If this was not a fantasy world it would remind you of Bombay, India back in 1,000 AD.
Hot, crowded and colorful.
As a player, how strange of customs and laws can you handle before it is not fun?
At what point is new and different just too much trouble to deal with?
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I personally like colorful, well-detailed settings, sights, and sounds, but have been saddled for many years with a group that just wants to know the AC of the opponent and how many XP they get after they are dispatched. Ah well...
When fantasy script goes from being a prop to being a gatekeeper. A note written in Klingon with translation at bottom, or a word here or there in context, is fine. When the rest of the table speaks and reads Klingon -- and you don't, nor want to learn -- then it is time to dial it back. Similarly with societal mores and jargon as gatekeepers is where I draw the line.
I sell the boat and buy myself a bit of food and lend a place to cook it on the streets, and start selling said food at twice - thrice the price of components.
As long as you'd be more or less well prepared with those laws (and don't expect me to read the whole 100 pages long worldbook ;)) I'm cool.
If you find yourself going on a monologue as the DM, then you have gone off the deep end. If your players are confused and cannot relate to the setting, you have gone off the deep end.
I've had a lot of fun with
Empire of the Petal Throne, and the basic premise of so much of A. Merritt and Edgar Rice Burroughs (and Howard's "Red Nails," Leiber's "The Lords of Quarmall," etc.) strikes me as virtually the essence of the "dungeon game."
QuoteAt what point is new and different just too much trouble to deal with?
The same whether it's in milieu or in rules: when it bogs down the pace of players making interesting decisions.
Quote from: Phillip;722951I've had a lot of fun with Empire of the Petal Throne, and the basic premise of so much of A. Merritt and Edgar Rice Burroughs (and Howard's "Red Nails," Leiber's "The Lords of Quarmall," etc.) strikes me as virtually the essence of the "dungeon game."
The same whether it's in milieu or in rules: when it bogs down the pace of players making interesting decisions.
I'd say, more specifically, when there are so many unknown factors that the players have no rational basis for decision-making, you need to lay off the exoticism.
I am fine with these sorts of starts. It sets things up neat and easy. Used that for the start of Omega World and just handed the players out a "Things you know about the town and the area" writeup and let them remember or not any of that if they so desired. Visitors from other towns got different info.
Bring it on! I can handle quite a bit of exotic. Now normally I'd be fishing for handouts, but the premise is that I'm a stranger in a strange land, yes?
I don't at all mind playing the clueless outsider entering an exotic, different place in wich he has to learn a very different set of rules (or possibly just break them in entertaining ways...). If anything that's my standard character, right there.
Also it's easier than playing a native, cause in the latter case your PC presumably knows all the rules, customs etc, wich means you, the player, will need to read up on a bunch of GM stuff. Wich is a downer for some people. But happily not for all - having at least one PC not be a clueless outsider is generally a good thing after all!
What my PC would do? He'd go looking for work, presumably.
Quote from: Greentongue;722918As a player, how strange of customs and laws can you handle before it is not fun?
At what point is new and different just too much trouble to deal with?
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I would say that the breaking point is "too strange to for the PCs to muddle through via trial and error".
If the campaign premise is explicitly "strangers trying to make it in a sophisticated culture they're deeply unfamiliar with", I'd find it entirely appropriate to have characters occasionally stumble and make mistakes out of ignorance early on, provided that that generates interesting consequences and adventures (and if the GM or setting designer has done their job right it usually will). If a dozen sessions down the line we're still goofing just as regularly as we did when we got off the boat, then there's a problem.
I'd say in general with these things the most important thing to do is avoid unsolicited monologuing. Don't give the players lectures on local laws on customs - let them work them out themselves through observation and through experience. In general I find players mind monologues a little less when it comes through research or investigation they've personally done, because it makes them feel like they lucked out and hit the motherload on their investigation. And in general, only mention interesting customs and laws as and when they become relevant, and keep in mind how much the characters already know. Early on, for instance, PCs should regularly not be aware of a taboo unless they already broke it (or unless they were sharp-eyed enough to suss out that a particular subject is avoided by the locals). Once they've lived in the culture for a while, then it starts becoming more appropriate to say to players "OK, since you're now familiar with the ways of the Tsolyani (or whoever) you'll be aware that that would be kind of a taboo thing to do - you're sure you're go ahead with it?", unless the custom or law is a particularly obscure one.
