The Worst-ever TSR D&D setting?

Rincewind1 · January 23, 2014, 03:42:42 PM

Quote from: Bill;725845Technically one could run a Ravenloft game without any undead.

Not if you count werewolves as undead

.

Bill · January 23, 2014, 04:00:09 PM

Quote from: Rincewind1;725846Not if you count werewolves as undead .

I would consider them living creatures, but you could have Cthulhu-ish monstrosities, mad scientists, serial killers, witches, etc...and never use undead.

Shipyard Locked · January 23, 2014, 05:50:04 PM

Quote from: Bill;725853I would consider them living creatures, but you could have Cthulhu-ish monstrosities, mad scientists, serial killers, witches, etc...and never use undead.

True, but undead are such a workhorse in that setting. Now their might be a certain artistic flair to excluding them*, but I'm not interested in that particular experiment, or Ravenloft itself at this point in my life. Of all the D&D settings I think it handled its "D&D-isms" with the least grace.

* Reminds me of how the Planescape: Torment video game deliberately offered no swords for the main character to use, just to increase the exoticism of the goings-on.

Bill · January 24, 2014, 09:28:20 AM

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;725883True, but undead are such a workhorse in that setting. Now their might be a certain artistic flair to excluding them*, but I'm not interested in that particular experiment, or Ravenloft itself at this point in my life. Of all the D&D settings I think it handled its "D&D-isms" with the least grace.

* Reminds me of how the Planescape: Torment video game deliberately offered no swords for the main character to use, just to increase the exoticism of the goings-on.

Admittedly I am biased toward Ravenloft. Its my second favorite dnd setting after Dark Sun.

Although my fondness for Ravenloft plummets when a player actively tries to become a Darklord.

Warthur · January 24, 2014, 12:35:30 PM

Quote from: Bill;726098Admittedly I am biased toward Ravenloft. Its my second favorite dnd setting after Dark Sun.

Although my fondness for Ravenloft plummets when a player actively tries to become a Darklord.

Otherwise known as the "KULT Gambit".

"So, the route to ultimate power is through ultimate depravity, huh? Interesting, interesting. OK, next question: where is the nearest orphanage?"

I find a lot of those issues with Ravenloft, as with KULT, go away if you maintain enforce IC/OOC knowledge separation. Sure, the players know what a Darklord is and how to become one, but the PCs don't, and nor do most of the inhabitants of Ravenloft, the majority of whom probably aren't even aware they're stuck on a demiplane.

Bedrockbrendan · January 24, 2014, 12:46:44 PM

Quote from: Warthur;726145Otherwise known as the "KULT Gambit".

"So, the route to ultimate power is through ultimate depravity, huh? Interesting, interesting. OK, next question: where is the nearest orphanage?"

I find a lot of those issues with Ravenloft, as with KULT, go away if you maintain enforce IC/OOC knowledge separation. Sure, the players know what a Darklord is and how to become one, but the PCs don't, and nor do most of the inhabitants of Ravenloft, the majority of whom probably aren't even aware they're stuck on a demiplane.

Also, when you become a darklord, you automatically change to an NPC under the rules.

Warthur · January 24, 2014, 12:58:17 PM

I don't think becoming a darklord is the problem so much as the process of trying to get there in the first place, if you see what I mean (since the players who pull this stunt tend to use it as an excuse to get as juvenile and edgy as possible).

Bedrockbrendan · January 24, 2014, 01:11:49 PM

Quote from: Warthur;726151I don't think becoming a darklord is the problem so much as the process of trying to get there in the first place, if you see what I mean (since the players who pull this stunt tend to use it as an excuse to get as juvenile and edgy as possible).

Sure, they could just be in it for the trip, and not concerned with playing an actual darklord...for me that is fine though. If someone fails powers checks that can be an interesting development but it is meant to be a double edged sword. So for every perk you get during the transformation, there is supposed to be a genuine cost. Also, someone going down that road, will tend to attract the van richten's of the world if they are leaving a trail of bodies.

