Quote from: Shipyard Locked;726231Perhaps this is a larger issue for me, never sticking with something long enough to achieve true mastery; I ran two medium-sized campaigns in Ravenloft, and if I'm honest I was getting much better at it by the end.

I ran Ravenloft pretty much exclusively for most of the 90s so that probably led me to be pretty comfortable with most of these things. I was an unrepentant fanboy. At a couple of points i had two seperate Ravenloft campaigns running at the same time.

QuoteStill, I think the spell list would have been improved by having stuck to a few easy to apply general rules. The whole thing could be pared down by 60% without noticeable loss of flavor.

If it bothered you, then it bothered you, and i can see why you would want it paired down. Personally, i feel it added a lot having it, and i think the problem with general rules you can apply is they would become predictable to players (and the idea with the twists was really to surprise players a bit when they come over from different settings).

Out of curiosity were you using the black box, the red box or Domains of Dread? If simplicity is the goal, grabbing the black boxed set and Feast of goblyns (because it has the gm screen and the ravenloft character sheet) is the best way to go.

Where i think they could pair things down in the system is some of the rules expansions in later material and DoD. The powers checks steps in DoD (and i think in the red box as well if i am recalling correctly) got a bit convoluted. I liked that they hammered out the percentages for specific acts, that was useful (and again i think that was a red boxed set innovation) but the 13 steps was too much in my opinion. Also the fear-horror-madness rules got a little complicated too by then (though the choice to expand them made sense given the competition at the time).

Honestly, the Christian/Mormon elements in DL are very subtle.  It would be very hard for anyone who isn't a mormon or very familiar with their theology to even realize that's what's going on there.

As a Mormon, I'd say "thin" rather than "subtle."  As a reader, I honestly doubt Tracy Hickman has the craft neccessary to manage "subtle" in any case.

Quote from: David Johansen;726747As a Mormon, I'd say "thin" rather than "subtle."  As a reader, I honestly doubt Tracy Hickman has the craft neccessary to manage "subtle" in any case.

Okay, what are the elements, anyway?  I'm not familiar with the details of Mormonism.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;726163I find that system to be a real drain on the GM. You have to come up with balanced thematically appropriate linked curses/powers that happen to scale with each failed check and match the player's actions, taking valuable time from other campaign considerations.

And another thing: That massive list of minor tweaks to various spells. I couldn't quite keep all that straight in my head in actual play.

When in a pinch, draw from other systems. Those were designed for Gifts of Chaos, so they are usually double edged. When in doubt, roll twice and combine positive and the negative somewhat. http://www.slackratchet.com/rough2.htm

Quote from: flyerfan1991;726813Okay, what are the elements, anyway?  I'm not familiar with the details of Mormonism.

Well, I suppose that the world is full of false priests worshiping false gods at the start and the true faith is restored is the big one.

There's the Disks of Mishkal as the restored scripture and people equate it to the golden plates Joseph Smith translated The Book of Mormon from.

Some people try to turn the very pedestrian Tanis, Laurana, Kitiara love triangle into a polygamy thing.

Except, Mormons regard The Holy Bible as scripture and other Christians as ernest worshipers of God.  Joseph Smith didn't have to crawl a dungeon and fight a black dragon.  And Tanis doesn't wind up with Kitiara and Laurana and neither would either of them settle for second place there.

Thin doesn't mean nonexistant, it means pretty minimal.

Quote from: David Johansen;726818Well, I suppose that the world is full of false priests worshiping false gods at the start and the true faith is restored is the big one.

There's the Disks of Mishkal as the restored scripture and people equate it to the golden plates Joseph Smith translated The Book of Mormon from.

Some people try to turn the very pedestrian Tanis, Laurana, Kitiara love triangle into a polygamy thing.

Except, Mormons regard The Holy Bible as scripture and other Christians as ernest worshipers of God.  Joseph Smith didn't have to crawl a dungeon and fight a black dragon.  And Tanis doesn't wind up with Kitiara and Laurana and neither would either of them settle for second place there.

Thin doesn't mean nonexistant, it means pretty minimal.

Okay, I'd not have guessed all that.  I figured it closer to the standard restoration of the gods meme that you find throughout history.

Seriously, it was.

But some people see Dragon Lance as the point at which D&D jumped the shark and when they're looking to defend that position they don't look much farther than Tracy Hickman.  You've got a whitewashed game and a creepy clean psuedo-Christian cultist to blame.

Really, I don't think it holds up well at all from inside Mormonism, Though I haven't read past the ninth book.  And seven to nine were really just bits and pieces of the first six.

As for D&D jumping the shark, I'd go with 1e really, if the stories of the Blumes forcing Gary to pander to specific interest groups are true and his own house rules were better even back then.

Quote from: David Johansen;726834Seriously, it was.

But some people see Dragon Lance as the point at which D&D jumped the shark and when they're looking to defend that position they don't look much farther than Tracy Hickman.  You've got a whitewashed game and a creepy clean psuedo-Christian cultist to blame.

Really, I don't think it holds up well at all from inside Mormonism, Though I haven't read past the ninth book.  And seven to nine were really just bits and pieces of the first six.

As for D&D jumping the shark, I'd go with 1e really, if the stories of the Blumes forcing Gary to pander to specific interest groups are true and his own house rules were better even back then.

I only read the first nine myself, figuring that was the story with a few extra short stories thrown in for good measure.  But I know some who read all of them (and I do mean ALL of them), and they loved the entire series.  Never heard about Christian imagery out of them at all.

Well, it's specific to Mormonism and, like I say, very thin even then.  Many Christians don't consider Mormons to be Christians in the first place so it's fringe enough to be easy to miss anyhow.

Nothing on the scale of Battlefield Earth's links to Scientology.

Quote from: David Johansen;726747As a Mormon, I'd say "thin" rather than "subtle."  As a reader, I honestly doubt Tracy Hickman has the craft neccessary to manage "subtle" in any case.

Having spoken with Tracy in the 90s... Have to agree. Subtle they aint.

I have a very vague recollection that the cleric of the true faith in the party is from a culture with a kind of pseudo-Native American aesthetic, despite having very European features, which is reminiscent of Mormonism offering a history of the pre-Columbus Americas which is rather divergent from the historical consensus (Native American tribes being descendants of Israelites who made an epic trans-Atlantic voyage and whatnot).

Quote from: Warthur;726910I have a very vague recollection that the cleric of the true faith in the party is from a culture with a kind of pseudo-Native American aesthetic, despite having very European features, which is reminiscent of Mormonism offering a history of the pre-Columbus Americas which is rather divergent from the historical consensus (Native American tribes being descendants of Israelites who made an epic trans-Atlantic voyage and whatnot).

I thought it was just Larry diidnt draw & paint them very Native American-ish?
And the descriptions of the culture were vague enough they could have been African and who'd have known without the art or I believe mention of skin tone in the books?

Quote from: RPGPundit;725594Yes, this.  I think that it was maybe the first D&D product I got where it was Official and where it changed the rules in significant ways.  It turned me on to the fact I could do the same, that really anything was up for grabs.

Not to mention that along with Port Blacksand and Sanctuary, it cemented my love for city-based setting in grubby dark lawless metropolises.

RPGPundit

I should probably set a Swords & Sorcery game in Las Vegas.

JG

Quote from: flyingcircus;726179Jeeze give it a rest already, so you're an atheist, so fuckin' what.  Sell the book, don't read it, who da hell cares?  Now,
Go home and cry to momma.

Dude.