly death." The terror, as misterguignol puts it, if you will. (I notice a lot of the better ones focus less on the how from the antagonist side. Uncertainty works better, I think.) Oddly for as much as Ravenloft gets teased, it too (at least the old box sets) tried to tackle the idea of subtext as best it could, touching upon the romanticized friction between highs and lows.
There's a tortured aesthetic underlying it all, and far too often the material available seems pleased to gloss over it. Maybe there's a challenge in published adventures nailing down and transmitting values to GMs as a component to run mood. Perhaps it sacrifices the open-endedness of published material, or strays too close to formulaic railroad, when that idea is trying to be communicated.
It all reminds me of someone's lament (I forget the name now) that 'one of the hardest feats' in literature is a '
good ghost story'. There's an ephemeral
something that is as delicate as a soufflé. Miss it, everyone knows it as it collapses upon itself; hit it, everyone swoons haunted by its majesty.
Quote from: misterguignol;799604The Gothic is largely defined by conventions. More so that sculpting the system with house rules, I think you can make a game feel more "Gothic" by fostering the right sort of atmosphere by including at least some of the following in the game:
- an imperiled heroine (whose life and/or virginity is often at stake)
- a "Catholic" setting where religion is a major temporal and spiritual power
- a focus on terror (psychological fear) or horror (disgust) or both as affect
- a long-buried secret from the past that can no longer be repressed
- monstrosity (whether human or inhuman) or villainy (often a male figure of power, but you can flip the script here)
- violence and sexuality that passes beyond the border of the socially acceptable (sexual monstrosity)
- doubling (doppelgangers, mistaken identities, etc.)
- a decrepit castle, monastery, fortress, dungeon, or other medieval structure as part of the setting
- the Inquisition (misuse of religious authority)
- specters, ghosts, or phantasmal visions (remnants of the past that cannot be repressed)
- mysterious veiled women
- fragmentary narratives that slowly come to light (investigation, mystery-adventure, etc.)
- enclosure, premature burial, imprisonment
This is so weird, but as you talk about in
Tales of the Grotesque and Dungeonesque about Gothic being more
mode than
genre it got me to think about a recent... an OK, so-so movie I recently watched:
Space Station 76Part of it was parody of the 1970s, not just in technology and sci-fi assumptions, but in half-hearted lampooning of 1970s aesthetics and ideals in an almost-serious manner. Its self-reflective criticism in what looks like a screwball comedy served as a total depressant to the lush setting effort. It touches upon so many of the atmospheric effects you listed, it's bizarre.
It's not great cinema, or at least not from my first impression, but it is absolutely haunting. And looking at that list it really struck home, it might be actual 1970s retro-sci-fi Gothic (produced in the 2010s). It's like mind blowing to even write such a contrasting string of descriptors.
I'm wondering if anyone else saw this film and how weirded out they are by this list and how much it corresponds to that movie.
... and could modern decades (70s, 80s, 90s, etc.) and their artifacts be rendered Gothic for gaming in modern settings.
Quote from: Opaopajr;800399... and could modern decades (70s, 80s, 90s, etc.) and their artifacts be rendered Gothic for gaming in modern settings.
I could see something centered on a huge old corporation, falling into corruption and obsolescence... in a dying urban setting... Usher Corp. (whatever the company produces should remain vague... folks always change the conversation).
The 'catholics' and 'inquisitors' of the setting are the money-minded people, the banks and shadowy investors who are lurking in the wings. Also, the 'efficiency experts'.
The 'terror' comes to the employees (PCs) who are fearful of what might become of them if the company fails or they lose their jobs. The 'horror' comes from what the company asks them to do to avert that fate.
There are buried secrets of the company's past actions that are being dug up by the competition or other adversaries to the company. Constant vigilance is mandatory... but the weight of such dark secrets on the minds of those involved in covering them up grows heavier with each revelation.
Monstrosity and villainy are supplied by other employees and the PCs' bosses. The CEO suffered horrible burns in a fire during his youth. This had led to many ambitious young fellows to burn themselves, carry obvious scars... in an attempt to gain his sympathy.
Violence and sexuality beyond the pale also come from the PCs' fellow employees and their attempts to lessen competition or gain favor (though I'm thinking it should all remain subtle and seldom enter outright combat).
