Some might enjoy this story:
Years ago I played a ton of rolemaster, and our group essentially changed over from dnd to rolemaster because it seemed very cool.
One player who was very familiar with dnd, joined the rolemaster game much later than everyone else.
So, he knew nothing about rolemaster when he sat down to play.
His fighter was level 5, and he was thrust into a battle with many orcs.
The veteran dnd player scoffed and said "Orcs? Ha!" and charged them with his two handed sword.
His fighter took a arrow to the neck and dropped, crippled or dead.
The player was in shock.
It was priceless.
I think it's a pretty good example of D&D "Brain Damage" caused by false expectations.
GURPS and Rolemaster both suffer from this a fair bit. I had a player in GURPS Fantasy recently die from a punch to the eye from a tipsy middle aged man at arms. I told him not to take a 7 strength on a fighter but he wouldn't listen. "It's more like a 3 Strength and 1d4 hit points" I said, but nooooo.
Half the fun of Rolemaster is watching D&D players go though shock and horror. They tend to avoid combat for several sessions after the first instance.
That sounds more like "Didn't bother to explain the combat rules to the newb, had a laugh".
I guess if I'm playing D&D and a RM player comes in and doesn't know anything about Vancian casting but his m/u goes down under a wave of enemies despite him moaning and groaning about essences and he should have been able to add his DB and so on, that's a sign of brain damage caused by RM?
I mean, I don't care, I like RM fine; it sounds more to me like nobody said to the guy "Just a minute, Jim, here's how combat works" or took him thru a couple of exemplary rounds, etc.
My first exposure to it came in a one on one, so we quickly discovered it wasn't the same as d&d and when we rolled it out to a campaign with 5 or 6 players we were able to come at it without too many d&d preconceptions.
In fact, i'd recommend that practice with most games - try it 1 on 1 first.
Quote from: thedungeondelver;678851That sounds more like "Didn't bother to explain the combat rules to the newb, had a laugh".
I guess if I'm playing D&D and a RM player comes in and doesn't know anything about Vancian casting but his m/u goes down under a wave of enemies despite him moaning and groaning about essences and he should have been able to add his DB and so on, that's a sign of brain damage caused by RM?
I mean, I don't care, I like RM fine; it sounds more to me like nobody said to the guy "Just a minute, Jim, here's how combat works" or took him thru a couple of exemplary rounds, etc.
The player was warned that combat was dangerous, and that caution was advisable.
When I said he knew nothing, I meant he had no experience with rolmaster.
He did not listen.
I think a group of orcs could take out a 5th level fighter in AD&D. Depends on their number, weaponry, if leader types are present, and who, if any, is on the battle field to coordinate their efforts (otherwise they're just dumb like big bullies and don't get "tak tiks").
Quote from: Benoist;678880I think a group of orcs could take out a 5th level fighter in AD&D. Depends on their number, weaponry, if leader types are present, and who, if any, is on the battle field to coordinate their efforts (otherwise they're just dumb like big bullies and don't get "tak tiks").
A group of orcs, yes.
A single arrow, I doubt it.
Those RM criticals are
harsh....btw I had similar things happen to PCs because players overestimated DB and didn't quite understand that taking a few CPs and maybe an A critical = not so bad, taking a D or E critical because your Fighter is unarmored = BAD.
Quote from: Benoist;678880I think a group of orcs could take out a 5th level fighter in AD&D. Depends on their number, weaponry, if leader types are present, and who, if any, is on the battle field to coordinate their efforts (otherwise they're just dumb like big bullies and don't get "tak tiks").
Numbers certainly are a huge factor.
How powefull a fighter is depends a lot on the groups playstyle.
One level 5 fighter has a 4 AC, and 20hp.
Another might have a negative 1 AC and 40 hp, and fancy magic items like cloak of displacement.
Oh RM criticals are harsh, yeah, don't get me wrong.
I played the game too and love it, for the record.
