So I was preparing for a game with my daughter, who is 12, and I'm digging through all the stuff I have on my shelves, stuff I'd bought in pdf, and random free stuff that I had saved.
And I run across a game I had saved a while back for Fate Accelerated called Princess Drive. Its basically a magical girl mecha style game (something similar to the anime Magic Knight Rayearth). The setting is only about 15 pages, just a vague outline, but what is there is enough there that I like to want run it (and I can just slightly adjust things I don't).
I like Fate Accelerated anyway, and the changes made are really thematic to magical girls (like the approaches being "virtues" like love, kindness, trust, etc). And it was something I downloaded for free. Plus it seemed like a game that my daughter would like.
Then I noticed who wrote it. Topher. Now, I don't like Topher. He is about everything wrong with the slacktivist social justice warrior movement. After realizing it, I could even tell in the opening (which I had barely skimmed before).
But really, it doesn't hurt the game itself. I didn't even pay for it so it wasn't like I was giving money to someone I hate. What is your thoughts on games made by people you hate? Do you play them anyway if you like them? Does it sour the game for you entirely?
(Another one for me is Mouse Guard. I like it, though its very narrative so some here might not, but Luke Crane is a huge ass).
I'd generally rather not give them or their product the oxygen of conversation. If I dislike them, it's unlikely I'll like their games; the few authors whose work I would refuse to buy nowadays, due to them being cunts, have a tendency to fill their products with sneering, cuntish bullshit... so why would I ever want to play those games?
As long as it doesn't have that insufferably smug looking pic of topher that he uses as an avatar on every page I guess I could handle it.
The new tendency to an inability to separate a work and a person (where before the person was generally little-known, and a work was more likely evaluated on its own merits) is one of the downsides of the digital age. I still can't believe how many friendships are trashed because one or the other takes extreme offense with memes published on Facebook. From people they've known for years or decades.
People are flawed, quirky, and opinionated. That doesn't mean they can't do good things that others would enjoy.
@EOTB, I think mostly similar. It was more just a nasty reaction to realizing it was written by someone who I dislike.
I still plan to run it, and am pretty excited to run it as well. I was really curious though how other people here react, considering the extremely strong opinions people have here on different personalities.
(I mean, I'm not particularly fond of Pundit either, though I respect that he will let people call him out to his face, but I still find Arrows of Indra interesting.)
It may impact on where I spend my money, but if I got the product for free then the beauty of RPGs is that it is what I make of it at my own table. Having a hated writer or creator stop me using a game I wanted seems like I would be giving more power to said creator.
Quote from: EOTB;790601The new tendency to an inability to separate a work and a person (where before the person was generally little-known, and a work was more likely evaluated on its own merits) is one of the downsides of the digital age. I still can't believe how many friendships are trashed because one or the other takes extreme offense with memes published on Facebook. From people they've known for years or decades.
People are flawed, quirky, and opinionated. That doesn't mean they can't do good things that others would enjoy.
No, you've got it backwards. Now that the gap between creators and consumers is much smaller, we've got more information to decide that we just don't want our money to go to certain people or organizations.
This is a good thing, because as consumers, we are now more informed, we can decide what we want to fund or not... or we can continue to not give a shit. There's more options available now. Options are good.
Nobody (Here) is saying that some creatives shouldn't be able to keep on producing things, even if they are shitty people... but if they are doing things or holding views that people find abhorrant, they're going to lose sales as a result. And that is not censorship - the person is still welcome to do whatever it is that they do - but if they are producing a product that nobody wants for whatever reason, well, tough shit. Just because you have produced something, doesn't magically make you entitled to people buying it.
And sure, they might occasionally produce something worthwhile even in light of their other issues... but there is plenty of other worthwhile content out there to get through. Like, I have hundreds of RPG's out there to get through before I have to even consider the works of some people. Maybe they'll produce a thing I'll like that's free of all their baggage... but it's not exactly keeping me up at night.
Another thing the digital age has given us is a much more casual reason to declare hatred.
Oh look someone on the internet is being a tool- I HATE them!!!
Do you really though?
Hatred is a strong word to apply to a mere source of disagreement or annoyance. Even if I think someone is full of shit and would tell them so to their face, does that really equal real hatred?
I don't think so. For me personally, hatred isn't so casual. I am very pleased to not be currently hating anyone.
One thing unique to the digital age is thinking things are unique to the digital age.
TBH I don't even read the credit page of any RPG I've owned/ran/played. I have zero interest or concern with who writes the game. If it's good, I'll use it, if not, I'll steal the good ideas and use them in another game.
As an addendum, I really do not understand people who have the need to proclaim, quite loudly, that if you buy a game (or anything else) written by someone whose ideas they don't agree with, then you are a Bad Person. In fact, you may be the Worst Sort of Person. At the very least, you Shouldn't Be Putting Money In Their Pockets. Then they gather a flock of Correct Thinkers around them (metaphorically) and they'll all give each other handjobs (also metaphorically, however if they ever got together in person...).
Fuck you - I'll read what I like.
I had to think about this, and in the end I couldn't come up with any game designer I actually hate.
In fact, with one exception (who I won't name because I don't want to cause drama) I can't even think of a game designer I know well enough to dislike. The vast majority of game designers are simply names on a credit page as far as I'm concerned and I couldn't tell you anything about them - either positive or negative - apart from what they've written.
