Quote from: deadDMwalking;705086Now, if there claim is that it's better than other versions, but they allow customization to support other styles of play most similar to other styles, and yet, somehow do it better than a game designed around said style, that could potentially work, but it's a tall order to accomplish, and nothing they've released has indicated that they're anywhere close to that.  

...
And sure, people will buy it to give it a spin, but if it's not open like 3.x and is in direct competition with Pathfinder which then continues to receive Paizo support, it can't win in the market even to 4th edition levels, and we're pretty sure that 'as successful as 4th edition' is still a total failure.

Yes.  You have the AD&D/OD&D/Clone crowd.  The 3.x/PF's & 4E players.  After looking at "Next", it doesn't do ANY of those better than the current offerings.  So, marketing wise, who is their target buyer?

The majority of D&D players whose biggest concern is the presence of that logo on the cover. They can then drag many of the others along by dint of being able to accommodate those other play styles. I'm not saying that's necessarily going to work, just that it appears to be what they're shooting for.

Quote from: Arduin;705100Yes.  You have the AD&D/OD&D/Clone crowd.  The 3.x/PF's & 4E players.  After looking at "Next", it doesn't do ANY of those better than the current offerings.  So, marketing wise, who is their target buyer?

I think its an issue of forums being made up of the people most aware of the market that leads to this belief. I'm the only person in my play group who really even KNOWS there are AD&D/OD&D clones in existence. 4e is a "eh, its not bad, but not our favorite" pile for our group and Pathfinder/3.x is in the "I'll play it but won't run it" for most of us with one GM loving to run PF way too much. And 2e and earlier, we just don't like the "made up of 10 mechanics bolted together" feel.

5e might be a great fit for us. It feels lighter than both 3.x/PF/4e, while having a bit more unified of a mechanic and more customization than O/AD&D.

I mean, I'm not abandoning any current D&D to play it. I generally don't run D&D at all, and only play in it when the one GM runs PF, but 5e seems to fit what I want out of a fantasy RPG, and is an easy sell to players.

Quote from: Bobloblah;705102The majority of D&D players whose biggest concern is the presence of that logo on the cover.

That has been proven false when 4e flopped and Paizo picked up the majority of "D&D" players and moved into the #1 slot.

IF that is their strat, they are doomed from the get go.

Quote from: Arduin;705100Yes.  You have the AD&D/OD&D/Clone crowd.  The 3.x/PF's & 4E players.  After looking at "Next", it doesn't do ANY of those better than the current offerings.  So, marketing wise, who is their target buyer?

Their angle is make a recognizably D&D game that focuses on being easy to setup and play. Along with offering a variety of interesting and fun settings and adventures.

My feeling is that they intend to grow their audience like any other game with with a known brand name. That because of their marketing reach and brand name they will get a sizable number of novice gamers along with more Moms and Dads looking for that D&D game for their kids. A problem with the latter with 3.X and 4e is that those two games had involved mechanics. And in 4e case didn't resembled classic D&D at all. A problem I personally witnessed at my FLGS several times.

The above is then combined with a friendly attitude to fans of other editions. The hope is that three elements will combined to propel the D&D brand back to #1.

In short they going back to the basics.

Quote from: Arduin;705117That has been proven false when 4e flopped and Paizo picked up the majority of "D&D" players and moved into the #1 slot.

IF that is their strat, they are doomed from the get go.

Keep guzzling that kool-aid.

Quote from: estar;705119In short they going back to the basics.

That doesn't answer it as it doesn't do anything better than the games currently out (except be new and different).  We already know that doesn't cut it.

You have to address EACH of the demo's listed below SEPARATELY.

Quote from: Sommerjon;705120Keep guzzling that kool-aid.

LOL!  I see that you are STILL babbling incoherently...

D&D Next: The Compromise Edition (TM)

Nobody's Favorite - but nobody's LEAST favorite.

Quote from: deadDMwalking;705124D&D Next: The Compromise Edition (TM)

Nobody's Favorite - but nobody's LEAST favorite.

FTW!

Quote from: Arduin;705117That has been proven false when 4e flopped and Paizo picked up the majority of "D&D" players and moved into the #1 slot.

IF that is their strat, they are doomed from the get go.

