Quote from: gonster;753271Sure I could be wrong -- then I learned something today.

Koltar, I am speaking about RPGs here when I talk about a gaming store.  The board is called The RPG Site.  I just thought it was assumed.  (If I was wrong in this assumption I apologize.)  What % of your sales are rpg sales.  I am figuring they have dropped off 2014 vs. 2004?

I have no doubt a game store selling board games and trading card games could still exist -- there is one store that I go to that is doing great.

I am also speaking about RPGs here.

You seem to think that something must be labeled "RPG' to be sold in connection with an RPG. The miniatures on our wall made by REAPER ? The majority of them are bought by folks using them in connection with either D&d or Pathfinder games...sometimes other RPGs (like SAVAGE WORLDS).

Items I've seen re-purposed by customers for use in Role playing Games:

The game "ZOMBIES!!!" by Twilight Creations was bought because a DM wanted LOTS of Zombie miniature for his D&D game.

Magic the Gathering cards used as illustrations for a campaign.

'HERO CLIX" miniatures have been bought quite often both for 'modern day' RPG sessions and superhero Roleplaying games...

MANY, Many Board games have been bought by GMs because they liked either the playing pieces in it or the 'map board' for use in their roleplaying game.

A Store does not have to have exclusively RPGs to count as an "FLGS". Lots of gamers like to mix up their game parts and pieces - hell even create their own versions of games.

The store I work at has tables for gaming. There are both monthly and weekly RPG sessions going on at the store - same with our main competitor that is barely a 10 minute drive from our location (in good weather and traffic)

I think your assumptions are very off base compared to the reality.

- Ed C.

I have not seen a FLGS that was overly pro-RPG and that's understandable. If you are a store with tables, you want those tables used by people buying the most stuff.

CCGers and wargamers are great customers so their table use is justified. In order to play a CCG, each player needs lots of cards and minis guys need lots of minis.

Boardgamers are good customers so their table use is okay, but you only need one copy of the game for the whole table.

RPGers kinda suck. Half of them buy nothing and they take up tables for hours and hours. They are worth some revenue because they buy high margin stuff like individual minis and dice, but once they buy a core book, they can waste space in your store for years.  Not my preferred choice of customer...unless I was selling lots of snacks and drinks.

BTW, the FLGS is far from dead. The good ones have become gaming community hubs and can do quite nicely. If you have a dedicated audience who respects the idea that they buy from you at retail price and you in turn give them a free space to game and a hub for meeting other gamers, then your store can rock.

But those game stores that ran themselves like bookstores have suffered the fate of bookstores.

Quote from: gonster;753214Back in 1997 I went into a FLGS and bought WASTEWORLD, KULT, JOVIAN CHRONICLES, HEAVY GEAR, and DEADLANDS and supplements.

It isn't that way anymore.

It's that way in Leisure Games, Finchley last time I visited. To a lesser extent it's that way at Orcs' Nest, Leicester square.

Arguably two FLGSes in a city of over 8 million is not brilliant, and Leisure Games especially probably makes more money off board games, but they're there.

Quote from: gonster;753221One of the secrets of later RPG distribution (discovered by Mongoose and barely talked about) is magazine style publishing for RPG lines.

Which means produce a fantastic looking book, charge as much as the market will bare for it, now exactly how many will be ordered and print about 20 more than that number.

The secret of Paizo's success!

Quote from: S'mon;753343The secret of Paizo's success!

I am no fan of Paizo, but hot damn their books look GREAT. I look at the 4e or 5e books in comparison and they just don't compare to the look of the Pathfinder books. Gotta give them kudos.

Oh, and not to mention the other FLGS in my town, which pretty much down one whole side is just RPG books and has been going fine for as long as I can remember.

Quote from: S'mon;753341It's that way in Leisure Games, Finchley last time I visited. To a lesser extent it's that way at Orcs' Nest, Leicester square.

Arguably two FLGSes in a city of over 8 million is not brilliant, and Leisure Games especially probably makes more money off board games, but they're there.