Having said that, I can use other media as an example. I enjoy H.P. Lovecraft despite his blatant racism, and I still have some Gary Glitter on my playlist despite his paedophilia and some Rolf Harris despite the recent revelations about his past sexual assaults.
These things don't stop me enjoying the media they've produced, but they do always remind me of their authors' moral failings when I hear/read them.
I suppose it might be different if it were a case of buying something new by someone I disliked. Then I'd have to consider whether or not I wanted to give them money - and the only time that's ever cropped up was when I wanted to read a book by a particular Evangelical Fundamentalist and Creationist to see for myself what a liar and fraud he was, but didn't want him to profit from my doing so. In that case I bought his book second-hand, so none of the money I spent went to him.
I had a bad business interaction with FFG and have generally avoided their jobs/products ever since.
I've met Geoff Grabowski and chatted with him in some private hangout and thought he was an insufferable ass/idiot, which cooled my enthusiasm for Exalted (to the point of never having bought any of the games, but then I was never a big WoD fan)
Beyond that... behavior might turn me off to trying a product, but if I find I like something, whatever. Unless you are donating proceeds to Puppy Kickers International.
(http://i.imgur.com/Ta7yCMQ.jpg)
Quote from: Werekoala;790616TBH I don't even read the credit page of any RPG I've owned/ran/played. I have zero interest or concern with who writes the game. If it's good, I'll use it, if not, I'll steal the good ideas and use them in another game.
Normally I don't either. The only reason I realized that Topher wrote Princess Drive was because I was looking for a summary sheet I remembered being made and found it in a thread he had made.
I gave up on hate a long time ago, after deciding I was better off without it. Personally I think we'd all be better off without it, but hate turns out to be more than a little addictive, so it's not going away anytime soon. Certainly not in the RPG community.
Having said that, there are a few individuals in the gaming industry I personally dislike a great deal. I still buy/use their products on occasion, for various reasons. OTOH, there are others I don't know personally at all, but I find their work or their opinions objectionable enough that I'll refuse to support them and I don't buy/use their products.
So sometimes I play, sometimes I don't. In neither case does "hate" enter into it.
About fifteen minutes after I started participating on TBP, I realized that Gareth-Michael Skarka was not merely an asshole, but that he sought out to be an asshole, and likely enjoyed being an asshole. He was the first person on whom I'd ever used an IGN button since VBulletin-style forums introduced the feature.
Someone touted a game of his to me, and I just refused: there was no way in creation I was going to put any of my hard-earned money into the pockets of that prick.
There are a lot of good games out there. There's a lot of good product out there. There are many blogs and websites out there filled with the opinion of smart non-jerks. Far more than I have the time to read or play. I am quite happy with using the dickishness of the Skarkas of the world as a content filter.
I've been known to get cranky at people insistently/repeatedly pointing out Lovecraft's racism (yes he was, no I'm not going to burn my books)... so I suppose it behooves me to ignore the foibles of other creators I actively dislike but who occasionally make good stuff.
Generally I'll go out my way to avoid giving them money though... so no buying Mongoose, GW or Palladium stuff unless it's used.
Quote from: Simlasa;790646Generally I'll go out my way to avoid giving them money though... so no buying Mongoose, GW or Palladium stuff unless it's used.
Wait, what's the deal with Mongoose?
Quote from: Ladybird;790609No, you've got it backwards. Now that the gap between creators and consumers is much smaller, we've got more information to decide that we just don't want our money to go to certain people or organizations. This is a good thing, because as consumers, we are now more informed, we can decide what we want to fund or not... or we can continue to not give a shit. There's more options available now. Options are good.
I get people being concerned at funding causes they disagree with, but I don't really worry about with RPGs. People in this business are at best just making enough money to keep making more game stuff. While I know for a fact that Robin Laws supports Canada's covert campaign to annex the United States, I know that as a game designer, he is never going to make enough money to contribute even a token amount to his beloved cause.
Overall, I am biased towards games by designers that I like as people. It just isn't going to stop me from buying games by people is I dislike.
I'll second what the others have said. I don't have time for hate in my life so there's no one I feel that strongly about. Most game designers and book authors are just names to me, I know little about them and mostly don't care.
That said, I can put aside any distaste I have about a writer if I enjoy their books enough. I don't agree with Orson Scott Card concerning gays and his strong religious beliefs but I've enjoyed the first two Ender books and look forward to reading the third. I don't like Terry Goodkind's Randian beliefs but I've mostly enjoyed his Sword of Truth books. Larry Niven may have been an adviser to Ronald Reagan on the silly SDI plan but that doesn't stop me from reading his novels. And so on.
Quote from: Shipyard Locked;790647Wait, what's the deal with Mongoose?
Old matters I won't dredge up... basically I just don't like the company and how they've done business.
Quote from: Blacky the Blackball;790618Having said that, I can use other media as an example. I enjoy H.P. Lovecraft despite his blatant racism, and I still have some Gary Glitter on my playlist despite his paedophilia and some Rolf Harris despite the recent revelations about his past sexual assaults.
These things don't stop me enjoying the media they've produced, but they do always remind me of their authors' moral failings when I hear/read them.
