I'd suggest prodding someone in the Marketing or media division. But I have zero contacts with most of WOTC staff anymore so no idea who that would be now.

Quote from: Glazer;707052I think the answer is that, bitter as the pill may be to swallow, crpgs and mmos offer most of what people are looking for in an rpg, in a more accessible and attractive package.

There ya go.

Look at the American consumer market in general.  CONVENIENCE SELLS, BIG time.

Quote from: Old Geezer;707128Look at the American consumer market in general.  CONVENIENCE SELLS, BIG time.

And why not, convenience is very convenient. However I've another truism for those who know the price of everything and the value of nothing - you get out of it what you put in.

Quote from: The Traveller;707135And why not, convenience is very convenient. However I've another truism for those who know the price of everything and the value of nothing - you get out of it what you put in.

That, incidentally, is one of the things that drives the dominance of CRPGs and MMORPGs over TRPGs.

This past weekend saw Blizzcon 2013 happen in Anaheim, California.  This two day marketing event disguised as a convention is when Blizzard makes most, if not all, of their big annoucements.  The big one was the next expansion for World of Warcraft, followed by their first DOTA-style game (Heroes of the Storm) and more information about the first Diablo 3 expansion: Reaper of Souls.

D3 and WOW are two of the most dominant not-TRPG brands out there, and enjoy far larger user networks than even all D&D editions combined.  One of those reasons is convenience; so long as the servers are up, and you've got a connection worth a damn, you can play.  The other reason, which ties into the argument that MMOs and CRPGs provide the experience that most RPG fans actually want, is a strong sense of character progression- and by that, "progression" means "ever-increasing power".  I can log into WOW and make daily progression on my guy; that I do so in a glorified themepark where I'm repeating content on a regular basis is not as much a downside as it seems- the developers are even institutionalizing long-standing player culture practices such as "speed runs" with explicit new modes ("Challenge Mode" for WOW, "Bounties" for D3).  I do not need to get a group together, make scheduling an issue, or otherwise fuck around with other people to get any of this done on my time or as I choose.

Let me make this explicit: the vast majority of RPG players DO NOT GIVE A FUCK about the strengths of the TRPG medium.  They want--crave--the stuff the CRPGs and MMOs offer, and chase after it like crazed crack addicts as shown by their actions and their spending.  You have to target entirely different demographics to successfully leverage the TRPG medium's strengths in a marketing campaign.  Going after the CRPG and MMO segments is for suckers.

And this is why I think RPGs will always be a niche hobby. The fad of the 80s can't be recreated in an environment where so many casual gamers get exactly what they want from videogames, whereas the small group of people who get off on using thier intelligence and creativity will always, in my estimation, only be a tiny fraction of any population.

That said, Ive never lived anywhere I wasn't able to find or create a solid game group of 3-4 players. And Id say I introduce an average of 3 people a year to gaming. 1 out of 3 probably stick with it when I move.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;707154Let me make this explicit: the vast majority of RPG players DO NOT GIVE A FUCK about the strengths of the TRPG medium.

Well, that's certainly your version of the home truth. Here, let me try:

the vast majority of RPG players DO NOT HAVE A FUCKING CLUE about the strengths of the TRPG medium, so why not make them aware of the fun they're missing.

Because bold is truthier.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;707154They want--crave--the stuff the CRPGs and MMOs offer, and chase after it like crazed crack addicts as shown by their actions and their spending.  You have to target entirely different demographics to successfully leverage the TRPG medium's strengths in a marketing campaign.  Going after the CRPG and MMO segments is for suckers.

I've a little more respect for CRPG players than to suggest they have no other hobbies and never will have. Sure there's a hardcore element, like in any hobby, but for most it's just another way of passing the time. But hell, target everyone, why not.

Quote from: The Traveller;707162Well, that's certainly your version of the home truth. Here, let me try:

the vast majority of RPG players DO NOT HAVE A FUCKING CLUE about the strengths of the TRPG medium, so why not make them aware of the fun they're missing.

Because bold is truthier.

