Quote from: CRKrueger;751951The PHB is 320 pages, 15% of that is going to be online for free, so 48 pages.

On the one hand I can see the argument that to put that 48 page booklet into the Starter Set is going to mess up the "Open and Play" experience.  I don't buy it though.  It's money, and it's not that WotC couldn't afford to put the box out with the booklet, it's that doing so would have dropped the profit margin on the box probably .5% below what Hasbro demanded.

So, we get online chargen rules, ok, love it or hate it, it is what it is.

I think people are missing something.

If Tyranny of Dragons is playable with only the Starter Set, then that means that the 15% of the PHB that will be online for free isn't just Chargen it's Advancement.  If the advancement rules are for free, then that means...

Starter Set plus free download is a complete game with no level limits, which means all the PHB, DMG, MM content really is optional.

This Starter Set plus download might be the most complete boxed set in gaming history.  :hmm:

Took you awhile to figure out that is EXACTLY what Mearls said days ago.

Quote from: Marleycat;751953Took you awhile to figure out that is EXACTLY what Mearls said days ago.

Mearls says a lot and most of it is horseshit if you've been paying attention for a while.  You have a link to the tweet (great way to release info btw :rolleyes:) where he says all the advancement rules are in the download?

So far it seems to me that the "basic" version of the game is going to be a total of a $20 investment (less depending on where you get it).  That's the starter box + free digital info.

Can't see how this is a bad thing in any way, shape or form.

Quote from: Benoist;751949Her answer was: "Yes, about half of them will be able to, and the other half with the help of an adult will be able to as well. But that means that on the dnd.com page you'd have a big red button to download the rules that you could find at all times, that wouldn't be confusing for the kids, and so on."

The first part sounds a lot like how we learned the game back in the late 1970s so no real loss. As you point out, given Wizards' track record for user interface design that second part is ominous.

Quote from: Benoist;751949Nope. The entire fucking point is that if the player says "Oh I'd like to play a human fighter" he can, and doesn't get answered with "There's only a dwarf fighter in the box, here" but instead "OK roll the dice six times, choose your equipment and let's go!"

The relative degree of freedom versus constraint is the product design decision people can complain about but I dunno whether this is worth going nuclear on. Back in the day if the player said "Oh I'd like to play a gnome cleric" he got answered with "There's only a human cleric and a gnome illusionist in the box, here" and rolling the dice couldn't take you there. Or if the player said "I wanna be a bug man or a talking duck or a lawful werebear or a samurai or a baby dragon."

What's in the box will always be a subset of the real possibilities. The old boxes supported free chargen in a fairly limited race/class set. The new box sounds like it won't support free chargen at all right out of the box, so to speak. Starting player freedom has declined but it was never BTB infinite.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;751956So far it seems to me that the "basic" version of the game is going to be a total of a $20 investment (less depending on where you get it).  That's the starter box + free digital info.

Can't see how this is a bad thing in any way, shape or form.

Because that "free info" should have been in the box to begin with?

In this day and age, with 40 years of experience to draw from, Holmes Basic, Moldvay Basic, Mentzer Basic, and especially the Pathfinder Beginners Box to show them how its done; Its was unconscionable to leave it out... IT could have been done, IT should have been done... And yet, they chose not to...

Quote from: YourSwordisMine;751959Because that "free info" should have been in the box to begin with?

In this day and age, with 40 years of experience to draw from, Holmes Basic, Moldvay Basic, Mentzer Basic, and especially the Pathfinder Beginners Box to show them how its done; Its was unconscionable to leave it out... IT could have been done, IT should have been done... And yet, they chose not to...

Maybe because adding that additional information would increase the costs of the set.  And if it's available for free, why include it to drive up those costs?  Also, how many people would get the starter set and enjoy playing it, with no intention or desire to play the actual full game?  I imagine not many.  I imagine most would treat it exactly like it is, as something to give people the idea of what the game is all about, and if they enjoy it, they will end up getting the core books.

Quote from: econobus;751958The first part sounds a lot like how we learned the game back in the late 1970s so no real loss. As you point out, given Wizards' track record for user interface design that second part is ominous.