.
i think it depends as to whether it was two little boys or his dire cover of stairway to heaven
A good game is a good game, I couldn't give a toss about the person who wrote it. I find games I actually like so rare that I don't have the luxury of using what I think about the author as a criterion. Furthermore, I won't "support" a shit game just because I think the writer is a worthy person.
I don't think I could enjoy playing or running anything written by an rpgnet SJW, no. I don't think I could GM/play Ron Edwards' Sorcerer! either, though I use 'Sorceror & Sword' as a resource for normal (=decent, right-thinking) :D games.
OTOH I think I could enjoy playing games written by Kevin Simbieda, even though he is a huge ass. And I've been enjoying playing Warhammer Fantasy Battle with my boy recently, despite hating Games Workshop - but I was careful to buy second-hand copies of out of print material, so as not to directly give them any money. I think the difference there is that I have nothing against GW authors, it's the company that is evil. Whereas the evil of someone like Topher is personal, and is likely to stain his work.
Quote from: Ravenswing;790645About fifteen minutes after I started participating on TBP, I realized that Gareth-Michael Skarka was not merely an asshole, but that he sought out to be an asshole, and likely enjoyed being an asshole. He was the first person on whom I'd ever used an IGN button since VBulletin-style forums introduced the feature.
Someone touted a game of his to me, and I just refused: there was no way in creation I was going to put any of my hard-earned money into the pockets of that prick.
There are a lot of good games out there. There's a lot of good product out there. There are many blogs and websites out there filled with the opinion of smart non-jerks. Far more than I have the time to read or play. I am quite happy with using the dickishness of the Skarkas of the world as a content filter.
Yes. The second-worst game I ever bought was d20 Mars (worst was Gygax's Cyborg Commando). If I had realised that GMS was the author and what an asshole he was, I could have worked out that his game would be garbage and not wasted my money.
But I think "Skarka is a dick - his game will be crap" filtering is a bit different from the OP's suggestion that a morally repulsive author makes a game unenjoyable, whereas if you didn't know the author you might enjoy the game. Eg there are only a very few hints in "Sorceror & Sword" concerning Ron Edwards' character. You have to go to his Forge posts and other Internet postings to really see him for what he is.
Quote from: jibbajibba;790667i think it depends as to whether it was two little boys or his dire cover of stairway to heaven
Is a dire cover like a normal cover but bigger and fiercer?
Quote from: Blacky the Blackball;790682Is a dire cover like a normal cover but bigger and fiercer?
Stairway is already a touch over 8 minutes, does it need to be bigger?
In general if I know someone who wrote an RPG is a dick I'll be a little uneasy playing it and alot less likely to play it.
If I know those involved are raging dicks or outright crooks then no. I dont care if its the most perfect RPG ever crafted by man. No.
On my general dislike list is just about anything from White Wolf or especially their Swords & Sorcery/Arthaus side. I'll play Aberrant and Racer Knights of Falconus because I still havent a clue who wrote those. Anything by Baugh is likely a flat NO.
SJG is another one on the irk list due to some dirty stunts pulled by them around 2001.
FGU is a company I wont buy from due to their treatment of the original writers.
Sanguine and everything from them is alot higher on my dislike list. I've had bad experiences with the company before and I do not like how they treat customers. This and some of their other stunts make them fairly low.
Games Workshop is an odd one. Up to a point I had great dealings with them. Past 2000 though it became increasingly evident that the company was corrupt. I feel sorry for anyone still shackled to that. Playing the games pre-2000 makes me occasionally uneasy because Im aware that this was the dieing light of a company in the process of going straight to hell.
Same for WOTC. Even moreso because its been a rollercoaster of ups and downs. In one stroke WOTC will do something great, and in the next they will be competing with GW for title of dirtiest gaming company. Or at least the stupidest on earth. 5th ed I'm getting because I participated in the playtest and feedback and one other bemusing contribution. For now at least the rollercoaster is on the upswing. But I dread the inevitible plunge into whatever new stupid WOTC embraces that ruins it all.
Quote from: Simlasa;790658Old matters I won't dredge up... basically I just don't like the company and how they've done business.
That is the strangest thing. I have all of one product from Mongoose I think, if even that. But there is something about the company that feels just that fraction off?
Pazio is another one that causes that "feeeeeeling"...
Weird...
I'll play just about everything. If I don't like the game it's really unlikely I'll play it again.
So I end up disliking some author's work or ideas about gaming, but hate is too strong a word.
Is the author a dick? Most people are, yet they manage to do good things as well.
See the RPGPundit? I think he's obnoxious, something of a bully and an attention-whore in his RPGPundit persona.
Yet he has put up this place that's kind of a haven of free-speech RPGwise, and also writes the occasional good review or article.
Do I hate him? No. Like him? No, he gets on my nerves about 65% of time. Yet he has done good things IMO and that's why I hang around here.
So back to square one: Do I like the game? Then I'll play it. No? I won't.
... think about it there is an "author" I've come to hate and I wouldn't even touch, let alone play, anything "he" has done: Shipman of Outlaw press.
Quote from: artikid;790692... think about it there is an "author" I've come to hate and I wouldn't even touch, let alone play, anything by "he" has done: Shipman of Outlaw press.
I hesitate to insult authors by including Shipman among their ranks, but at this point, I'm shocked he hasn't gotten sued, if not by a singular game company then by a group working in tandem.
