Check it! I just found pics of the pre-gens!






But, seriously, and without any more disguised 4e hate, I'm disappointed that the Starter Set is not the Basic Set. I think I was hoping/expected THE complete game 1-5, not _A_ complete game.

IIRC, at one point the first few levels in 5e were throw away, like "kill 1 monster and gain a level" sorts of things. Is that still the case?


EDIT: I'm sure its being done this way to get in to WalMart and the other big box stores. Mainsteam is Revenue stream..

Quote from: bryce0lynch;751981Check it! I just found pics of the pre-gens!

I recognize the second set as Heroquest and the third set as Descent Second Edition.  What is the first set?

I remember when D&D4 was in the ramp up to release I was on the #RPGNET channel and said I had found a picture of the PHB cover.  Then I linked everyone to some promotional art for Final Fantasy: Crisis Core.  I got a few good natured fuck yous from that one.  

Quote from: Gabriel2;751983I recognize the second set as Heroquest and the third set as Descent Second Edition.  What is the first set?

IIRC Warhammer Quest.

Heh Warhammer Quest in French no less.  Damn I miss that game.  The iPad one kicks ass but I still miss the original, have most of the minis too.  I wish Games Workshop would realize they could make more money by re-releasing old stuff from back when they were worth something.

@ Iosue:

Not so sure about your release date projections, but otherwise I think you nailed it.

Quote from: CRKrueger;751985Heh Warhammer Quest in French no less.  Damn I miss that game.  The iPad one kicks ass but I still miss the original, have most of the minis too.  I wish Games Workshop would realize they could make more money by re-releasing old stuff from back when they were worth something.

Yeah, good stuff, especially when you use the extra rules and mechanics from the campaign book. It was also back when the Warhammer universes still allowed cartoony colorful art that lightened the brutality of the premise. It's all too serious and brownish-black now.

Quote from: Iosue;75197815% of the PHB (probably released around the same time as the Starter Set)
15% of the MM (probably released around the same time as the PHB)
15% of the DMG (probably released around the same time as the PHB)

that'd be 48*3 = 144 pages, give or take, very close to the 128 pages of B/X.  That's your Basic Set.  

So, in a sense, sure, the Starter Set makes a bad Basic Set, because it wasn't designed to be a Basic Set.  But the actual Basic Set is even cooler than past Basic Sets because it's more like a free B/X that you can expand at your leisure.

... and then the lamentation would start.

"Why can't we have this Basic Set as a print product?"
"This is so much better than the so-called 'full game'!"




But at least it would explain why we never got a reprint of the Cyclopedia ...

While I and others have used the Holmes/Moldvay/Mentzer Basic sets as examples, I never expected a full game like that now.

I also repeatedly used the Pathfinder's Beginner's Box as an example of a modern Starter set. IT set a precedent for how Starter Sets should be. Sadly, neither WoTC (with 5e) or Fantasy Flight Games (Edge of the Empire) seemed to even care that even exists and shows without a doubt how to do it right...

If you cannot match the content, quality, or value per dollar of the Pathfinder's Beginner's Box then you are fucking doing it wrong...

I'm not even a fan of 3.x/Pathfinder, but the PBB is one of the best RPG products to ever be released in the 40 years of RPGs.

I'm not going to waste money on a piece of shit 5e starter set when the developers cant even be bothered to TRY and do it fucking right...

Quote from: Benoist;751859To be clear, I am NOT angry

I'm glad. We wouldn't like you when you're angry.

Quote from: Mark Plemmons;751966I wonder if we'd be having these arguments if the "Starter Set" was called a "Pick-Up-and-Play Pack". Probably not.

The whole key is in the word STARTER in that it is not BEGINNER it really is that simple. Because they imply two totally different things.

Quote from: Benoist;751949Nope. The entire fucking point is that if the player says "Oh I'd like to play a human fighter" he can, and doesn't get answered with "There's only a dwarf fighter in the box, here" but instead "OK roll the dice six times, choose your equipment and let's go!"

No doubt that's something that will happen, but if you're talking about a group that is all beginners (including the GM) there's no reason they'll expect that to happen right off the bat.  I think that when they're still learning what the hell they're doing because one of their uncles got them the Starter set for their birthday, they will be more than fine with picking one of the pregens.  For right after that, when they start thinking about making different characters, that will be available to them.

QuoteAgain, the point I'm making is not rocket science. Seriously. What is it with people treating role playing games like it's some sort of consumerist item like a series of movies or comics?