I just think the player's "D&D expectation" in this instance was dumb and could have gotten him killed in D&D as well.
Quote from: The Ent;678882A group of orcs, yes.
A single arrow, I doubt it.
Those RM criticals are harsh.
...btw I had similar things happen to PCs because players overestimated DB and didn't quite understand that taking a few CPs and maybe an A critical = not so bad, taking a D or E critical because your Fighter is unarmored = BAD.
Unarmored fighter in rolemaster...ouch. I did see one player with a duelist type fighter that depended on adrenal defense. It seemed to work fairly well but I don't know it armor is always the betetr option.
Shields are actually useful in rolemaster too.
Agreed, Benoist!
Getting surrounded cuts a guy's HP down right Quick. It might take a couple rounds, but it'd happen.
Quote from: Bill;678889Unarmored fighter in rolemaster...ouch. I did see one player with a duelist type fighter that depended on adrenal defense. It seemed to work fairly well but I don't know it armor is always the betetr option.
Shields are actually useful in rolemaster too.
Yeah.
One of my players basically misunderstood the whole "unarmored people Are harder to hit" to hit table thing. He thought it'd mean his character would
actually be hard to hit (to be fair, stuff with low OB like weak orcs etc did have a hard time hitting his character, but that's kinda unimportant...).
Quote from: The Ent;678890Agreed, Benoist!
Getting surrounded cuts a guy's HP down right Quick. It might take a couple rounds, but it'd happen.
The key elements of a level 5 fighter vs orcs:
AC: do the orcs need a 20 to hit him?
Damage: Can the fighter one hit them?
Numbers: 10 orcs? 20? 30-300? :)
Rob Kuntz had some 4HD Umbra orcs in the Original Bottle City. Kind of demon spawns of orcs if you will. Appearances can be deceiving in the dungeon...
Quote from: Benoist;678894Rob Kuntz had some 4HD Umbra orcs in the original bottle city. Kind demon spawns of orcs if you will. Appearances can be deceiving in the dungeon...
In 1E dnd I am fond of sprinkling a few half orc fighters among the orcs in a tribe. Can be quite a surprise.
Quote from: Bill;678893The key elements of a level 5 fighter vs orcs:
AC: do the orcs need a 20 to hit him?
Damage: Can the fighter one hit them?
Numbers: 10 orcs? 20? 30-300? :)
Yep, that's important. AC 0 fighter vs 10 orcs? Fighter wins. But AC 4 fighter vs 20-30? Hm...getting dubious...
Quote from: The Ent;678892Yeah.
One of my players basically misunderstood the whole "unarmored people Are harder to hit" to hit table thing. He thought it'd mean his character would actually be hard to hit (to be fair, stuff with low OB like weak orcs etc did have a hard time hitting his character, but that's kinda unimportant...).
AT 9 or 10 has been by far the most popular AT at my table over the years. Gives decent protection, doesn't fuck up missile attacks by much and most importantly doesn't make you break your legs when you fail a move maneuver, because the MM penalty is quite easily overcome at a decent development point cost by most classes.
Quote from: Benoist;678886Oh RM criticals are harsh, yeah, don't get me wrong.
I played the game too and love it, for the record.
I just think the player's "D&D expectation" in this instance was dumb and could have gotten him killed in D&D as well.
TRVTH.
Also: my current group going through the Castle Delve campaign slew a Balrog/Type VI with six 3rd level characters (yes - badly played by me) but twice last game they were nearly killed, once by a pack of 21 giant wasps, another by 6 huge spiders.
Quote from: One Horse Town;678901AT 9 or 10 has been by far the most popular AT at my table over the years. Gives decent protection, doesn't fuck up missile attacks by much and most importantly doesn't make you break your legs when you fail a move maneuver, because the MM penalty is quite easily overcome at a decent development point cost by most classes.
I tended to go for hard leather (AT 9-10) myself for much the same reason.