For me, a good enough game will get me to overlook even strong dislike for a creator; the problem is, getting me to look at the game in the first place. I have a lot of things vying for my dollars, so it's pretty hard to get me to overlook that distaste long enough to buy a gaming book.
On the other hand, this has to go beyond disagreement to personal dislike - there are plenty of people I simply disagree with, that doesn't stop me from buying their stuff.
Quote from: Future Villain Band;790703On the other hand, this has to go beyond disagreement to personal dislike - there are plenty of people I simply disagree with, that doesn't stop me from buying their stuff.
If I were to stop buying stuff from people I'd disagree with, I'd have to cut out the majority of the RPG industry. :) David Wise can be a truly obnoxious conversative-basher on Facebook (we have mutual friends), but I still enjoy his old Ravenloft work. Jonathan Tweet has done fundraising for an organization I consider actively evil, but while that may make me a little hesitant to buy 13th Age stuff, it's at a far enough remove that I don't feel the need to avoid it completely.
And while I haven't bought into 5E yet (and may never), Pundit and Zak S's involvement is a very minor portion of that, and even that has more to do with the fact that we differ substantially on what we enjoy about D&D.
One of the benefits of being Catholic: We had the whole question of formal vs. material, immediate vs. mediate cooperation worked out centuries before Gygax and Arneson ever put ink on a page. :D
In my experience, artists are such uniform fools and knaves- myself not excepted- that a blanket refusal to buy a toxic ninny's work would deprive me of almost everything I might possibly enjoy. Unless they've managed to personally offend me on a retail level, I see no reason not to do business with them. Attempting to carefully avoid dealing with anyone whose political or social views are antithetical to mine does nothing to improve the world and a great deal toward sealing me off from any ideas I might find uncomfortable.
Quote from: Emperor Norton;790591What is your thoughts on games made by people you hate?
I can't say I hate anyone who makes games. As others have said, hate is too strong a term for me to use regarding any game designers. (Topher is a waste of space, but he's not worth the energy of an emotion like hate.) So far, I haven't found any game material that I like that was made by a designer I dislike, so it's been a total non-issue.
Given I own way more game stuff than I will live long enough to play or run and given there is more stuff being written every day, dislike (or hate) seem like a reasonable filter to use when making decisions about what to acquire or when prioritizing what new games to try.
I like Wagner's music a lot, but some of his beliefs and opinions were quite shitty, and some of his fans were world-class reprehensible. But his music is world-class great. Hitler's paintings on the other hand, look like something done by someone's Uncle Fred. Not awful, but definitely not great art. I suspect that a game designed by Topher would fall, artistically speaking, in the same category as Hitler's paintings. Maybe not awful, but not a great game. But if you found something there to use, go right ahead. Despite using a game he designed, Topher will still find a way to tell you that your GMing is patricarchy and rape-culture supporting, insufficiently diverse, and overly entitled.
I was hesitant to buy Dungeon World when I was under the impression that Vincent Baker was associated with in commercially. When I learned that the creators just borrowed the Apocalypse World engine, I went ahead and bought it with a clear conscience.
I consciously avoid buying stuff from people I do not like, 100%.
Quote from: SineNomine;790708Attempting to carefully avoid dealing with anyone whose political or social views are antithetical to mine does nothing to improve the world and a great deal toward sealing me off from any ideas I might find uncomfortable.
Good point.
Quote from: artikid;790692... think about it there is an "author" I've come to hate and I wouldn't even touch, let alone play, anything "he" has done: Shipman of Outlaw press.
I honestly didn't know Shipman had ever wrote anything himself, as opposed to just nicking stuff from real authors.
I’m not interested in purchasing any art or games or whatever that is pushing an ideology or attitude that I find distasteful, especially if its goal is to bring me around to that point of view. It’s not that I need to be protected from stuff I don’t like, I just don’t think an RPG is the medium I want to deal with this stuff in.
So I got no problem with buying D&D, whatever Gygax’s personal religious beliefs are. I do have a problem with buying a game which has as one of its goals "exposing" me to the writers’ religious values. Same with politics or whatever.
If Topher’s game is a soapbox from which I have to hear about his political views, than I’m not interested. If it’s just a game, then I’ll weigh its merit based on the game alone. Sure some assholeyness may sneak in by osmosis, but I hope I’m clever enough to ignore it.
And let’s differentiate "people who annoy me on the internet" from fascist mass-murdering genocidal dictators. Running a session or two of a game written by Topher =/= displaying a painting by Hitler in my home.
Baker might be a grade-a shitbag, :idunno: but I liked Dogs. Edwards might be wrong-headed in his gaming ideology, but he's a big Howard fan, so he can't be all bad.
Topher doing a "magic girl" anime game is more than a little creepy.
I wouldn't piss on Shipman if he was on fire.
Quote from: Simlasa;790646I've been known to get cranky at people insistently/repeatedly pointing out Lovecraft's racism (yes he was, no I'm not going to burn my books)... so I suppose it behooves me to ignore the foibles of other creators I actively dislike but who occasionally make good stuff.
Generally I'll go out my way to avoid giving them money though... so no buying Mongoose, GW or Palladium stuff unless it's used.
I think it helps that the guy is dead and there's a temporal distance. Plus none of my money goes to his pockets or in support of his beliefs.
