Sometime in the past couple months there was some guy thwacking around his supposed "credentials" claiming he was paid a six figure salary as an RPG designer (it seemed to be for video games) and we should all listen to him because he knows all and we're all idiots.
Anyone remember that? Have a link to the thread he did it in?
Sounds to me like that Fez guy in middle of his meltdown over some guy being mean to him on Twitter (which was also one of the funniest things I've ever read).
Quote from: Mistwell;729449Sometime in the past couple months there was some guy thwacking around his supposed "credentials" claiming he was paid a six figure salary as an RPG designer (it seemed to be for video games) and we should all listen to him because he knows all and we're all idiots.
Anyone remember that? Have a link to the thread he did it in?
Wasn't that Arduin/Rooster, who also claimed to have a Miss America work at his booth (and a bunch of other claims that were also obviously false)?
Quote from: Rincewind1;729450Sounds to me like that Fez guy in middle of his meltdown over some guy being mean to him on Twitter (which was also one of the funniest things I've ever read).
You mean Phil Fish?
Quote from: Sacrosanct;729454Wasn't that Arduin/Rooster, who also claimed to have a Miss America work at his booth (and a bunch of other claims that were also obviously false)?
Might be...if you can think of a link let me know, otherwise I will start digging for a link to that
Quote from: Mistwell;729457Might be...if you can think of a link let me know, otherwise I will start digging for a link to that
Why would you want a link for that? He was obviously lying to troll the site.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;729458Why would you want a link for that? He was obviously lying to troll the site.
He's doing it two other places now, and I wanted to connect the dots.
Didn't you invite him to come to this site in the first place?
Quote from: Rincewind1;729460Didn't you invite him to come to this site in the first place?
I don't think so. I think you're thinking of Kzach, and it's not him I'm referring to.
Quote from: Mistwell;729449Sometime in the past couple months there was some guy thwacking around his supposed "credentials" claiming he was paid a six figure salary as an RPG designer (it seemed to be for video games) and we should all listen to him because he knows all and we're all idiots.
Anyone remember that? Have a link to the thread he did it in?
I thought it was Rooster.
But honestly, if someone is making six figures as a video game designer he/she is probably making that money by working insane hours. Like 80 hours a week.
Guy A - I think this thing.
Guy B - I think another thing.
Mistwell to Guy A - Guy B thinks you're an arsehole.
Mistwell to Guy B - Guy A thinks you're an arsehole.
Guy A to Guy B - Wanker!
Guy B to Guy A - Right back atcha!
Peanut gallery - Fight! Fight! Fight!
Mistwell - Nothing to do with me.
:rolleyes:
Quote from: One Horse Town;729467Guy A - I think this thing.
Guy B - I think another thing.
Mistwell to Guy A - Guy B thinks you're an arsehole.
Mistwell to Guy B - Guy A thinks you're an arsehole.
Guy A to Guy B - Wanker!
Guy B to Guy A - Right back atcha!
Peanut gallery - Fight! Fight! Fight!
Mistwell - Nothing to do with me.
:rolleyes:
You're my ten foot pole, OHT.
Quote from: One Horse Town;729467Guy A - I think this thing.
Guy B - I think another thing.
Mistwell to Guy A - Guy B thinks you're an arsehole.
Mistwell to Guy B - Guy A thinks you're an arsehole.
Guy A to Guy B - Wanker!
Guy B to Guy A - Right back atcha!
Peanut gallery - Fight! Fight! Fight!
Mistwell - Nothing to do with me.
:rolleyes:
Or you could ask for links to what I am referring to and not be a dick.
Quote from: flyerfan1991;729466But honestly, if someone is making six figures as a video game designer he/she is probably making that money by working insane hours. Like 80 hours a week.
You're thinking of a coder, designers don't do that, they do the art.
Quote from: Mistwell;729469Or you could ask for links to what I am referring to and not be a dick.
Where's the fun in that?
Quote from: One Horse Town;729471Where's the fun in that?
True. Carry on!
Quote from: Mistwell;729449Sometime in the past couple months there was some guy thwacking around his supposed "credentials" claiming he was paid a six figure salary as an RPG designer (it seemed to be for video games) and we should all listen to him because he knows all and we're all idiots.
Anyone remember that? Have a link to the thread he did it in?
Is he the guy who's been spouting off for months on the WotC site about being
a game developer with dozens of AAA titles, and so everyone should listen to him while he rails against damage on a miss fighter mechanics?
Or is there more than one?
If it is him, that guy cracks me up. If not, he should hook up with the other guy and take the show on the road.
Quote from: dragoner;729470You're thinking of a coder, designers don't do that, they do the art.