New and different is cool, but IC new and different should become comfortable and familiar if the PCs live within the culture in question for long enough.
If the culture is just something in a pseudo-historical-European world with all the names changed, then superficial learning requirements are annoying. I mean, your Fiord-Barbarian thunder god Mjödegarr? The players are just going to call him Thor anyway, so just call him Thor to start with.
If the culture is something truly original, then I'm totally in for a bit of work learning the world you've created.
So, I gather that unsolicited monologuing is poison to a good game.
What about the player that picks a character that stands out like "Andre the Giant" or a Scandinavian blond in China? Should the game conform to them or should the GM not allow them to play a character they want?
How often does this also kill "fun"?
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That's a roleplaying thing. The locals will see this guy as either someone to be avoided because he's dangerous, or someone they can easily overcharge or steal from because he's ignorant.
Yeah, gotta say that choosing between the game conforming to the odd-man-out and the GM refusing to let the player play that character leaves out a huge excluded middle there. Unless people from the sort of culture the player wants their character to hail from really don't exist in this world, then let 'em go ahead with it but apply the usual pitfalls of wandering into a town where you don't know the local customs, at least at first (or until they find a local guide).
Incidentally, this is a nice solution when some players are really keen to study the stuff you've prepared on this exotic culture and others don't have the time or inclination to do it: have the players who want to do their research play locals who can show the ignorant bumpkin PCs around.
Quote from: Greentongue;723040What about the player that picks a character that stands out like "Andre the Giant" or a Scandinavian blond in China? Should the game conform to them or should the GM not allow them to play a character they want? How often does this also kill "fun"?
Well, look. Your premise here is that people
are strangers. If, for instance, you've got a boatload of ex-Varangians, they're sticking out like sore thumbs already.
If, by "conform to them," you mean "the world interacts with them the way the world would interact to them," then sure. Especially if the locale is ethnically homogenous, you'll get children who point, scream "What's THAT??" and run like the clappers ... braver children who'll want to touch the barbarian's hair to make sure it's real ... superstitious types who are sure they're examples of the culture's take on 'boogie men' or goblins ... and guardsmen who treat them as barely-in-control monsters.
Quote from: Ravenswing;723113Well, look. Your premise here is that people are strangers. If, for instance, you've got a boatload of ex-Varangians, they're sticking out like sore thumbs already.
If, by "conform to them," you mean "the world interacts with them the way the world would interact to them," then sure. Especially if the locale is ethnically homogenous, you'll get children who point, scream "What's THAT??" and run like the clappers ... braver children who'll want to touch the barbarian's hair to make sure it's real ... superstitious types who are sure they're examples of the culture's take on 'boogie men' or goblins ... and guardsmen who treat them as barely-in-control monsters.
Yes but ... unless the game is intended to focus on how the world reacts to them, how long before this becomes annoying?
My vision is that this is a handicap that will not go away over time except in a very limited way. That is unless the game is bent to confirm to their character selection. So again, it is reasonable?
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I don't have a problem with outlandish settings, and I don't meet a lot of players who do. The trick is to make it approachable as you run the thing, and that's something that you do one step at a time, rather than throwing a 50-page treaty on the cultures and religions of the setting right off the bat.
But then again, I'm okay with vanilla settings as well, I love both, and don't really understand why some gamers would like only one and not the other. Variety is the spice of life.
Show don't tell.
You could explain that people in this town bow to each other rather than shaking hands, but you could also have the shopkeeper greet them by bowing.
You could explain that people in this town never eat the last bit of food from their plate because it is considered rude, or you could have the shopkeeper stare at the empty plate in shock and then heap another serving while blushing deeply.
When the customs are things that the PCs experience directly, it actually adds flavor. When it is just something you talk about, it gets boring quickly.
Quote from: deadDMwalking;723158Show don't tell.
