So I've been putting together a gothic horror setting. So, obviously I've been thinking about it a lot. I was wondering what you out there think are essential things that it needs? Rules? Setting pieces? Something else? I have my ideas/thoughts, but I'm looking for your opinions/ideas.

I prefer some unified cosmology for the horrors going on... some shared mythology/history... some old event that opened up a doorway to whatever... vs. it just being a completely random collection of whatever monsters/ghosts seem to fit.
That might not be very 'gothic'... and I don't need the setting to wear its rationale on its sleeve. Just some suggestion that there is a reason behind these things will keep my brain quiet, usually.

Then again I suppose it could be an Otranto/Poe-world... without many overtly supernatural events/creatures... but lots of mysteries, subtle curses and malignancies of the mind. A landscape of looming shadows and crumbling estates inhabited by madmen. In which case I'd wonder what/who the PCs were and what they might do except observe... could they, should they, save the House of Usher?

The Gothic is largely defined by conventions. More so that sculpting the system with house rules, I think you can make a game feel more "Gothic" by fostering the right sort of atmosphere by including at least some of the following in the game:

• an imperiled heroine (whose life and/or virginity is often at stake)
• a "Catholic" setting where religion is a major temporal and spiritual power
• a focus on terror (psychological fear) or horror (disgust) or both as affect
• a long-buried secret from the past that can no longer be repressed
• monstrosity (whether human or inhuman) or villainy (often a male figure of power, but you can flip the script here)
• violence and sexuality that passes beyond the border of the socially acceptable (sexual monstrosity)
• doubling (doppelgangers, mistaken identities, etc.)
• a decrepit castle, monastery, fortress, dungeon, or other medieval structure as part of the setting
• the Inquisition (misuse of religious authority)
• specters, ghosts, or phantasmal visions (remnants of the past that cannot be repressed)
• mysterious veiled women
• fragmentary narratives that slowly come to light (investigation, mystery-adventure, etc.)
• enclosure, premature burial, imprisonment

Quote from: misterguignol;799604The Gothic is largely defined by conventions. More so that sculpting the system with house rules, I think you can make a game feel more "Gothic" by fostering the right sort of atmosphere by including at least some of the following in the game:

• an imperiled heroine (whose life and/or virginity is often at stake)
• a "Catholic" setting where religion is a major temporal and spiritual power
• a focus on terror (psychological fear) or horror (disgust) or both as affect
• a long-buried secret from the past that can no longer be repressed
• monstrosity (whether human or inhuman) or villainy (often a male figure of power, but you can flip the script here)
• violence and sexuality that passes beyond the border of the socially acceptable (sexual monstrosity)
• doubling (doppelgangers, mistaken identities, etc.)
• a decrepit castle, monastery, fortress, dungeon, or other medieval structure as part of the setting
• the Inquisition (misuse of religious authority)
• specters, ghosts, or phantasmal visions (remnants of the past that cannot be repressed)
• mysterious veiled women
• fragmentary narratives that slowly come to light (investigation, mystery-adventure, etc.)
• enclosure, premature burial, imprisonment

I think I'm doing good. Ive covered the majority of those. Thanks I appreciate the input.

Quote from: Ronin;799578So I've been putting together a gothic horror setting. So, obviously I've been thinking about it a lot. I was wondering what you out there think are essential things that it needs? Rules? Setting pieces? Something else? I have my ideas/thoughts, but I'm looking for your opinions/ideas.

A mundane baseline to offset the extremity of horror.

When Ive run Ravenloft for example, every day life has to have a certain amount of ordinary - or the "beauty" that gets mentioned in some of the various rulebooks but somehow gets lost in some interpretations.

This is something which to me is a bit too oppressive in WOD games with many, many different monster clans, groups, organizations ruling everything.

This list, a hundred times this list.  The only thing I'll add is corruption of the bloodline somehow.  Family curses and the like.  But basically, Mr Guignol nails it.

Quote from: misterguignol;799604The Gothic is largely defined by conventions. More so that sculpting the system with house rules, I think you can make a game feel more "Gothic" by fostering the right sort of atmosphere by including at least some of the following in the game:

• an imperiled heroine (whose life and/or virginity is often at stake)
• a "Catholic" setting where religion is a major temporal and spiritual power
• a focus on terror (psychological fear) or horror (disgust) or both as affect
• a long-buried secret from the past that can no longer be repressed
• monstrosity (whether human or inhuman) or villainy (often a male figure of power, but you can flip the script here)
• violence and sexuality that passes beyond the border of the socially acceptable (sexual monstrosity)
• doubling (doppelgangers, mistaken identities, etc.)
• a decrepit castle, monastery, fortress, dungeon, or other medieval structure as part of the setting
• the Inquisition (misuse of religious authority)
• specters, ghosts, or phantasmal visions (remnants of the past that cannot be repressed)
• mysterious veiled women
• fragmentary narratives that slowly come to light (investigation, mystery-adventure, etc.)
• enclosure, premature burial, imprisonment

Quote from: Future Villain Band;799859This list, a hundred times this list.  The only thing I'll add is corruption of the bloodline somehow.  Family curses and the like.  But basically, Mr Guignol nails it.

Heh, thanks. I cribbed the list from my lecture notes.

-An atmosphere of dread, loss and despair.
-The main characters are often tragic.
-No hope or redemption.
-The discovery of something dark inside you when you become farther removed from society.

Quote from: Ronin;799578So I've been putting together a gothic horror setting. So, obviously I've been thinking about it a lot. I was wondering what you out there think are essential things that it needs? Rules? Setting pieces? Something else? I have my ideas/thoughts, but I'm looking for your opinions/ideas.