The relative degree of freedom versus constraint is the product design decision people can complain about but I dunno whether this is worth going nuclear on. Back in the day if the player said "Oh I'd like to play a gnome cleric" he got answered with "There's only a human cleric and a gnome illusionist in the box, here" and rolling the dice couldn't take you there. Or if the player said "I wanna be a bug man or a talking duck or a lawful werebear or a samurai or a baby dragon."

What's in the box will always be a subset of the real possibilities. The old boxes supported free chargen in a fairly limited race/class set. The new box sounds like it won't support free chargen at all right out of the box, so to speak. Starting player freedom has declined but it was never BTB infinite.

No you're right, it's not worth going nuclear about. And someone earlier (I forget who) brought up Heroquest and how it came with the warrior, the dwarf, the elf and the wizard. That was a very good point in this discussion (the point that actually made the most sense to me, anyway).

Quote from: RPGPundit;751919It was a combination of reasons, which included maximizing the affordability of the starter set, a conscious choice of making the starter set in-the-box something that would be as straightforward as possible for total newbies to just pick up and play, and also because the FREE online content is not just some kind of afterthought but will be part of the main strategy for D&D overall.

I wonder if we'd be having these arguments if the "Starter Set" was called a "Pick-Up-and-Play Pack". Probably not.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;751940Strange.  It's a Starter Set, so I wouldn't expect anything but the basic classes to be included anyway.

So why again is B/X loved and this is reviled?  What does the old basic boxed set include as accessible to players that this does not?

The way I understand the criticism (and I might be wrong) is this:

B/X and Mentzer were both intro sets and complete games. The first Basic set was a starter set for AD&D1, one that was so "complete" that players use that as basis for their games even today. Same for Mentzer.
(I would argue that without Expert, and without the carrot of more levels and rules dangling in front of consumers, one could play many many campaigns with either Basic set, making lots of different characters.

Characters in older D&D were not that different from pre-gens. There was not very much to choose (for non-casters, anyway) as special skills came automatically with level. It all came down to your equipment (which weapon and armor?) and the variance that your stat bonuses gave (which felt greater than it really was, IMO, and served more how you pictured your dude in the head).

So, if the Next Starter included four basic classes and four basic races, advancement to level 3 (or even 5!), and rules how to roll your stats, all would be well. That's more than B/X and Mentzer had.
And that's what Pathfinder Beginner basically has (with pre-selected feats for level advancement, just like in the old days). But PF has even more. It also has Pre-Gens so that you can start immediately.
That's enough to play full campaigns, if you don't want to upgrade to full PF. (But of course you want, anyway. The carrot of more levels and rules smells nicely.)

It is possible to present that kind of info in the page count that the Next Starter Set has. It's all a question of how much info and how to present it.
It's a question of how Next's "Pre-Gens" are presented. Are they named Iconics with fixed stats? (Dragonlance all over again...) Or are they character sheets pre-filled with class/race specific info, and stats left blank?
Even the Iconic Pre-Gens from the Pathfinder Beginner box are customizable - you still get to choose skills!

That's the difference between Tanis and a character template from Star Wars d6. But in Star Wars it was enough to make a player feel that this character was his. And I guess it would be enough in Next.

What people get so riled up against is how close Next feels to be from the platonic ideal of a Starter Set that combines the best parts of the old world and today (and even more - the 15% PHB download is an awesome bonus).
But the physical product of the Starter Box should feel as complete as at least B/X. On its own, without stuff to download. Without a stack of ugly printouts I'd have to add.

Quote from: YourSwordisMine;751959Because that "free info" should have been in the box to begin with?

No, because that free 15% PHB is much much more than needed. It's a very generous freebie, but it's not what I am talking about. I am talking about the 4 pages - or maybe just 4 sentences! - that make the Pre-Gens customizable.

And for all we know, that might still be the case! WotC just doesn't want to call that "character creation". (But for old schoolers, it would absolutely be!)

Maybe WotC is shooting themselves in the foot with their information policy, as always...

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;751967And for all we know, that might still be the case! WotC just doesn't want to call that "character creation". (But for old schoolers, it would absolutely be!)

Maybe WotC is shooting themselves in the foot with their information policy, as always...

Now that also IS a good point. It's totally possible that customization is discussed in the boxed set if only with a few sentences, and WotC is putting its foot in its mouth again.