It did make battles against big stuff like trolls etc a bit dicey mind. But heavy armor makes your character suck too much at M&M.
Quote from: One Horse Town;678901AT 9 or 10 has been by far the most popular AT at my table over the years. Gives decent protection, doesn't fuck up missile attacks by much and most importantly doesn't make you break your legs when you fail a move maneuver, because the MM penalty is quite easily overcome at a decent development point cost by most classes.
AT 10 FTW!! My rolemaster fighter, Lothar of the Hill People, Wears rigid leather,carries a large shield, takes as many ads that increase DB as much as possible, and puts a fair amount of OB potential into DB in most circumstances.
The result is that it takes a lot longer to finish off a foe but I seldom get hit except by opponents I really shouldn't tangle with anyway.
I did play a Magus once who wore full soft leather (AT 8). He was quite a beast in combat for a spell user iirc. Sadly only got him to 5th level before that game ended.
Fun times...Shit, now i want to start a new RM game.
Is anyone excited about the public beta of Rolemaster? I was disappointed - it looks like the same game, more or less, that I had in the 80s. I still have that game.
I'd like to see something that takes the cool, distinctive things about Rolemaster (attack charts, criticals, everything's a skill) and does something new with it.
Quote from: fuseboy;678914Is anyone excited about the public beta of Rolemaster? I was disappointed - it looks like the same game, more or less, that I had in the 80s. I still have that game.
I'd like to see something that takes the cool, distinctive things about Rolemaster (attack charts, criticals, everything's a skill) and does something new with it.
I stopped being excited at game designers taking on the name of a popular game I actually like to fuck with it and come up with something completely different quite a few years ago. Original RM for the win.
Quote from: Benoist;678915I stopped being excited at game designers taking on the name of a popular game I actually like to fuck with it and come up with something completely different quite a few years ago. Original RM for the win.
Same here. I don't want Rolemaster changed, but I would love to have a practical pc/tablet app to roll the dice, crits, and show results.
Quote from: fuseboy;678914Is anyone excited about the public beta of Rolemaster?
Nope. Design by committee. Sadly the talent pool responsible for the grand old game is no longer very good, Nicholas Caldwell apart.
Quote from: Benoist;678915I stopped being excited at game designers taking on the name of a popular game I actually like to fuck with it and come up with something completely different quite a few years ago. Original RM for the win.
Yeah, I know what you mean.
Not sure RM 2e's ever been improved upon, later eds went nuts complexity vise.
D&D expectations can work for you as we'll. My only Rolemaster experience was a couple of sessions based in the Bree sourcebook. Not knowing better my first level party set up an ambush for the 3 trolls (would never have tried this in D&D).
In any case we got insanely lucky with some arrow crits and prevailed with only 2 fatalities. Of course next week the party was wiped out by a random encounter with a bear so there you go :-)
Yeah three relatively inexperienced adventurers get wasted by an angry bear...it can happen.
So can three relatively inexperienced adventurers successfully ambushing a troll.
You roll a unbelievably lucky critical roll and can wildly exceed expectations, and it feels real, because weirder shit happens in real life every day. At the same time, when unbelievably lucky results don't happen, things kinda end up the way you think they would.
Rolemaster was definitely a whole lotta fun.
Quote from: Bill;678844His fighter took a arrow to the neck and dropped, crippled or dead.
The player was in shock.
It was priceless.
There's a herb that'll fix that, right?...
Quote from: Bill;678918Same here. I don't want Rolemaster changed, but I would love to have a practical pc/tablet app to roll the dice, crits, and show results.
Exactly what I would like. I ran the heck out of RM back when IC was making all that great Middle Earth stuff, with, at times, up to 12 players. I just don't want to deal with the mass pile of charts, even though those criticals were so much fun.