I think this is an issue where the GM matters a great deal. If the GM is not playing the dark powers well, then it can get crazy, but if he is using powers checks as they are supposed to be used and playing the dark powers right, it works fine.

Warthur · January 24, 2014, 01:25:23 PM

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;726155Sure, they could just be in it for the trip, and not concerned with playing an actual darklord...for me that is fine though. If someone fails powers checks that can be an interesting development but it is meant to be a double edged sword. So for every perk you get during the transformation, there is supposed to be a genuine cost. Also, someone going down that road, will tend to attract the van richten's of the world if they are leaving a trail of bodies.

Again, I think you're missing my point - I'm not concerned about the game mechanical aspects of it in the slightest, I just find that the players who take that route tend to be showboaty showoffs and kind of boring.

Shipyard Locked · January 24, 2014, 01:37:47 PM

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;726155If someone fails powers checks that can be an interesting development but it is meant to be a double edged sword. So for every perk you get during the transformation, there is supposed to be a genuine cost.

I find that system to be a real drain on the GM. You have to come up with balanced thematically appropriate linked curses/powers that happen to scale with each failed check and match the player's actions, taking valuable time from other campaign considerations.

And another thing: That massive list of minor tweaks to various spells. I couldn't quite keep all that straight in my head in actual play.

Bedrockbrendan · January 24, 2014, 01:40:21 PM

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;726163I find that system to be a real drain on the GM. You have to come up with balanced thematically appropriate linked curses/powers that happen to scale with each failed check and match the player's actions, taking valuable time from other campaign considerations.

It takes time to get used to, but if you run Ravenloft enough it becomes like second nature. However if you are stuck in the moment it occurs, you can take five to come up with something. In my experience players don't usually mind this if it is to come up with a fitting response to the failed powers check. It certainly isn't for everybody, but this was honestly one of the features of Ravenloft I felt really made the setting shine.

Bedrockbrendan · January 24, 2014, 01:43:55 PM

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;726163And another thing: That massive list of minor tweaks to various spells. I couldn't quite keep all that straight in my head in actual play.

Well, these were all on the Ravenloft GM screen if you had it (if you didn't I believe there was a master list on the card stock). This part of the game never gave me any trouble. It was pretty easy to implement, especially since you could look at the player spell lists prior to play and check them against the changes.

Again, Ravenloft wasn't for everyone, but I thought it was a great setting. I always had a blast there as a player or GM.

flyingcircus · January 24, 2014, 02:15:35 PM

Quote from: Imperator;524820As far as I remembered it, everything was Christian, no Mormon weirdness. And it was infuriating.

Cool.

Jeeze give it a rest already, so you're an atheist, so fuckin' what. Sell the book, don't read it, who da hell cares? Now,
Go home and cry to momma.

Bedrockbrendan · January 24, 2014, 02:23:59 PM

Quote from: flyingcircus;726179Jeeze give it a rest already, so you're an atheist, so fuckin' what. Sell the book, don't read it, who da hell cares? Now,
Go home and cry to momma.

The christian themes in DL never bothered me. There are christian themes in Chronicles of Narnia and in Lord of the Ring's as well, but you can read them and enjoy them without focusing on that (just like a believer can still enjoy the golden compass). With DL the value it gave someone like me, where d&d was taking a lot of heat from the religious right, was i could point to it as an example of how christianity and dungeons and dragons were not incompatible.

Shipyard Locked · January 24, 2014, 05:33:38 PM

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;726164It takes time to get used to, but if you run Ravenloft enough it becomes like second nature.

Perhaps this is a larger issue for me, never sticking with something long enough to achieve true mastery; I ran two medium-sized campaigns in Ravenloft, and if I'm honest I was getting much better at it by the end.

Still, I think the spell list would have been improved by having stuck to a few easy to apply general rules. The whole thing could be pared down by 60% without noticeable loss of flavor.