Doubles and dopplegangers might be other employees who seek favor by having plastic surgery to closer resemble the corporate founders (long dead)... the 'Employees of the Month' always seem to look a bit alike. (this from a news story I heard about ballerinas getting plastic surgery to resemble an ex-dancer the ballet director idolized).
Also, sometimes a newly promoted executive will suddenly seem 'not himself'... and will use out of date business jargon for a few weeks... then settle in and seem 'much better'.
The 'castle' is the corporate building itself... huge, looming over the urban wastes surrounding it. As the company fortunes have sunk entire floors have been consolidated... leaving large sections empty. Attempts to rent those spaces have failed... OR... those spaces are rented to various odd start-ups of questionable product that come and go like tumors in the great beast's structure.
There are lots of traditions and legends within the corporate culture. Tall tales and fables of warning. Lots of variations of these... but all seek to implant a healthy fear of upper management... and the janitors.
The ghosts are subtle and generally unseen.
- A certain office that hasn't been assigned to anyone in decades.
- A coffee cart lady who seems to have always been there... never getting older.
- Something weird about that area of the basement where the chief of maintenance died 20yrs ago.
- A large architect's model of the building up on the jr. executive floor that some people claim to have seen lights inside at night when they thought they were alone, working late.
Premature burial/imprisonment comes from disfavoring the bosses and being demoted back to 'the cubes'... or being assigned to some remote 'branch office'.
Being fired is just plain death as far as the PC's place in the game is concerned.
Not sure what to do with the 'mysterious veiled women'... though it has me thinking of executives wives having lots of Botox injections... to where their faces become immobile veils that hide their thoughts and emotions and fear.
So, PCs clamor to prove themselves and move up the ranks... taking on a series of assignments that are obviously leading them down a path of moral decay... towards being successful psychopaths or insane washouts.
There should be some baroque sumptuary laws in the dress code relating to corporate hierarchy... "Congratulations, you managed to kill the vice president of marketing and his homunculus... you can now wear a red tie!" (that might be crossing too close to Paranoia territory).
Quote from: TristramEvans;800360I'm not certain my not being emotionally outraged by something actually impedes my ability to appreciate or enjoy it.
I know not finding something funny impedes my ability to laugh at it.
Quote from: apparition13;800471I know not finding something funny impedes my ability to laugh at it.
Not finding Voltaire's Candide or Swift's Gulliver particularly humorous did not impede my ability to appreciate their social commentary however, nor beauty of prose. Author intention is not the sole judgment of value for a work, let alone an audience.
Quote from: Simlasa;800414I could see something centered on a huge old corporation, falling into corruption and obsolescence... in a dying urban setting... Usher Corp. (whatever the company produces should remain vague... folks always change the conversation).
The 'catholics' and 'inquisitors' of the setting are the money-minded people, the banks and shadowy investors who are lurking in the wings. Also, the 'efficiency experts'.
The 'terror' comes to the employees (PCs) who are fearful of what might become of them if the company fails or they lose their jobs. The 'horror' comes from what the company asks them to do to avert that fate.
There are buried secrets of the company's past actions that are being dug up by the competition or other adversaries to the company. Constant vigilance is mandatory... but the weight of such dark secrets on the minds of those involved in covering them up grows heavier with each revelation.
Monstrosity and villainy are supplied by other employees and the PCs' bosses. The CEO suffered horrible burns in a fire during his youth. This had led to many ambitious young fellows to burn themselves, carry obvious scars... in an attempt to gain his sympathy.
Violence and sexuality beyond the pale also come from the PCs' fellow employees and their attempts to lessen competition or gain favor (though I'm thinking it should all remain subtle and seldom enter outright combat).
Doubles and dopplegangers might be other employees who seek favor by having plastic surgery to closer resemble the corporate founders (long dead)... the 'Employees of the Month' always seem to look a bit alike. (this from a news story I heard about ballerinas getting plastic surgery to resemble an ex-dancer the ballet director idolized).
Also, sometimes a newly promoted executive will suddenly seem 'not himself'... and will use out of date business jargon for a few weeks... then settle in and seem 'much better'.
The 'castle' is the corporate building itself... huge, looming over the urban wastes surrounding it. As the company fortunes have sunk entire floors have been consolidated... leaving large sections empty. Attempts to rent those spaces have failed... OR... those spaces are rented to various odd start-ups of questionable product that come and go like tumors in the great beast's structure.
