I was on the revision committee and design by committee isn't a fair description.  It was pretty much entirely design by Lord Miller and Yammahopper the whole way through.  Which explains why it looks so much like a houseruled and cleaned up RM2 and most of RMSS was jetisoned.  Oh well, I'm not really bitter.  I think the changes are mostly well thought out and implemented.  We sure hammered the thing back and forth a lot.  Most of the stuff I wanted in would have been as options in the side bars anyhow.

However the size change mechanism is very different from anything previously in RM.  Rolemaster never did scale up very well and the mechanism is an attempt to change that.  Instead of giving bigger things more and more damage and hit points they get wound multipliers and damage multipliers instead.  I'd have gone with more hit points and damage multipliers myself but the more hit points would have been generated by applying a multiplier so it's pretty much a matter of preference and easy enough to implement if you prefer big monsters to have lots of hit points.

Anyhow, while it basically turned me off of Rolemaster, I think it is a more stable and functional version of the game.  Personally I liked RMSS for the gonzo brokenness so it's not really my bag.  I don't like the super weak first level either but I can't really argue with the point that a big first level really isn't much different than starting at third or fifth level.  Heck in my "standard system without the rolemaster" game I just put in a talent that lets you start at second or third level.

What the revised edition gives Rolemaster is a stable platform for future development.  I think that if they get some solid support behind it, over time, it will become the prefered version of the game.  Unless of course they continue to favour the bastardized and forgettable HARP system over RM and thus promote a continued fracture in the fan base.

Quote from: Benoist;678886Oh RM criticals are harsh, yeah, don't get me wrong.

"Strike through brain makes life difficult for the unfortunate fool.  He takes 1d3 rounds to expire in agony."

QuoteI played the game too and love it, for the record.

I just think the player's "D&D expectation" in this instance was dumb and could have gotten him killed in D&D as well.

Probably, but then it would have been more death by attrition.

JG

Quote from: James Gillen;679234"Strike through brain makes life difficult for the unfortunate fool.  He takes 1d3 rounds to expire in agony."



Probably, but then it would have been more death by attrition.

JG

It's irrelevant in this case: the point is, whether the death might have been due to a critical hit or HP attrition, the guy charging the orcs "because D&D therefore autowin with my 5th level fighter" was dumb in the first place.

Quote from: Benoist;679238It's irrelevant in this case: the point is, whether the death might have been due to a critical hit or HP attrition, the guy charging the orcs "because D&D therefore autowin with my 5th level fighter" was dumb in the first place.

Then the real question is, how much D&D had he played?

JG

Ah, good old Rolemaster, where a person attempting to dash would end up going at walking pace or less half the time.

"You run!... and fall over, get up, RUN! fall over..."

You didn't explain the combat rules to a new guy. You have to show them all those tables from 1 to 150 and 1 to 20 and all those criticals. You can't fail to explain the rules to someone and then mock them for not knowing them.

Quote from: David Johansen;679224I was on the revision committee and design by committee isn't a fair description.  It was pretty much entirely design by Lord Miller and Yammahopper the whole way through.  Which explains why it looks so much like a houseruled and cleaned up RM2 and most of RMSS was jetisoned.  Oh well, I'm not really bitter.  I think the changes are mostly well thought out and implemented.  We sure hammered the thing back and forth a lot.  Most of the stuff I wanted in would have been as options in the side bars anyhow.

However the size change mechanism is very different from anything previously in RM.  Rolemaster never did scale up very well and the mechanism is an attempt to change that.  Instead of giving bigger things more and more damage and hit points they get wound multipliers and damage multipliers instead.  I'd have gone with more hit points and damage multipliers myself but the more hit points would have been generated by applying a multiplier so it's pretty much a matter of preference and easy enough to implement if you prefer big monsters to have lots of hit points.

Anyhow, while it basically turned me off of Rolemaster, I think it is a more stable and functional version of the game.  Personally I liked RMSS for the gonzo brokenness so it's not really my bag.  I don't like the super weak first level either but I can't really argue with the point that a big first level really isn't much different than starting at third or fifth level.  Heck in my "standard system without the rolemaster" game I just put in a talent that lets you start at second or third level.