Better than here in Singapore
1 shop that has games and a handful (literally of miniatures). Don't think I have seen any RPG stuf fthere at all.

There is a Mtg place above a shop in Geylang where they play and sell some cards.
6 Million people
Kinokuniya will probably stock the books though and they do have a comic section that rivals Forbidden planet.

Around here the (F)LGS' are doing ok, I think. All, bar two, has a pretty abysmal selection of actual books, but thrive on Warhammer tables, boardgames and larp equipment.

I never set foot in a FLGS until the late 80s --I got most of my RPG stuff from either a local discount store or a bookstore-- and I'm 100% certain that those FLGS never had the majority of their sales come from RPGs.

Never.

The 80's, while also a time of big RPG expansion, were also the time of the MB Gamesmaster series (Axis and Allies and their ilk) as well as other board games. Based on shelf space alone, those games outsold RPGs. The first FLGS I went to had sand table toy soldiers as their primary sales engine, with board games and RPGs distant second and third products. Even then, I'm not completely sure that their line of model rockets didn't outsell RPGs and board games, and their selection of each was very damned good for an era dominated by Avalon Hill and TSR.

Therefore, the original question involves an invalid premise.

Quote from: S'mon;753341It's that way in Leisure Games, Finchley last time I visited. To a lesser extent it's that way at Orcs' Nest, Leicester square.

Arguably two FLGSes in a city of over 8 million is not brilliant, and Leisure Games especially probably makes more money off board games, but they're there.

Wait, London doesn't have more than two FLGSes, in an international cosmopolitan city of 8 million? (edit: isn't it a metro o f 12 million? I thought Paris was 8 million.)

San Francisco metro has easily over ten that I can rattle off without effort (Games of Berkeley, Eudemonia, Endgame, Black Diamond Games, It's Your Turn, Ronin, Galaxy Games, Game Castle, Gamescape, Gator Games, Channel Fireball... oops, too much, sorry). And that's to count nothing of the coming and goings of GW and WotC mall stores and the like over the years.

And we have two Kinokuniya bookstores, too. (It's where I always had to buy my university textbooks. Also a good excuse to meander Japantown mall and hit the Fillmore for burgers and a show after.)

We're just another metro of 8 million people. What on earth did Games Workshop do to you guys? Shouldn't such a globally important city keep up?

edit: I will give credit where it is due, as London back in the day had more weekly goth nights at clubs than SF, but then we were really the only cities that had more than 8 each. The land that produces Joy Division and Sisters of Mercy must surely receive deference... I wonder if we're tied for Bangra and Dhol? We do have an annual Bangra night at one of our basketball stadiums during basketball season, helps get all the fans moving.

Died in 2006? That's pretty funny. Our local FLGS opened its doors in 2006.

Of course, because 90% of sales aren't rpgs it isn't a "real" game store. :rolleyes:

It has a decent selection of rpg material, miniatures, boardgames, cards, and other stuff. There is plenty of room to play games, large miniatures tables and even wargame terrain that can be used free of charge.

Tuesday is D&D night and canned drinks sell for a quarter. We play our AD&D and OD&D games there.

Not too bad for a dead store I think.

Oh, and we are kind of a small town too. Midway between Richmond VA and Washington D.C.

Quote from: Opaopajr;753378Wait, London doesn't have more than two FLGSes, in an international cosmopolitan city of 8 million? (edit: isn't it a metro o f 12 million? I thought Paris was 8 million.)

To be fair, Forbidden Planet has (last time I looked, at least) a reasonably diverse RPG section, though I wouldn't call it a FLGS since games are not its main focus.

There used to be the Model Shop in Harrow-On-The-Hill (suburb on the northwest tip of London where I grew up) which had a great selection of RPGs. Then it vanished.

There used to be Spirit Games near the British Museum, but it was tiny and easy to miss and the RPGs were kept in a disorganised, cramped basement area.