There are lots of traditions and legends within the corporate culture. Tall tales and fables of warning. Lots of variations of these... but all seek to implant a healthy fear of upper management... and the janitors.
The ghosts are subtle and generally unseen.
- A certain office that hasn't been assigned to anyone in decades.
- A coffee cart lady who seems to have always been there... never getting older.
- Something weird about that area of the basement where the chief of maintenance died 20yrs ago.
- A large architect's model of the building up on the jr. executive floor that some people claim to have seen lights inside at night when they thought they were alone, working late.
Premature burial/imprisonment comes from disfavoring the bosses and being demoted back to 'the cubes'... or being assigned to some remote 'branch office'.
Being fired is just plain death as far as the PC's place in the game is concerned.
Not sure what to do with the 'mysterious veiled women'... though it has me thinking of executives wives having lots of Botox injections... to where their faces become immobile veils that hide their thoughts and emotions and fear.
So, PCs clamor to prove themselves and move up the ranks... taking on a series of assignments that are obviously leading them down a path of moral decay... towards being successful psychopaths or insane washouts.
There should be some baroque sumptuary laws in the dress code relating to corporate hierarchy... "Congratulations, you managed to kill the vice president of marketing and his homunculus... you can now wear a red tie!" (that might be crossing too close to Paranoia territory).
That's great gaming fodder! Perhaps painfully close to home for some, but wonderful material.
I'm gonna dig up my "How to": Gothic Items topic and practice.
I already have in mind 1970s/80s youthful suburban wasteland. Old possessed Speak n Spells, abandoned arcades, infamous roller skates or skateboards. Might be a way to really maximize the mood for games like Little Fears or Changeling the Dreaming or something.
Quote from: TristramEvans;800473Not finding Voltaire's Candide or Swift's Gulliver particularly humorous did not impede my ability to appreciate their social commentary however, nor beauty of prose. Author intention is not the sole judgment of value for a work, let alone an audience.
The purpose of satire isn't humor, it's social commentary. One can appreciate that without ROFL. There's no point to Benny Hill, or for a personal example 'Arrested Development', if you (or in the latter case I) don't find it funny. I'm not the audience for Arrested Development, or Jazz, or Golf, or Horror as a Genre, or 'serious literature', or 'horrible people doing horrible things (GoT, The Wire, Dexter, Breaking Bad, etc., even nBSG). I don't feel bad, or superior, for 'not getting it' where these are concerned. It's just different strokes/different folks.
So if the 'horror' of a horror novel is a lust-crazed monk trying to corrupt a virginal innocent, and you feel about as much horror about that as you do looking at lolcats, you're not the audience. Likewise if your response to Harry Potter is horror at the glorification of satanism, you're not the audience for that.
Quote from: apparition13;800579The purpose of satire isn't humor, it's social commentary. One can appreciate that without ROFL. There's no point to Benny Hill, or for a personal example 'Arrested Development', if you (or in the latter case I) don't find it funny. I'm not the audience for Arrested Development, or Jazz, or Golf, or Horror as a Genre, or 'serious literature', or 'horrible people doing horrible things (GoT, The Wire, Dexter, Breaking Bad, etc., even nBSG). I don't feel bad, or superior, for 'not getting it' where these are concerned. It's just different strokes/different folks.
So if the 'horror' of a horror novel is a lust-crazed monk trying to corrupt a virginal innocent, and you feel about as much horror about that as you do looking at lolcats, you're not the audience. Likewise if your response to Harry Potter is horror at the glorification of satanism, you're not the audience for that.
This conversation has gotten too stupid for me to continue with. Good look deciding for other people what they are the audience for.
Quote from: TristramEvans;800360I'm not certain my not being emotionally outraged by something actually impedes my ability to appreciate or enjoy it.
Oh, you can certainly appreciate or enjoy it, but you won't be feeling the response the work was intended to evoke by the creator--not due to any flaw in the work or the recipient, but just because there's a certain disconnect there.
It's like all the talk these days about enjoying things 'ironically', or about people who played OD&D looking for epic swashbuckling fantasy adventure instead of down-and-dirty logistical planning and dungeoncrawling. :)
Quote from: Simlasa;800414(snip awesome sauce) ...