Or as some of them would say it, the "Aaaaaahhht."
At small shops, designer and coder are one in the same. Only in the bigger shops are they split apart.
Quote from: flyerfan1991;729466I thought it was Rooster.
But honestly, if someone is making six figures as a video game designer he/she is probably making that money by working insane hours. Like 80 hours a week.
Google tell me ....
According to GamaSutra, game designers had an average salary of around $67,379 in 2008. This is the total average of game designers at all levels across the United States. This average is higher than what it has been in the past. For instance, $63,649 was the average salary of game designers in 2007.So I would expect a manager/team lead to be on 6 figures easily.
I mean we pay an experienced SA 6 figures + bonus and that just for basic UNIX (yes we are a bank obviously but ...)
Quote from: jibbajibba;729562Google tell me ....
According to GamaSutra, game designers had an average salary of around $67,379 in 2008. This is the total average of game designers at all levels across the United States. This average is higher than what it has been in the past. For instance, $63,649 was the average salary of game designers in 2007.
So I would expect a manager/team lead to be on 6 figures easily.
I mean we pay an experienced SA 6 figures + bonus and that just for basic UNIX (yes we are a bank obviously but ...)
Seriously, you pay a SA 6 figures? I thought those had died half a decade ago.
And yes, I'm in the IT business, and no SA I know of makes 6 figures. If they did, they were laid off and replaced by staff from overseas.
Quote from: Patrick Y.;729482Is he the guy who's been spouting off for months on the WotC site about being
a game developer with dozens of AAA titles, and so everyone should listen to him while he rails against damage on a miss fighter mechanics?
Or is there more than one?
If it is him, that guy cracks me up. If not, he should hook up with the other guy and take the show on the road.
Yup, it's that guy. I recall him doing it here at some point...maybe my memory is just shit though.
Anyone who claims to know something just because he makes six figures can put up or shut up. The only thing he's proven that he knows is how to negotiate a six figure salary. Aside from that, he might not know a goddamned thing, and the world's full of overpaid idiots who don't.
Quote from: flyerfan1991;729567Seriously, you pay a SA 6 figures? I thought those had died half a decade ago.
And yes, I'm in the IT business, and no SA I know of makes 6 figures. If they did, they were laid off and replaced by staff from overseas.
Yup 6 figures for senior SA, PM or whatever (so someone with 12+ years of experience)
I run the build team out here for APAC and I pay similar salaries in Singapore, bit less in HK.
That would be MtlKnight
He's been on an insane crusade against one single rule in D&D Next for months. Insane. Like, I'm pretty sure he's going to suicide bomb the WotC offices if this rule makes it into D&D5. The guy is completely bat shit.
Here (http://community.wizards.com/forum/dd-next-general-discussion/threads/4035056)
Quote from: Gizmoduck5000;729593That would be MtlKnight
He's been on an insane crusade against one single rule in D&D Next for months. Insane. Like, I'm pretty sure he's going to suicide bomb the WotC offices if this rule makes it into D&D5. The guy is completely bat shit.
Here (http://community.wizards.com/forum/dd-next-general-discussion/threads/4035056)
He is probably right, which of course doesn't stop him being Insane :)
Nothing you can't just house rule I reckon. Switch it for additional damage on a sucessful hit and you are golden.
Quote from: flyerfan1991;729466I thought it was Rooster.
But honestly, if someone is making six figures as a video game designer he/she is probably making that money by working insane hours. Like 80 hours a week.
Unlikely. Most actual dev positions are salaried for that reason. Ones that aren't salaried are typically *very* low paying.
Quote from: jibbajibba;729595He is probably right, which of course doesn't stop him being Insane :)
Nothing you can't just house rule I reckon. Switch it for additional damage on a sucessful hit and you are golden.
Of course. But he is absolutely, frothing-at-the-mouth bonkers over it.
I kind of hope that rule makes it in, just so I can see how catastrophic his inevitable meltdown will be.
Quote from: Gizmoduck5000;729593That would be MtlKnight
He's been on an insane crusade against one single rule in D&D Next for months. Insane. Like, I'm pretty sure he's going to suicide bomb the WotC offices if this rule makes it into D&D5. The guy is completely bat shit.
Here (http://community.wizards.com/forum/dd-next-general-discussion/threads/4035056)
I dunno. That does damage even on a miss is a little weird.
I'm not saying he's being sane about it, but I think he has a point about the rule in question...
Damage on a miss is stupid.
With that said, dismiss it from your game if you think it's stupid. If I ran 5e, I would.
Quote from: Gizmoduck5000;729593That would be MtlKnight
He's been on an insane crusade against one single rule in D&D Next for months. Insane. Like, I'm pretty sure he's going to suicide bomb the WotC offices if this rule makes it into D&D5. The guy is completely bat shit.