For me, two interesting cases are Axl Rose and Russell Crowe. Both of them are asses, but for some reason I'm able to listen to Axl's music and appreciate it in a way that I can't for Russel Crowe (except for that western he did, which I grudgingly liked).
Still, not fair examples, because all of those people are infinitely more interesting and talented that a dingleberry like Topher.
---
Baker and Edwards...hmm. I think I give them a pass because they are interesting to read, even if they say something stupid once in a while.
Quote from: Bren;790709I suspect that a game designed by Topher would fall, artistically speaking, in the same category as Hitler's paintings. Maybe not awful, but not a great game. But if you found something there to use, go right ahead. Despite using a game he designed, Topher will still find a way to tell you that your GMing is patricarchy and rape-culture supporting, insufficiently diverse, and overly entitled.
To be fair, the 21 page piece for Princess Drive is pretty mediocre writing wise, and in some places actively cringe inducing (any of the "quotes" of historical characters in the setting are just plain bad, like, painfully bad), but I liked the underlying ideas and the broad strokes of the setting enough to put my own spin on it. (which will be changing large parts of the background, the neighboring countries, and a few other details. I can't help but tweak everything I run) Hell, being that it is only 21 pages with the rules included (6x9 pages as well iirc), I'm probably going to rewrite the whole section about the world myself for if players want to read, because I think his writing is bad.
The rule ideas though are things I like and are actual thematic to the idea of the game, so good on him for that, even if his actual writing is atrocious. (also the organization of the rules is terrible).
There are maybe two parts where I would say he gets preachy, mostly in the intro, but I can't completely disagree with his assessment there (that most mecha stuff is super about dudes, especially in the source fiction), though I think its funny in that trying to subvert it he has basically made something else that totally already exists, with the strong similarities to Magic Knight Rayearth and Sakura Wars.
It has a political statement, but its not really in your face, and doesn't take the ridiculous turns that Topher does on forums, so I can ignore it in order to play a game about mecha and magical girls with my daughter, which I will admit myself that the game sounds interesting, even if only because its so different than anything I've run in the past.
And yeah, hate is too strong a word. I don't really "hate" anyone (at least not online, there are a few people who have screwed with my real life that I hold a bit of hatred for). Its more of a strong distaste for the way they conduct themselves.
I fully planned to play the game even when I posted the topic, I was just curious mostly if people here (because there is a lot of strong distaste on this board) have hangups about playing things that are made by people they "hate".
Terrible organization mixed with writing that is "mediocre" to "atrocious" and sometimes "cringe inducing" is about what I expected from Topher. Maybe even better than expected.
Quote from: Emperor Norton;790748...but I liked the underlying ideas and the broad strokes of the setting enough to put my own spin on it.
Sounds like you are getting the most out of what good there is there. Good on you.
Quote...I can't completely disagree with his assessment there (that most mecha stuff is super about dudes, especially in the source fiction)...
My first real exposure to mecha anime was the 1980s Bubble Gum Crisis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubblegum_Crisis)series which had an all-gal team of heroes with a little brother side kick/mechanic. Thus I think his assessment of mecha is about as on target (which is to say low and way to the left) as is most of his assessments about anything. The Knight Sabers team:
Spoiler
(https://warosu.org/data/tg/img/0312/49/1396795011007.jpg)
QuoteAnd yeah, hate is too strong a word. I don't really "hate" anyone (at least not online, there are a few people who have screwed with my real life that I hold a bit of hatred for). Its more of a strong distaste for the way they conduct themselves.
Yes, there are two people in real life who would be candidates for hatred - and if I still had to deal with them. Fortunately I don't have to deal with them which makes it far easier to maintain my view of utter contempt. Contempt for them seems healthier for me than hatred.
QuoteI fully planned to play the game even when I posted the topic, I was just curious mostly if people here (because there is a lot of strong distaste on this board) have hangups about playing things that are made by people they "hate".
I haven't done a count, but it seems like most posts have a use what you want attitude.
Quote from: Bren;790756My first real exposure to mecha anime was the 1980s Bubble Gum Crisis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bubblegum_Crisis)series which had an all-gal team of heroes with a little brother side kick/mechanic. Thus I think his assessment of mecha is about as on target (which is to say low and way to the left) as is most of his assessments about anything. The Knight Sabers team:
Spoiler
(https://warosu.org/data/tg/img/0312/49/1396795011007.jpg)
Why I said most. Magic Knight Rayearth and Sakura Wars being similar (though the "leader" in Sakura Wars was a guy who somehow had enough spiritual energy to pilot one). (And also the irony that he created something that did already exist, even if there wasn't as much of it as male hero mecha fiction)
But I mean, look around the mecha genre as a whole, Gundam, Macross, Mazinger, Getter Robo, even series that have a lot to appeal to female viewers (such as Visions of Escaflowne) feature the hero pilots as male.
Though thinking back on it, I will say that mecha anime definitely is leaning more towards equal than I initially was thinking. FMP! had 1/3 of the main pilots as a woman, Code Geass featured several female pilots, Eva of course features more female than male pilots, Nadesico has 3 and 3, but of the 3 male ones, one is introduced halfway through, and one dies in the first 2 episodes. But even going through those, the main character of FMP!: male, the main character of Code Geass: Male, the main character of Nadesico: Male, the main character of Eva: Male.