Excellent stuff!! Considering where I spend the bulk of my day, I think you just made the hairs stand up on the back of my neck...
I found this interesting discussion by different authors about the differences between urban fantasy and gothic horror. They share the same tropes, but there are some differences. Both have angels, demons, vampires, dark magic etc. But gothic horror has a darker mood and more tragic main characters. They stuff they do and witness leaves a mark on them. In urban fantasy the main characters are unaffected by the stuff around them.
Link (http://www.sfsignal.com/archives/2012/10/mind-meld-the-intersection-between-gothic-horror-and-urban-fantasy/)
I'd want to use something like UA's Madness Meter if I was going for the gothic mood... some measure of growing corruption, moral decay, doom.
I think "Decay" is a major theme of Gothic Horror. Of the slow breaking down into shambles of things: ancient manors, people's bodies, people's minds, the city, the moral good,etc.
I think it was a major theme of concern in the period Gothic horror was at its peak.
I'm thinking of a modern inversion of Gothic conventions to create a One-Shot/Short Adventure for the coming Halloween. I think I could capture the Gothic mood in a tale involving the fall of a male high school quarterback. Reposting misterguignol's list of popular conventions for convenience:
Quote from: misterguignol;799604The Gothic is largely defined by conventions. More so that sculpting the system with house rules, I think you can make a game feel more "Gothic" by fostering the right sort of atmosphere by including at least some of the following in the game:
- an imperiled heroine (whose life and/or virginity is often at stake)
- a "Catholic" setting where religion is a major temporal and spiritual power
- a focus on terror (psychological fear) or horror (disgust) or both as affect
- a long-buried secret from the past that can no longer be repressed
- monstrosity (whether human or inhuman) or villainy (often a male figure of power, but you can flip the script here)
- violence and sexuality that passes beyond the border of the socially acceptable (sexual monstrosity)
- doubling (doppelgangers, mistaken identities, etc.)
- a decrepit castle, monastery, fortress, dungeon, or other medieval structure as part of the setting
- the Inquisition (misuse of religious authority)
- specters, ghosts, or phantasmal visions (remnants of the past that cannot be repressed)
- mysterious veiled women
- fragmentary narratives that slowly come to light (investigation, mystery-adventure, etc.)
- enclosure, premature burial, imprisonment
The q-back would be the imperiled hero. Maybe older and visiting his glory days.
Evangelical Christianity could be the Catholic stand in, but I am more interested in the 'cult of sports'.
Terror in the form of peaking early in life yet not good enough to go pro.
Terror in the systemic casual brutality that chews up youth's future for sport?
Horror in the overlooked sports injuries and casual rules bending to win.
Horror of encouraged & absolved bullying of those who don't 'dance for the circus'?
Exposé about the sports program's abuses and cover ups.
Perhaps an emasculating female group shutting down the program?
Socially unacceptable violence & sexuality... a lot to choose, from hazing and on.
Decaying High School Football Stadium in Texas as decrepit monument. Suspended program?
Haunted by memories, football helmeted (veiled) phantasmal players?
Imprisoned enclosure in the form of: actual prison for crimes?, inescapable small town?, bleak employment future/ life as prison/peaked at age 17?
Power comes at a great price. Angel from Buffy isn't very gothic, because he only drinks some pig's blood but never pays the price of being a vampire. Darkman, the superhero movie character, is very gothic imo. There has to be something tragic and not a lot of wishfulfillment.
Yes decay is gothic. And so it the absence of good.
Quote from: Opaopajr;812233I'm thinking of a modern inversion of Gothic conventions to create a One-Shot/Short Adventure for the coming Halloween. I think I could capture the Gothic mood in a tale involving the fall of a male high school quarterback.
This made me think of Count Floyd and Monster Chiller Horror Theater.
Quote from: jan paparazzi;812267Angel from Buffy isn't very gothic, because he only drinks some pig's blood but never pays the price of being a vampire.
Didn't watch much Buffy and Angel, huh?
Quote from: rawma;812307This made me think of Count Floyd and Monster Chiller Horror Theater.
As I was writing it, it read like the plot line of several recent movies about Small Town (w/ or w/o Sports) Melancholy. Namely it mimicked "Varsity Blues" with that "Dawson's Creek" main character. Seems like I am not the only one interested in the gothic decay, abandonment, & isolation of small town America.
