Inspiration=the carrot mentality.  Probably the right approach to get player investment but for some reason reminds me of students who want extra credit for fulfilling expectations.

Quote from: honesttiago;766012Inspiration=the carrot mentality.  Probably the right approach to get player investment but for some reason reminds me of students who want extra credit for fulfilling expectations.

Exactly. Playing well is its own reward. I prefer a Fate re-roll once per session.

Quote from: honesttiago;766012Inspiration=the carrot mentality.  Probably the right approach to get player investment but for some reason reminds me of students who want extra credit for fulfilling expectations.

More like above and beyond. I think it was Napoleon who said: "Given enough ribbon, I can conquer the world." In regards to giving awards and medals for bravery in battle. I regard the award of inspiration similarly, but it is a GM fiat-ish thing.

You know, I can actually see the intent behind the mechanics for ideals/bonds/flaws.

It's no secret that the most recent iteration of D&D was all about combat tactics, and there didn't seem to be a lot of effort put into roleplaying.  Most gaming sessions, because combat took so freaking long, comprised 90% of the actual time spent moving pieces around and not doing interaction or exploration.

So there were a lot of players introduced on the 4e model who never really spent a lot of time actually role-playing.  So in order to incentive these players and to show them what they were missing, 5e has a hard coded rule that emphasizes the benefits of those other two pillars that were overshadowed by combat tactics.

Granted, it's a part of the game I'll never use, as like many have said, good role-playing is its own reward, but I can see why they went there.

Most of my group consists of experienced gamers, and even the less experienced ones have caught on very quickly, so I don't think we'll really need any extra incentive for the role-playing of personality traits or bonds.

And, at least for the time being, there are enough other new or modified things to adjust to, that we'll probably pass on this particular ornament.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;766025You know, I can actually see the intent behind the mechanics for ideals/bonds/flaws.

It's no secret that the most recent iteration of D&D was all about combat tactics, and there didn't seem to be a lot of effort put into roleplaying.  Most gaming sessions, because combat took so freaking long, comprised 90% of the actual time spent moving pieces around and not doing interaction or exploration.

So there were a lot of players introduced on the 4e model who never really spent a lot of time actually role-playing.  So in order to incentive these players and to show them what they were missing, 5e has a hard coded rule that emphasizes the benefits of those other two pillars that were overshadowed by combat tactics.

Granted, it's a part of the game I'll never use, as like many have said, good role-playing is its own reward, but I can see why they went there.

It's a classic Forge technique.  Teach those filthy little Gamists how to be good Narrativists through Pavlovian reward mechanisms for thinking about their character's story.  So we get RoS Passions-Lite.

Quote from: CRKrueger;766085It's a classic Forge technique.  Teach those filthy little Gamists how to be good Narrativists through Pavlovian reward mechanisms for thinking about their character's story.  So we get RoS Passions-Lite.

I never thought I'd see another human being get infected with Pundit's ridiculous paranoia.

Quote from: LibraryLass;766187I never thought I'd see another human being get infected with Pundit's ridiculous paranoia.

Yeah, I don't think it's nearly as tin foil hat as that.  I just think it's a natural result of having a game where 95% of the actual game play was on tactical combat, and therefore role-playing for exploration and interaction were largely ignored or not part of the game, and most certainly didn't reward the PCs for it.

So I see the intent of having that mechanic, even if it's not a mechanic I personally like.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;766191Yeah, I don't think it's nearly as tin foil hat as that.  I just think it's a natural result of having a game where 95% of the actual game play was on tactical combat, and therefore role-playing for exploration and interaction were largely ignored or not part of the game, and most certainly didn't reward the PCs for it.

So I see the intent of having that mechanic, even if it's not a mechanic I personally like.

I like the mechanic but understand why some would dislike it. But like the whole LBGT paragraph it doesn't hurt a thing and is probably needed because there will be plenty of players coming in that either never played or only played 4e which as we know largely ignored exploration and interaction to focus on combat.

Quote from: Marleycat;766195I like the mechanic but understand why some would dislike it. But like the whole LBGT paragraph it doesn't hurt a thing and is probably needed because there will be plenty of players coming in that either never played or only played 4e which as we know largely ignored exploration and interaction to focus on combat.

Well, unlike the LGBT paragraph, ideals/flaws/bonds is actually a pretty big baked in rule.  That's a significant difference.  With my own group it's a non issue because they all will be OK with ignoring that rule.  I just need to make sure I state it up front that I won't be playing that rule when I do FLGS games.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;766199Well, unlike the LGBT paragraph, ideals/flaws/bonds is actually a pretty big baked in rule.  That's a significant difference.  With my own group it's a non issue because they all will be OK with ignoring that rule.  I just need to make sure I state it up front that I won't be playing that rule when I do FLGS games.

I don't see it as being baked in so I see no reason it couldn't be ignored if that's your preference. But then again it's very White Wolf, Fate, Burning Wheel to me all games I like and play.