Your are correct that Pathfinder succeeded in picking up the major of "D&D" gamers. That is existing D&D gamers at the time of the introduction of 4.0.  

However tabletop roleplaying is a niche hobby. The Dungeons & Dragon name is far more recognizable than Paizo or Pathfinder. Inside the hobby Paizo has a great and well deserved reputation. Outside not so much.

Dungeons & Dragons in contrast is known far wider due not only because of the two fad eras of AD&D 1st and 3.X but also for several successful computer games and also for being a general pop terms for tabletop roleplaying.

The D&D mechanics that much of the above is tagged with is classic D&D. Fighter, Thief, Magic-user, Cleric, vancian magic, and the rest. A game sporting the D&D name and uses something similar to the classic mechanics will be able to take advantage of  D&D Name.

The biggest issues of D&D Next won't be that it will fail. Even a half-assed effort with a game recognizable D&D would be a blockbuster compared to every other competitor except for Paizo and perhaps Fantasy Flight Games.

The biggest issue will that it won't be successful enough. That the sales although substantial by Tabletop RPG standards won't be enough for Hasbro/Wizards to justify spending money on. And D&D gets shelved.

In the near term, the shelving of D&D will keep tabletop RPG as a niche.

The wild card is the impact of the internet and computing in general. We don't know how gaming is going to look in 5 to 10 years. What synergies will come into play and whether these will benefit Tabletop Roleplaying as we know it.

Personally I think the advent of tablet computers and smartphones is a very good thing for tabletop in the long run. By favorably impacting the ability of people to get together in game and lowering the amount of work needed to run or setup a game. I think Tabletop will be a "niche" but a larger niche of a much larger face to face gaming hobby.

Quote from: Arduin;705121That doesn't answer it as it doesn't do anything better than the games currently out (except be new and different).  We already know that doesn't cut it.

The Next rules are a lite system compared to 3.X or 4e. Granted we don't have the finished books yet but if you lay out Pathfinder, D&D 4e, and D&D Next out in front of a novice gamer, or a Mom/Dad old AD&D gamer. Which one would they likely pick?

My guess it would be Next. This based some personal observation from parents and older gamers watching my Swords & Wizardry game at the game store. More than once I get the comment that "The game you run is a lot more like the one I remember from way back compared to..." And the person points or mentions the 4e or Pathfinder games being run.

And please don't read this as "Rob thinks old games are better." While I think Wizards definitely needed a lighter system if they want to have the bigger sales. I also think that even novices are far more sophisticated than back in the day. That you are going to need some customization, and some tactical options to keep the interesting going.

The question will be did they get it just right?

And to answer deadDMWalking quip. Yeah there is some advantage to avoiding to be everybody least favorite rules especially among the variety of D&D editions that are currently out there.

Quote from: estar;705136The Next rules are a lite system compared to 3.X or 4e. Granted we don't have the finished books yet but if you lay out Pathfinder, D&D 4e, and D&D Next out in front of a novice gamer, or a Mom/Dad old AD&D gamer. Which one would they likely pick?

ANSWER to the Demo's listed.  THOSE are the money makers WotC is after.  It isn't complex.  :rolleyes:

Its really easy:

Its a simpler version of D&D that still includes some customization of characters and it will be HIGHLY VISIBLE.

The other "simple" versions of D&D aren't highly visible. Most people outside of those of us who are on forums all the time don't actually realize there are clones of pre-3e floating around.

You don't get high numbers based on forums. You have to be both highly visible and offer something that other highly visible games aren't: A simpler version of D&D.

Quote from: estar;705131Your are correct that Pathfinder succeeded in picking up the major of "D&D" gamers. That is existing D&D gamers at the time of the introduction of 4.0.  

However tabletop roleplaying is a niche hobby. The Dungeons & Dragon name is far more recognizable than Paizo or Pathfinder. Inside the hobby Paizo has a great and well deserved reputation. Outside not so much.

Dungeons & Dragons in contrast is known far wider due not only because of the two fad eras of AD&D 1st and 3.X but also for several successful computer games and also for being a general pop terms for tabletop roleplaying.

They might not be alone in that for long:

Pathfinder Online (in development)
https://goblinworks.com/