What the revised edition gives Rolemaster is a stable platform for future development.  I think that if they get some solid support behind it, over time, it will become the prefered version of the game.  Unless of course they continue to favour the bastardized and forgettable HARP system over RM and thus promote a continued fracture in the fan base.

As a huge fan of 'origional rolemaster' (The old charcater law, arms law, spell law; etc) may I ask what the fundemental differences are with the new version?

I somehow missed it was being made.

Quote from: Bill;679298As a huge fan of 'origional rolemaster' (The old charcater law, arms law, spell law; etc) may I ask what the fundemental differences are with the new version?

I somehow missed it was being made.

As another fan (well of 2e but I Believe they're much the same) I'd like to second this question!

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;679266Ah, good old Rolemaster, where a person attempting to dash would end up going at walking pace or less half the time.

"You run!... and fall over, get up, RUN! fall over..."

You didn't explain the combat rules to a new guy. You have to show them all those tables from 1 to 150 and 1 to 20 and all those criticals. You can't fail to explain the rules to someone and then mock them for not knowing them.

Apparently that's half of the fun.

JG

Quote from: Bill;679298As a huge fan of 'origional rolemaster' (The old charcater law, arms law, spell law; etc) may I ask what the fundemental differences are with the new version?

I somehow missed it was being made.

The playtest files are available for free on the ICE forums.

Okay, first off there aren't any huge fundamental changes though it is a redesign from the very bottom.  I think the biggest changes are the relationship of size with hitpoints, the skill list, turn sequence, and the substructure.

With the size thing, RM always had damage multipliers for big monsters but now there are multipliers for hitpoints too and the sizes are on a tiny, small, medium, large huge scale.  This also largely replaces the hit dice by size and varying body development progression rates used in previous editions.

The skill categories from RMSS are gone and the redundancy is reduced but the cluster skills serve a similar purpose.  For example chinese cooking and french cooking could both be from the cooking cluster and be different skills without requiring an extra line on a table to differentiate them.  Some skills like quick draw have become talents where there doesn't seem to be much point in improving and developing them.

There's three stat bonuses per skill which are totalled, not averaged, spells and languages are bought as skills so there's no rolling for portions of spell lists.  If you have rank eight you can cast eighth level spells.  Just like in RMSS.

The turn sequence still uses percentage activity but now allows multiple attacks per round and evens out some issues.  Percentage activity relates directly to movement now.  There is a snap and deliberate phase but these relate directly to the percentage activity.  On the whole it's much more clear though it was actually the single most contentious issue in the entire design and probably lead to more bad feelings than even the debate over size or skill categories and training packages.

The substructure is the underlying logic behind things like profession skill costs.  The original professions were created by making a list of the skills and a list of the same number of skill costs and then prioritizing each profession relative to each skill so that only one profession has each cost for a given skill.  The new system is based on a points value.  The races are also built on points but not the ridiculous pro-rated discount system from RMSS which even I think was terrible.

There's a bazillion little things.  Training packages are gone.  The stat bonus table has been reworked and smoothed out to make stats matter a bit more.  Stat generation is by points or rolling three sets of percentiles for each stat (I think we settled on three) discarding the low one and making the high one the potential stat.  Shields have a skill instead of a static bonus.  The attack and critical tables have all been completely reworked and rewritten, because the new owners want to distance themselves from any past IP commitments but they are revised and a little more structured in their design than they were.  "Stunned No Parry" is gone and a new Staggered effect is in.  As Rasyr can tell you the RM2 Arms Law tables were actually tweaked every time they were reprinted so it's very common for two books to produce different results.  