The challenge is how to make it a
playable game. What sort of gothic flavor to run with?
I'm thinking between three, one of which is location obvious but oddly unsatisfying:
1. Southern Gothic. A bit obvious with the rural locale. However the themes of Evil Wears Mask of Propriety, Class Warfare, and Grotesque Conflate Revulsion & Empathy, cover more "something's rotten" than "singing the blues."
2. Dark Medieval Times. Themes being Death is Everywhere, Everyone is Assigned a Place at Birth, and World Beyond Fief is Strange & Mysterious. Good, especially the sense of stasis and xenophobia, but I want more wistfulness.
3. Inside the Black House. Themes of Claustrophobia, Past Never Dies, and Not Every House is a Home gets really close to a Springsteen or Mellencamp song. Challenge is converting an entire small town into a metaphor of a singular massive Black House. Challenge is also shifting the Arena into a sort of exalted abattoir of especially cultivated sacrifice.
The subject just seems a little too close to real life to be entertaining as horror. Perhaps if there were more of a focus on the grotesque rather than what just seems sad but ordinary.
Certainly I am not among those interested in movies about the gothic decay, abandonment and isolation of small town America. Unless they've also got undead.
Quote from: jan paparazzi;812267Power comes at a great price. Angel from Buffy isn't very gothic, because he only drinks some pig's blood but never pays the price of being a vampire. Darkman, the superhero movie character, is very gothic imo. There has to be something tragic and not a lot of wishfulfillment.
Yes decay is gothic. And so it the absence of good.
There was little tragedy to Dracula in the original gothic novel, as far as I recall. I don't think tragedy is a necessary trope to make something "gothic". More generically, though, melodrama
is often mentioned as a staple of the gothic style, and this may well come in the form of tragedy.
Also, Angel was a deeply tragic figure, as were Buffy and many if not most of the other characters on the show. It had a lot of gothic elements, yet also played them for laughs at the same time, which was probably one of the reasons of its appeal.
Quote from: 3rik;812530There was little tragedy to Dracula in the original gothic novel, as far as I recall.
I dunno, they take the death of Lucy pretty hard.
But in general I agree with you that melodrama, and really any expression of the passions over-ruling reason, is more on point.
Quote from: 3rik;812530There was little tragedy to Dracula in the original gothic novel, as far as I recall. I don't think tragedy is a necessary trope to make something "gothic". More generically, though, melodrama is often mentioned as a staple of the gothic style, and this may well come in the form of tragedy.
Also, Angel was a deeply tragic figure, as were Buffy and many if not most of the other characters on the show. It had a lot of gothic elements, yet also played them for laughs at the same time, which was probably one of the reasons of its appeal.
Well, I would qualify Buffy/Angel as Urban Fantasy, but that genre has many of the same trappings as Gothic Horror. But it's lighter in tone. I would want to switch with Angel for a week, but not with Dracula or even worse Frankenstein.
Quote from: jan paparazzi;812587Well, I would qualify Buffy/Angel as Urban Fantasy, but that genre has many of the same trappings as Gothic Horror. But it's lighter in tone. I would want to switch with Angel for a week, but not with Dracula or even worse Frankenstein.
I'd have a fun time as Frankenstein's monster.
Quote from: jan paparazzi;812587Well, I would qualify Buffy/Angel as Urban Fantasy, but that genre has many of the same trappings as Gothic Horror.
Trappings but not atmosphere, IMO. I've never thought of Buffy as 'gothic'... at least not in any consistent way. Bits here and there maybe. Supernatural came closer, I think, in it's early seasons... but left that in favor of beer and hotwings.
Quote from: misterguignol;812561I dunno, they take the death of Lucy pretty hard.
But in general I agree with you that melodrama, and really any expression of the passions over-ruling reason, is more on point.
Why yes, I agree, but I was referring to the Dracula character. Unlike in the Coppola adaptation, he's really just an unnatural thing that should not be. He doesn't invoke pity or anything like that.
Quote from: 3rik;812716Why yes, I agree, but I was referring to the Dracula character. Unlike in the Coppola adaptation, he's really just an unnatural thing that should not be. He doesn't invoke pity or anything like that.
Oh, ok. Yeah, he's basically a monster. There's that weird bit at the end where he seems to be released from some sort of torment when he dies, but that's too little too late, narratively-speaking.