I've been a WOW player, and a raider (i.e. focused on end-game content),  since 2006.  I've kept up with the Diablo scene and its clones during this time; I'm speaking from first-hand experience and expertise here.  They do not give a fuck.  They're here for the game, not for the environment or the story or any of that; all of that is secondary, at best, to raw gameplay and their ability to power-up their man as fast as they can.  All of the panels at Blizzcon are online at YouTube now; go watch them.  Not even the devs are that concerned anymore, including the story team because they know that it's not the thing that drives players in these media- iin terms of story, CRPG/MMO users prefer the same passive mode of consumption that they get from TV and film; they DO NOT WANT to be active agents in the narrative.  They say so, their actions say so, and their spending says so.

QuoteI've a little more respect for CRPG players than to suggest they have no other hobbies and never will have. Sure there's a hardcore element, like in any hobby, but for most it's just another way of passing the time. But hell, target everyone, why not.

You're forgetting that most people will not inconvenience themselves over what they perceive as a past-time.  To enjoy a TRPG, you have to (a) gather together a team of people, (b) schedule regular meeetings with that team and (c) master a ruleset and a paradigm that is utterly at odds with ALL other forms of competing offerings.  (Most D3 and WOW players offload a lot of the rules to the client software, to third-party addons or to outside websites or Youtube channels; these tell the player what to do, how to do it and (where relevant) where and when- all the player has to do is master the abilities that their man has and maintain situational awareness, two things that are ALREADY a challenge for even the most hardcore players.)  What a TRPG looks like to most CRPG/MMO users looks like real work and NOT fun; "20 minutes in four hours" remains an accurate description to outsiders.  TRPGs looks like broken boardgames or wargames to them, and as such are not worth their time.

(Then there's the real story-focused crowd, the folks who write fanfiction or do forum-based role-playing without rules more complex than what you see at an improv comedy club.  They to DO NOT GIVE A FUCK because they're not served by what TRPGs have to offer either, so targeting them is also a sucker's game.)

Smart marketers do not waste resources on lost causes.  Targeting the CRPG segment is a lost cause.  (Targeting the forum RPG segment is the same, as is the segment that prefers Decent over D&D.)  Figuring out what TRPGs offer, and matching it to segments that want that, is what we expect out of competent marketing; don't throw pearls before swine.

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;707174I've been a WOW player, and a raider (i.e. focused on end-game content),  since 2006.  I've kept up with the Diablo scene and its clones during this time; I'm speaking from first-hand experience and expertise here.  They do not give a fuck.  They're here for the game, not for the environment or the story or any of that; all of that is secondary, at best, to raw gameplay and their ability to power-up their man as fast as they can.

Wonder if this can partially explain why some World of Warcraft, Diablo, Everquest, Mass Effect, Halo, etc ... branded novels are kinda boring generic reads.  (ie. Story being treated as a secondary or tertiary concern).

Quote from: ggroy;707186Wonder if this can partially explain why some World of Warcraft, Diablo, Everquest, Mass Effect, Halo, etc ... branded novels are kinda boring generic reads.

Well that and good authors usually write their own stuff and don't bother with hand-me down created worlds with licensing restrictions

Quote from: Bradford C. Walker;707174I've been a WOW player, and a raider (i.e. focused on end-game content),  since 2006.  I've kept up with the Diablo scene and its clones during this time; I'm speaking from first-hand experience and expertise here.  They do not give a fuck.  They're here for the game, not for the environment or the story or any of that; all of that is secondary, at best, to raw gameplay and their ability to power-up their man as fast as they can.  All of the panels at Blizzcon are online at YouTube now; go watch them.  Not even the devs are that concerned anymore, including the story team because they know that it's not the thing that drives players in these media- iin terms of story, CRPG/MMO users prefer the same passive mode of consumption that they get from TV and film; they DO NOT WANT to be active agents in the narrative.  They say so, their actions say so, and their spending says so.

You're forgetting that most people will not inconvenience themselves over what they perceive as a past-time.  To enjoy a TRPG, you have to (a) gather together a team of people, (b) schedule regular meeetings with that team and (c) master a ruleset and a paradigm that is utterly at odds with ALL other forms of competing offerings.  (Most D3 and WOW players offload a lot of the rules to the client software, to third-party addons or to outside websites or Youtube channels; these tell the player what to do, how to do it and (where relevant) where and when- all the player has to do is master the abilities that their man has and maintain situational awareness, two things that are ALREADY a challenge for even the most hardcore players.)  What a TRPG looks like to most CRPG/MMO users looks like real work and NOT fun; "20 minutes in four hours" remains an accurate description to outsiders.  TRPGs looks like broken boardgames or wargames to them, and as such are not worth their time.

