Quote from: Greentongue;723040What about the player that picks a character that stands out like "Andre the Giant" or a Scandinavian blond in China? Should the game conform to them or should the GM not allow them to play a character they want?  How often does this also kill "fun"?

Well, look.  Your premise here is that people are strangers.  If, for instance, you've got a boatload of ex-Varangians, they're sticking out like sore thumbs already.  

If, by "conform to them," you mean "the world interacts with them the way the world would interact to them," then sure.  Especially if the locale is ethnically homogenous, you'll get children who point, scream "What's THAT??" and run like the clappers ... braver children who'll want to touch the barbarian's hair to make sure it's real ... superstitious types who are sure they're examples of the culture's take on 'boogie men' or goblins ... and guardsmen who treat them as barely-in-control monsters.

Quote from: Ravenswing;723113Well, look.  Your premise here is that people are strangers.  If, for instance, you've got a boatload of ex-Varangians, they're sticking out like sore thumbs already.  

If, by "conform to them," you mean "the world interacts with them the way the world would interact to them," then sure.  Especially if the locale is ethnically homogenous, you'll get children who point, scream "What's THAT??" and run like the clappers ... braver children who'll want to touch the barbarian's hair to make sure it's real ... superstitious types who are sure they're examples of the culture's take on 'boogie men' or goblins ... and guardsmen who treat them as barely-in-control monsters.

Yes but ... unless the game is intended to focus on how the world reacts to them, how long before this becomes annoying?
My vision is that this is a handicap that will not go away over time except in a very limited way. That is unless the game is bent to confirm to their character selection. So again, it is reasonable?
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I don't have a problem with outlandish settings, and I don't meet a lot of players who do. The trick is to make it approachable as you run the thing, and that's something that you do one step at a time, rather than throwing a 50-page treaty on the cultures and religions of the setting right off the bat.

But then again, I'm okay with vanilla settings as well, I love both, and don't really understand why some gamers would like only one and not the other. Variety is the spice of life.

Show don't tell.  

You could explain that people in this town bow to each other rather than shaking hands, but you could also have the shopkeeper greet them by bowing.  

You could explain that people in this town never eat the last bit of food from their plate because it is considered rude, or you could have the shopkeeper stare at the empty plate in shock and then heap another serving while blushing deeply.  

When the customs are things that the PCs experience directly, it actually adds flavor.  When it is just something you talk about, it gets boring quickly.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;723158Show don't tell.  

You could explain that people in this town bow to each other rather than shaking hands, but you could also have the shopkeeper greet them by bowing.  

You could explain that people in this town never eat the last bit of food from their plate because it is considered rude, or you could have the shopkeeper stare at the empty plate in shock and then heap another serving while blushing deeply.  

When the customs are things that the PCs experience directly, it actually adds flavor.  When it is just something you talk about, it gets boring quickly.

This is spot on. If the PCs are strangers in a strange land let them experience the world through the eyes of thier characters. After a suitable exposure to the weirdness of it all, the PCs will want to seek out information about the local culture just to be at much less of a disadvantage.

You're assuming that in the "Swede in China" scenario that Fantasy-China is one of those places where strangers are singled out and made the centre of attention. In my travels, some cultures are like this but IME these are places with lots of tourists and lots of locals trying to sell crap. Other cultures don't make a big fuss to foreigners (it's impolite) or actively ignore them. At most you get gawked at by people across the street.  

When players enter a new region, I usually just make a few quick and broad descriptions of what they see, hear, and smell. That's it. Further information is either given when players ask questions, or when they interact with something or someone. That way the players get to know what they want to or need to know instead of listening to the unabridged historical account of the fall of the 14th republic and then trying to pick out something useful.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;723158Show don't tell.  

You could explain that people in this town bow to each other rather than shaking hands, but you could also have the shopkeeper greet them by bowing.  

You could explain that people in this town never eat the last bit of food from their plate because it is considered rude, or you could have the shopkeeper stare at the empty plate in shock and then heap another serving while blushing deeply.  

When the customs are things that the PCs experience directly, it actually adds flavor.  When it is just something you talk about, it gets boring quickly.

Excellent advice. Do that.

Quote from: languagegeek;723218You're assuming that in the "Swede in China" scenario that Fantasy-China is one of those places where strangers are singled out and made the centre of attention. In my travels, some cultures are like this but IME these are places with lots of tourists and lots of locals trying to sell crap. Other cultures don't make a big fuss to foreigners (it's impolite) or actively ignore them. At most you get gawked at by people across the street.  

No offence, but you live in an era where you can travel to any point of the globe in one day, as long as you have enough money, where you can talk to people from all around the world by typing a few words into your computer, and where you have access to the culture from all around the world at your fingertips. That behaviour is from an era where travelling to another city'd take you more time than travelling from one coast of US to another, or from one corner of EU to another.

Quote from: Rincewind1;723221No offence, but you live in an era...

Yep, I know when I live, no offence taken.

I was thinking along the lines of "You arrive in a port city..." This is going to be a fairly cosmopolitan place with lots of different kinds of people. Sure people are going to notice André the Giant, but they're far too streetwise to make a scene.

Even back in the day though, some cultures have streams of laughing kids following a stranger into town. Other cultures have the parents shooing the kids indoors away from the strangers. Other cultures like Sentinal Island will actively attack anything non-Sentinal. If the GM lets the player be a sore thumb, there's no reason why there can't be a variety of reactions by the locals.