You could explain that people in this town bow to each other rather than shaking hands, but you could also have the shopkeeper greet them by bowing.
You could explain that people in this town never eat the last bit of food from their plate because it is considered rude, or you could have the shopkeeper stare at the empty plate in shock and then heap another serving while blushing deeply.
When the customs are things that the PCs experience directly, it actually adds flavor. When it is just something you talk about, it gets boring quickly.
This is spot on. If the PCs are strangers in a strange land let them experience the world through the eyes of thier characters. After a suitable exposure to the weirdness of it all, the PCs will want to seek out information about the local culture just to be at much less of a disadvantage.
You're assuming that in the "Swede in China" scenario that Fantasy-China is one of those places where strangers are singled out and made the centre of attention. In my travels, some cultures are like this but IME these are places with lots of tourists and lots of locals trying to sell crap. Other cultures don't make a big fuss to foreigners (it's impolite) or actively ignore them. At most you get gawked at by people across the street.
When players enter a new region, I usually just make a few quick and broad descriptions of what they see, hear, and smell. That's it. Further information is either given when players ask questions, or when they interact with something or someone. That way the players get to know what they want to or need to know instead of listening to the unabridged historical account of the fall of the 14th republic and then trying to pick out something useful.
Quote from: deadDMwalking;723158Show don't tell.
You could explain that people in this town bow to each other rather than shaking hands, but you could also have the shopkeeper greet them by bowing.
You could explain that people in this town never eat the last bit of food from their plate because it is considered rude, or you could have the shopkeeper stare at the empty plate in shock and then heap another serving while blushing deeply.
When the customs are things that the PCs experience directly, it actually adds flavor. When it is just something you talk about, it gets boring quickly.
Excellent advice. Do that.
Quote from: languagegeek;723218You're assuming that in the "Swede in China" scenario that Fantasy-China is one of those places where strangers are singled out and made the centre of attention. In my travels, some cultures are like this but IME these are places with lots of tourists and lots of locals trying to sell crap. Other cultures don't make a big fuss to foreigners (it's impolite) or actively ignore them. At most you get gawked at by people across the street.
No offence, but you live in an era where you can travel to any point of the globe in one day, as long as you have enough money, where you can talk to people from all around the world by typing a few words into your computer, and where you have access to the culture from all around the world at your fingertips. That behaviour is from an era where travelling to another city'd take you more time than travelling from one coast of US to another, or from one corner of EU to another.
Quote from: Rincewind1;723221No offence, but you live in an era...
Yep, I know when I live, no offence taken.
I was thinking along the lines of "You arrive in a port city..." This is going to be a fairly cosmopolitan place with lots of different kinds of people. Sure people are going to notice André the Giant, but they're far too streetwise to make a scene.
Even back in the day though, some cultures have streams of laughing kids following a stranger into town. Other cultures have the parents shooing the kids indoors away from the strangers. Other cultures like Sentinal Island will actively attack anything non-Sentinal. If the GM lets the player be a sore thumb, there's no reason why there can't be a variety of reactions by the locals.
Quote from: languagegeek;723218You're assuming that in the "Swede in China" scenario that Fantasy-China is one of those places where strangers are singled out and made the centre of attention. In my travels, some cultures are like this but IME these are places with lots of tourists and lots of locals trying to sell crap. Other cultures don't make a big fuss to foreigners (it's impolite) or actively ignore them. At most you get gawked at by people across the street.
There are all kinds.
If a local culture is accustomed to lots of visitors from other countries then you are more likely to have the experience you described - they have no fear of foreigners and see them as inexperienced rubes. Like coming across the US border and visiting Tijuana, or conversely, visiting any of the largest western cities in the world. Now how the local culture looks at inexperienced rubes will say what kind of reception they get.
On the other hand, if its a local area with few outsider visitors, you'll have any number of responses based on the assumption that you are alien. That could be a tiny town in the US (where there's no cell phone service or even highway access, but really good banjo players), or a smaller city in Asia someplace.
You'll also find reception different depending on if you are just passing through or settling in.
Quote from: languagegeek;723231Yep, I know when I live, no offence taken.