I think really it seems like you end up with either all female (BB Crisis, Sakura Wars, Magic Knight Rayearth) a bunch of dudes (a lot of super robot anime, Gundam for the most part), or the main dude and some side ladies (Nadesico, Eva).
I still wouldn't say there is a TON of mecha anime featuring female main protags, but its definitely out there.
Quote from: Emperor Norton;790758I still wouldn't say there is a TON of mecha anime featuring female main protags, but its definitely out there.
I'm sure my sample is skewed. But of the Japanese series with mecha that I recall watching and enjoying it's 50% female. Battletech - what I recall of it, seemed more male dominated, but included quite a few important female mech pilots and leaders. But as I wouldn't describe myself as a big fan of mecha (or a big mecha fan ;)) one should take my POV with a grain of salt.
Quote from: CRKrueger;790729Topher doing a "magic girl" anime game is more than a little creepy.
If you value your sanity, do not image search "magic girl anime" without a safe search filter. That is more than a little creepy, knowing what he was looking at.
Someone upthread mentioned FFG. This is another odd one. Friend of mine wont touch their product after some incident with their forums. Personally after seeing them actually opt in some game designers and then steal their game system. I have had alot less interest in getting anything from them since.
Once upon a time, I had a strong dislike for David Hill based on some RPG shit that happened some years ago on a site where he and I played. I am willing to let that slide now on account of it being RPG shit which I confess I might have overreacted to, but I will not let slide that his frequent calling of people "idiots" (even for such simple reasons as trying to enact an in game assassination of his PC for valid IC reasons) speaks worlds of his apparent arrogance.
Now, as I have said, I have gotten over a lot of that past stuff, because it is just that. Past stuff. RPG shit. Stuff that doesn't matter. And since then, his name has popped up in the credits of the vast majority of second edition nWoD releases. His actual contributions are actually interesting, and have fixed some glaring issues which were present in the first edition. Some contributions might even be seen as self serving, but I would sooner a writer have a passion for what they write, than simply churn out some half assed bullshit, and it's not like he'll be the only one playing that particular clan/covenant/faction/whatever.
I was even ready and willing to play under him on Wanton when he ran his Tokyo set Blood and Smoke game, and was happily doing so until he got busy and left the game in the hands of a player who had a less than acceptable grasp of the rules, or ST attitude. A conversation with another player did make me consider that with it being a new edition, not everyone was going to be as knowledgeable about the rules as I assume I am, but that's another story and it did give me time to reflect.
But, I digress. I still think David is arrogant. And some of his D&D grudge has even been slung around the Wanton Wicked lobby, though I didn't understand (or give a shit about) the reasons behind it till I joined these forums. However, I enjoy his contributions to Onyx Path products, and I shall continue to use them so long as the current trend of second edition releases stays the course.
It's a tricky question, personally, whether I'm willing to buy a game written by someone I don't like.
Generally speaking, if there's several writers involved it is less of a problem. Particularly if a number of the other writers are people I have some respect for. I have some Cortex+ books that involved people I don't really like but there are others who also worked on those books that I do hold in high regard, such as Jack Norris and Rob Wieland. So I didn't have any qualms with getting Marvel Heroic, Firefly or the Hacker's Guide.
If I find someone irritating, who is solely or largely responsible for a game I'm interested in, that could put me off buying a product but, more often than not, it won't. If this wasn't the case then I would never have picked up Burning Wheel, Sorcerer or any number of Palladium books.
The real issue, as others have touched upon, is whether or not I have a personal problem with a writer or designer. Topher is a great example. He strikes me as an elitist, intellectual snob who enjoys "putting people in their place" and belittling others and sometimes resorts to unpleasant tactics in order to do this. Bullying other people basically. These traits alone might not stop me buying something he created though. What would definitely stop me would be my personal interactions with him. Sure, there haven't been many of these interactions but in all of them he's been condescending and snarky towards me at best. I wouldn't buy from a shop where the staff treated me that way and I won't buy from him either. As a result I won't be buying his Rosemont Bay game, despite an interest in it's premise, or any other he produces.
I'm not going to waste time getting worked up about games to the point where I "hate" people though.
If someone is right or wrong about something has nothing to do with whether I like or dislike them.
The two are completely separate things. I don't quite understand what people imagine the connection to them is; I suppose its a function of cancerous post-modern thinking that suggests that TRUTH is somehow a matter of opinion or personal taste.
There's what you like and don't like, and what's Right and Wrong. Those aren't even on an axis with each other; there is no causal relationship between those two spectrums whatsoever. Someone you like could be Right, someone you dislike Wrong, and there's no actual connection between those things.
Now, it can happen that you end up liking someone because they're usually right and say insightful things, or disliking someone because they usually say stupid things and are generally wrong. But they're not right BECAUSE you like them, and can sometimes be wrong about specific things; or people who are usually wrong can occasionally end up being right about something.
I can think of more games that I do not want to play because of the fans associated with them than I can think of games I do not want to play or buy because of the authors. But there are a few authors that I think are real assholes who do some good work or have some good subject knowledge.
I love Spider-man. Really love him. Grew up with him, slept in beds with sheets featuring him, and spent the better part of a decade collecting every single comic of his (Yep, even THAT one).
I hate Disney. I despise every aspect of that company, everything they stand for, I find their business practices abhorrent, their films abominations, and I think Walt himself was a tool of epic proportions.