On the whole, between them Orcs' Nest and Leisure Games have got things nicely stitched up. Orcs' Nest location is so conveniently central that more or less anyone near a tube line can get to it. Leisure Games are very reliable at delivering things, and get more or less every significant RPG release in stock with a few exceptions. (For some reason they've not really engaged with Onyx Path's efforts to get their POD stuff on gamestore shelves, for instance.) If you want to go to a store to pick something up directly, you can go to Orcs' Nest. If you want to order something in, you go to Leisure Games (or Amazon, though their RPG selection is patchy these days). If you want to play a game in a store, you're weird because that's not really what we do here. (Local game clubs based out of pub function rooms and other such facilities are more the order of the day.)

QuoteWhat on earth did Games Workshop do to you guys?

Became the dominant RPG sellers in the country, and then abruptly ceased selling anything which wasn't Warhams.

When I was a kid, I bought all my stuff at Waldenbooks. I still fondly remember picking the DC Heroes boxed set off the shelf in 1985 and gasping. How cool is this??? I also remember picking up the second edition boxed set up in 1989 out of another Waldenbooks location. Didn't even expect it. Nothing now can replicate that feeling because we all know what's coming out months or years in advance.

Quote from: Warthur;753392To be fair, Forbidden Planet has (last time I looked, at least) a reasonably diverse RPG section, though I wouldn't call it a FLGS since games are not its main focus.

There used to be the Model Shop in Harrow-On-The-Hill (suburb on the northwest tip of London where I grew up) which had a great selection of RPGs. Then it vanished.

There used to be Spirit Games near the British Museum, but it was tiny and easy to miss and the RPGs were kept in a disorganised, cramped basement area.

On the whole, between them Orcs' Nest and Leisure Games have got things nicely stitched up. Orcs' Nest location is so conveniently central that more or less anyone near a tube line can get to it. Leisure Games are very reliable at delivering things, and get more or less every significant RPG release in stock with a few exceptions. (For some reason they've not really engaged with Onyx Path's efforts to get their POD stuff on gamestore shelves, for instance.) If you want to go to a store to pick something up directly, you can go to Orcs' Nest. If you want to order something in, you go to Leisure Games (or Amazon, though their RPG selection is patchy these days). If you want to play a game in a store, you're weird because that's not really what we do here. (Local game clubs based out of pub function rooms and other such facilities are more the order of the day.)


Became the dominant RPG sellers in the country, and then abruptly ceased selling anything which wasn't Warhams.

That's a good description of the situation here, yup. I didn't mention Forbidden Planet as it's now just a couple shelves in a huge comics shop.
I noticed recently a reference to a games shop in Enfield, but I'm not sure if it's a real one with RPGs & board games, or just M:TG & Warhammer. Certainly Dark Sphere south of the river is just Warhammer/WH40K & its clones (and they drove me out with considerable hostility when I went there with my son to buy minis last year! Not going back).

Overall Orcs' Nest and Leisure Games seem to be doing well; Orcs' Nest through super-convenient location and no-longer-actively-hostile staff since they hired that nice lady some years back. Leisure Games through incredibly brilliant mail order, being very well stocked, bright attractive shop area, and Angus & co are friendly and helpful - though I slightly resent being persuaded to buy Wrath of Ashardalon to play with a 5 year old when I wanted Talisman.

"Dead?" I don't think so. It was always a niche business. Friends of mine lost their shirts trying to start one as a viable business.

Oh, and that was in the 80s.

Sure, online purchases are convenient and cheap. But it's also very nice to visit a store and browse, socialize and game. A good place to meet local gamers. And a good place to try out new products you otherwise wouldn't have been exposed to.

And let us not forget, a good place for non-gamers to check the hobby out, and for parents, grandparents, aunts and uncles to find presents.

The Compleat Strategist in NY was my first game store; still there. Went to Rider's when I was away at school in Michigan; still there. Hung out at Game Master in NJ for years; still there. My local store is now Aero Hobbies in the Los Angeles area; opened 60 years ago, still here -- also the "home of the Thief" class.

They're not dead as long as you patronize them.