Guillermo Del Toro's Dierctor's commentary for The Devil's Backbone is basically a crash course/masterclass in the Gothic Horror genre. Seriously one of the best commentaries ever; felt like attending a very awesome class at university.

Other than that, I'd say start with Castle of Otranto and/or Melmoth and make your way forward from there.

Mr. G's list is very good.

I am curious what you think. I have heard Horror described as "helplessness" or helplessness being an important part of evoking the feeling of horror. You mention it as disgust. Do you think helplessness is an important aspect of horror or maybe it's just part of a sub-genre?

Quote from: trechriron;799941Mr. G's list is very good.

I am curious what you think. I have heard Horror described as "helplessness" or helplessness being an important part of evoking the feeling of horror. You mention it as disgust. Do you think helplessness is an important aspect of horror or maybe it's just part of a sub-genre?

I can't really speak about horror in general--and I'm thinking it might be such a broad category that there isn't much that can be honestly said about it in general--but the degree of "helplessness" is all over the map in the Gothic. There are a lot of protagonists in Gothic literature that are actually pretty competent and decidedly not helpless against their circumstances: Theodore in Otranto, the characters assembled against Dracula, etc. And then there are characters who are overwhelmed by their circumstances: the narrator in Turn of the Screw, for example.

Similarly, the degree of "hopelessness" is all over the shop. Things turn out pretty well in Dracula, things go fairly badly in Frankenstein, and Otranto has a very ambivalent ending all 'round.

Quote from: trechriron;799941Mr. G's list is very good.

I am curious what you think. I have heard Horror described as "helplessness" or helplessness being an important part of evoking the feeling of horror. You mention it as disgust. Do you think helplessness is an important aspect of horror or maybe it's just part of a sub-genre?

I think the horror-from-disgust genre is distinct from the horror-from-fear genre. Its the difference between an Alfred Hitchcock film vs a torture-porn film. Horroris just too broad a term. When I say I like hoor films, I mean I like films like The Ring, Suspira, The Changeling, etc. I can't stand films like Hostel, Last House on the Left, or Cannibal Holocaust. In other words, I don't mind a bit of blood, but I get no enjoyment from gore. I'd place the Gothic genre far removed from the horror-as-disgust genre.

Quote from: TristramEvans;799954I think the horror-from-disgust genre is distinct from the horror-from-fear genre.

Sometimes a work will do both, at different times. Matthew Lewis's The Monk attempts to have gross-out moments and moments of psycholigized fear, for example.

QuoteI'd place the Gothic genre far removed from the horror-as-disgust genre.

Well, in the 18th century there was a whole wing of Gothic novels that were all about trying to give the reader a sense of disgust rather than fear. They're pretty mild by 21st century standards, but they caused a lot of moral disapproval at the time.

The way literary critics have tended to sort the Gothic is two place works in one of two camps: Gothic Horror (the stuff that is supposed to inspire disgust) and Gothic Terror (the stuff that is supposed to inspire psychological fear, mystery, etc.) The first is usually thought of as a bodily reaction, the second as a psychological one.

The problem is that the Gothic doesn't actually sort out that easily--you often find both strains at work within a given text.

Quote from: TristramEvans;799954I think the horror-from-disgust genre is distinct from the horror-from-fear genre. Its the difference between an Alfred Hitchcock film vs a torture-porn film.

A bigger difference, for me, is horror that makes a concerted attempt to build atmosphere, a larger mood vs. stuff that just throws out visuals and events hoping for a shock. Atmosphere requires more attention and patience from the author and audience.
I don't mind gore at all if it's serving a purpose beyond trying to shock me or gross me out. But gore on its own is hardly ever scary... it's more likely a release of whatever tensions came before.
Hitchcock wasn't above using shocking images or exciting events... but they generally always added to the larger effect.
There are some movies that got labeled 'torture porn' that I thought were quite good, like Martyrs. The Saw and Hostel movies failed for me because they pulled their punches (they're not nearly as gory/transgressive as they're rep implies) and weren't really about much of anything.

Quote from: misterguignol;799961Sometimes a work will do both, at different times. Matthew Lewis's The Monk attempts to have gross-out moments and moments of psycholigized fear, for example.

I didn't really notice any gross-out moments in The Monk, but its been a while.

QuoteWell, in the 18th century there was a whole wing of Gothic novels that were all about trying to give the reader a sense of disgust rather than fear. They're pretty mild by 21st century standards, but they caused a lot of moral disapproval at the time.

The way literary critics have tended to sort the Gothic is two place works in one of two camps: Gothic Horror (the stuff that is supposed to inspire disgust) and Gothic Terror (the stuff that is supposed to inspire psychological fear, mystery, etc.) The first is usually thought of as a bodily reaction, the second as a psychological one.

The problem is that the Gothic doesn't actually sort out that easily--you often find both strains at work within a given text.

I guess I shuold clarify, its not that gore or the sense of shock/disgust from violence is what distinguishes form, its...how do I put this? When I watched Hostel, and moreso a lot of unrated indy horror films from the 70s, I got the feeling from the really gory and violent scenes that they werent there to scare me, that I was watching the film-maker "get off" on those things. That disgusts me more than what I saw on the screen. I didn't mind the first Saw film, even the first sequel wasnt good, but I found it watchable. By around film 4 or 5 I got the feeling I was watching someone's version of porn (especially the last one that seemed particularly to be all about the director's issues with women more than anything). Violence alone isn't what engenders disgust in me.

But perhaps the distinction Im making isnt a genre one such as just my own tastes.