The monster in Frankenstein is a pretty sympathetic character (also a bit melodramatic).
Quote from: Simlasa;812648Trappings but not atmosphere, IMO. I've never thought of Buffy as 'gothic'... at least not in any consistent way. Bits here and there maybe. Supernatural came closer, I think, in it's early seasons... but left that in favor of beer and hotwings.
That's my point. Gothic horror is much darker in tone. Supernatural never hits the horror tone to me.
Quote from: misterguignol;812561I dunno, they take the death of Lucy pretty hard.
But in general I agree with you that melodrama, and really any expression of the passions over-ruling reason, is more on point.
Well, you might call it melodrama, but I think we mean roughly the same. To me if the main characters are "ze people with powerz" it's urban fantasy and if the main characters are truly cursed and you wouldn't want to stand in their shoes for a million dollars it's gothic horror.
I already got the Gothic Small Town Football One-Shot's working title. Very derivative and trite, but a good placeholder for now.
"Home Coming Day"
About high school football team members riding a bus & getting into an accident, returning for the one-shot's eponymous event. Waking up they find themselves scattered from each other in an unrecognizable town, and scattered from themselves as unrecognizably late middle-aged. Obviously it is their own hometown, just in advanced future decay.
Something is trying to consume each of their last secret hopes in an effort to skip their lives to their joyless sunsets.
Gothic & playable?
(edit: it'd likely be more terror than horror. and of what horror would be natural bodily decrepitude, like shin splints, incontinence, fallen arches, brain trauma, etc. Oh my, this could be very depressing to some players...)
Quote from: jan paparazzi;812754Supernatural never hits the horror tone to me.
In general no, and in later seasons certainly not... but in the beginning it was quite a bit darker and the adversaries were sinister/mysterious/scary. It had an atmosphere full of sadness and regret as well.
The brothers were financing their zealous monster hunting with crime and were in constant peril of slipping deeper into the darkness of their own moral decay... that of course is not where the show went, though I really wished it had.
How "gothic" would you say the Hellboy-verse is? Lots of mystery, decay, supernatural elements, melodrama there, but there are also pulp and supers tropes. Urban fantasy? Supers horror?
I wouldn't call that gothic at all. It's pulpy dark superhero with sf elements (weird science, alternative timeline) I think. It's a weird and very cool hybrid, but it isn't gothic. Not by a long shot.
Truly gothic in an rpg makes me uncomfortable playing it. In new Vampire there was canonical female vampire in one of the books they wrote who was a priestess of the Lancea Sanctum (can't remember her name) who works at a homeless shelter. She uses temptation by planting drugs for the addicts and if they resist she kills them out of mercy. Because then they can go to heaven without sins. Well brother, I would be very uncomfortable roleplaying a character like that. It wouldn't be very fun either. Anyway there are people who want to play something as bleak as that, but not me.
Anyway, I don't really know what genre Hellboy is.
Hmm...
This is odd.
I do not define "gothic" as uncomfortable at all.
Decay in the form of ruins and decadence, sure, and something unseen constantly lurking, clearly, but I do not see it as automatically uncomfortable.
To me it is more a romance-like reference.
I can see how romance mixed with horror and/or terror easily becomes uncomfortable, but discomfort is still not the primary thing in gothic horror for me, but it is clearly a common by-product.
Quote from: Opaopajr;812834About high school football team members riding a bus & getting into an accident, returning for the one-shot's eponymous event. Waking up they find themselves scattered from each other in an unrecognizable town, and scattered from themselves as unrecognizably late middle-aged. Obviously it is their own hometown, just in advanced future decay.
Something is trying to consume each of their last secret hopes in an effort to skip their lives to their joyless sunsets.
Gothic & playable?
It seems gothic to me, given the weird and unexplained changes in themselves and their town, and the menace of something unexplained hanging over them. My previous impression was that it was a conventional story of an aging athlete; like "Death of a Salesman" but with a former sports star.
Multiple evenly placed characters, a mystery to solve as minimal goal, grim and terrible threats. So I would say playable with the right players.
Quote from: jan paparazzi;812923Anyway, I don't really know what genre Hellboy is.
Supernatural detective. Like Carnacki, the Ghost-Hunter, Repairman Jack, and Dylan Dog.