Disney now owns Spider-man.
It's a conundrum.
OTOH, if I were you I'd just run Tri-Stat's Sailor Moon rpg. Its damn awesome.
Quote from: S'mon;790680But I think "Skarka is a dick - his game will be crap" filtering is a bit different from the OP's suggestion that a morally repulsive author makes a game unenjoyable, whereas if you didn't know the author you might enjoy the game. Eg there are only a very few hints in "Sorceror & Sword" concerning Ron Edwards' character. You have to go to his Forge posts and other Internet postings to really see him for what he is.
Mm, but that wasn't the filtering I claimed to use. I have no idea, in fact, whether GMS is a good game designer or not -- I've never bothered to glance at one of his works. For all I know he's a brilliant one.
I know the notion sometimes bites me in the ass. I had the famous mystery writer Robert Parker as a creative writing professor, many a long moon ago. The class was a near-complete waste of time, no one learned jack shit, and in consequence it was over twenty years before I troubled myself to read anything by Parker. My loss, because he was an excellent storyteller who wrote the most quintessentially Bostonian novels ever penned. What I didn't known as a 1970s college student, of course, was that Parker hated teaching, only did it to pay the bills, got the post because Northeastern University in the 70s was a blue-collar commuter school desperate for any star power on the faculty they could wrangle, and quit as soon as his book sales permitted.
Quote from: Emperor Norton;790591What is your thoughts on games made by people you hate? Do you play them anyway if you like them? Does it sour the game for you entirely?
I don't know about hate. But if I don't like the politics of a game designer, I don't buy their game. So I don't know if I'd like their game or not.
It's just a game. As long as it stays a game, and it's good, I don't let it bother me.
I'm actually surprised by how many people pay attention to who writes something before they check it out.
Other than specific instances where the writer was one of the things the marketing of the game was selling off of (Numenera), or the dudes name is huge on the cover (HERO) I rarely know who wrote what I play before I check out the book.
The only reason I even realized this time was I saw him talking about it when I was looking for supplemental materials for it.
My thoughts on this topic are the following : since the deeds and personality of the author of a book are not very relevant to my enjoyment of it, the way I feel about them should not prevent me from buying their stuff, e. g. : I am not very fond of David A Hill and Filamena Young internet personas but the two of them have become proeminent OPP freelancers. Since I like theirs products (I'm more a fan of the WW era but whatever ...), I'm liable to buy a book they wrote. Fortunally, the new stuff they are doing do not bring someting new comparing to the older editions of oWoD and nWoD, so I will probably buy more things.
Quote from: Emperor Norton;791453I'm actually surprised by how many people pay attention to who writes something before they check it out.
Other than specific instances where the writer was one of the things the marketing of the game was selling off of (Numenera), or the dudes name is huge on the cover (HERO) I rarely know who wrote what I play before I check out the book.
The only reason I even realized this time was I saw him talking about it when I was looking for supplemental materials for it.
The Internet helps us learn more about a game writer. Whereas before, we only saw their name on a shipping box (maybe).
Quote from: yabaziou;791500My thoughts on this topic are the following : since the deeds and personality of the author of a book are not very relevant to my enjoyment of it, the way I feel about them should not prevent me from buying their stuff, e. g. : I am not very fond of David A Hill and Filamena Young internet personas but the two of them have become proeminent OPP freelancers. Since I like theirs products (I'm more a fan of the WW era but whatever ...), I'm liable to buy a book they wrote. Fortunally, the new stuff they are doing do not bring someting new comparing to the older editions of oWoD and nWoD, so I will probably buy more things.
I don't like seeing a writer's agenda bleed through into some aspect of their game.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;791556I don't like seeing a writer's agenda bleed through into some aspect of their game.
I would have said it depends on the agenda (humanism, gender & racial equity, against jingoism, etc) but most of the time the agenda injected into game is too caricatural and the introduction of the said agenda is done in an unsubtle and unclever way that do not make it any good.
Some RPG forums have an agenda also. Your posts have to match their ideology. This forum is almost a one-of-a-kind, or last-of-its-kind.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;791642Some RPG forums have an agenda also. Your posts have to match their ideology. This forum is almost a one-of-a-kind, or last-of-its-kind.
If you are speaking about the Rpgnet Forum, we all know their agenda : promoting/making you buy the stuff that Shannon Appelcline, the other owner, and the administration/moderation staff have for sell. It is all about the bottom line and the political agenda is just a charade (the fact that Ettin, one of the most annoying trolls in RPG internet discussions, is a moderator is for me a glaring piece of evidence of this state of being).
But I do agree that the Rpgsite forum administration/moderation staff is vastly more interested in discussion about RPGs and other gaming stuff that selling their stuff, even if they will not object if you do buy someting from them.
And you will not get ban because you do not share The Pundit's views on RPG or gaming (which is something I rather like about him).
The author being an asshole and the author trying to convince you that Cambodian death camps are a good thing are quite different things.
I sure as hell wouldn't buy RPGS that push a nazi or stalinist agenda, but I've bought stuff from people whose religious and political views are quite different from mine without a second thought.
I've worked with some of those people too, although never on a project that pushed some ideology I don't like. That I could not do.
As Sinenomine said I don't think insulating oneself from the world is a good thing.
