Quote from: mhensley;730065They probably do work insane hours but six figures for a good game programmer is not crazy talk.   I really doubt than any board or rpg game developers make that much money.  Maybe a few like Steve Jackson who own their own company do.

I make six figures a year on my RPG stuff (if you count cents)

Quote from: mhensley;730067It is dumb and wotc should consider that some people will not buy 5e just because of it.  Will anyone not buy it if it isn't in there?  I doubt it.  They have more to lose by including it than by getting rid of it.

If someone refuses to buy a game based on that one very minor rule, then they're a tool.  No game has every single rule that I adore, and I'm willing to bet 99% of gamers ignore at least one minor thing from every game they play.

I mean, we're not talking about some core aspect of the game.  We're talking about one minor option from a list of options from one class.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;730085We're talking about one minor option from a list of options from one class.

Three classes actually.

Quote from: Mistwell;730096Three classes actually.

Still.  It's incredibly minor, and extremely easy to ignore completely.

Quote from: jibbajibba;729977You need to do some more job research mate :-)
Check out average unix sa salaries for the top 10 us banks. You cand find data easily enough. But at this point i need to stop having this conversation owing to compliance issues.

My experience locally is that 6 figure salaries in IT are far from exceptional. I think the disconnect could be that we both work in first world countries ;-)

That or games companies pay a lot less because the huge number of applicants for that niche of the industry. I could easily believe that.

Quote from: jibbajibba;729977You need to do some more job research mate :-)
Check out average unix sa salaries for the top 10 us banks. You cand find data easily enough. But at this point i need to stop having this conversation owing to compliance issues.

My experience locally is that 6 figure salaries in IT are far from exceptional. I think the disconnect could be that we both work in first world countries ;-)

That or games companies pay a lot less because the huge number of applicants for that niche of the industry. I could easily believe that.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;730107Still.  It's incredibly minor, and extremely easy to ignore completely.

agreed

Quote from: Fiasco;730151My experience locally is that 6 figure salaries in IT are far from exceptional. I think the disconnect could be that we both work in first world countries ;-)

That or games companies pay a lot less because the huge number of applicants for that niche of the industry. I could easily believe that.

My experiences have been the exact opposite.  IT used to have a lot of six figure salaries, but downward salary pressure from offshoring and outsourcing has eliminated a lot of them, particularly non-management positions in areas not known as hot spots like Silicon Valley.  A big part of the allure of outsourcing is that instead of paying 3 people 100k each to do IT, you can have a company come in that will pay six people overseas 30k or less a year to do the same job.  When I hear about companies complaining they don't have enough people in the US for IT work and they need to expand H1B visas, what they really mean is that they don't have people here who will take IT jobs for 30k a year.

I can't really say more due to the fact I kind of like to keep my job, but when we read articles touting the earning potential of IT jobs, my friends/coworkers and I all laugh.

Quote from: flyerfan1991;730231what they really mean is that they don't have people here who will take IT jobs for 30k a year.

If college grads want a 30k salary, they can work for WotC/Hasbro.

Quote from: S'mon;730255If college grads want a 30k salary, they can work for WotC/Hasbro.

Fuck that. They can get work producing web content for an e-commerce site and make about 30k. Probably have more job security too.

Quote from: Gizmoduck5000;730276Fuck that. They can get work producing web content for an e-commerce site and make about 30k. Probably have more job security too.

Not when you can get people from Manilla to do it for $500/month.

Quote from: flyerfan1991;730231My experiences have been the exact opposite.  IT used to have a lot of six figure salaries, but downward salary pressure from offshoring and outsourcing has eliminated a lot of them, particularly non-management positions in areas not known as hot spots like Silicon Valley.  A big part of the allure of outsourcing is that instead of paying 3 people 100k each to do IT, you can have a company come in that will pay six people overseas 30k or less a year to do the same job.  When I hear about companies complaining they don't have enough people in the US for IT work and they need to expand H1B visas, what they really mean is that they don't have people here who will take IT jobs for 30k a year.

I can't really say more due to the fact I kind of like to keep my job, but when we read articles touting the earning potential of IT jobs, my friends/coworkers and I all laugh.

I don't think Australia is as far along the outsourcing journey but from what I've seen the moment you try to outsource anything but the basic stuff you run into trouble. Yes IT workers cost 1/4 or less the if you outsource from say Bangalore but if management, training and communication are not up to scratch you don't realize anything like that efficiency.