Quote from: Dirk Remmecke;751967And for all we know, that might still be the case! WotC just doesn't want to call that "character creation". (But for old schoolers, it would absolutely be!)

That's a good point. They're trying to communicate with entirely different camps simultaneously. What the OSR thinks of as chargen isn't even in the same galaxy as what a 3e or 4e person thinks of.

Quote from: Benoist;751968Now that also IS a good point. It's totally possible that customization is discussed in the boxed set if only with a few sentences, and WotC is putting its foot in its mouth again.

It's a point that was brought up very early in the life cycle of these three threads. We really don't have enough information to make the jump-off-the-cliff conclusion you've drawn, and won't until it's released or WotC communicates a great deal more information a great deal more clearly.

I write user documentation for a living, and part of tailoring something for a new user is not including any content that will confuse him or that he won't need until later. If you're targeting complete newbs, there is a real downside to including both pregens and character generation.

Quote from: Bobloblah;751974It's a point that was brought up very early in the life cycle of these three threads. We really don't have enough information to make the jump-off-the-cliff conclusion you've drawn, and won't until it's released or WotC communicates a great deal more information a great deal more clearly.

I think these threads have proven pretty conclusively that a sizeable contingent is ready to jump off the cliff at the first hint of minor inconvenience, so they might as well jump now before real issues like the ruleset come around and send them flying anyway.

I'm not even being nasty when I say that, as I've cliff jumped over trivial things too in my time. Fun and aesthetic satisfaction are fragile things and can afford to be in a world that offers so many solid alternatives.

Quote from: YourSwordisMine;751959Because that "free info" should have been in the box to begin with?

In this day and age, with 40 years of experience to draw from, Holmes Basic, Moldvay Basic, Mentzer Basic, and especially the Pathfinder Beginners Box to show them how its done; Its was unconscionable to leave it out... IT could have been done, IT should have been done... And yet, they chose not to...

Here's the thing.  People are looking at this like it's a Basic Set.  But it's not that.  It's something completely different.

Here's what we know:

• Mearls said that that character generation will be available for the Starter Set.
• Related to this, approximately 15% of the PHB (so 48 out of 320 pages), the section concerning "basic" character generation will be available as a free PDF.
• Mearls also said that people will be able to run campaigns with just the PHB.
• Mearls has said there's a step between the Starter Set and the Big 3.

So, the trending theory (which I guess Pundit can neither confirm nor deny) is that the step between the Starter Set and the Big 3 is the Basic Rules -- provided for free, online, in PDF format.  One poster on EN World broke it down like this:

15% of the PHB (probably released around the same time as the Starter Set)
15% of the MM (probably released around the same time as the PHB)
15% of the DMG (probably released around the same time as the PHB)

Since each book is going to be in the range of 320 pages, that'd be 48*3 = 144 pages, give or take, very close to the 128 pages of B/X.  That's your Basic Set.  Want to give someone the equivalent of B/X?  Send them the URL, or have the PDFs printed out and bound at Kinkos.  If they're a tablet user, they're totally set.  If you've got someone you think will get into D&D, and enjoy making characters, and won't get put off with reading 90-some pages before getting into the game (we'll stipulate that they won't need to read through all the MM pages), this is what you point them to.

The Starter Set, then, works like a pre-Basic Set.  It tries to recreate the experience of trying out the game with a pre-gen with an existing group.  You've got some quick start rules, you've got some pre-gens, you've got an adventure that last 8-10 sessions.  The game guides you to where the free Basic Rules are if you like what you've seen.

Then the PHB, MM, and DMG all expand on this with more options for characters and campaigns.  And you don't have to pay for duplicated material!  So you have a smooth on-ramp into the hobby, even if you never played before, and don't have an experienced group.  And you can get into the game at just the level of commitment you want.  Just want to play your pre-gen?  Good to go.  Want to create your own?  Free chargen, when you decide you want it.  Want even more options?  PHB.  Want to DM?  Try out the Starter Set.  Want some more options?  Free rules expansion is available.  Want to go whole hawg?  Get the DMG and MM.

So, in a sense, sure, the Starter Set makes a bad Basic Set, because it wasn't designed to be a Basic Set.  But the actual Basic Set is even cooler than past Basic Sets because it's more like a free B/X that you can expand at your leisure.

A lot of this is still speculation, but it's a theory that covers all the facts.