Quote from: yabaziou;791644If you are speaking about the Rpgnet Forum, we all know their agenda : promoting/make you buy the stuff that Shannon Appelcline, the other owner, and the administration/moderation staff have for sell. It is all about the bottom line and the political agenda is just a charade (the fact that Ettin, one of the most annoying troll on RPG internet discussions, is a moderation is for me a glaring piece of evidence of this state of being).
This is true, and I have heard Appelcline likes it the way it is and will keep it so as long as it makes them money.
The art is not the artist. The art can be good or bad completely independent of the artist who can be good or bad. I generally ignore the author. If I like the product, I like the product, and that has no relationship to what I think of the author.
Quote from: dragoner;791675This is true, and I have heard Appelcline likes it the way it is and will keep it so as long as it makes them money.
I'm glad that you share my assessment of the RPGnet situation. I'm think Zak S. shared with us some e-mails where Shannon stated in no uncertained terms that he was quite happy with the way his mod staff handled its charge (And I had reread the Nibovian Wife and found that the Rpgnet mod staff behaved like a bunch of witless fools in this threas, especially Stephen Lea who wrote stuff which made him sound like a pretentious and petty man, jealous of Monte Cook accomplishments. Man, Exalted is jsut an anime expy of D&D and probably would better work with the D20 system ...).
But this will not prevent me from posting there and reading it, even if I definitly prefer the mood of the forum here.
Quote from: yabaziou;791704I'm glad that you share my assessment of the RPGnet situation. I'm think Zak S. shared with us some e-mails where Shannon stated in no uncertained terms that he was quite happy with the way his mod staff handled its charge (And I had reread the Nibovian Wife and found that the Rpgnet mod staff behaved like a bunch of witless fools in this threas, especially Stephen Lea who wrote stuff which made him sound like a pretentious and petty man, jealous of Monte Cook accomplishments.
I've seen that from Zak, and heard similar from other sources more knowledgeable than me on the subject. Ultimately, it is what it is.
Of course it is in their interests to tear down other game companies, even if surreptitiously - clandestinely. The insurgent swims in the general population like a fish, of course business knows this; I have an hardback red and gold edition of the Art of War in my office.
IMHO, they should reread the Art of War (maybe they should buy an american language translation ans stop pretending that they could read ancient chinese ^_^) and also read the Myamoto Musashi book by the way, because theirs "tactics" are at beast childish and at worst ineffective. Hell, I have bought a copy of Lords of Olympus and plans to buy an copy of an Red an Pleasant Land as soon as James Raggi has sorted out the situation.
Quote from: yabaziou;791711IMHO, they should reread the Art of War (maybe they should buy an american language translation ans stop pretending that they could read ancient chinese ^_^) and also read the Myamoto Musashi book by the way, because theirs "tactics" are at beast childish and at worst ineffective. Hell, I have bought a copy of Lords of Olympus and plans to buy an copy of an Red an Pleasant Land as soon as James Raggi has sorted out the situation.
I prefer Musashi -
"In the void is virtue, and no evil. Wisdom has existance, principle has existance, the Way has existance, spirit is nothingness."Not that Sun Tzu is bad, there is also the Way of the General.
People rise to their highest level of incompetence, the rpgnet staff show that in an exemplary manner.
Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;791642Some RPG forums have an agenda also. Your posts have to match their ideology. This forum is almost a one-of-a-kind, or last-of-its-kind.
Yup. It also has one feature G+ doesn't have either; while there, theoretically you can say what you want about RPGs, there is a strong tendency there to form little reality-bubbles of only people you agree with, either actively (by blocking anyone who says stuff you don't like) or passively (by tending only to add people who say stuff you do like).
Here you are at least to some extent required to put up with people who say thngs you disagree with, and I think that's a feature, not a bug.
Quote from: Emperor Norton;791453I'm actually surprised by how many people pay attention to who writes something before they check it out.
I used to be that way very much. The names of the designers and such were just names and disconnected from the game.
Then in the mid 90s I got fully into the gaming and partially into the comic biz and actually attending conventions regularly and whooo... thrown into the deep end of the shark pool was I! All of a suden these names had faces and personalities. Pretty fun overall. But some of those personalities it later became apparent were not all that nice. After that I started paying more attention to actually who a particular designer was.
Eventually I had some problems with various companies and started scrutinizing who the hell was on the payroll and was this an isolated incident or part of something larger. Games Workshop, WOTC, White Wolf/S&S and GOO were some that proved to be problematic on a larger scale than ever expected.
I think the internet has at least done some good in that it has shown some designers true personalities to the public where before it was just the unsubstantiated word of this or that nobody. Its also made it alot harder for companies and designers to cover up their dirty little secrets.
Quote from: Mistwell;791687The art is not the artist. The art can be good or bad completely independent of the artist who can be good or bad. I generally ignore the author. If I like the product, I like the product, and that has no relationship to what I think of the author.
Problem is. I know some rather good artists. Who happen to also rip off customers, or be running some pretty dirty routines on the sly. I've had to cut off a few now who have gone bad. Their art may be top notch but I am sure as hell not putting any more money into their pockets.
I also know a few who are just raging jerks on one subject or another. Those I tend to avoid too simply because they treat people like dirt and I am not backing that sort of behavior. I dont care if you are the next Caldwell. Dont treat the customer like dirt.