I was thinking along the lines of "You arrive in a port city..." This is going to be a fairly cosmopolitan place with lots of different kinds of people. Sure people are going to notice André the Giant, but they're far too streetwise to make a scene.
Even back in the day though, some cultures have streams of laughing kids following a stranger into town. Other cultures have the parents shooing the kids indoors away from the strangers. Other cultures like Sentinal Island will actively attack anything non-Sentinal. If the GM lets the player be a sore thumb, there's no reason why there can't be a variety of reactions by the locals.
For a given definition of a stranger - people'd act as if someone from a different kingdom was an alien rather than a stranger, at times ;).
But true, this also depends on a city - in a big merchant hub, people will be more used to people from other cultures. Though then again they still may remain suspicious of them - London had a lot of cultural ghettos back in the days of being the capital of an empire where sun never set, as did many other such important trade cities. People mingled on the streets, but lived amongst their own. Of course, again, this depends what cultures generally accept each other. A pitchforked mob reaction however, or children running around someone (unless they really stick out) are indeed, unlikely in a mixed city.
Quote from: languagegeek;723231I was thinking along the lines of "You arrive in a port city..." This is going to be a fairly cosmopolitan place with lots of different kinds of people. Sure people are going to notice André the Giant, but they're far too streetwise to make a scene.
Maybe. During the Edo era, Dejima island and sometimes Nagasaki city were the only places foreigners were allowed to visit in Japan - officially. The rest of the country was off limits.
Or a fantasy example - a very large port city populated by elves, dwarves, halflings and 5' tall Asian humans.
And then off a boat steps a 7' tall black man.
A large city - even a port city - can be racially and culturally homogenous. It can also be extremely non-sympathetic to differences, or have rules and laws that are extremely restrictive.
Quote from: Greentongue;723137Yes but ... unless the game is intended to focus on how the world reacts to them, how long before this becomes annoying? My vision is that this is a handicap that will not go away over time except in a very limited way. That is unless the game is bent to confirm to their character selection. So again, it is reasonable?
Absolutely.
I am firmly in favor of people getting to play what they want, whether or not that archetype fits into the milieu or not, as long as they're aware of the
consequences of their action. Indeed, someone who is visually outlandish to the culture will never, ever have the monkey off his back (unless the culture is unusually accepting of the outlandish and strange) ... speak however she wants, dress however she pleases, a free black woman in antebellum Georgia will always be a third-class citizen, one that others can be as rude as they please to with complete impunity.
If a player accepts that, then all is well. If he or she can't, then I'm happy to set up a time when a new newbie character can be created.
Quote from: languagegeek;723231I was thinking along the lines of "You arrive in a port city..." This is going to be a fairly cosmopolitan place with lots of different kinds of people. Sure people are going to notice André the Giant, but they're far too streetwise to make a scene.
This is a good point. Any port city worthy of the terms "port", "city", and "port city" is going to have enough visitors from distant regions that yet another pack of foreigners aren't going to stand out - unless, of course, they behave in a way which draws attention.
A lot of good points.
Starting in a large port city makes even more sense as these points are brought up. Starting in some small town in the heartland would be far more difficult on everyone involved. If they were assumed to be natives, they would need a lot of background force fed to them. As a foreigner, I expect they would have to deal with stronger intolerances.
What about things that are common in ancient setting such as slavery? Instead of being killed in a lost fight or allowed to starve to death, their cheap labor is used to keep the economy functioning.
(Also providing a way for players to totally lose but not be killed and possibly escape or work to freedom.)
Like explained here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/woszholi01n1mf3/A%20Legendary%20Economy.pdf
What can you not accept as a part of a setting? Are all modern sensibilities required to be catered to? Are there historic custom on Earth that should never be in a game?
(Not including things just to shock players but, just what historically was the way things were.)
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Quote from: Greentongue;723286What can you not accept as a part of a setting? Are all modern sensibilities required to be catered to? Are there historic custom on Earth that should never be in a game? (Not including things just to shock players but, just what historically was the way things were.)
As a blanket thing? No, I see no need to cater to "modern sensibilities."