Quote from: languagegeek;723218You're assuming that in the "Swede in China" scenario that Fantasy-China is one of those places where strangers are singled out and made the centre of attention. In my travels, some cultures are like this but IME these are places with lots of tourists and lots of locals trying to sell crap. Other cultures don't make a big fuss to foreigners (it's impolite) or actively ignore them. At most you get gawked at by people across the street.  

There are all kinds.

If a local culture is accustomed to lots of visitors from other countries then you are more likely to have the experience you described - they have no fear of foreigners and see them as inexperienced rubes. Like coming across the US border and visiting Tijuana, or conversely, visiting any of the largest western cities in the world. Now how the local culture looks at inexperienced rubes will say what kind of reception they get.

On the other hand, if its a local area with few outsider visitors, you'll have any number of responses based on the assumption that you are alien. That could be a tiny town in the US (where there's no cell phone service or even highway access, but really good banjo players), or a smaller city in Asia someplace.

You'll also find reception different depending on if you are just passing through or settling in.

Quote from: languagegeek;723231Yep, I know when I live, no offence taken.

I was thinking along the lines of "You arrive in a port city..." This is going to be a fairly cosmopolitan place with lots of different kinds of people. Sure people are going to notice André the Giant, but they're far too streetwise to make a scene.

Even back in the day though, some cultures have streams of laughing kids following a stranger into town. Other cultures have the parents shooing the kids indoors away from the strangers. Other cultures like Sentinal Island will actively attack anything non-Sentinal. If the GM lets the player be a sore thumb, there's no reason why there can't be a variety of reactions by the locals.

For a given definition of a stranger - people'd act as if someone from a different kingdom was an alien rather than a stranger, at times .

But true, this also depends on a city - in a big merchant hub, people will be more used to people from other cultures. Though then again they still may remain suspicious of them - London had a lot of cultural ghettos back in the days of being the capital of an empire where sun never set, as did many other such important trade cities. People mingled on the streets, but lived amongst their own. Of course, again, this depends what cultures generally accept each other. A pitchforked mob reaction however, or children running around someone (unless they really stick out) are indeed, unlikely in a mixed city.

Quote from: languagegeek;723231I was thinking along the lines of "You arrive in a port city..." This is going to be a fairly cosmopolitan place with lots of different kinds of people. Sure people are going to notice André the Giant, but they're far too streetwise to make a scene.

Maybe. During the Edo era, Dejima island and sometimes Nagasaki city were the only places foreigners were allowed to visit in Japan - officially. The rest of the country was off limits.

Or a fantasy example - a very large port city populated by elves, dwarves, halflings and 5' tall Asian humans.

And then off a boat steps a 7' tall black man.

A large city - even a port city - can be racially and culturally homogenous. It can also be extremely non-sympathetic to differences, or have rules and laws that are extremely restrictive.

Quote from: Greentongue;723137Yes but ... unless the game is intended to focus on how the world reacts to them, how long before this becomes annoying? My vision is that this is a handicap that will not go away over time except in a very limited way. That is unless the game is bent to confirm to their character selection. So again, it is reasonable?

Absolutely.

I am firmly in favor of people getting to play what they want, whether or not that archetype fits into the milieu or not, as long as they're aware of the consequences of their action.  Indeed, someone who is visually outlandish to the culture will never, ever have the monkey off his back (unless the culture is unusually accepting of the outlandish and strange) ... speak however she wants, dress however she pleases, a free black woman in antebellum Georgia will always be a third-class citizen, one that others can be as rude as they please to with complete impunity.

If a player accepts that, then all is well.  If he or she can't, then I'm happy to set up a time when a new newbie character can be created.

Quote from: languagegeek;723231I was thinking along the lines of "You arrive in a port city..." This is going to be a fairly cosmopolitan place with lots of different kinds of people. Sure people are going to notice André the Giant, but they're far too streetwise to make a scene.

This is a good point. Any port city worthy of the terms "port", "city", and "port city" is going to have enough visitors from distant regions that yet another pack of foreigners aren't going to stand out - unless, of course, they behave in a way which draws attention.

A lot of good points.

Starting in a large port city makes even more sense as these points are brought up. Starting in some small town in the heartland would be far more difficult on everyone involved. If they were assumed to be natives, they would need a lot of background force fed to them. As a foreigner, I expect they would have to deal with stronger intolerances.  

What about things that are common in ancient setting such as slavery? Instead of being killed in a lost fight or allowed to starve to death, their cheap labor is used to keep the economy functioning.
(Also providing a way for players to totally lose but not be killed and possibly escape or work to freedom.)

Like explained here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/woszholi01n1mf3/A%20Legendary%20Economy.pdf

What can you not accept as a part of a setting? Are all modern sensibilities required to be catered to? Are there historic custom on Earth that should never be in a game?
(Not including things just to shock players but, just what historically was the way things were.)
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Quote from: Greentongue;723286What can you not accept as a part of a setting? Are all modern sensibilities required to be catered to? Are there historic custom on Earth that should never be in a game? (Not including things just to shock players but, just what historically was the way things were.)

As a blanket thing?  No, I see no need to cater to "modern sensibilities."

But individual ones, yes.  A dear friend of my wife's hung himself, and in rather spectacular fashion ... so I heavily downplay hanging as an execution method.  Far too many women I've known have been raped, and a dear friend of mine killed herself after she was gangraped ... so that's a trope I almost never touch.