... think about it there is an "author" I've come to hate and I wouldn't even touch, let alone play, anything "he" has done: Shipman of Outlaw press.

Quote from: artikid;790692... think about it there is an "author" I've come to hate and I wouldn't even touch, let alone play, anything by "he" has done: Shipman of Outlaw press.

I hesitate to insult authors by including Shipman among their ranks, but at this point, I'm shocked he hasn't gotten sued, if not by a singular game company then by a group working in tandem.

For me, a good enough game will get me to overlook even strong dislike for a creator; the problem is, getting me to look at the game in the first place.  I have a lot of things vying for my dollars, so it's pretty hard to get me to overlook that distaste long enough to buy a gaming book.

On the other hand, this has to go beyond disagreement to personal dislike - there are plenty of people I simply disagree with, that doesn't stop me from buying their stuff.

Quote from: Future Villain Band;790703On the other hand, this has to go beyond disagreement to personal dislike - there are plenty of people I simply disagree with, that doesn't stop me from buying their stuff.

  If I were to stop buying stuff from people I'd disagree with, I'd have to cut out the majority of the RPG industry. David Wise can be a truly obnoxious conversative-basher on Facebook (we have mutual friends), but I still enjoy his old Ravenloft work. Jonathan Tweet has done fundraising for an organization I consider actively evil, but while that may make me a little hesitant to buy 13th Age stuff, it's at a far enough remove that I don't feel the need to avoid it completely.

  And while I haven't bought into 5E yet (and may never), Pundit and Zak S's involvement is a very minor portion of that, and even that has more to do with the fact that we differ substantially on what we enjoy about D&D.

  One of the benefits of being Catholic: We had the whole question of formal vs. material, immediate vs. mediate cooperation worked out centuries before Gygax and Arneson ever put ink on a page.

In my experience, artists are such uniform fools and knaves- myself not excepted- that a blanket refusal to buy a toxic ninny's work would deprive me of almost everything I might possibly enjoy. Unless they've managed to personally offend me on a retail level, I see no reason not to do business with them. Attempting to carefully avoid dealing with anyone whose political or social views are antithetical to mine does nothing to improve the world and a great deal toward sealing me off from any ideas I might find uncomfortable.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;790591What is your thoughts on games made by people you hate?

I can't say I hate anyone who makes games. As others have said, hate is too strong a term for me to use regarding any game designers. (Topher is a waste of space, but he's not worth the energy of an emotion like hate.) So far, I haven't found any game material that I like that was made by a designer I dislike, so it's been a total non-issue.

Given I own way more game stuff than I will live long enough to play or run and given there is more stuff being written every day, dislike (or hate) seem like a reasonable filter to use when making decisions about what to acquire or when prioritizing what new games to try.

I like Wagner's music a lot, but some of his beliefs and opinions were quite shitty, and some of his fans were world-class reprehensible. But his music is world-class great. Hitler's paintings on the other hand, look like something done by someone's Uncle Fred. Not awful, but definitely not great art. I suspect that a game designed by Topher would fall, artistically speaking, in the same category as Hitler's paintings. Maybe not awful, but not a great game. But if you found something there to use, go right ahead. Despite using a game he designed, Topher will still find a way to tell you that your GMing is patricarchy and rape-culture supporting, insufficiently diverse, and overly entitled.

I was hesitant to buy Dungeon World when I was under the impression that Vincent Baker was associated with in commercially. When I learned that the creators just borrowed the Apocalypse World engine, I went ahead and bought it with a clear conscience.

I consciously avoid buying stuff from people I do not like, 100%.

Quote from: SineNomine;790708Attempting to carefully avoid dealing with anyone whose political or social views are antithetical to mine does nothing to improve the world and a great deal toward sealing me off from any ideas I might find uncomfortable.

Good point.

Quote from: artikid;790692... think about it there is an "author" I've come to hate and I wouldn't even touch, let alone play, anything "he" has done: Shipman of Outlaw press.

I honestly didn't know Shipman had ever wrote anything himself, as opposed to just nicking stuff from real authors.

I’m not interested in purchasing any art or games or whatever that is pushing an ideology or attitude that I find distasteful, especially if its goal is to bring me around to that point of view. It’s not that I need to be protected from stuff I don’t like, I just don’t think an RPG is the medium I want to deal with this stuff in.

So I got no problem with buying D&D, whatever Gygax’s personal religious beliefs are. I do have a problem with buying a game which has as one of its goals "exposing" me to the writers’ religious values. Same with politics or whatever.

If Topher’s game is a soapbox from which I have to hear about his political views, than I’m not interested. If it’s just a game, then I’ll weigh its merit based on the game alone. Sure some assholeyness may sneak in by osmosis, but I hope I’m clever enough to ignore it.