But individual ones, yes. A dear friend of my wife's hung himself, and in rather spectacular fashion ... so I heavily downplay hanging as an execution method. Far too many women I've known have been raped, and a dear friend of
mine killed herself after she was gangraped ... so that's a trope I almost never touch.
Wouldn't this type of start be good for most any game. Little or no prior knowledge needed by the player.
Not just for Legend of the Five Rings or Empire of the Petal Throne but even Greyhawk type settings.
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Quote from: Greentongue;723474Wouldn't this type of start be good for most any game. Little or no prior knowledge needed by the player.
Not just for Legend of the Five Rings or Empire of the Petal Throne but even Greyhawk type settings.
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/agreed.
having lived all over the world - I LOVE this kind of stuff. Likewise I love doing this to my players - but it takes a good GM to pull it off without getting lame. I find most GM's can't really do it justice especially in their home-brews because there's always the nettling details they hadn't thought of.
Quote from: Greentongue;722918If this was not a fantasy world it would remind you of Bombay, India back in 1,000 AD.
Hot, crowded and colorful.
As a player, how strange of customs and laws can you handle before it is not fun?
At what point is new and different just too much trouble to deal with?
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Any game that all but requires that players play characters from OTHER SETTINGS and just bring them over on a boat, because there's no way in hell they'll understand how to play characters from the locale itself, is too much trouble to deal with.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;725130Any game that all but requires that players play characters from OTHER SETTINGS and just bring them over on a boat, because there's no way in hell they'll understand how to play characters from the locale itself, is too much trouble to deal with.
RPGPundit
But what a terrific opportunity that would be for picking up a copy of Arrows of Indra and having your players step off the boat into the lands of "Ancient Indra" instead of just putting some Samurai off the map somewhere and rehashing the whole Kara Tur experience. Alien cultures can definitely be part of the experience.
Quote from: RPGPundit;725130Any game that all but requires that players play characters from OTHER SETTINGS and just bring them over on a boat, because there's no way in hell they'll understand how to play characters from the locale itself, is too much trouble to deal with.
Heck, it's the fundamental
premise of a lot of games, going all the way back to
Empire of the Petal Throne.
Quote from: Greentongue;723474Wouldn't this type of start be good for most any game. Little or no prior knowledge needed by the player.
For the players, yes. But for the DM, that's another story. The setup from Empire of the Petal Throne, for example, has the players as barbarians dumped off in Jakalla. For the DM to accurately describe this, he not only has to know Jakallan culture but also barbarian culture in order to point out differences. If, for example, the barbarians bow instead of shake hands, then it won't be a surprise if Jakallans do likewise.
A better setup for introducing people to a complicated setting such as Tekumel or Glorantha, would be to start in a much more mundane area, such as the barbarian homeland, and gradually introduce more complicated setting material. That way both the DM and players can learn a decide what parts they like or dislike. The EPT setup is the primary reason I would never attempt to run a Tekumel game.
I prefer to set the mood of a new campaign in a more mundane situation, rural usually. This allows the players to get a feel for their character, before introducing the more complex and bizarre setting elements. Much like how Tolkien focus on the ordinary aspects of hobbit life first.
Quote from: hedgehobbit;725288A better setup for introducing people to a complicated setting such as Tekumel or Glorantha, would be to start in a much more mundane area, such as the barbarian homeland, and gradually introduce more complicated setting material. That way both the DM and players can learn a decide what parts they like or dislike. The EPT setup is the primary reason I would never attempt to run a Tekumel game.
Doesn't that assume you are going to run the game as an anthropological simulation?
If on the other hand you are going for a "Planetary Romp" is this level of detail even wanted?
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I agree it's a lot more work. BUT!!! Isn't that the hallmark of good GM's?
When a GM wants to introduce you to a new world/culture etc. - and is really into it, and has some good GM-chops, those... THOSE are the great campaigns.
I own every Forgotten Realms book, boxset, including all the stuff from Al-Qadim, Maztica, Kara-Tur, Spelljammer, 1ed through 3.5. My players were predominantly Americans with little experience outside of of traditional western culture - but I made them agents for Aurora's Trading Emporium - which allowed me to send them to far reaches of the world of Toril. Campaign lasted almost 9-years.
