Quote from: Old Geezer;707339Life is like a toilet, what you get out of it depends on what you put into it.

:confused:

Some observations.

Many MMO players indeed do not really care for RPGs. A portion are into killing other players. A portion are also into power levelling and min maxing to insane levels. And so they arent exactly the sorts you want in your RPG group unless you can wean them off that teat.

Some just really lack imagination and cant grasp an RPG. Course there are RPG players too who are that way so... well...

Others though do like to wander around and see the sights and actually RP in character or even RP fully within the game. Essentially turning the MMO into a LARP. Though I've seen one group who just stood around and used the MMO as a expensive chat room to play an RPG. More likely if there is an in-game dice roller. Some have them!

Some are playing MMOs and PC RPGs because they lack a viable local group.

SecondLife attracts lots of casual RPers and some straight up RPing too. Some more like sitting at the table. Others more like a LARP.

On the other hand I've seen MMO and CRPG players go wild when they discover just how free they are in a real RPG. Its like going from BW TV to Colour... whammo!

So there is overlap. Its just the problem of sorting the players out and getting the non-TTRPGers aware and informed of what a TTRPG is.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;707309the MMO and CRPG people know that TRPGs exist; they reject TRPGs because of what they are, not out of ignorance of them.

They DO know, and THEY DON'T WANT THEM.  You are wasting your time marketing to them.

Wonder if this was first discovered around a decade ago or so, when the Everquest and Warcraft d20 rpg books didn't really catch lighting in a bottle.

Quote from: flyerfan1991;707334Here's one way you know that the MMO demographic is different than TTRPGs:  Blizzard spends money on advertisements during sporting events, like NFL games.  When was the last time you saw WotC advertise D&D during an NFL playoff game?

Yes, definitely the other end of the Bell Curve from the people that started playing RPG's in the 70's...

Quote from: Omega;707345Others though do like to wander around and see the sights and actually RP in character or even RP fully within the game. Essentially turning the MMO into a LARP. Though I've seen one group who just stood around and used the MMO as a expensive chat room to play an RPG. More likely if there is an in-game dice roller. Some have them!

Some are playing MMOs and PC RPGs because they lack a viable local group.

SecondLife attracts lots of casual RPers and some straight up RPing too. Some more like sitting at the table. Others more like a LARP.

On the other hand I've seen MMO and CRPG players go wild when they discover just how free they are in a real RPG. Its like going from BW TV to Colour... whammo!

So there is overlap. Its just the problem of sorting the players out and getting the non-TTRPGers aware and informed of what a TTRPG is.

My own observations: The people who actually roleplay in MMOs are usually ones who came from either TTRPGs or forum RP anyway and actually already know what TTRPGs ARE.

Usually they also roleplay in MMOs because they like that aspect of a hobby they ARE already doing as well, OR they do it in MMOs because they can't find the people are time for a regular group, and would really much rather be doing it at the table.

This idea that there is this big untapped market in the MMO crowd that aren't aware of the tabletop roleplaying hobby and would be oh so into it if they JUST KNEW is a pipe dream from someone who has no experience in the demographic with no evidence backing it up. Most of them know what it is, they either just don't care or already play them.

To be honest, I don't play MMOs myself anyway, I found they took everything that was fun out of single player games, and added interacting with a bunch of asshole strangers, but I played them for quite a while before I quit. So I myself am not much of an MMO player anyway, but I am friends irl with quite a few of them.

Quote from: The Traveller;707200And of course all they ever do and ever will do for entertainment is play MMOs, because Bradford C. Walker says so. WoW - the daddy of MMOs - alone has dropped to half the numbers of its heyday, a grand total of three years ago.

If it seems like I'm making a mockery of you here, it's because I am, but I'll admit your argument is somewhat puzzling. You appear to be taking the idea of letting people know about the strengths of TTRPGs as an attack on CRPGs - why would you think so? People can after all play both.

The point being made is that the Tabletop Roleplaying is a more involved activity and has a smaller audience as result. That why there will a group of MMORPG (or any other group that spawned off of Tabletop) that Tabletop RPGs will not appeal too.

In the beginning, there was exactly one game that put the playing of a individual character in a game in the center spotlight and that was Dungeons & Dragons. Slightly later a entire hobby/industry grew focus on the gaming of a individual character.

