Quote from: pemerton;724179I've noticed more than one "This Machine Kills Fascists" tag on posters on this thread - I assume that they're not really Woody Guthrie fans, but is anyone seriously comparing The Forge to Fascism? Where is the street violence and the takeover of (formerly) democratic polities?

It's a tag all of the moderators have and yes, it's because Pundit is a Woody Guthrie fan.

Our sole purpose for existing isn't taking pot-shots at the Forge. :rotfl:

Quote from: pemerton;724179I've noticed more than one "This Machine Kills Fascists" tag on posters on this thread - I assume that they're not really Woody Guthrie fans, but is anyone seriously comparing The Forge to Fascism? Where is the street violence and the takeover of (formerly) democratic polities?

As OHT said, the machine kills fascists is the moderator tag. If it has any meaning beyond Pundit's love of Woody Guthrie, I don't know. but i see it more as reminder to not be fascists ourselves as mods and in reference to our mod policies (which are pretty light).

I think you will find many of the posters here are not enamored with the forge. But there are varying degrees of hostility toward it and there are also a few defenders of it. My sense is much of the hostility stems from the predominant styles of play here being on the immersionist end of the spectrum. Personally, I don't have any gripes with Ron or with people who find the forge helpful, i just find the jargon and models not helpful to me in my gaming (and when i have encountered strong proponents of forge theory who try to get me to agree with them, i will admit it annoys me a bit). I do not see the forge as fascist. I think there is a bit of elitism in some of it though.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;724186(...) I think there is a bit of elitism in some of it though.

While I've no experience interacting on any of the Forge-related boards, the handful of Forge/Edwards cultists on a local game forum I used to moderate were more than just "a bit" elitist about their faith, hehe. The pseudo-intellectual smugness is actually what I found the most off-putting about the whole thing.

Quote from: 3rik;724205While I've no experience interacting on any of the Forge-related boards, the handful of Forge/Edwards cultists on a local game forum I used to moderate were more than just "a bit" elitist about their faith, hehe. The pseudo-intellectual smugness is actually what I found the most off-putting about the whole thing.

I haven't met anyone in my regular gaming who was into the forge so I have no real sense of that one way or the other. But the forge strikes me as very academic in its styling (like critical theory or something) and I find that can encourage elitism because it seperates itself with a language and to participate you need to learn the language.

Pundit is a Guthrie fan?

I like Guthrie myself, I just found it a bit surprising but, well, very cool.
(I've come to consider Pundit the kinda guy that definitely grows on you.)

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;724207I haven't met anyone in my regular gaming who was into the forge so I have no real sense of that one way or the other. But the forge strikes me as very academic in its styling (like critical theory or something) and I find that can encourage elitism because it seperates itself with a language and to participate you need to learn the language.

None of my regular gaming group are active online. It was just three or four Forge converts on an otherwise fairly traditional board posting seemingly civilized pseudo-intellectual monologues claiming that we were all doing it wrong, resulting in gaming that was "uninteresting"; doing it wrong was perfectly fine if that was what we enjoyed, of course, but it was still wrong and they were the ones who, guided by the genius of Ron Edwards et al, had seen the Light of True Gaming. And that was even before they started to throw their lingo around.

Gamers who don't go to gaming boards are not even aware that this thing ever existed, let alone influenced by it. I certainly never felt any need to inform my players about any of it.

Quote from: pemerton;724179I've noticed more than one "This Machine Kills Fascists" tag on posters on this thread - I assume that they're not really Woody Guthrie fans, but is anyone seriously comparing The Forge to Fascism? Where is the street violence and the takeover of (formerly) democratic polities?

Sorry. That's not what fascism is, i.e. it isn't defined by instances of its effects, but by its actual philosophy.

Fascism is based on the fascio (the bundle, the sheaf), the idea that there is one leader (or ruling body, party, etc) that embodies everything that is right about the Nation, organization or society, and that opposition to this leading entity is treason towards the State, organization or society concerned. Everyone must rally around the leader and fit within the fascio, or become alienated from it.



Political red herrings aside, the comparison with the Forge can be explained in the way the believers apply its theory to all gamers and games, and that if they are not fitting that particular way to conceptualize games and gamers, then they must be brain-damaged (as White Wolf gamers apparently were), deluded (as Simulationists who have not come to terms with the fact they must have a creative agenda and therefore are either proto Gamists or Narrativists must be), and their games naturally incoherent (as D&D certainly is).

Quote from: The Ent;724209(I've come to consider Pundit the kinda guy that definitely grows on you.)

Like genital warts?

Er, um, not that I'd know or anything...

Quote from: 3rik;724205While I've no experience interacting on any of the Forge-related boards, the handful of Forge/Edwards cultists on a local game forum I used to moderate were more than just "a bit" elitist about their faith, hehe. The pseudo-intellectual smugness is actually what I found the most off-putting about the whole thing.

I agree wholeheartedly.  It's the smug elitist pseudo-intellectualism that, more than anything else, convinces me the Forge is just a heaping mound of bullshit.  I've seen that tactic used far too many times by my acedemia friends.  They always use it when they doubt the truth of their theory, as a defensive crutch to try and ward off genuine criticism.

Quote from: Mistwell;724251I agree wholeheartedly.  It's the smug elitist pseudo-intellectualism that, more than anything else, convinces me the Forge is just a heaping mound of bullshit.  I've seen that tactic used far too many times by my acedemia friends.  They always use it when they doubt the truth of their theory, as a defensive crutch to try and ward off genuine criticism.

eh...as someone who hasn't followed them closely, they just remind me of the RPG version of hipsters.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;724260eh...as someone who hasn't followed them closely, they just remind me of the RPG version of hipsters.

I have at times referred to Forge-y-ish games as "hipster games" to avoid having to decide if they're a storygame or not. Unfortunately, at the time, at least where I am, the whole hipster label wasn't all that common yet. Would have been practical.

The Forge is what happens when academics try bottling lightning while wearing eel gloves.

Quote from: One Horse Town;724267The Forge is what happens when academics try bottling lightning while wearing eel gloves.

I thought it was what happens when dumbasses try to use academic-sounding terms to justify thier dumbassery under a smokescreen of pseudo-intellectualism

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;724186As OHT said, the machine kills fascists is the moderator tag. If it has any meaning beyond Pundit's love of Woody Guthrie, I don't know. but i see it more as reminder to not be fascists ourselves as mods and in reference to our mod policies (which are pretty light).

I think you will find many of the posters here are not enamored with the forge.

I also got the impression that at least some of the posters here - including the OP of this thread - are not enamoured of Guthries very left politics.

Quote from: pemerton;724369I also got the impression that at least some of the posters here - including the OP of this thread - are not enamoured of Guthries very left politics.

If you're wondering whether this is a haven for right wing reactionaries, never fear, there's a healthy mix of posters here and we have the occasional energetic discussion on the matter. Myself I find both points of view ignorant, and likewise have had energetic discussions with the Pundit on the matter.

The thing I admire and respect most about theRPGSite and am coming to appreciate more and more is the willingness to let people speak their minds and not get kicked out for having an opinion. This is the only ironclad rule around here that I've observed.

That doesn't mean that discussions don't get energetic, in case you missed it.