Here (http://community.wizards.com/forum/dd-next-general-discussion/threads/4035056)
OMG!!! WOTC has got to do something about this rule!!!!
Its bad for America!!!!
:rotfl:
I wouldn't use it, but I
really hope this rule makes into the core books at least as an option. I also want to see this guy's head explode on Youtube.
Quote from: jibbajibba;729580Yup 6 figures for senior SA, PM or whatever (so someone with 12+ years of experience)
I run the build team out here for APAC and I pay similar salaries in Singapore, bit less in HK.
If you let that out of the bag, you'd have thousands of SAs knocking on your door. Most of the SA salaries I know of have been stuck in a much lower range for ages, ever since shortly after the March 2000 dot net implosion and the rising tides of outsourcing to India/China/Manilla/etc. And that's nothing to say of the salary downward pressure created by the big outsourcers, like IBM, EDS/HP, and Infosys.
I work in the tech side myself, and while I'm a QA test manager here in the states, 90% of our devs are in India. The only reason my job hasn't been outsourced is because I also act as a liason between the business and the developers/PMs, and you can't really do that with someone overseas who doesn't have firsthand knowledge of how the business works.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;729643I work in the tech side myself, and while I'm a QA test manager here in the states, 90% of our devs are in India. The only reason my job hasn't been outsourced is because I also act as a liason between the business and the developers/PMs, and you can't really do that with someone overseas who doesn't have firsthand knowledge of how the business works.
I've seen teams try, and it usually hasn't gone over well. Typically those experiments last about six months --it could be less if there's a major issue-- and then they pull the responsibility back in house.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;729601Damage on a miss is stupid.
It is stupid except that a d20 roll of the dice in many editions of D&D doesn't represent the result of a single swing rather it is an abstract resolution of a period of combat.
However despite that I was the D&D Next designer I would not have damage on a miss ever. While I, as the designer, may consider and design the rules to abstract combat, the great majority of gamers naturally and understandably equate a dice roll to equal a swing of the weapons.
Rather than debate it, I would just concede and not have that rule.
Likely they are trying to represent the greater mass and force of two handed weapons. It probably overly fussy but the case was made that I had to represent this the rule would read some thing.
If swinging a two handed weapon, any attack that misses by X does 1 point of damage. I would set X to 2.
The more D&Dish way of giving 2 handed weapons a special characteristic due to mass would be
On a successful attack with a two handed weapons roll damage twice. Take the higher of the two rolls. In essence taking the idea of advantage but using it for damage roll.
You could even do it for daggers as well giving them a disadvantage for damage rolls.
Quote from: estar;729649It is stupid except that a d20 roll of the dice in many editions of D&D doesn't represent the result of a single swing rather it is an abstract resolution of a period of combat.
However despite that I was the D&D Next designer I would not have damage on a miss ever. While I, as the designer, may consider and design the rules to abstract combat, the great majority of gamers naturally and understandably equate a dice roll to equal a swing of the weapons.
Rather than debate it, I would just concede and not have that rule.
Likely they are trying to represent the greater mass and force of two handed weapons. It probably overly fussy but the case was made that I had to represent this the rule would read some thing.
If swinging a two handed weapon, any attack that misses by X does 1 point of damage. I would set X to 2.
The more D&Dish way of giving 2 handed weapons a special characteristic due to mass would be
On a successful attack with a two handed weapons roll damage twice. Take the higher of the two rolls. In essence taking the idea of advantage but using it for damage roll.
You could even do it for daggers as well giving them a disadvantage for damage rolls.
For the record, at first I was very much against damage on a miss. But I can actually rationalize it now. But as you say, it's better for D&D to just not have it in the rules.
For example, as you mention, AC and HP are abstract. You can hit someone, and it be a "miss" because you didn't break through their armor. So...
With a great weapon, even if you don't break through the armor, the force of your exceptional strength still reverberates past the armor and impacts hard. To illustrate this, block a two-handed maul with a shield and tell me how your arm feels. it should be noted that the damage isn't based on the weapon, but on your STR mod.
But again, it just doesn't
feel right to be in D&D, so while I can sort of rationalize it, I think it's better without it.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;729655But again, it just doesn't feel right to be in D&D, so while I can sort of rationalize it, I think it's better without it.
In other words doesn't feel D&Dish. ;).
It's again the question (and problem) of the abstraction of HPs, and to a lesser degree - attacks in a combat round. Which, I actually myself, haven't a problem with (as long as the rounds are 10 - 12 seconds long, heh). I'd rather see such rules done away with, as they feel a remnant of the 4e heavily abstracted design for me.