Maybe in the future, manual labor and service jobs will pay the best because:

A. There are too many people with college degrees in certain fields.
B. lazy people will not be interested in manual labor.
C. they are considered dangerous.

"Why not consider a career in trash hauling? It pays 100K a year!"
"Yuck, it's so dirty and dangerous. I might pick up all kinds of germs."



In actuality though, I think the best jobs will probably be the trades, like they are now. Plumbing, heating/cooling, electrical.

Quote from: Endless Flight;730313Maybe in the future, manual labor and service jobs will pay the best because:

A. There are too many people with college degrees in certain fields.
B. lazy people will not be interested in manual labor.
C. they are considered dangerous.

"Why not consider a career in trash hauling? It pays 100K a year!"
"Yuck, it's so dirty and dangerous. I might pick up all kinds of germs."



In actuality though, I think the best jobs will probably be the trades, like they are now. Plumbing, heating/cooling, electrical.

Certainly the case in Australia. A successful tradesman earns at least as much as your average white collar worker with a degree. But then until recently it was pretty cheap to earn a degree. But the rider there is 'successfull' trades person e.g runs their own business. Won't earn nearly as well working for someone else.

Quote from: Fiasco;730310I don't think Australia is as far along the outsourcing journey but from what I've seen the moment you try to outsource anything but the basic stuff you run into trouble. Yes IT workers cost 1/4 or less the if you outsource from say Bangalore but if management, training and communication are not up to scratch you don't realize anything like that efficiency.

Outsourcing is great. It spreads the results of capitalist endeavour to countries that otherwise would be living in poverty. I always laugh when a bloke in London complains his job has been oursourced to Bangalore and I have to point out he was working for a US bank who had outsourced it to the UK in the first place.

There are excellent resources in India and the Philippines, in fact the Philippines has some of the best techies I have met. However, there are other presures on jobs outside of simple cost avoidance so some firms, without being specific, might choose to move labour from low cost locations to high cost locations for business reasons beyond "yey I can get a UNIX SA for $20K a year".
I think the top end companies are now in a post outsourcing phase where the roles that can be outsourced and work with that paradigm are working and some roles that don't work as well are being pulled back due to other business drivers. Now that doesn't mean that those jobs will be coming back to the US or Europe necessarily, but places like here in Singapore, or HK are developing rapidly. Singapore and HK are more expensive than NY to live and wages reflect that.

As for tradesmen. When I was fixing up my house in the UK I employed my Brother-in-law's sons to do some basic labouring and clearing work. All three were stroppy teenagers destined to be living on benefits. I tried to explain to them that I was smart, had attended two of the top universities in the world, worked for a massive US bank and ..... still earned the same as the guy that was fixing my central heating. One got a job as a mechanic, one got an apprentiship with an electrician, the other didn't....  
But that will level out as well. the UK has seen an influx of EU citizerns from Poland in particular, who will do the same jobs for 1/2 the price. I happen to think that is fine because paying a plumber GBP 100.00 Call out + GBP 50 per half or or part thereof worked was absolute daylight robbery.....

Quote from: jibbajibba;730345I think the top end companies are now in a post outsourcing phase where the roles that can be outsourced and work with that paradigm are working and some roles that don't work as well are being pulled back due to other business drivers. Now that doesn't mean that those jobs will be coming back to the US or Europe necessarily, but places like here in Singapore, or HK are developing rapidly. Singapore and HK are more expensive than NY to live and wages reflect that.

As for tradesmen. When I was fixing up my house in the UK I employed my Brother-in-law's sons to do some basic labouring and clearing work. All three were stroppy teenagers destined to be living on benefits. I tried to explain to them that I was smart, had attended two of the top universities in the world, worked for a massive US bank and ..... still earned the same as the guy that was fixing my central heating. One got a job as a mechanic, one got an apprentiship with an electrician, the other didn't....  
But that will level out as well. the UK has seen an influx of EU citizerns from Poland in particular, who will do the same jobs for 1/2 the price. I happen to think that is fine because paying a plumber GBP 100.00 Call out + GBP 50 per half or or part thereof worked was absolute daylight robbery.....

Those rates are the same here. The only downside to a trade is that by the time you're in your 50s your body tends to be pretty beat up.