And let’s differentiate "people who annoy me on the internet" from fascist mass-murdering genocidal dictators. Running a session or two of a game written by Topher =/= displaying a painting by Hitler in my home.

Baker might be a grade-a shitbag, :idunno: but I liked Dogs.  Edwards might be wrong-headed in his gaming ideology, but he's a big Howard fan, so he can't be all bad.
Topher doing a "magic girl" anime game is more than a little creepy.

I wouldn't piss on Shipman if he was on fire.

Quote from: Simlasa;790646I've been known to get cranky at people insistently/repeatedly pointing out Lovecraft's racism (yes he was, no I'm not going to burn my books)... so I suppose it behooves me to ignore the foibles of other creators I actively dislike but who occasionally make good stuff.
Generally I'll go out my way to avoid giving them money though... so no buying Mongoose, GW or Palladium stuff unless it's used.

I think it helps that the guy is dead and there's a temporal distance. Plus none of my money goes to his pockets or in support of his beliefs.

For me, two interesting cases are Axl Rose and Russell Crowe. Both of them are asses, but for some reason I'm able to listen to Axl's music and appreciate it in a way that I can't for Russel Crowe (except for that western he did, which I grudgingly liked).

Still, not fair examples, because all of those people are infinitely more interesting and talented that a dingleberry like Topher.

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Baker and Edwards...hmm. I think I give them a pass because they are interesting to read, even if they say something stupid once in a while.

Quote from: Bren;790709I suspect that a game designed by Topher would fall, artistically speaking, in the same category as Hitler's paintings. Maybe not awful, but not a great game. But if you found something there to use, go right ahead. Despite using a game he designed, Topher will still find a way to tell you that your GMing is patricarchy and rape-culture supporting, insufficiently diverse, and overly entitled.

To be fair, the 21 page piece for Princess Drive is pretty mediocre writing wise, and in some places actively cringe inducing (any of the "quotes" of historical characters in the setting are just plain bad, like, painfully bad), but I liked the underlying ideas and the broad strokes of the setting enough to put my own spin on it. (which will be changing large parts of the background, the neighboring countries, and a few other details. I can't help but tweak everything I run) Hell, being that it is only 21 pages with the rules included (6x9 pages as well iirc), I'm probably going to rewrite the whole section about the world myself for if players want to read, because I think his writing is bad.

The rule ideas though are things I like and are actual thematic to the idea of the game, so good on him for that, even if his actual writing is atrocious. (also the organization of the rules is terrible).

There are maybe two parts where I would say he gets preachy, mostly in the intro, but I can't completely disagree with his assessment there (that most mecha stuff is super about dudes, especially in the source fiction), though I think its funny in that trying to subvert it he has basically made something else that totally already exists, with the strong similarities to Magic Knight Rayearth and Sakura Wars.

It has a political statement, but its not really in your face, and doesn't take the ridiculous turns that Topher does on forums, so I can ignore it in order to play a game about mecha and magical girls with my daughter, which I will admit myself that the game sounds interesting, even if only because its so different than anything I've run in the past.

And yeah, hate is too strong a word. I don't really "hate" anyone (at least not online, there are a few people who have screwed with my real life that I hold a bit of hatred for). Its more of a strong distaste for the way they conduct themselves.

I fully planned to play the game even when I posted the topic, I was just curious mostly if people here (because there is a lot of strong distaste on this board) have hangups about playing things that are made by people they "hate".

Terrible organization mixed with writing that is "mediocre" to "atrocious" and sometimes "cringe inducing" is about what I expected from Topher. Maybe even better than expected.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;790748...but I liked the underlying ideas and the broad strokes of the setting enough to put my own spin on it.

Sounds like you are getting the most out of what good there is there. Good on you.

Quote...I can't completely disagree with his assessment there (that most mecha stuff is super about dudes, especially in the source fiction)...

My first real exposure to mecha anime was the 1980s Bubble Gum Crisis series which had an all-gal team of heroes with a little brother side kick/mechanic. Thus I think his assessment of mecha is about as on target (which is to say low and way to the left) as is most of his assessments about anything. The Knight Sabers team:

Spoiler

QuoteAnd yeah, hate is too strong a word. I don't really "hate" anyone (at least not online, there are a few people who have screwed with my real life that I hold a bit of hatred for). Its more of a strong distaste for the way they conduct themselves.

Yes, there are two people in real life who would be candidates for hatred - and if I still had to deal with them. Fortunately I don't have to deal with them which makes it far easier to maintain my view  of utter contempt. Contempt for them seems healthier for me than hatred.

QuoteI fully planned to play the game even when I posted the topic, I was just curious mostly if people here (because there is a lot of strong distaste on this board) have hangups about playing things that are made by people they "hate".

I haven't done a count, but it seems like most posts have a use what you want attitude.