I don't do damage on a miss for martial combat. I'm cool with it for magic because it's magic. For martial combat, I tell the players that instead of X damage on a miss, they instead gain +X to their damage on a hit with that power. Nobody complains.
I agree damage on a miss is weird and I'm not a big fan but....
D&D 4e is chock full of damage on a miss!
Where has this guy been?
I wager it stays in as a tip o hat to 4ed.
At least we will know it was WoTC that ruined Amerca.
Quote from: flyerfan1991;729641If you let that out of the bag, you'd have thousands of SAs knocking on your door. Most of the SA salaries I know of have been stuck in a much lower range for ages, ever since shortly after the March 2000 dot net implosion and the rising tides of outsourcing to India/China/Manilla/etc. And that's nothing to say of the salary downward pressure created by the big outsourcers, like IBM, EDS/HP, and Infosys.
You need to do some more job research mate :-)
Check out average unix sa salaries for the top 10 us banks. You cand find data easily enough. But at this point i need to stop having this conversation owing to compliance issues.
Not having read the playtest material, do they actually say what damage on a miss is supposed to represent? I am just curious about the explanation because that would definitely shape my feelings about it. Is it supposed to be something like you slam your sword into someone with such force, even if they block there is enough power to do some minimal damage. Or is it meant to be some kind of underhanded manuever where you slip in some minor dirty trick to get a little bit of damage in. I am just not sure how the ability is presented in the first place.
I think that would work better with a Wounds/Vitality split. *The blow/swing was blocked/missed but the effort to avoid injury was still fatiguing* kind of thing.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;729981Not having read the playtest material, do they actually say what damage on a miss is supposed to represent? I am just curious about the explanation because that would definitely shape my feelings about it. Is it supposed to be something like you slam your sword into someone with such force, even if they block there is enough power to do some minimal damage. Or is it meant to be some kind of underhanded manuever where you slip in some minor dirty trick to get a little bit of damage in. I am just not sure how the ability is presented in the first place.
The problem has many levels. Firstly the round is a series of blows idea though referenced in the text is never actually thought of like that especially with special attacks. Second the armour makes you harder to hit model means that a blow could ring off your breastplate or it could miss by three feet. Thirdly hp are abstracted but not uniformly so you can't for example expend hp in order to have a blow miss and avoid an associated special effect.
So in this example if you say you miss but your blow rattles their armour but the guy you missed was an unarmoured wizard, it doesn't work. Likewise if you try to say that this mighty blow special attack with your two-handed sword is actually a flurry of mighty blows as an attack isn't just one swing... it doesn't work with the description. And if you say the blow is so mighty that you need to leap to one side and expend energy (=hp) then what is a reflex save for and how does that leap to one side differ fron the actual hit for 2 damage that triggers the weapon's poison/flame/level drain power.
The original abstract model has been usurped by the increasing sophistication of the game and the desire to add more options. This means that rules relying on that abstraction no longer makes sense. You need to simplify and unabstract (??) the model define it clearly then you can design to it in a consistent way.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;729981Not having read the playtest material, do they actually say what damage on a miss is supposed to represent? I am just curious about the explanation because that would definitely shape my feelings about it. Is it supposed to be something like you slam your sword into someone with such force, even if they block there is enough power to do some minimal damage. Or is it meant to be some kind of underhanded manuever where you slip in some minor dirty trick to get a little bit of damage in. I am just not sure how the ability is presented in the first place.
It is a fighting style called Great Weapon Fighting that can be picked by the Fighter. On a miss with a 2H or versatile weapon the fighter does damage equal to his strength modifier. There is no explanation or fluff text.
Quote from: jibbajibba;729983The original abstract model has been usurped by the increasing sophistication of the game and the desire to add more options. This means that rules relying on that abstraction no longer makes sense. You need to simplify and unabstract (??) the model define it clearly then you can design to it in a consistent way.
You are overthinking it.
The Great Weapon Fighting mechanic is fine with the the abstract of D&D combat. If want to get technical about I suppose you could say if the attack is higher than 10 + dex mod then it does damage on a miss. But that just make it more fussy.
The primary problem is not the "design" or the "abstraction". The problem is that vast majority of gamers equate a dice roll with a single swing the weapon. It is natural and logical to make this assumption. That is the primary problem with the mechanic not the design. For the above reason I would not include any type of damage/effect on a miss mechanic in a D&D derived game.
Maybe this guy is a SJW. Whilst you are all thinking physical damage and stress from combat, maybe someone coming at you with a 2H weapon and GWH feat thing is instilling in you Emotional Damage.
