Quote from: Bill;674386You are gming dnd (version might not matter here)

Player of a cleric that worships a Sun god encounters an area of total supernatural darkness (An actual darkness spell, but the character may not know exactly what it is)

The character says "As a cleric if the sun god, I try to banish the darkness!!"
The player asks the gm "Can I expend my turn undead power to try and banish the darkness?"


What would you do, as a gm, in this situation?

"You hold aloft your holy symbol and recite aloud from the Book of Nerts.

Nerts to the Darkness!  Nerts to it, by Jove!

Yet nothing seems to happen."

Quote from: Bill;674396In this case rules would be bent. The player was asking to essentially 'use up' his ability to tun undead for a time to attempt to dispel the darkness.

He did not have any spells remaining, so Light was not an easy option.

Quote from: Bill;674400I was the player, and the gm said 'no' with little explanation. The gm did not want the darkness dispelled because it would have made it easier to defeat his villain.

If I had been the gm, I would have allowed it; my thoughts are the same as yours. Not remotely game breaking, fits the theme of the character, and would have been 'paid for' by no turning undead until the gm restored that power.

I wouldn't actually allow it, since it was a Darkness spell.

Yet I would let you think and attempt whatever you like.  We'd roleplay and have some fun, but the bottom line is this:  You can waste as much time on that Darkness as you want, but until you cast Light on it it's nerts to you.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;674411I do not think the GM should have done it to protect his villain, but I do think doing it to maintain consistent application of the rules is okay.

This is where I'm at.

We had this happen once not long ago - Lareth the Beautiful in 1st Ed.  Lareth got the short end as the players managed to deal with the moathouse guards pretty well, but as far as they know there is STILL a Continual Darkness spell cast just inside the hidden moathouse entrance.

Quote from: Exploderwizard;674521Dispel Magic is a 3rd level spell. Per the rules it takes the expenditure of that resource to dispel magical darkness. In addition, in some editions, if the caster of darkness is significantly higher level, even that might not do the trick.

Question for Bill: was your cleric high enough level to cast dispel magic?

If not, I have to agree with the DM ruling, not for the reason stated but because it isn't fair to able to trade a resource you have (a turning attempt) for one that the character is not yet entitled to.

I think I was lower than level 5, so I could not cast dispel magic.

However, I think the actual impact of the action and the logic of it, are more important.

It's only unfair if someone is negatively impacted by it, right?

Quote from: Blackhand;674532"You hold aloft your holy symbol and recite aloud from the Book of Nerts.

Nerts to the Darkness!  Nerts to it, by Jove!

Yet nothing seems to happen."





I wouldn't actually allow it, since it was a Darkness spell.

Yet I would let you think and attempt whatever you like.  We'd roleplay and have some fun, but the bottom line is this:  You can waste as much time on that Darkness as you want, but until you cast Light on it it's nerts to you.



This is where I'm at.

We had this happen once not long ago - Lareth the Beautiful in 1st Ed.  Lareth got the short end as the players managed to deal with the moathouse guards pretty well, but as far as they know there is STILL a Continual Darkness spell cast just inside the hidden moathouse entrance.

I don't think light spells are the only meathods in the cosmos to counter darkness spells. But your logic seems sound.

Quote from: Bill;674537I think I was lower than level 5, so I could not cast dispel magic.

However, I think the actual impact of the action and the logic of it, are more important.

It's only unfair if someone is negatively impacted by it, right?

Would you have a problem with a 3rd level pyromaniac magic user who wants to trade in a magic missile slot for a fireball because its more in line with his theme?

This doesn't mean that the DM wasn't a tool for giving that explanation.

Oh yeah, btw, I'd be cool with the DM just saying "nope, doesn't work." I can see how some will find it problematic.

It is interesting to see the split on this question and how different GMs would handle it.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;674546It is interesting to see the split on this question and how different GMs would handle it.

This appears to be mainly a split between "To RAW or not to RAW"

Quote from: Exploderwizard;674539Would you have a problem with a 3rd level pyromaniac magic user who wants to trade in a magic missile slot for a fireball because its more in line with his theme?

This doesn't mean that the DM wasn't a tool for giving that explanation.

Two reasons I would not be likely to allow that:

Theme of 'I blow stuff up with fire' is not a theme I would support

Losing turning ability for an indefinate time period is probably way better than a magic missile spell. Unless there are no undead in the area

Quote from: Bill;674418In this example, the player requested to 'lose' his turn undead power to 'pay' for the dispel.

Were you in an area where you were particularly likely to encounter undead? Because if not, being able to turn undead is much less valuable as a "trade".

Concept seems reasonable, though. As a GM, I'd say "yes" in an undead-infested area, and "no" if I knew there weren't any. "Maybe, roll some dice" if there was a way I could add some later on...

Quote from: Ladybird;674586Were you in an area where you were particularly likely to encounter undead? Because if not, being able to turn undead is much less valuable as a "trade".

Concept seems reasonable, though. As a GM, I'd say "yes" in an undead-infested area, and "no" if I knew there weren't any. "Maybe, roll some dice" if there was a way I could add some later on...

I can't recall if there were undead in the area, but I agree it could be 'unbalanced'

I am not sure it has to be a fair trade though if the actual effect on the game is negligable.

Quote from: Ladybird;674586Were you in an area where you were particularly likely to encounter undead? Because if not, being able to turn undead is much less valuable as a "trade".

Concept seems reasonable, though. As a GM, I'd say "yes" in an undead-infested area, and "no" if I knew there weren't any. "Maybe, roll some dice" if there was a way I could add some later on...

Careful. Clever players will use your reaction to the request as a detect undead spell.

Quote from: Bill;674400The gm did not want the darkness dispelled because it would have made it easier to defeat his villain.

Did the referee tell you this directly, or is that your butthurt talking?

Quote from: Bill;674386You are gming dnd (version might not matter here)

Player of a cleric that worships a Sun god encounters an area of total supernatural darkness (An actual darkness spell, but the character may not know exactly what it is)

The character says "As a cleric if the sun god, I try to banish the darkness!!"
The player asks the gm "Can I expend my turn undead power to try and banish the darkness?"


What would you do, as a gm, in this situation?

My answer is: Clerics Without Spells. I explicitly eliminate or reduce clerical spell casting that works like M-U spellcasting and use a test of faith instead, with Turn Undead (actually, the reaction roll, which is the same thing in OD&D) as the basic mechanic.

You need to roll a Good reaction or better when asking for a miracle. Roll 2d6 and add double the cleric's level, subtract double the spell level equivalent to the miracle asked for. On 9+, the miracle succeeds. On a 2, God is angry; no more miracles until you've atoned for your impiety. I might modify this for multiple miracle requests in a single turn or on the same day, but there's no "expend your turn undead ability in trade"; you just get to do that, period.

For dispelling the darkness, I might actually judge it a little differently. Light is a 1st level spell, Continual Light is 3rd level, and Dispel Evil is 5th level. I'd roll once, but check for all three results and give you the best one that succeeds: so, you might get a flickering little torchlight, a bright globe equivalent to sunlight, or the thick darkness will be permanently swept away, depending on how good the roll is.

Quote from: Black Vulmea;674604Did the referee tell you this directly, or is that your butthurt talking?

Fair question.

It was obvious, but not stated.

But I admit I was dissapointed at his call.

So my butthurt served to at least make it memorable.

Quote from: Bill;674612Fair question.

It was obvious, but not stated.

But I admit I was dissapointed at his call.

So my butthurt served to at least make it memorable.

I can understand you mate, I had some bad calls from GMs I played under myself lately. The crowning one was that flanking issue in WFRP.