Seriously, dude? We're talking about D&D here, and WoTC.  D&D has ALWAYS been a "consumerist item".  Whether it was TSR or WoTC, it has ALWAYS been about making money for the company that produces it.  And that's a good thing, because the hobby needs a giant capable of bringing the hobby to new people.

My criticism isn't some kind of idealist/socialist utopian vision of why can't WoTC just make the game out of the goodness of their hearts with no expectation of profit; my criticism is that for a very long time D&D's owners have been failing to be effective enough at doing what they're supposed to be doing!

I want them to be good enough at being "consumerist" that they end up recruiting thousands and thousands of new gamers who'll love D&D.

QuoteNow, I actually went to my wife who has been a teacher for close to 15 years, mostly teaching to the exact age demographics we are talking about, and I asked her very straightforwardly: "If you have a boxed set with pregens and stuff, and in the boxed set it tells you 'go to dnd.com to get the full character generation rules', will they be able to do it with no problem at 10 years old?"

Her answer was: "Yes, about half of them will be able to, and the other half with the help of an adult will be able to as well. But that means that on the dnd.com page you'd have a big red button to download the rules that you could find at all times, that wouldn't be confusing for the kids or parents."

Having long since stopped being a kid myself, I didn't have much experience firsthand with what the kids are up to these days; until this past year when I got close to a very good friend's sons (or rather, they got close to me, because they, like their dad, love RPGs).  I was blown away and my perspective got seriously changed (or certain other perspectives confirmed) by seeing all kinds of first-hand evidence of what they're like and what they do, and how some things that are big deal to people from my generation are not at all for theirs.
The 10 year old kid (the younger of the two) is playing a Wizard in my DCC game and his favorite spell, Magic Missile, came with the 'mercurial magic' effect that causes him to change gender whenever he casts it.  Now, thinking back to my own childhood, I was expecting him to get grossed out or weirded out by that, to either be embarrassed (and either cast the spell less often or go out of his way to always cast it twice so as to get back to his male gender), or to end up being all goofy about it and making childish fun of his character turning into a girl.  But it didn't affect him at all.  For him, it was no big deal whatsoever.
As for technology, when he's sitting next to me he immediately (and without so much as asking permission) starts fiddling with my tablet, doing pretty much everything with it and almost intuitively getting it all. I use the Crawler app quite a lot for DCC, and he figured out every nook and cranny of the program in seconds.
I'm quite sure that if I gave him the starter set unsupervised, he'd be downloading the PDF on his netbook in seconds and be using it without the slightest qualm or any of the aesthetic concerns any of us older folk feel about the difference between PDFs and books. For him, its just something that's always been part of his life.

QuoteSo on that score it seems you guys are right: that it's no big deal now for a kid to just do it on his own. It's still an extra step/click/move to get the full breadth of the game that I think shouldn't have been there in the first place, however, and Wizards has such a TERRIBLE track record on web design and applications that I can't help but hold my breath on this one.

I can't absolutely confirm it but what I've heard so far suggests they're trying to keep things very simple this time.

RPGPundit

Quote from: YourSwordisMine;752041I'm not going to waste money on a piece of shit 5e starter set when the developers cant even be bothered to TRY and do it fucking right...

See, I find this extremist compared to some of the other objections here, especially since we haven't seen the finished product and the Pundit says there's still more to be revealed.

I mean, all of this is highly subjective of course, but there's "George Lucas made some very poor decisions in this film despite his best intentions" subjective and there's "If Disney doesn't use any muppet practical effects in Star Wars VII then it has effectively shat on my childhood out of incompetent laziness" subjective.

Quote from: YourSwordisMine;752041... Sadly, neither WoTC (with 5e) or Fantasy Flight Games (Edge of the Empire) seemed to even care that even exists and shows without a doubt how to do it right...

While we're on the subject of Star Wars, does anyone know how the Edge of the Empire starter did, financially and critically?

Quote from: One Horse Town;751952The pictures of the back covers of all the core books confirm this really. All of them say 'if you want more material, check out the PHB, DMG, MM' etc.

Good catch!

Quote from: Mistwell;752042I'm glad. We wouldn't like you when you're angry.

Nope. You would not like me angry.

Quote from: Marleycat;752049The whole key is in the word STARTER in that it is not BEGINNER it really is that simple. Because they imply two totally different things.

What makes you think the difference in meaning there is so obvious... particularly to these hypothetical (and alternatingly stupid/brilliant) newcomers? "Lil Timmy can figure out any device I put in front of him, but sadly would be stymied into a coma by full chargen rules in an RPG."