"Roll to see if you need to go and have a lay down in a darkened room, and if so for how long."
Quote from: jibbajibba;729983The problem has many levels. Firstly the round is a series of blows idea though referenced in the text is never actually thought of like that especially with special attacks. Second the armour makes you harder to hit model means that a blow could ring off your breastplate or it could miss by three feet. Thirdly hp are abstracted but not uniformly so you can't for example expend hp in order to have a blow miss and avoid an associated special effect.
So in this example if you say you miss but your blow rattles their armour but the guy you missed was an unarmoured wizard, it doesn't work. Likewise if you try to say that this mighty blow special attack with your two-handed sword is actually a flurry of mighty blows as an attack isn't just one swing... it doesn't work with the description. And if you say the blow is so mighty that you need to leap to one side and expend energy (=hp) then what is a reflex save for and how does that leap to one side differ fron the actual hit for 2 damage that triggers the weapon's poison/flame/level drain power.
The original abstract model has been usurped by the increasing sophistication of the game and the desire to add more options. This means that rules relying on that abstraction no longer makes sense. You need to simplify and unabstract (??) the model define it clearly then you can design to it in a consistent way.
I was just trying to find out what explanation the power description offers.
Quote from: BarefootGaijin;729988Maybe this guy is a SJW. Whilst you are all thinking physical damage and stress from combat, maybe someone coming at you with a 2H weapon and GWH feat thing is instilling in you Emotional Damage.
Great. Now all the min/maxers will be playing hetero white male Christian jocks, because each of those categories grants an extra +1 emotional damage to the target...
Quote from: Sacrosanct;729996Great. Now all the min/maxers will be playing hetero white male Christian jocks, because each of those categories grants an extra +1 emotional damage to the target...
And of course they are immune to emotional damage themselves :-)
Quote from: estar;729987You are overthinking it.
The Great Weapon Fighting mechanic is fine with the the abstract of D&D combat. If want to get technical about I suppose you could say if the attack is higher than 10 + dex mod then it does damage on a miss. But that just make it more fussy.
The primary problem is not the "design" or the "abstraction". The problem is that vast majority of gamers equate a dice roll with a single swing the weapon. It is natural and logical to make this assumption. That is the primary problem with the mechanic not the design. For the above reason I would not include any type of damage/effect on a miss mechanic in a D&D derived game.
Disagree and i covered your point already. Whilst the text says that no one thinks of it like that even the dsigners introduce cleave attacks, pin attacks blah blah allof which assume a single strike.
So the question is do you stick to a description that the rules no longer reflect or do you accept how the rules actually work and rewrite the description to fit.
Quote from: jibbajibba;729999Disagree and i covered your point already. Whilst the text says that no one thinks of it like that even the dsigners introduce cleave attacks, pin attacks blah blah allof which assume a single strike.
So the question is do you stick to a description that the rules no longer reflect or do you accept how the rules actually work and rewrite the description to fit.
Modern D&D has moved so far away from the abstractions its designs are rooted in that thev whole thing is already a clusterfuck at this point. This confusion and mix of discrete action and abstraction has caused more headaches about issues like this, the whole action economy load pigshit and a slew of other problems.
D&D needed to shit or get off the pot and decide if it was an abstract game or not over 30 years ago and its still fucking constipated.
Quote from: Exploderwizard;730044Modern D&D has moved so far away from the abstractions its designs are rooted in that thev whole thing is already a clusterfuck at this point. This confusion and mix of discrete action and abstraction has caused more headaches about issues like this, the whole action economy load pigshit and a slew of other problems.
D&D needed to shit or get off the pot and decide if it was an abstract game or not over 30 years ago and its still fucking constipated.
Agreed. The game has to determine its underlying combat paradigm and then follow that through to its implementation
Quote from: Exploderwizard;730044Modern D&D has moved so far away from the abstractions its designs are rooted in that thev whole thing is already a clusterfuck at this point. This confusion and mix of discrete action and abstraction has caused more headaches about issues like this, the whole action economy load pigshit and a slew of other problems.
D&D needed to shit or get off the pot and decide if it was an abstract game or not over 30 years ago and its still fucking constipated.
But I think the issue is, because it hasn't done so, the game is a bit of a blend, and anytime they try to go one direction or the other, they alienate segments of the play base. In my experience, people kind of see what they want in the D&D combat system. If you don't think too hard on it, you don't really notice. So for doing damage on a miss, I think the test is whether it has the kind of effect something like Healing surges had, where it amplified an issue you might otherwise have ignored.