I was on the revision committee and design by committee isn't a fair description. It was pretty much entirely design by Lord Miller and Yammahopper the whole way through. Which explains why it looks so much like a houseruled and cleaned up RM2 and most of RMSS was jetisoned. Oh well, I'm not really bitter. I think the changes are mostly well thought out and implemented. We sure hammered the thing back and forth a lot. Most of the stuff I wanted in would have been as options in the side bars anyhow.
However the size change mechanism is very different from anything previously in RM. Rolemaster never did scale up very well and the mechanism is an attempt to change that. Instead of giving bigger things more and more damage and hit points they get wound multipliers and damage multipliers instead. I'd have gone with more hit points and damage multipliers myself but the more hit points would have been generated by applying a multiplier so it's pretty much a matter of preference and easy enough to implement if you prefer big monsters to have lots of hit points.
Anyhow, while it basically turned me off of Rolemaster, I think it is a more stable and functional version of the game. Personally I liked RMSS for the gonzo brokenness so it's not really my bag. I don't like the super weak first level either but I can't really argue with the point that a big first level really isn't much different than starting at third or fifth level. Heck in my "standard system without the rolemaster" game I just put in a talent that lets you start at second or third level.
What the revised edition gives Rolemaster is a stable platform for future development. I think that if they get some solid support behind it, over time, it will become the prefered version of the game. Unless of course they continue to favour the bastardized and forgettable HARP system over RM and thus promote a continued fracture in the fan base.
Quote from: Benoist;678886Oh RM criticals are harsh, yeah, don't get me wrong.
"Strike through brain makes life difficult for the unfortunate fool. He takes 1d3 rounds to expire in agony."
QuoteI played the game too and love it, for the record.
I just think the player's "D&D expectation" in this instance was dumb and could have gotten him killed in D&D as well.
Probably, but then it would have been more death by attrition.
JG
Quote from: James Gillen;679234"Strike through brain makes life difficult for the unfortunate fool. He takes 1d3 rounds to expire in agony."
Probably, but then it would have been more death by attrition.
JG
It's irrelevant in this case: the point is, whether the death might have been due to a critical hit or HP attrition, the guy charging the orcs "because D&D therefore autowin with my 5th level fighter" was dumb in the first place.
Quote from: Benoist;679238It's irrelevant in this case: the point is, whether the death might have been due to a critical hit or HP attrition, the guy charging the orcs "because D&D therefore autowin with my 5th level fighter" was dumb in the first place.
Then the real question is, how much
D&D had he played?
JG
Ah, good old Rolemaster, where a person attempting to dash would end up going at walking pace or less half the time.
"You run!... and fall over, get up, RUN! fall over..."
You didn't explain the combat rules to a new guy. You have to show them all those tables from 1 to 150 and 1 to 20 and all those criticals. You can't fail to explain the rules to someone and then mock them for not knowing them.
Quote from: David Johansen;679224I was on the revision committee and design by committee isn't a fair description. It was pretty much entirely design by Lord Miller and Yammahopper the whole way through. Which explains why it looks so much like a houseruled and cleaned up RM2 and most of RMSS was jetisoned. Oh well, I'm not really bitter. I think the changes are mostly well thought out and implemented. We sure hammered the thing back and forth a lot. Most of the stuff I wanted in would have been as options in the side bars anyhow.
However the size change mechanism is very different from anything previously in RM. Rolemaster never did scale up very well and the mechanism is an attempt to change that. Instead of giving bigger things more and more damage and hit points they get wound multipliers and damage multipliers instead. I'd have gone with more hit points and damage multipliers myself but the more hit points would have been generated by applying a multiplier so it's pretty much a matter of preference and easy enough to implement if you prefer big monsters to have lots of hit points.
Anyhow, while it basically turned me off of Rolemaster, I think it is a more stable and functional version of the game. Personally I liked RMSS for the gonzo brokenness so it's not really my bag. I don't like the super weak first level either but I can't really argue with the point that a big first level really isn't much different than starting at third or fifth level. Heck in my "standard system without the rolemaster" game I just put in a talent that lets you start at second or third level.