Then over the years people starting developing other types of games that focused on the playing of individual gamers. As each one developed it pared off some of original mass audience of D&D. It wasn't just a passing of a fad. It was also the development of alternatives that were better suited for particular subgroups.

The one that stands out in my mind the most is the first person shooter. In the early and mid 80s, I seen a participated in several tournament and gathering that were little different than a multiplayer first person shooter session. Except using the AD&D 1st rules. I even won one of them and got a beautifully painted miniature out of it. Which I still have.

Since then I noticed particular types of players started disappearing from tabletop and then to reappear playing other type of games particularly various types of computer games.

This is neither good or bad. Just a natural result when new forms of entertainment are developed.

What it means for Tabletop Roleplaying is that it got to quit to focus on emulating the popular fad and play to its own strength. But it has to be also realistic in realizing that Tabletop RPGs are involved activity requiring a good referee and a group of people willing to meet at a particular time.

Your passion about the possibilities of Tabletop is commendable but you are not being realistic either about its ultimate appeal and needlessly attacking those who point it out.

My viewpoint is that Tabletop RPGs should focus on the strength of having a human referee, making it as easy as possible for a person to learn and maintain being a good referee, making it easy for gamers to get together and play tabletop RPGs either in person or online, and putting out the best work possible.

Beyond that it is at the whim of fate and the dice will roll what it rolls. The upside is that the ongoing revolution in computer and information technology means the amount of capital (both resources and time) to maintain the hobby and industry is considerably less. If Tabletop Roleplaying continue to collapse into a smaller niche it can be sustained for a long time until the whims of fashion focus their attention on it again.

Quote from: Emperor Norton;707375My own observations: The people who actually roleplay in MMOs are usually ones who came from either TTRPGs or forum RP anyway and actually already know what TTRPGs ARE.

My experience has been the opposite. I ask around when on a MMO and the usual answer when asked if the play any tabletop RPGs is... "whats that" or "how would you do that?" or "Isnt that the game where you roll dice and move little figures around." etc.

About 2 in 10 I've met were also RPG players. Maybee 5 in 10 had at least a baser idea what a TTRPG was. Sometimes a skewed.

If the MMO has an attendant forum then seems the instances of people at least knowing the basics of what an RPG is is somewhat higher.

MUDs on the other hand tended to be like 75% or more were either active or former RPGers.

Quote from: Omega;707378My experience has been the opposite. I ask around when on a MMO and the usual answer when asked if the play any tabletop RPGs is... "whats that" or "how would you do that?" or "Isnt that the game where you roll dice and move little figures around." etc.

About 2 in 10 I've met were also RPG players. Maybee 5 in 10 had at least a baser idea what a TTRPG was. Sometimes a skewed.

Yep.  The last time I played an MMO ('06) only a couple out of the 10-12 guys had played an RPG.  They had heard of them.  But, these were all younger people and had missed the RPG boat a couple decades earlier.

In the last decade of his life, Gary Gygax mentioned in at least a few interviews that he thought the Tabletop RPGs were "Broadway" while the single and multiplayer CRPGS were the equivalent of "Movies and Television".

This is an apt analogy.  Live Theater used to be the norm at one time, and there are elements you get in the live production that can't be reproduced by the new mediums, but the popularity waned as the other stuff did different things and became the popular entertainment.  It doesn't mean live theater died, but it has become less relevant to the mass market--live theater still exists but it's more of a special occasion or attended by die-hard enthusiasts.

Marketing alone doesn't change the appeal of something.  Part of marketing is finding out what people want--not just trying to get them to like your product.  One of the things I noticed about 3e D&D is that they actually tried to research how player's played instead of trusting their guts.  It was ironic that people predicted that players wanted more narrative oriented gaming--D&D 2e actually had a DMG section that said players shouldn't Min/Max, 3e encouraged people to make optimized builds.  Mike Stackpole wrote an article in Pyramid in 1999 "If I bought TSR" that said he expected more synergy between game worlds (fiction) and lines, and WoTC sort of went the opposite direction.  In short, based on this and after seeing the lack of true role-playing on MMORPGs, I've accepted that the majority of players have seen the experience in a more hack-n-slash, level up, loot and build optimization than the valued story--although single player games like Bioware and The Witcher and others have provided what people who like more story crave.  Based on this, I think CRPGs have sort of provided much of the core experience the players care about.

Are there things Tabletop RPGs can do that a CRPG can't.  Sure.  Abstract combat, improvisation, etc.  And there is a social element.