My problem with it, based on Estar's explanation, is there doesn't even seem to be an effort to describe what it is at all, it is purely mechanical. I just do not like that kind of design. Like they started with the idea of letting people do damage on a miss, rather than starting with something cool they wanted fighters to be able to do in combat, then creating a mechanic to represent that. I am not sure it quite rises to the level of healing surges for me in terms of jarring me out of the game, but that also kind of depends on what the description of the ability actually is. I see the issue, I just don't know that I would be that aware of it during play or not.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;730057My problem with it, based on Estar's explanation, is there doesn't even seem to be an effort to describe what it is at all, it is purely mechanical. I just do not like that kind of design.
I agree but I also will point out this is not unique to the Great Weapon Fighting style. The entire playtest has very little description. I don't view this as a problem of the playtest. My own Fudge rules read very much like this at this point in time.
Quote from: BedrockBrendan;730057Like they started with the idea of letting people do damage on a miss, rather than starting with something cool they wanted fighters to be able to do in combat, then creating a mechanic to represent that.
In my opinion it doesn't come off like that at all. It is part of list of fighting styles; Archery, Defense, Great Weapon Fighting, Protection, and Two-Weapon Fighting.
Archery = +1 to ranged weapons
Defense = +1 to AC
Great Weapon Fighting - Strength Bonus as Damage on a miss
Protection - impose disadvantage on a target within 5 ft if armed.
Two-Weapon Fighting - Add ability modifiers to 2nd Attack when using two weapons.
As stated earlier my take on Great Weapon Style would have been to roll damage twice take the higher result.
Quote from: flyerfan1991;729466I thought it was Rooster.
But honestly, if someone is making six figures as a video game designer he/she is probably making that money by working insane hours. Like 80 hours a week.
They probably do work insane hours but six figures for a good game programmer is not crazy talk. I really doubt than any board or rpg game developers make that much money. Maybe a few like Steve Jackson who own their own company do.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;729601Damage on a miss is stupid.
With that said, dismiss it from your game if you think it's stupid. If I ran 5e, I would.
It is dumb and wotc should consider that some people will not buy 5e just because of it. Will anyone not buy it if it isn't in there? I doubt it. They have more to lose by including it than by getting rid of it.
Quote from: jibbajibba;730054Agreed. The game has to determine its underlying combat paradigm and then follow that through to its implementation
Isn't that what they did with 4e? That's where abstract bullshit like damage on a miss comes from.
Quote from: estar;729984It is a fighting style called Great Weapon Fighting that can be picked by the Fighter. On a miss with a 2H or versatile weapon the fighter does damage equal to his strength modifier. There is no explanation or fluff text.
So if I make a fighter with a 9 strength, can I heal people by missing them?
Quote from: estar;730063I agree but I also will point out this is not unique to the Great Weapon Fighting style. The entire playtest has very little description. I don't view this as a problem of the playtest. My own Fudge rules read very much like this at this point in time.
And i havent really been following the playtest much, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. I realize they could just be focusing on the mechanical side in order to playtest it.
QuoteIn my opinion it doesn't come off like that at all. It is part of list of fighting styles; Archery, Defense, Great Weapon Fighting, Protection, and Two-Weapon Fighting.
Archery = +1 to ranged weapons
Defense = +1 to AC
Great Weapon Fighting - Strength Bonus as Damage on a miss
Protection - impose disadvantage on a target within 5 ft if armed.
Two-Weapon Fighting - Add ability modifiers to 2nd Attack when using two weapons.
As stated earlier my take on Great Weapon Style would have been to roll damage twice take the higher result.
I see, i missed that it is part of a style listl. that makes a bit more sense. I keep going back to this image of a foghter plowing through his opponent's defenses to cause some minimal amount of harm. If that is what they are shooting for, it seems an alright approach. But it sounds like it is more about wielding a massive weapon and causing minimal damage through that in a similar way. Probably better for them to avoid the problem entirely and adjust it so people find it less jarring (because they really don't need discussions like the ones you had for come and get it, right out of the gate).
Your approach is probably better because it still allows for a miss, which seems to be what is messing with most people (and i am seeing a lot of complaints about this online).
Quote from: mhensley;730071Isn't that what they did with 4e? That's where abstract bullshit like damage on a miss comes from.
Not abstract damage on a miss comes from actually running hp as written. So hp are a mix of luck, stamina, skill etc not just physical damage.
The result of that is that is that you could miss but still causeca loss of energy. So its concrete rather than abstract. However, they didn't follow through hp act like this sometimes, healing surges etc but not all the time they are also the physical damage as well. A wound/vitality option is a fix.
So they keep abstract hp mixed with concrete effects.
Now that ignores the fact that most d&d players prefer abstract hp. So the most sucessful choice would have been to keep hp as they were in previous editions. Meaning an abstract mix of stuff and thus only a hit can do damage because all hits include real damage, just like healing surges don't work because any healing includes some real damage.