(Then there's the real story-focused crowd, the folks who write fanfiction or do forum-based role-playing without rules more complex than what you see at an improv comedy club.  They to DO NOT GIVE A FUCK because they're not served by what TRPGs have to offer either, so targeting them is also a sucker's game.)

Smart marketers do not waste resources on lost causes.  Targeting the CRPG segment is a lost cause.  (Targeting the forum RPG segment is the same, as is the segment that prefers Decent over D&D.)  Figuring out what TRPGs offer, and matching it to segments that want that, is what we expect out of competent marketing; don't throw pearls before swine.

I've been playing WoW and other MMOs since 2009, and he's right.  The vast majority of WoW's 7 million player base don't give a fuck about the story; they just want to hang with their (online) friends and kill things.  Most of the people on RP servers are there because there's less stupidity in trade chat, not because they want to RP at all.  If Blizz came out with WoW Battlegrounds for PS4 or Xbox One, they'd flock to that without hesitation.  The hardcore people you see at Blizzcon are just that, a small minority of the game, and even there they simply lap up whatever it is that Blizz puts out, just like those who eat up every last word on Call of Duty.

A lot of people who moved to other MMOs and stayed there, like Star Wars: The Old Republic and Guild Wars 2, are there because of the story.  Even then, it's the story, not the Role Playing, that keeps people there.  (Well, and the fact that to a subset of people a Bioware game = getting your toon to have sex with a companion.  I was kind of surprised by all of the chatter about that sort of thing in forums, given that I'd not played a Bioware game since Baldur's Gate 2, but apparently that is an expected feature in Bioware games.)

The math of TTRPGs scares some people off, but not as many as you might think.  After all, theorycrafting is big business in MMOs.  More than anything else, however, people are apathetic to the concept of TTRPGs.  The bright lights and big sounds of a video game are akin to watching a movie, but without having to use your imagination.  (Just have the reflexes, baby.)

Trying to target CRPG players with TTRPGs is akin to targeting moviegoers with reading books.  Some will cross over, but most are there for the big boom and flash of the latest Michael Bay epic.

Quote from: ggroy;707186Wonder if this can partially explain why some World of Warcraft, Diablo, Everquest, Mass Effect, Halo, etc ... branded novels are kinda boring generic reads.  (ie. Story being treated as a secondary or tertiary concern).

They remind me so freaking much of David Eddings' style of work, where everybody involved is a noble/king/king-in-hiding/archmage, and there's little to relate to for the common person.  Knaak's work is disparaged even by the WoW crowd, and while Christie Golden has talent, she still has to work within the bounds set by the WoW devs.

And in the upcoming expac, it seems we're deviating into comic book "Earth 2" territory where we've got time travel and alternate universes involved.  Which makes my brain hurt.

Quote from: flyerfan1991;707191And in the upcoming expac, it seems we're deviating into comic book "Earth 2" territory where we've got time travel and alternate universes involved.  Which makes my brain hurt.

WoW's story and quest text has always been high on the pcrps (pop-culture references per second) score. This is no worse than the Caverns of Time, except I bet it will have 57.3% more back to the future and futurama references.

Quote from: TristramEvans;707188Well that and good authors usually write their own stuff and don't bother with hand-me down created worlds with licensing restrictions

Is it easier (and/or possibly higher paying) for such authors to get contracts to write licensed novels, than writing their own stuff?

Quote from: therealjcm;707193WoW's story and quest text has always been high on the pcrps (pop-culture references per second) score. This is no worse than the Caverns of Time, except I bet it will have 57.3% more back to the future and futurama references.

I really don't want to think about it.  This may be the expac that makes me jump ship, because there's only so many contortions they can put a story through before it becomes sausage.

Quote from: ggroy;707195Is it easier (and/or possibly higher paying) for such authors to get contracts to write licensed novels, than writing their own stuff?

From what Ive read regarding GW's Black Library line anyways, its generally more trouble than its worth with companies demanding rewrites go keep everything within "cannon", so that when all the work is taken into account you're getting paid less.