But does that make a difference?  Ironically, games like FATE I think are better at giving these experiences than stats heavy or old-school D&D games and their ilk, since stuff like Fate Points and building a truly customized character based on personality is harder for a CRPG to do--but that would be condemned by some people here.  

As far as the social element goes--remember that we have a different generation.  For some, the electronic medium is communication enough.  People chat on line in MMORPGs, they have G+ hangouts, etc.  You're assuming the RPG player wants the same sit-around-the-table experience you had--perhaps they don't want to.  People in a MUD for instance can immerse themselves in a role and ignore the OOC chatter.  Maybe they want their RPG socialization to be minimal and get their face-to-face social activity elsewhere.

The general point of all this is--part of marketing is finding out just want people want.  Assuming they want what you want is a common error people make.  What I see being advocated her is advocacy.  Advocacy can work, but it can also fail, and there's risk involved.  Advocacy is trying to change the culture, and that's very hard to do with just an advertising budget.  For whatever reason, comics aren't as respected in the US as they are in Europe or Japan, regardless of things like movie tie-ins.  The same goes for Tabletop RPGs, there's still a nerdy stigma in the face-to-face stuff that is ignored with the computer variants.

Do people honestly think a company as big as WoTC hasn't done enough research into this?  I'm sure they have, and they are probably doing what they can to keep their market going.  They can make mistakes, all companies do.  But I doubt there's a huge potential market that can be easily converted if only the right ad campaign was executed.

(Speaking in terms of hypotheticals).

Hypothetically, what would most of today's MMO players be doing, if they had grown up and/or came of age during the 1960's and 1970's ?

That is, besides arcade video games (or atari 2600, etc ...).


Would such individuals be playing D&D and wargames?

If not, what would such individuals be doing for geek/nerd type recreation?

Quote from: ggroy;707387(Speaking in terms of hypotheticals).

Hypothetically, what would most of today's MMO players be doing, if they had grown up and/or came of age during the 1960's and 1970's ?

Not sure as the ones (most anyway) I know are NOT the same type of people that were war gamers (later became RPG'ers) from the 60's-70's.  I think people tend to conflate the two groups as MMO's were inspired by real RPG's.

Quote from: Arduin;707389Not sure as the ones (most anyway) I know are NOT the same type of people that were war gamers (later became RPG'ers) from the 60's-70's.  I think people tend to conflate the two groups as MMO's were inspired by real RPG's.

It's really not an easy question to answer because of the various changes made.

Computer Games are easier to get into based on the changes that have been made over time--hardcore and older generation CRPGers complain about "dumbing down", but in many cases games have been made more accessible to the masses.   Perhaps more people are into CRPGs because of a low barrier of entry as opposed to higher barriers with tabletop games.

Culturally, "nerd culture" is acceptable now, or at worst tolerated a lot more than it was back then.  There was a lot more pressure to conform to standard society norms, which meant fewer people gravitated towards those hobbies.

Quote from: JRT;707386In the last decade of his life, Gary Gygax mentioned in at least a few interviews that he thought the Tabletop RPGs were "Broadway" while the single and multiplayer CRPGS were the equivalent of "Movies and Television".

This is an apt analogy.  Live Theater used to be the norm at one time, and there are elements you get in the live production that can't be reproduced by the new mediums, but the popularity waned as the other stuff did different things and became the popular entertainment.  It doesn't mean live theater died, but it has become less relevant to the mass market--live theater still exists but it's more of a special occasion or attended by die-hard enthusiasts.

I think this is an incredibly accurate analogy.

Quote from: estar;707376The point being made is that the Tabletop Roleplaying is a more involved activity and has a smaller audience as result.

The point being made, and the point that was predicted in this thread, is that MMO players will throw tantrums when this stuff surfaces, which is great news in terms of marketing coverage.

Imagine a thousand - no, ten thousand - Brads, jiggling cheeto bits with indignant wrath all over their keyboards, like a giant field of dry grass just waiting for the right spark. By their very repudiation they raise awareness.

Yes indeed, fertile territory. And pretty funny too.

Quote from: The Traveller;707427Yes indeed, fertile territory. And pretty funny too.

I think this is less a serious attempt to expand the audience of Tabletop RPGs than a way to justify acting superior to Computer RPGs.

Acting elitist is not the way to expand the audience.