Personally i prefer the concrete model of wound/vitality (as i have detailed at length before) but the key here is that needed to pick a position to make it coherent. Instead they chose neither and went for a kludge.
Quote from: mhensley;730065They probably do work insane hours but six figures for a good game programmer is not crazy talk. I really doubt than any board or rpg game developers make that much money. Maybe a few like Steve Jackson who own their own company do.
I make six figures a year on my RPG stuff (if you count cents) ;)
Quote from: mhensley;730067It is dumb and wotc should consider that some people will not buy 5e just because of it. Will anyone not buy it if it isn't in there? I doubt it. They have more to lose by including it than by getting rid of it.
If someone refuses to buy a game based on that
one very minor rule, then they're a tool. No game has every single rule that I adore, and I'm willing to bet 99% of gamers ignore at least one minor thing from every game they play.
I mean, we're not talking about some core aspect of the game. We're talking about one minor option from a list of options from one class.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;730085We're talking about one minor option from a list of options from one class.
Three classes actually.
Quote from: Mistwell;730096Three classes actually.
Still. It's incredibly minor, and extremely easy to ignore completely.
Quote from: jibbajibba;729977You need to do some more job research mate :-)
Check out average unix sa salaries for the top 10 us banks. You cand find data easily enough. But at this point i need to stop having this conversation owing to compliance issues.
My experience locally is that 6 figure salaries in IT are far from exceptional. I think the disconnect could be that we both work in first world countries ;-)
That or games companies pay a lot less because the huge number of applicants for that niche of the industry. I could easily believe that.
Quote from: jibbajibba;729977You need to do some more job research mate :-)
Check out average unix sa salaries for the top 10 us banks. You cand find data easily enough. But at this point i need to stop having this conversation owing to compliance issues.
My experience locally is that 6 figure salaries in IT are far from exceptional. I think the disconnect could be that we both work in first world countries ;-)
That or games companies pay a lot less because the huge number of applicants for that niche of the industry. I could easily believe that.
Quote from: Sacrosanct;730107Still. It's incredibly minor, and extremely easy to ignore completely.
agreed
Quote from: Fiasco;730151My experience locally is that 6 figure salaries in IT are far from exceptional. I think the disconnect could be that we both work in first world countries ;-)
That or games companies pay a lot less because the huge number of applicants for that niche of the industry. I could easily believe that.
My experiences have been the exact opposite. IT used to have a lot of six figure salaries, but downward salary pressure from offshoring and outsourcing has eliminated a lot of them, particularly non-management positions in areas not known as hot spots like Silicon Valley. A big part of the allure of outsourcing is that instead of paying 3 people 100k each to do IT, you can have a company come in that will pay six people overseas 30k or less a year to do the same job. When I hear about companies complaining they don't have enough people in the US for IT work and they need to expand H1B visas, what they really mean is that they don't have people here who will take IT jobs for 30k a year.
I can't really say more due to the fact I kind of like to keep my job, but when we read articles touting the earning potential of IT jobs, my friends/coworkers and I all laugh.
Quote from: flyerfan1991;730231what they really mean is that they don't have people here who will take IT jobs for 30k a year.
If college grads want a 30k salary, they can work for WotC/Hasbro. :D
Quote from: S'mon;730255If college grads want a 30k salary, they can work for WotC/Hasbro. :D
Fuck that. They can get work producing web content for an e-commerce site and make about 30k. Probably have more job security too.
Quote from: Gizmoduck5000;730276Fuck that. They can get work producing web content for an e-commerce site and make about 30k. Probably have more job security too.
Not when you can get people from Manilla to do it for $500/month.
Quote from: flyerfan1991;730231My experiences have been the exact opposite. IT used to have a lot of six figure salaries, but downward salary pressure from offshoring and outsourcing has eliminated a lot of them, particularly non-management positions in areas not known as hot spots like Silicon Valley. A big part of the allure of outsourcing is that instead of paying 3 people 100k each to do IT, you can have a company come in that will pay six people overseas 30k or less a year to do the same job. When I hear about companies complaining they don't have enough people in the US for IT work and they need to expand H1B visas, what they really mean is that they don't have people here who will take IT jobs for 30k a year.
I can't really say more due to the fact I kind of like to keep my job, but when we read articles touting the earning potential of IT jobs, my friends/coworkers and I all laugh.
I don't think Australia is as far along the outsourcing journey but from what I've seen the moment you try to outsource anything but the basic stuff you run into trouble. Yes IT workers cost 1/4 or less the if you outsource from say Bangalore but if management, training and communication are not up to scratch you don't realize anything like that efficiency.