The anthology Dark Detectives, which Mignola listed as his primary influence in creating Hellboy, is devoted to this particular small genre. Mignola adds in a lot of pulp stuff, and folklore, which is his unique take on the genre, but its pretty well-defined by the classic supernatural detective story tropes, to the point Mignola has actually adapted several of the stories just inserting Hellboy in the place of the protagonist.
This is referring to the comic, btw, the movies are their own thing, and don't really resemble the comic much except visually.
The Wikipedia entry actually sums it up pretty thoroughly what constitutes gothic fiction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_fiction). Discomfort is not a defining feature of gothic fiction as established. It is however often a feature of horror in general and hence also gothic horror.
Quote from: 3rik;813064The Wikipedia entry actually sums it up pretty thoroughly what constitutes gothic fiction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_fiction). Discomfort is not a defining feature of gothic fiction as established. It is however often a feature of horror in general and hence also gothic horror.
Ah yes, of course.
Quote from: 3rik;813064The Wikipedia entry actually sums it up pretty thoroughly what constitutes gothic fiction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_fiction). Discomfort is not a defining feature of gothic fiction as established. It is however often a feature of horror in general and hence also gothic horror.
I view "Arrrgg! Zombies!" as horror and "Oh my God! What have I become?" as gothic horror.
There is obviously a difference between classic victorian literature and modern literature like Anne Rice. But they have something in common. The main character is cursed. Modern gothic dropped a lot of the classic trappings though, like the castle on top of the mountain. VtM is Anne Rice plus conspiracies. They toned down the conspiracies later making VtR even more Ricean than VtM. Instead of fearing the monster that rips you apart, you play the monster that rips people apart and doesn't give a fuck.
Edit: I might be wrong. What I see as typically gothic is probably typically Anne Rice, who reversed the roles.
"Hey those guys are Zombies!" = Horror
"Hey I'm really worried about zombies!" = Gothic
"Hey I'm a zombie!" = Gothic Horror
Quote from: 3rik;813064The Wikipedia entry actually sums it up pretty thoroughly what constitutes gothic fiction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_fiction). Discomfort is not a defining feature of gothic fiction as established. It is however often a feature of horror in general and hence also gothic horror.
I think that's pretty much the actual definition accepted by academics and not what others imagine when the hear the word "gothic".
I came across a pretty gothic pc game called Darkest Dungeon (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1460250988/darkest-dungeon-by-red-hook-studios). It's a dungeon crawler which puts a lot of emphasis on the psychological stresses of adventuring. The characters become tainted by their experiences and get all kinds of psychological afflictions like paranoid, depressed or hopeless.
I think this sums up gothic. It's where the main characters become tainted with what they experience or do. They don't just walk away and shrug it off.
Quote from: jan paparazzi;816273I came across a pretty gothic pc game called Darkest Dungeon (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1460250988/darkest-dungeon-by-red-hook-studios). It's a dungeon crawler which puts a lot of emphasis on the psychological stresses of adventuring. The characters become tainted by their experiences and get all kinds of psychological afflictions like paranoid, depressed or hopeless.
I think this sums up gothic. It's where the main characters become tainted with what they experience or do. They don't just walk away and shrug it off.
If you keep the party's stress levels low, they do not develop ailments that much, if at all, from what I've heard.
To me, those ailments is not gothic as such, but it is a possible(not necessary) ingredient.
That game is clearly gothic in so many other ways too though, like dark areas, catholic influence, ruins, and so on, so I agree that the game is clearly gothic.
I recently stumbled across the Ghastly Affair (https://engineoforacles.wordpress.com/2015/02/11/ghastly-affair-the-gothic-game-of-romantic-horror/) rpg, and my first thought was, "this is what Ravenloft should have been."
Seems to be hitting all of Mister Guingol's bulletpoints so far as I read it. And while the book is dense, the system is quite simple.
I plan to use it the next time I do a Gothic horror game.
Quote from: Catelf;816329If you keep the party's stress levels low, they do not develop ailments that much, if at all, from what I've heard.
To me, those ailments is not gothic as such, but it is a possible(not necessary) ingredient.
That game is clearly gothic in so many other ways too though, like dark areas, catholic influence, ruins, and so on, so I agree that the game is clearly gothic.
Yeah true gothic would be starting off with an ailment which can't be removed. Thief the kleptomaniac.