What the revised edition gives Rolemaster is a stable platform for future development. I think that if they get some solid support behind it, over time, it will become the prefered version of the game. Unless of course they continue to favour the bastardized and forgettable HARP system over RM and thus promote a continued fracture in the fan base.
As a huge fan of 'origional rolemaster' (The old charcater law, arms law, spell law; etc) may I ask what the fundemental differences are with the new version?
I somehow missed it was being made.
Quote from: Bill;679298As a huge fan of 'origional rolemaster' (The old charcater law, arms law, spell law; etc) may I ask what the fundemental differences are with the new version?
I somehow missed it was being made.
As another fan (well of 2e but I Believe they're much the same) I'd like to second this question! :)
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;679266Ah, good old Rolemaster, where a person attempting to dash would end up going at walking pace or less half the time.
"You run!... and fall over, get up, RUN! fall over..."
You didn't explain the combat rules to a new guy. You have to show them all those tables from 1 to 150 and 1 to 20 and all those criticals. You can't fail to explain the rules to someone and then mock them for not knowing them.
Apparently that's half of the fun. ;)
JG
Quote from: Bill;679298As a huge fan of 'origional rolemaster' (The old charcater law, arms law, spell law; etc) may I ask what the fundemental differences are with the new version?
I somehow missed it was being made.
The playtest files are available for free on the ICE forums.
Okay, first off there aren't any huge fundamental changes though it is a redesign from the very bottom. I think the biggest changes are the relationship of size with hitpoints, the skill list, turn sequence, and the substructure.
With the size thing, RM always had damage multipliers for big monsters but now there are multipliers for hitpoints too and the sizes are on a tiny, small, medium, large huge scale. This also largely replaces the hit dice by size and varying body development progression rates used in previous editions.
The skill categories from RMSS are gone and the redundancy is reduced but the cluster skills serve a similar purpose. For example chinese cooking and french cooking could both be from the cooking cluster and be different skills without requiring an extra line on a table to differentiate them. Some skills like quick draw have become talents where there doesn't seem to be much point in improving and developing them.
There's three stat bonuses per skill which are totalled, not averaged, spells and languages are bought as skills so there's no rolling for portions of spell lists. If you have rank eight you can cast eighth level spells. Just like in RMSS.
The turn sequence still uses percentage activity but now allows multiple attacks per round and evens out some issues. Percentage activity relates directly to movement now. There is a snap and deliberate phase but these relate directly to the percentage activity. On the whole it's much more clear though it was actually the single most contentious issue in the entire design and probably lead to more bad feelings than even the debate over size or skill categories and training packages.
The substructure is the underlying logic behind things like profession skill costs. The original professions were created by making a list of the skills and a list of the same number of skill costs and then prioritizing each profession relative to each skill so that only one profession has each cost for a given skill. The new system is based on a points value. The races are also built on points but not the ridiculous pro-rated discount system from RMSS which even I think was terrible.
There's a bazillion little things. Training packages are gone. The stat bonus table has been reworked and smoothed out to make stats matter a bit more. Stat generation is by points or rolling three sets of percentiles for each stat (I think we settled on three) discarding the low one and making the high one the potential stat. Shields have a skill instead of a static bonus. The attack and critical tables have all been completely reworked and rewritten, because the new owners want to distance themselves from any past IP commitments but they are revised and a little more structured in their design than they were. "Stunned No Parry" is gone and a new Staggered effect is in. As Rasyr can tell you the RM2 Arms Law tables were actually tweaked every time they were reprinted so it's very common for two books to produce different results.
Anyhow, it's been over a year since I flamed out and quit the process and I'm not as mad as I was though I'm still doing my own designs and utterly soured on working with existing systems. I have no intention of ever being involved in writing for something I don't own outright again. What a waste of time. Even so, if you like Rolemaster but thought a few things were a bit wonky or could use a rework you might really like this edition. If you liked RMSS and wanted the game to evolve more towards GURPS and farther from D&D you probably won't like it. If you think they needed to get rid of the tables and use d20s I can only point at you and laugh mockingly.