Quote from: LibraryLass;766187I never thought I'd see another human being get infected with Pundit's ridiculous paranoia.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;766191Yeah, I don't think it's nearly as tin foil hat as that.  I just think it's a natural result of having a game where 95% of the actual game play was on tactical combat, and therefore role-playing for exploration and interaction were largely ignored or not part of the game, and most certainly didn't reward the PCs for it.

So I see the intent of having that mechanic, even if it's not a mechanic I personally like.

What paranoia?  I didn't say Mearls was a Forgite, I said it was a classic Forge technique.  Mearls threw it in as a bone thrown to the narrative folks.  We all knew it was coming, everyone is getting a bone in 5e.  I'm just surprised to see it in the most trimmed down version of the rules.  

WotC isn't really good at anything other then exception-based mechanics, so their attempt at "non-combat mechanics" so far hasn't been stellar.  Inspiration and most Features are hamfisted proof that while Mearls may have figured out that the criticism of 4e was valid, he still hasn't gotten basic non-Magic game theory of the last decade down yet.

If you're debating that it wasn't a Forge technique to teach Gamists to be Narrativists, you're simply ignorant of the discussions on the topic there.

Quote from: CRKrueger;765906That's how you want to use them, ok, but that's not what the Basic Rules say, they say...



If it's
1. Something I can choose to spend as a Player that comes from roleplaying, it's by definition OOC.
2. If it gives mechanical advantage from an OOC pov, then it's a metagame mechanic.
3. If it can be transferred to another player, (which then allows me to get Inspiration again since I no longer have it) then it's an economy.

Choose to completely ignore it if you want to,(I suspect most people will) but don't pretend you're not houseruling the thing, because you are.

But traits etc are not directly tied to the inspiration mechanic.
Traits are character features the inspiration mechnaic is a tool that used traits just like saving throws are a tool that use your base statistics.
If you don't like the saving throw mechanic you can change it for something else without haveing to dump Str, Int, Wis etc.

So I can see that you might not like inspiration, personally I see it as no different to giving a bennie in SW for good roleplay and closely related to giving extra XP for roleplay in ever edition of D&D since whenever, however, I think that in the hands of a decent DM who encourages roleplay the whole thing will seem pretty seemless. The player will construct a character based round those traits they will role play it and occassionally the DM will give them a token they can spend to get advantage on a roll thus encouraging roleplay.

Quote from: jibbajibba;766241The player will construct a character based round those traits they will role play it and occassionally the DM will give them a token they can spend to get advantage on a roll thus encouraging roleplay.

I don't see how giving someone a token in an OOC economy encourages IC thinking.  It does encourage meta-thinking about "how this character is supposed to act" from a third person authorial perspective, which is why otherwise very crunchy games like The Riddle of Steel and Burning Wheel were lauded by the Storygames crowd for encouraging the dramatic view of players choosing to engage in activities that reinforced the personality traits.

Compared to those systems, Inspiration is very minor, advantage on one single roll if I currently have the Inspiration condition flagged.  Also true to design philsophy, it can easily be flushed with zero affect on the rest of the game.

However, IME, RPing is it's own reward.  People try it straight, with no OOC tie-ins, no dramatic logic, no 4th wall breaking genre convention knowledge (and frankly there are people who have played for decades that have never done this, their mindset is always a layer removed) and they're hooked...or they're not, YMMV.  In any case mechanical reinforcement of Roleplaying is not teaching or rewarding Roleplaying, it's by definition of being OOC when acquired and used  rewarding director stance at best.

Quote from: CRKrueger;766366I don't see how giving someone a token in an OOC economy encourages IC thinking.  It does encourage meta-thinking about "how this character is supposed to act" from a third person authorial perspective, which is why otherwise very crunchy games like The Riddle of Steel and Burning Wheel were lauded by the Storygames crowd for encouraging the dramatic view of players choosing to engage in activities that reinforced the personality traits.

Compared to those systems, Inspiration is very minor, advantage on one single roll if I currently have the Inspiration condition flagged.  Also true to design philsophy, it can easily be flushed with zero affect on the rest of the game.

However, IME, RPing is it's own reward.  People try it straight, with no OOC tie-ins, no dramatic logic, no 4th wall breaking genre convention knowledge (and frankly there are people who have played for decades that have never done this, their mindset is always a layer removed) and they're hooked...or they're not, YMMV.  In any case mechanical reinforcement of Roleplaying is not teaching or rewarding Roleplaying, it's by definition of being OOC when acquired and used  rewarding director stance at best.

But roleplayers will do it anyway for its own reward or more acurately because they can't help it. You don't need to get them engaged. The occassional treat from the DM when he likes a nice turn of phrase or thinks you have captured "You like to win arguments on the internet and seldom back down even when faced with clear evidence" does no harm and eventually will be ignored.
These are training wheels just like alignment. The idea is to help people try to stick to a coherent personal identity.
As you say advantage is a very minor boon and if you think your players are going to be hamming up traits just to score a transitory single bonus to a roll I don't think you trust your ability to engender a game where roleplay is the norm