Maybe in the future, manual labor and service jobs will pay the best because:
A. There are too many people with college degrees in certain fields.
B. lazy people will not be interested in manual labor.
C. they are considered dangerous.
"Why not consider a career in trash hauling? It pays 100K a year!"
"Yuck, it's so dirty and dangerous. I might pick up all kinds of germs."
:D
In actuality though, I think the best jobs will probably be the trades, like they are now. Plumbing, heating/cooling, electrical.
Quote from: Endless Flight;730313Maybe in the future, manual labor and service jobs will pay the best because:
A. There are too many people with college degrees in certain fields.
B. lazy people will not be interested in manual labor.
C. they are considered dangerous.
"Why not consider a career in trash hauling? It pays 100K a year!"
"Yuck, it's so dirty and dangerous. I might pick up all kinds of germs."
:D
In actuality though, I think the best jobs will probably be the trades, like they are now. Plumbing, heating/cooling, electrical.
Certainly the case in Australia. A successful tradesman earns at least as much as your average white collar worker with a degree. But then until recently it was pretty cheap to earn a degree. But the rider there is 'successfull' trades person e.g runs their own business. Won't earn nearly as well working for someone else.
Quote from: Fiasco;730310I don't think Australia is as far along the outsourcing journey but from what I've seen the moment you try to outsource anything but the basic stuff you run into trouble. Yes IT workers cost 1/4 or less the if you outsource from say Bangalore but if management, training and communication are not up to scratch you don't realize anything like that efficiency.
Outsourcing is great. It spreads the results of capitalist endeavour to countries that otherwise would be living in poverty. I always laugh when a bloke in London complains his job has been oursourced to Bangalore and I have to point out he was working for a US bank who had outsourced it to the UK in the first place.
There are excellent resources in India and the Philippines, in fact the Philippines has some of the best techies I have met. However, there are other presures on jobs outside of simple cost avoidance so some firms, without being specific, might choose to move labour from low cost locations to high cost locations for business reasons beyond "yey I can get a UNIX SA for $20K a year".
I think the top end companies are now in a post outsourcing phase where the roles that can be outsourced and work with that paradigm are working and some roles that don't work as well are being pulled back due to other business drivers. Now that doesn't mean that those jobs will be coming back to the US or Europe necessarily, but places like here in Singapore, or HK are developing rapidly. Singapore and HK are more expensive than NY to live and wages reflect that.
As for tradesmen. When I was fixing up my house in the UK I employed my Brother-in-law's sons to do some basic labouring and clearing work. All three were stroppy teenagers destined to be living on benefits. I tried to explain to them that I was smart, had attended two of the top universities in the world, worked for a massive US bank and ..... still earned the same as the guy that was fixing my central heating. One got a job as a mechanic, one got an apprentiship with an electrician, the other didn't.... :)
But that will level out as well. the UK has seen an influx of EU citizerns from Poland in particular, who will do the same jobs for 1/2 the price. I happen to think that is fine because paying a plumber GBP 100.00 Call out + GBP 50 per half or or part thereof worked was absolute daylight robbery.....
Quote from: jibbajibba;730345I think the top end companies are now in a post outsourcing phase where the roles that can be outsourced and work with that paradigm are working and some roles that don't work as well are being pulled back due to other business drivers. Now that doesn't mean that those jobs will be coming back to the US or Europe necessarily, but places like here in Singapore, or HK are developing rapidly. Singapore and HK are more expensive than NY to live and wages reflect that.
As for tradesmen. When I was fixing up my house in the UK I employed my Brother-in-law's sons to do some basic labouring and clearing work. All three were stroppy teenagers destined to be living on benefits. I tried to explain to them that I was smart, had attended two of the top universities in the world, worked for a massive US bank and ..... still earned the same as the guy that was fixing my central heating. One got a job as a mechanic, one got an apprentiship with an electrician, the other didn't.... :)
But that will level out as well. the UK has seen an influx of EU citizerns from Poland in particular, who will do the same jobs for 1/2 the price. I happen to think that is fine because paying a plumber GBP 100.00 Call out + GBP 50 per half or or part thereof worked was absolute daylight robbery.....
Those rates are the same here. The only downside to a trade is that by the time you're in your 50s your body tends to be pretty beat up.
What's this about again?
Quote from: One Horse Town;730381What's this about again?
Not fuckin' RPGs, that's for sure.
Quote from: One Horse Town;730381What's this about again?
It was originally about The Rooster, of all people.
Quote from: flyerfan1991;730386It was originally about The Rooster, of all people.
Right. Well, as it's now about white collar kids trading salaries, i think i can close it.