Sure they were fish out of water. But I lived in Asia for many years - so introducing them to the analogs of Phillippines in Kara-tur was easy, and fun. For them it was exotic and alien - just like it would be for any American to suddenly find themselves there (Especially being a party of renegade Drow who weren't immediately KOS with everyone).
Their characters ended up spending like 6-years in game living amongs the islands of Malatra, and eventually Kozakura and Wa. All the while between sessions I'd feed the players movies to watch, articles to read. When in Kozakura I'd bring over my tea-set and have Ocha prepared. Props that were all real (I'm part filipino and Japanese and lived in both places -among others). So it was awesome to introduce a bunch of Euro-Americans to a culture that was foreign to them. And yes it's a lot of work. But I feel as a GM if you're passionate about your world - even if you didn't create it - that little bit of extra effort goes an awful long way.
If it weren't for the seriously epic trek back to the Faerun - ON FOOT - through Shou Lung, Tabot, the Hordelands - on a real time 9-year hexcrawl I don't think I would have ever sold them on Talislanta later... Or half the other RPG's I've brought to the table.
There *are* some nice effects to this kind of gaming. Just gotta put a *little* bit of extra effort into it.
Quote from: tenbones;725313There *are* some nice effects to this kind of gaming. Just gotta put a *little* bit of extra effort into it.
Yup. I do a private run where the PC is spending a year living with an analog to a Romany
kumpania. I won't say she gets startled by the cultural dissimilarities -- she's been friendly with the Rom for a long, long time, and she tries hard to assimilate -- but a lot of them still just don't sit well.
Quote from: Ravenswing;725437Yup. I do a private run where the PC is spending a year living with an analog to a Romany kumpania.
Interesting...
Didactically edited information on Roma (http://romani.uni-graz.at/rombase/)
Even within the Europe we think we know, are things that are not common knowledge.
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Quote from: Panzerkraken;725184But what a terrific opportunity that would be for picking up a copy of Arrows of Indra and having your players step off the boat into the lands of "Ancient Indra" instead of just putting some Samurai off the map somewhere and rehashing the whole Kara Tur experience. Alien cultures can definitely be part of the experience.
Its one thing if you do this because you WANT to incorporate the Bharata Kingdoms into your existing campaign, moving your longstanding Greyhawk characters as travellers to a distant land. That's fine, that can be cool for sure.
But its another thing if as a GM you pretty much feel you MUST do this even with a fresh campaign, because the only alternative is teaching all the players a 16-hour course on setting anthropology and linguistics.
I specifically designed Indra so that it wouldn't be like that, by the way. You should have no problem starting a fresh campaign with 'native' characters and have the players be able to engage with the setting and their pcs just fine.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundit;726248I specifically designed Indra so that it wouldn't be like that, by the way. You should have no problem starting a fresh campaign with 'native' characters and have the players be able to engage with the setting and their pcs just fine.
RPGPundit
How has that been working out in practice? Are you the only one that can run the game without a struggle? No problems finding players due to intimation when they see what the setting is?
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Not trying to be "smart". If I didn't already have a game set in an exotic land that is hard to get people to try, I would really like to get Arrows of Indra.
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Quote from: Greentongue;726273How has that been working out in practice? Are you the only one that can run the game without a struggle? No problems finding players due to intimation when they see what the setting is?
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Well, I've had people run it at cons, people who are no relation to me and never even met me in person. I've had one person run it for a group that included teenagers, and had no problem with it. So I think in all honesty that its achieved that particular goal (of being easily playable) really well.
RPGPundit
Quote from: Greentongue;726432Not trying to be "smart". If I didn't already have a game set in an exotic land that is hard to get people to try, I would really like to get Arrows of Indra.
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I think what you should sell it as is that its really just old-school D&D in an interesting and more exotic setting. But the play is the same: you're a pc party, you go on adventures. You go to ruins, jungles, the underworld, adventure in cities against crime lords or undead who stalk the night, you get treasure and gain power and magic.
RPGPundit