Anyhow, it's been over a year since I flamed out and quit the process and I'm not as mad as I was though I'm still doing my own designs and utterly soured on working with existing systems.  I have no intention of ever being involved in writing for something I don't own outright again.  What a waste of time.  Even so, if you like Rolemaster but thought a few things were a bit wonky or could use a rework you might really like this edition.  If you liked RMSS and wanted the game to evolve more towards GURPS and farther from D&D you probably won't like it.  If you think they needed to get rid of the tables and use d20s I can only point at you and laugh mockingly.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;679266Ah, good old Rolemaster, where a person attempting to dash would end up going at walking pace or less half the time.

"You run!... and fall over, get up, RUN! fall over..."

They did fix it in one of the Companions. Good luck finding which one

QuoteYou didn't explain the combat rules to a new guy. You have to show them all those tables from 1 to 150 and 1 to 20 and all those criticals. You can't fail to explain the rules to someone and then mock them for not knowing them.

I think I have to agree. Seems like a communication failure to me.

A more important question is, did he come to the next session?

On the inverse, in my last campaign my players were freaking out because they were fighting demons, not realizing that in Rolemaster there are first level demons.  These demons were class II and IIIs and the highest level one they fought was seventh level.

Of course that ignorance set them up to think the horrible lovecraftian monstrosity looming behind the seventh level demonic sorcerer was something I was actually throwing at them.  It was the bas relief on the wall.

Quote from: David Johansen;680050The playtest files are available for free on the ICE forums.

Okay, first off there aren't any huge fundamental changes though it is a redesign from the very bottom.  I think the biggest changes are the relationship of size with hitpoints, the skill list, turn sequence, and the substructure.

With the size thing, RM always had damage multipliers for big monsters but now there are multipliers for hitpoints too and the sizes are on a tiny, small, medium, large huge scale.  This also largely replaces the hit dice by size and varying body development progression rates used in previous editions.

The skill categories from RMSS are gone and the redundancy is reduced but the cluster skills serve a similar purpose.  For example chinese cooking and french cooking could both be from the cooking cluster and be different skills without requiring an extra line on a table to differentiate them.  Some skills like quick draw have become talents where there doesn't seem to be much point in improving and developing them.

There's three stat bonuses per skill which are totalled, not averaged, spells and languages are bought as skills so there's no rolling for portions of spell lists.  If you have rank eight you can cast eighth level spells.  Just like in RMSS.

The turn sequence still uses percentage activity but now allows multiple attacks per round and evens out some issues.  Percentage activity relates directly to movement now.  There is a snap and deliberate phase but these relate directly to the percentage activity.  On the whole it's much more clear though it was actually the single most contentious issue in the entire design and probably lead to more bad feelings than even the debate over size or skill categories and training packages.

The substructure is the underlying logic behind things like profession skill costs.  The original professions were created by making a list of the skills and a list of the same number of skill costs and then prioritizing each profession relative to each skill so that only one profession has each cost for a given skill.  The new system is based on a points value.  The races are also built on points but not the ridiculous pro-rated discount system from RMSS which even I think was terrible.

There's a bazillion little things.  Training packages are gone.  The stat bonus table has been reworked and smoothed out to make stats matter a bit more.  Stat generation is by points or rolling three sets of percentiles for each stat (I think we settled on three) discarding the low one and making the high one the potential stat.  Shields have a skill instead of a static bonus.  The attack and critical tables have all been completely reworked and rewritten, because the new owners want to distance themselves from any past IP commitments but they are revised and a little more structured in their design than they were.  "Stunned No Parry" is gone and a new Staggered effect is in.  As Rasyr can tell you the RM2 Arms Law tables were actually tweaked every time they were reprinted so it's very common for two books to produce different results.  

Anyhow, it's been over a year since I flamed out and quit the process and I'm not as mad as I was though I'm still doing my own designs and utterly soured on working with existing systems.  I have no intention of ever being involved in writing for something I don't own outright again.  What a waste of time.  Even so, if you like Rolemaster but thought a few things were a bit wonky or could use a rework you might really like this edition.  If you liked RMSS and wanted the game to evolve more towards GURPS and farther from D&D you probably won't like it.  If you think they needed to get rid of the tables and use d20s I can only point at you and laugh mockingly.

Thanks, I will take a closer look; it sounds good.