Quote from: Kyle Aaron;679266Ah, good old Rolemaster, where a person attempting to dash would end up going at walking pace or less half the time.
"You run!... and fall over, get up, RUN! fall over..."
They did fix it in one of the Companions. Good luck finding which one :D
QuoteYou didn't explain the combat rules to a new guy. You have to show them all those tables from 1 to 150 and 1 to 20 and all those criticals. You can't fail to explain the rules to someone and then mock them for not knowing them.
I think I have to agree. Seems like a communication failure to me.
A more important question is, did he come to the next session?
On the inverse, in my last campaign my players were freaking out because they were fighting demons, not realizing that in Rolemaster there are first level demons. These demons were class II and IIIs and the highest level one they fought was seventh level.
Of course that ignorance set them up to think the horrible lovecraftian monstrosity looming behind the seventh level demonic sorcerer was something I was actually throwing at them. It was the bas relief on the wall.
Quote from: David Johansen;680050The playtest files are available for free on the ICE forums.
Okay, first off there aren't any huge fundamental changes though it is a redesign from the very bottom. I think the biggest changes are the relationship of size with hitpoints, the skill list, turn sequence, and the substructure.
With the size thing, RM always had damage multipliers for big monsters but now there are multipliers for hitpoints too and the sizes are on a tiny, small, medium, large huge scale. This also largely replaces the hit dice by size and varying body development progression rates used in previous editions.
The skill categories from RMSS are gone and the redundancy is reduced but the cluster skills serve a similar purpose. For example chinese cooking and french cooking could both be from the cooking cluster and be different skills without requiring an extra line on a table to differentiate them. Some skills like quick draw have become talents where there doesn't seem to be much point in improving and developing them.
There's three stat bonuses per skill which are totalled, not averaged, spells and languages are bought as skills so there's no rolling for portions of spell lists. If you have rank eight you can cast eighth level spells. Just like in RMSS.
The turn sequence still uses percentage activity but now allows multiple attacks per round and evens out some issues. Percentage activity relates directly to movement now. There is a snap and deliberate phase but these relate directly to the percentage activity. On the whole it's much more clear though it was actually the single most contentious issue in the entire design and probably lead to more bad feelings than even the debate over size or skill categories and training packages.
The substructure is the underlying logic behind things like profession skill costs. The original professions were created by making a list of the skills and a list of the same number of skill costs and then prioritizing each profession relative to each skill so that only one profession has each cost for a given skill. The new system is based on a points value. The races are also built on points but not the ridiculous pro-rated discount system from RMSS which even I think was terrible.
There's a bazillion little things. Training packages are gone. The stat bonus table has been reworked and smoothed out to make stats matter a bit more. Stat generation is by points or rolling three sets of percentiles for each stat (I think we settled on three) discarding the low one and making the high one the potential stat. Shields have a skill instead of a static bonus. The attack and critical tables have all been completely reworked and rewritten, because the new owners want to distance themselves from any past IP commitments but they are revised and a little more structured in their design than they were. "Stunned No Parry" is gone and a new Staggered effect is in. As Rasyr can tell you the RM2 Arms Law tables were actually tweaked every time they were reprinted so it's very common for two books to produce different results.
Anyhow, it's been over a year since I flamed out and quit the process and I'm not as mad as I was though I'm still doing my own designs and utterly soured on working with existing systems. I have no intention of ever being involved in writing for something I don't own outright again. What a waste of time. Even so, if you like Rolemaster but thought a few things were a bit wonky or could use a rework you might really like this edition. If you liked RMSS and wanted the game to evolve more towards GURPS and farther from D&D you probably won't like it. If you think they needed to get rid of the tables and use d20s I can only point at you and laugh mockingly.
Thanks, I will take a closer look; it sounds good.